(Topic ID: 203700)

deeproot Pinball thread


By pin2d

2 years ago



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Topic index (key posts)

10 key posts have been marked in this topic

Post #111 Firsthand information from the Magic Girl programmer. Posted by applejuice (2 years ago)

Post #3026 RAZA promotional video Posted by vireland (7 months ago)

Post #5771 First RAZA gameplay video Posted by ZMeny (26 days ago)

Post #5874 RAZA video with more audible game sounds Posted by zaphX (26 days ago)

Post #5926 First RAZA video with successful ramp completion Posted by zaphX (25 days ago)

Post #5967 Another RAZA gameplay video Posted by flynnibus (25 days ago)

Post #6050 Closeup pictures of key playfield features Posted by Potatoloco (24 days ago)

Post #6133 Video of display animations Posted by LateCenturyMods (24 days ago)

Post #6329 Summary of Robert Mueller's interview Posted by jeffspinballpalace (21 days ago)

Post #6724 RAZA Gameplay video Posted by DS_Nadine (15 days ago)


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#4291 4 months ago

What does "one of our 2D games" mean? .... wouldn't this imply they are planning to create 3D games?

Or 4D!!

So RAZA is a 2D video game right? ... well since a pinball machine is in fact a 3D game

2 weeks later
#4510 3 months ago
Quoted from spfxted:

2D games.....

Indeed last time I checked pinball is a 3D game. Taking pinball to the next dimension? ... how ironic Lol

#4623 3 months ago

Whoops wrong thread Lol ...

#4678 3 months ago
Quoted from branlon8:

I‘d say a thorough discussion of the Pinside Top 100 is the best way now to keep this thread afloat.

If the discussion is now Pinside top 100, would someone please explain why there is a pitch and bat game in the pinball top 100? (or in the list at all, it isn't even like pinball ) .

Lost any credibility it may have once had from me now, has just become a complete joke! Lol

#4685 3 months ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

Since it's pinsiders who vote, it's pinsiders that loose credibility.
Since you're a pinsider on pinside you just lost all your credibility from yourself.

I never came for the top 100 at all though, and like others have said I could never see the point in reviewing, as I've little to compare really, and would likely be overly biased anyway... so yeah probably not much pinball reviewing credibility to start with . Many of the top games from here and IPDB I don't think are that great myself, that is personal preference though isn't it. I haven't done a single review, and not planning to.

Fact is Pitch and Bat isn't even pinball though, was simply my point. Lol

#4703 3 months ago
Quoted from fosaisu:

Whether or not it's good for consumers, it's a smart business decision for pinball manufacturers to disengage from forums and stick to controlled media outlets. Doesn't mean you don't monitor the forums and respond to specific complaints offline if necessary. But the imbalance in the risk/reward of actively engaging seems pretty obvious.

Never get into an argument with a moron. They'll bring you down to their level, then beat you with experience.

Engagement may be good, but no manufacturer would be wise "engaging" here from the looks of things.

1 week later
#4752 3 months ago
Quoted from Richthofen:

Not this again. Every playfield dimples. Steel balls are harder than a wooden playfield.

As with hardness testing of materials in engineering, it is the Size of the dimple that is important. There will always be "dimples", but a very broad range of severity.

The biggest one I measured on my ACDC when I still had it was very close to 5mm, and I don't care what anyone thinks, that is Not acceptable nor is it "normal" (except for some modern and Stern) . A joke, is what it is.

Nothing over about 2mm, as you find on older games, yeah that is normal. Steve... you, of all people, should know better than to call Massive dimpling "normal".

1 month later
#5067 64 days ago
Quoted from RCA1:

I'm probably the most sarcastic person I know, coming from a long line of sarcastic folk. But Damn!, that's some real sarcasm there.

... and about this he is NOT being sarcastic!

2 weeks later
#5168 44 days ago
Quoted from Tomass:

Better check your math

??

3rd to 7th inclusive certainly does equate to 5 days...

#5169 44 days ago

In 2020 the 3rd to 7th of November is Tuesday to Saturday?

1 week later
#5270 35 days ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Next week. Lolololololol.................suck it!
Yet you won't allow me to double up my original beer bet because you are a hater and STERN apologist and Supreme lover!!!
Come on CRAZY. That vault is going up your ............... so grab your ankles LOL
Don't disappear on me big boy. Announced and delivered before yr end.

Hmmmm... so, is somebody suggesting Deeproot is baking an Alien, for pinball Brothers??

Lol

1 week later
#5355 28 days ago
Quoted from RA77:

Sorry,
I do not consider a CRT wedged into the back of a pinball cabinet AR
AR is a lot Deeper than 99 Tech

It is as augmented reality as it gets, seeing something else than what really exists in the physical space. Augmented. Reality. Simple or complicated. Same.

Acknowledging or not doesn't change the fact it is a decades old concept that many are only just discovering existed long ago.

#5362 28 days ago

From reading the statement is seems like this RAZA "prototype" will not be missing any gameplay or playfield feature mech "innovations", it sounds like robert is not classifying these aspects as "innovations" but merely what pinball already should/has had. Stuff that cost cutting by others has taken away.

I think the things missing that He calls the innovations will be alot of stuff inside, like operator features, servicability, playfield slide out/hang device, Augmented reality, VR, cabinet design.

System/Platform innovations, nothing missing that might impact on the ability to properly location test a complete, fully functional playfield/game in the public show setting. This scenario the bits/innovations that may be not revealed I guess may have little to nil impact on the ability to successfully fully test the Complete (with all the fantastic mechs) RAZA playfield prototype.

I dont think the insides of these games will be seen. Probably just in a standard generic cab, for testing the RAZA game on it's own.

Just my guess, based on the trickled statments.

#5366 28 days ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

I love watching you guys parse this stuff out like it’s the Rosetta Stone. Reminds me of the days when our greatest minds were tearing apart every letter of the latest “stern of the Union” to decipher if a ghostbusters code update was coming this week.

Don't really care Lol ... just an observation/interpretation of the info. Without the staple negative bias.

#5409 27 days ago
Quoted from Rondogg:

Perfect timing. Let's them control the launch with hand selected guests and TPF 2 days later for a reveal to the unwashed masses.

So then, 25th to 29th of March is going to be the "5 days of Deeproot" ....

#5410 27 days ago

It's still solid state ..... errr, I mean AR. The essence of the definition has not changed lol

Two decades ago you got to see it as "news" . Yeah.

#5412 27 days ago
Quoted from Spraynard:

Houston Arcade Expo*

No, TPF.

March. Launch.

#5415 27 days ago
Quoted from homebrood:

Not sure I like that left ramp coming almost down to the left sling, would rather some targets over there or a kickout hole and the ramp moved back a little but otherwise looks great!

I think that is a "drop point" (ramp end) above playfield level ... staging to the flipper but not via inlane.

#5429 27 days ago
Quoted from frolic:

All those millions of dollars invested have to be built into any price of the game. The game is going to have significant BOM, R&D costs, overhead and still have meat on the bone for resellers and distributors. And it's built in Texas. How is that going to be sub $5k?

Seems to me that this game could be simply treated as a loss or break even by deeproot (without caring), considering the levels of funding that seem to be available. Setting up a larger company in this way, for the longer larger run, you would never expect the first product to pay for setup costs, not by a Very long way.

Imagine if they Do sell RAZA and one or two other initial titles for lets say, $4,495 (as a "release special").... just to show they mean business, and to get plenty of examples of their proud creations out in the world, more rapidly... ?

If something like that happened the landscape could morph dramatically, and Very rapidly....

#5432 27 days ago
Quoted from jawjaw:

Game looks very promising to me. The screen looks fine to me. Guys complain if it's too big limiting backglass artwork or to square limiting how much info can be displayed. It really comes down to how it is used. No way this is priced below $5000. That's just ridiculous in today's market for a game built up from scratch. I bet pricing will be similar to AP. Somewhere between Stern pro and premium.

Jelly Bean Jar competition, closest to the final announced RRP for a NIB RAZA game.

I rekon $4,990

#5440 27 days ago
Quoted from frolic:

I might have thought this possible if they launched within their original timeline, but there's a whole additional year of cash burn.
Yeah, I get that they've got big funding, but at some point that has to turn into something.

I'm sure there is a disposable budget or write-off to some degree. Of course RM would surely be aiming for profitability, eventually. Seems to all fit into a long term plan/outlook. Of course as you say it has to turn into something, the vision seems to be rivaling stern. Imagine if the first three releases were all sold basically at cost price level for the rest of 2020? ..... Shockwaves!!

o-din !! .... Surely, a Sledgehammer gif please!

#5444 27 days ago
Quoted from TreyBo69:

Looks like a lot of 3D printed parts. I wonder if those are final are just for the prototypes. I wonder how they would hold up in action.

I wondered about the overhanging plastic in front of the "Atomic Shop", easily broken?.... but I guess if it is PETG it will take it.

#5447 27 days ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

Let's do a quick back of the napkin business case with those kind of numbers.
Assume that they've come up with some crazy cheap unit cost, including assembly labor and all the below the line numbers, and that unit cost to deeproot is $1500. Let's say they sell them at $4500 just to make it easy. That gives them $3k margin per unit.
If Robert's claims of $750k a month are correct, and we pretend they've only been in business for the first 10 months of 2019, ignoring all the time before, that's $7.5M in cost. At a fantastic $3k margin, they would have to sell 2500 games to break even on 2019 alone. If you add in all the time they've spent before 2019......
Do I think they've actually gotten unit cost down to something like $1500? Probably not.

I'm not convinced RM cares about getting any of that money back, to be honest. Carry on from day zero attitude? . Write it off to passion, or whatever.

Who knows really, so many possible perspectives, mostly unknowns. We're all just speculating.

#5448 27 days ago
Quoted from pipes:

Are all 250 patents in there?

I would not think so. They seem to be just showing off/testing the Game, Playfield/Layout, Display setup, Code.

Cabinet aspects/mechs, internals, system/boardset, access, servicability, look .... all could relate to patents not being shown with these prototypes. "Most innovations will not be on show at Houston".

#5450 27 days ago
Quoted from pipes:

I love pinball and all but I can't for the life of me understand why anyone would want to build them. It just seems like a complete nightmare.

I guess if he is successful, his games will exist for alot longer than he will. Maybe he just wants to leave a mark. A Pinball mark

#5540 27 days ago
Quoted from o-din:

I'm really looking forward to the demonstration where they take a sledgehammer to this thing.

Although that won't be for a while yet since it seems DR is using Mirco playfields for these prototypes. Hammer test on them would still be interesting though!

DRs own playfields in Production games, it seems.

#5545 27 days ago
Quoted from CLEllison:

AH, now that I've gotten on a pc and able to see more clearly, RAZA's "main toy" is a very much a recycled World Cup Soccer 94 moving target and if I'm seeing correctly in that same area are roll overs? Another WCS94 recycled idea. That's actually pretty disappointing.

What you seem to think is the "main toy" I didn't even notice was talked about at all in the interview re. playfield features.

It's worth a read....

#5555 27 days ago
Quoted from mrgone:

Yup. Let’s review.
Ramps, ok. Some cool stuff there but nothing mind blowing.
Some sculpted figures,
Nothing new.
A moving target. Nothing new.
A toy on a spring, see Star Wars,
A Ferris wheel, see cyclone and hurricane.
Maybe some magnets,see every other jpop game.
Nice art, very reminiscent of Big Bang bar as far as color palette goes.
Cool theme, I guess. So, in a nut shell.
Nothing we haven’t seen before.
Nothing mind blowing or really innovative.
What will really sell this? Price, and ruleset.
If it shoots well it could be a fun game.
But I’m not overly impressed with what I’ve seen yet.
But it’s all about how it plays.
We will wait and see.

There is info in the interview... which your post suggests you have not read.

#5565 27 days ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

He certainly did...
..."some"...
...but then reading through here sometimes I ask myself why I've not yet deleted my account and killed myself.
Srsly what I read here (simplified):
A: "We'll present you 3 green triangles!"
B: "How many?"
C: "What shape?"
D: "What color?"

Solid Gold!! ... Thank you!!!

(not saying the triangles are gold, I'm not lazy or illiterate, I did bother to read that they are green! Lol)

#5570 27 days ago
Quoted from Multiballmaniac1:

Deeproot gonna slay the competition I just have a hunch.

The new dominant manufacturer if their claims and directive have any substance, that seems obvious. Not hard either to do better than the poultry stern build quality/value nowdays with their blown out price for what you get, that is for sure.

I think their initial price point will be the same or less than Haggis Celts ..... so that is <$5250

#5576 27 days ago
Quoted from TreyBo69:

It looks like a scoop with a drop target in front. That's innovation!

TNA has a scoop with Three drops in front of it! .... Old hat stuff right there, now

#5584 27 days ago
Quoted from master_of_chaos:

Drop the frame
And as i wrote: "something like that" . The street prize for the one i have mentioned is 850 € . Way too expensive for pinball.

Not all of them are such a rediculous price, depends on supply I guess......

https://m.alibaba.com/product/60842585826/Factory-direct-ultra-wide-advertising-display.html?s=p

2019-11-15-09-37-44.png

2019-11-15-09-37-25.png

... and I'm sure DR could source them even cheaper than I can, while still having adequate quality/durability.

#5605 27 days ago
Quoted from thedarkknight77:

I think this game looks great and it should do well at $5500-$6000. Pricing it any lower would just be foolish and I want a Deep root to survive. I do think they should consider discounted direct pricing, for a limited time at release to get people on the band wagon. Maybe you launch at $5500 for a limited time, then go to $5999. They could easily sell 1000 units direct to consumer in a week if they price this right.

That may be the determining factor for price point.... what is the capacity per week of these illusive production lines?

Getting 1000 orders per week is great, except if you can only make 5 per week.

If the plan is big then one could assume that hundreds per week will go out the factory door, rather than dozens per week. That obviously means several lines, and being in the same ballpark as stern.

The price point then becomes about demand and capacity I guess... the question is, what is their maximum planned production capacity. Fairly significant it sounds like.

If the factory is geared to build 500 per week, hypothetically, and demand is 100 per week.... the price point may be higher than it aught to be in order to get the Deeproot machine rolling, to gain momentum.

#5646 27 days ago

I think it is a really smart move by DR, to show the GAME without any focus being on the cabinet artwork. Nothing to distract people from what the game inside is about, no multi layered reviews of "the game" (no art layer). It is there to do what is intended; Let the public play the Game and review it for what it is, for it to be tested in the real world environment, recieve feedback .... all without people confusing things by letting the external look get mixed up with the gameplay and game experience. Also this way things only improve, allowing the game to be discovered a second time, but with the full shebang including the under bonnet innovations that complete their unit. It is perfectly clear always, going forward, that "this copy of RAZA we have here is a Prototype!" (even from 50 yards away).

Only what Williams used to do, just that they didn't have the global "social" media monster to deal with. Features would be deleted or altered, and no kickbacks or rage to deal with.

So here is prototype field testing in the 21st century, done very well I think. Now the big release is yet to come. and things can only get better once those placeholders are replaced. I would bet the art is complete, but not being shown yet when it doesn't need to. Like when the latest top secret luxury sport car is being factory tested on public roads (pre-release) and is covered with the wavy checker patern to conceal the contours, from competitors, and a surprise for customers at the Big release.

Smart thinking

#5648 27 days ago
Quoted from Manic:

Either that... or the cab/backglass art just wasn't ready/finalized in time

Entirely possible. I just get the feeling that this game would be cabinet art free regardles of the readiness of the art, or not. There is no licencing to deal with, so should be no issue with "finalised in time". I think we will see the other titles go through a similar prototype testing method.... no real art. For the reasons above.

#5654 27 days ago
Quoted from russdx:

I'm also think the bg/cab art is just a place holder.

Not "think". DR stated (Emphasised!) this is Not the final art!.

i.e. B/G and Cab is all Placeholder. Until March.

Just that nobody has read the memo.

#5660 27 days ago
Quoted from jimwe5t:

This is hilarious: a new Trojan horse rolls into town with some fawning all over it. Something smells, as DR investors might be being scammed (DR built an unneeded auditorium, instead of building and selling even their first machine - do like everyone else does and show at a convention and save investor money for building up inventories of something that actually brings in revenue - pinball machines). Some people are giving them kudos for JPop work done years ago when he had Zidware. Sure they haven’t taken pinball money yet, so everyone is giving DR a pass, but what about the poor investors??? Their money is being spent like no tomorrow $7.5 million a month and this is all they have to show for years of work??? A machine that DR claims is not the finished version and almost everything on the machine is going to change? Wow, are we expected to believe the Trojan horse is a great gift? Looking at this, causes great concerns. Hope the investors don’t lose out on their hard earned investment monies, because if this is all they have at this point in the business cycle that began 2016/17 and I we’re an investor, I’d be worried big time.

Jeez that must be some giant sized carrot you got stuck up in there! .... you might want to get that looked at hey?

#5686 27 days ago

I give RM full credit for saying it like it is, about the pinball industry. Bravo!

Don't get why everyone wants to have a big old sook about it. I say good on you DR, for wanting to do something about it!.

No need to get all antsy. I guess the truth hurts though, for some.

I hope Deeproot sends a Stern message for the complacent manufacturer/s. A lasting one that makes them think about pulling thier act together and stop being cheapskates, if they want to survive.

#5689 26 days ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

IMO they're going to need at least the 6 - 7 months they've allowed themselves to get this production....

According to Mr Pinball, who says he just recieved an update from DR, "they will start building games in a few Months".

I guess only time will tell.

17
#5693 26 days ago
Quoted from Tomass:

I think the large lcd's look out of place on new games. I like the look of this screen mire than those. Some of the best pins have a dmd dor cryin out loud. Don't understand why so many people seem hung up on the screen. Look's like it's proportions suit a pinball machine more than what other's are currently offering.

Here, here!

Big screens on pinballs are soooo over-rated. Such a pointless waste of resourses imho.

I'd much rather see that value not wasted and put into More stuff where it actually means something.... on the playfield! . A playfield mounted screen maybe, a-la Alien... or some other interesting fun mech.

Besides I'd much prefer a great looking backglass.

#5766 26 days ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

Well, that's still more than 10x more then what a normal Stern LCD would cost.
(Or 100x in terms of Star Wars Home.)

Are you seriously suggesting stern pay US$5 per LCD?

Lol

People assuming these displays are some kind of proprietary specially built thing?? ... Poppycock. It is a Common Garden Variety commercial LCD marquee. Cost difference? ... seems to cost less, if anything. Research is your friend!

#5773 26 days ago
Quoted from dts:

That's the problem with high expectations. Robert should have under-promised and over-delivered, then most would be ecstatic for a new Jpop machine, despite the history. Instead, we dissect the prototype and find that it looks strangely familiar. I'd probably buy one based on what I'm seeing, but then my expectations were pretty low with all the hubris blowing around. The best people often say nothing because they don't need to.

The show's barely started. Already DR has under-promised and over-delivered as far as I care.

Most just seem to lazy or time poor to have read or taken notice of what the promise actually was...

"show an incomplete prototype game that can compete with other manufacturers current offerings"

Seems to fit that description perfectly, and more! ... even with the bland placeholder art!

#5775 26 days ago
Quoted from Tomass:

That's a problem if you ask me. No is sure really. No one actually addressed the issue and said it was or was not resolved. Just silence while still sending out games.

You mean failed to acknoweledge there is an issue at all! ... no different to unacceptable levels of dimpling (#Craterface)....

stern: "Pooling/rippling is normal *#%ts, stop bitching & get used to it!"

#5777 26 days ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

Lol back.
If you take the prices there "yes".
Obviously Stern would not buy from there, but so won't Deeproot.
If you compare something you'd have to do it on the same basis. Tgat'd mean in this case that the numbers are wrong but it's getting compareable proportinally.
Btw. how is 150 / 10 = 5?

Cause you typoed a 1 in there. $50/10 = 5

It is $150 for the huge version that will not fit in a backbox.

I wouldn't be so sure about where stern or DR do or do not source their displays. But, I assure you neither of these displays are expensive, nor is there any significant difference in their cost. Certainly not 5 fold, let alone the 10 fold you are suggesting.

If they Were 5 fold (even double) the cost vs a 16:9 display then DR would simply not be using them.

Anyway, even 150, a tenth is 15 bucks.... still dreaming thinking they pay that kind of price.

$40-$50 sounds reasonable... if 150 for ultra wide was true (which it isn't) that would still only be 3x. Not 10x.

#5780 26 days ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

As someone that decided wich car models get a "go" for production:
Not the ones with too much custom/ low volume parts, because because of that low volume that part'll become significally more expensive.
And a 16:9 display with the same display area will be significantly cheaper then this format deeproot does.
Significant can also mean if you compare 1$ to 3$ as well as 5$ to 15$ or 15$ to 45$.
In the end it doesn't seem to be big enough of a cost increase for deeproot to care; wich is a good thing like I already said, since this thing stands out and makes the games unique.
Thats worth a dollar.

Should just point out that this ultra wide form factor is not "low volume" nor "custom".... far from it, very far. Commercially, around different parts of the world, these are used Alot! , and readily available.

#5788 26 days ago
Quoted from wesman:

I have to hope this format is a placeholder. You can't view opponent's scores very well from afar, though not many games present that very well either.[quoted image]

I thought the same... but ...

On the other hand, this score looks like it is still displayed the same or larger than an early Stern electronics or Bally. Also definately larger than many current offerings... including some of those with an overblown 27" display (which would be Far more expensive than what they have chosen here).

The score is displayed clearly and consistantly, which is what I consider very important.

#5789 26 days ago
Quoted from John_I:

So zero interest in any game Jpop had a hand in... My question is what is the playfield made out of? They hit it with a hammer on video yet?

Read a few posts back, maybe ....

#5799 26 days ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

I'm not overly excited (mostly with the color palette though) it's generally structured as I thought it'd be, with a "DMD" area when there's no FMV running and gerneral infos on the side.
And while I like that, at the moment it looks a bit lost there on the right, while I have no clue what that stuff on the left is supposed to be.

I agree. It would have bee nice to see a bit more symetry, rather than all the scores always on the right of the machine....

#5800 26 days ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

Why's JD at home streaming JP? :-\
Yeah please let'em do a proper video.

Stern .... "may not like that!"

#5805 26 days ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

So does this. Half the game is placeholders.

The ball doesent roll on the external of the cabinet ....

#5824 26 days ago

I like that the rotating obstruction only has the one peg, rather than two...

#5857 26 days ago
Quoted from NoQuarters:

So they took this game to a show to get feedback ?
Looking at the videos etc I think feedback isn't going to be good. They may have folks tell them to start over. Maybe that was the plan all along.
If they say they have to start over they can fart around for a couple more years and still produce zero. Something isn't right with the big picture.
Where did they set up in the show ? Whats with the hotel chairs jammed around the machine ? If you can't set up a proper booth to showcase your product, what are you doing back at the shop.
Doesn't look very promising for a game that has had a couple years work off a previous design. Not a great presentation.

I doubt DR will be very interested in what myself and other armchair pinside reviewers will post from some short, questionable, shaky mobile phone vids. Why would they be? , they are generally Unreliable "reviews".... I'd say they are more so there to get feedback from Actual Players, and the machine. Testing. Not "virtual" spectator reviews. I am sure the reviews from each place (pinside/real world) would vary quite a bit, one way or another. One person here posting played it, they said the lighting made the video colours all screwed up, and the game was fun and looked Great in real life, but nobody pays attention. Or selective reading.

What is the odd mindset that they are there trying to "showcase a product"? .... no, that is in March mate. This is not the product, remember? . They just have them sitting there on the sidelines for people to play, low key. Why would they be keen to provide Widespread coverage of them testing their Prototype, with the bugs and all that naturally come with this phase of the final product development?

I'm sure there will be booths, fanfare, promotion, good videos (by DR), and production games to inspect...... before or during the TPF in March. Of Production games. When it Matters.

The feedback gathered from real players visiting Houston will be quite valuable for finishing the game off well, unlike the armchair feedback from pinside.

#5866 26 days ago
Quoted from HighProtein:

No real pinball company has ever required "real player" data from pinball shows while in development phase to complete a pinball machine. In house data has been just enough historically. Test locations are mostly an afterthought. Most prospective buyers for Deeproot games are on pinside. Pinside opinions matter alot. Also, its not armchairing anything, we must be impressed, we must get something to inspire us to devert money from many other used and new pinball buying options. Pinside is free data mining from its core customer base, so they're welcome for the intel from here hahaha.

Oh, really? .... wtf did B/W bother to produce runs of "prototype games" full of bugs to send out to selected locations prior to final production machines being produced?

They did not have, or need, pinside. Neither does Deeproot.

Most prospective DR buyers are Not on pinside, according to DR. Sorry.

So No, pinside opinions (at this proto stage) do not matter much, if at all.

Pinside... is data mining of mostly misguided rubbish assumptions, looking through the thread. They would be wise not to waste their time I would think.

#5870 26 days ago
Quoted from NoQuarters:

Yes - I wonder how much actual data they collect at a show and how useful it is. Maybe what they are really interested in is firsthand reaction to what they have. A lot of stuff in pinball can't be quantified - could be that stuff is what is being observed. Question is Will they do anything with what they learn.

As RM stated, a variety of conditions that can not be tested "in house" ... shipping/transport, hundereds of consecutive plays by "green" players, etc. ... as well as the invaluable random public real world feedback/reaction (not pinside).

#5872 26 days ago
Quoted from NoQuarters:

You are absolutely correct razorsedge. - I'm just making the observation they will get feedback at the show and I don't think it's going to be super positive. I would still say though this is their product and they are showcasing it to some degree .. This is a couple years effort piled on top of work that was done previously by jpop. They can call this unveiling what they want. They will get their real world testing and numbers. Let's see what they do with it.

You're right, it is showing Something of the "product", to a degree. But it is Not the final product hence wisely not pushing to Showcase it. I guess they want it to be Clear that this is Not what you will get as a Production Game. Makes sense when you need to test, but want it to be clearly Not a "release" . It is what is is, a restricted public "showing" or Test of their prototype.

A bit the other way, I'd say they want what the few internet people Do see to be limited, and an Obvious Prototype, hence the smart move of having no real art.... just the indelable image of those ghastly placeholders!

Things can only get better...

#5884 25 days ago
Quoted from screaminr:

Just my opinion but if they're doing a pin based on a movie or TV series I want to see clips from the movie or TV show . To me a great pinball is a whole audio-visual , physical package . If the Hobbit and Batman didn't have such well-integrated video clips they wouldn't be rated as high as they are . If pinball is just hitting a ball with flippers , why bother with any dmd , TV screen , why bother having a shaking motor or RGB lighting or a integrated topper or a shaker motor all these things add up to a better Pinball experience .

I rekon the "video scenes" will do just fine placed on the centre third of their display in the correct aspect ratio. The display is both tall enough, and hi res enough, to well provide all that is ever needed for pinball movie cut scenes. Well for me at least anyway.

There are fantastic games with displays that use a mere 4096 orange shaded dots, and far smaller display size... which have amazing entertaining display animations/scenes.

If hobbit is only good because of the 27" movie on the backbox, then I guess it mustn't be a very good pinball game? ... or maybe could go to the movies?

Thank you DR for having a decent size backglass area!!!

#5895 25 days ago

So we have one player feels the right ramp is good, even though you cant just flick it from a trap (reminds me of Frankie or Baywatch tower, love it when you make those tougher shots) ... and one player feels the right ramp is bad, although that seems to be just because it cant be made from a trap?

Anyway I guess that makes the right ramp 50/50 so far.

Personally I like satisfying staged ramps that can't be fully made from the trap. Forces players to Play Better, on the fly from the inlane or playfield, in order to be fully rewarded. Once you stop fixating on trapping, that ball Flies around there if you choose to keep it alive! = super satisfying

#5897 25 days ago
Quoted from screaminr:

The Hobbit is a fantastic game with 31 modes which are all very different and unique , the videos are just the iceing on the cake . I can't believe anyone would argue well done video clips take away from the experience and not add to it . Lord of the Rings is a great game but tell me it wouldn't be more attractive with clips from the movie instead of orange dots trying to replicate clips from the movie .

Personal preferences I guess. I'm not interested in paying the extra, when that doesn't really add anything for me. Stern sized screen is the max useful, for myself. As I described, I'd much prefer a decent backglass and a good pinball game.

I thought you said hobbit wouldn't rate as high without the video? .... does that mean it has to take up the whole backbox for that? or is 17" okay?

Plenty of games with comparatively small displays rate even higher.?

I've never argued about video clips being bad, myself. They certainly Do add, alot, I think. I was just saying I don't really like the full backbox displays. Alien is very good, but I still dont think the display in the backbox needed to be that big to have the same effect.

#5902 25 days ago
Quoted from Potatoloco:

I’d tend to agree. The problem is, there’s nothing that feeds the left inlane in order to create this on the fly shot. I couldn’t find anyway to pre-plan for that shot. There’s no existing shots to create the speed needed for the flipper to make that shot. At this point the only hope is your nudge goes into the inlane and the ramp happens to be lit for something to make it worthwhile going for.

Good point!.

Perhaps, if the DR team that is there are on the ball, they will boost up the power on those flippers a bit to see how that goes.

I suspect as part of their "trials" they might be trying various software settings. Also it could be to do with the site power source.... variations. Things that may be overlooked from "in house" testing

#5906 25 days ago
Quoted from iceman44:

I too hope that DR doesn't let Jpop take an entire company down again. I took the RAZA instead of the cash payment.
Thus far, not very excited about what i'm seeing, although certainly subject to change after playing it.
I'm gonna chalk it up to just not close to being ready for reveal and let's see where its at in March.
I don't get why these Jpop games take MANY years to complete, so many resources spent on them, and yet its still not done.
I want to see what else DR has to offer with the other designers.
I've been living with RAZA for 6 or 7 years now. Get it out there and move on quickly to the next game.

I keep reminding myself that there are several other games being developed in paralel with this particular game, at least from the DR phase of RAZA. There is obviously Alot of time and resourses going into stuff we havent seen or heard of yet. I know this version has similarities to the zidware version (reality is it has changed a bit), but I'd say it's a fair bet RM wanted to start on it from the ground up, and have a few other people working with Jpop... as it was for him in the past. Hoping for a better outcome than zidware MG ..... half baked, but pretty, box of lights.

#5911 25 days ago
Quoted from Potatoloco:

My gut reaction is the flippers were under powered. This shot should be able to be hit from a trap in my opinion due to nothing feeding that flipper to create an on the fly shot.
If their intention was to have a ramp that needed speed to be hit but no inlane feed, then that’s a real head scratcher.

Sounds like it may have been a good idea to have that two level kickback squiggle leading to the left inlane somehow, even a small baggatelle/post component to nudge between playfield and lane drop... or something else as a lower risk feed to left inlane.

A clear drop ramp in front of ducks that feeds top squigly level of kickback, which then feeds to inlane? ... like a combo setup? , that would be cool

#5954 25 days ago
Quoted from abagwell:

Button autoplunge directly into the slings? I guess that's one way to keep ball times low...

It is a traditional shooter rod, variable skill shot, and even hitting slings did not look so harsh/drain monster, at all. ?

#5956 25 days ago
Quoted from Kiwipinhead:

Got to love Pinside, People watching a few 30 seconds of play telling some one who is there playing the game how shit it is.

Got that right, and some here still cant comprehend that the vast majority of what is written here in this rubish thread is of no value as "feedback".

Shit lighting and cameras, but people somehow think the way it looks from their armchair is how it will look to the eye. Think that watching noobs have a brickfest gives them more clue about how the game plays than someone whom actually played it.

Pinside is completely irrelivant for deeproots development cycle at this point. Even if some are crying about that fact, and in denial.

#5958 25 days ago
Quoted from iceman44:

And yet I don’t hear people screaming “take my money”
Just comparing it to Alien, which will be for sale at the same time, my past Sterns, CGC and JJP?
How does this compete? I don’t care what it costs
The DR development cycle needs to be way beyond this. Maybe it is

Why would they scream take my money? .... looks shit from where I'm standing... in pinside.

That is the point, it is not being promoted, or covered.

That does not mean it is shit, just that I have nothing valid to review.

The only posts in here worth Anything gameplay opinion wise are posts from people whom have PLAYED IT!

Reading someone elses review.... not pretending to be an experienced reviewer, for a machine that is not even being released, or covered.

:LOL:

#6000 25 days ago
Quoted from jimwe5t:

Thanks for sharing this video. Gives a better feel for RAZA imo. It does look fun to shoot. Were you able to get a ball in the Ferris wheel? Haven’t seen anyone do that yet?

It is hard to notice but the ferris wheel operation is seen in some video linked in here. Watching again you see things happening that you didn't see, or happened too fast, the first viewing. The video quality does make it a challenge of course, but it is good to have something rather than nothing.

Thankyou to everyone putting up videos for us! ... please don't stop, most of us appreciate it and take it for what it is.

The first video provided by Zach may have missed the ball actually going around the right ramp.... but it does show that the ball makes it all the way, easily, and the rection of the player making the shot... which sounded to me like it was a very Positive reaction. So thanks Zach, the video you sourced is as good as any of the other videos put up here so far. Cheers!

#6004 25 days ago
Quoted from jimwe5t:

Zach’s video is appreciated. I wonder if rather than trying to scour this thread for these videos, if the videos mentioned showing the main mechs working could be posted in one post?

Trouble is there are worthwhile bits to be seen in almost all of them. They are all fairly short, and embedded so easily viewed....

#6006 25 days ago
Quoted from JoinTheCirqus:

Yes it’s just a prototype, but I would have thought their development cycle was further along than this. It’s beautiful, but also a little...
Clunky
Slow
Sketchy ramp shot
I hope they can fix these issues, but that’s a lot of fairly substantial adjustments to make when a deadline is looming, and sometimes you just can’t take the “clunk” out once it’s part of the design.

So you have actually played it then?

That assesment does not fit at all with what I have seen and Read so far (from my armchair).

Unless you're talking about the Players being filmed. > Clunky, slow, sketchy at making the main ramp shot (which has been made plenty, just not much on video).

#6010 25 days ago
Quoted from JoinTheCirqus:

I’ve watched all of the videos, chump. Doesn’t take a mental giant to see what’s going on.

Ahh so you haven't played it. Thought not.

Read above from someone with a little first hand experience. zaphX.

Go play it... or Move on, "chump"

#6014 25 days ago
Quoted from JoinTheCirqus:

Everyone else gets to read, view and give their prelim comments. I do, and here you come riding in to shit on it.
Fuck off..

Your armchair review is very much at odds with the reviews from actual players. Sorry "chump" .

And there's no need to get angry!

Maybe DR can do an Angry Birds pinny just for you!? (and one or two others)

#6017 25 days ago
Quoted from JoinTheCirqus:

Then get off my posts if you have nothing nice to say, simple.

Your grammar and litteracy are above average for pinside!

#6024 25 days ago
Quoted from abagwell:

Also just in terms of feedback....that one successful ramp shot was from a rolling ball that had momentum on the flip, I still haven't seen one go all the way from a trap...

I rekon that may be by design, so you might never see that (unless you buy one and ramp up the flip power). Get the trap fanatic comp players to take a risk now and then. Play Better, play Pinball, hit the thing instead of needing to stop the ball all the time just to be capable of succesfully making a shot. I think it's great for the competetive side, sort the "men out from the boys" (or girls out from the women), especially if that ramp is crucial for making points. Bravo!

The satisfaction I think is diminished if these shots are made so easy that players Always make them successfuly (from traps). Let it be harder than that!

What seems to make it a bit too rough is the lack of left feeds, just so that newbies dont have to shoot "on the fly" from open playfield as their only regular chance to make the ramp.

#6028 25 days ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Reminds me of Houdini.
Except it’s 8 years in the making and they cranked out Houdini in a week.
Hopefully, unlike Houdini, they take some time to smooth out the edges. But on the other hand might be time to cut this (and jpop) loose and move on. It doesn’t make sense to get bogged down in another jpop morass when you have other projects in the pipeline.

I'd agree with that generally.

I think 8 years is a bit of a stretch though from my observation, to be fair on DR. 2-3 years maybe, but alot of that time was probably more focussed on dealing with jpops zidware mess, and actually assembling a team (to "help" him), and creating a workplace/factory. Based on that this current DR RAZA appears (wisely) to be a ground up redesign with input from (probably) several other designers. The current layout appears very different than jpops original solo offering, which is certain to be a good thing. I think it is only fair to at least basically write off 5 years of jpop "development" (when considering DRs effort in the game). Cant say he had anything much to bring to the table to begin with, for DR. They started almost from scratch I rekon. The basic theme is probably about all they really started with.

I'm not much of a jpop fan at all really anyway... well, I did flip off my TOM.... and can not stand Cirqus Voltaire, what a stinker that box of junk is.

The game does seem to be pretty well recieved though, by those whom have actually played it.

#6031 25 days ago
Quoted from jimwe5t:

Zach’s video is appreciated. I wonder if rather than trying to scour this thread for these videos, if the videos mentioned showing the main mechs working could be posted in one post?

Is there maybe a Pinside "Editor" around whom can add all the vids as "Key Posts"? .... starting with the post Zach made #5771 on page 116.

#6037 25 days ago
Quoted from J85M:

Was this the original RAZA artwork, that’s loads better than the new DR artwork, shame they couldn’t bring that original artwork over into this version.

Please read/refer the pretty recent Interview with Robert Mueller. And Steve Bowden. And JpoP. It answers some questions.

https://www.thisweekinpinball.com/deeproot-pinball-retro-atomic-zombie-adventureland-plus-interviews-with-john-popadiuk-steven-bowden-and-robert-mueller/

#6115 24 days ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

The first footage we got, even before Zach, was a link to a Facebook post.
In that Facebook post was waritten that you'd have to click on the comments to see more video.
First pinside post: OH GREAT JUST WHEN THEY GET THE GLAS ON THE VIDEOS IS OVER, AREN'T THERE MORE?!?
We got an official announcement on Deeproots Website aqt the end of May, that was over and over posted here and even with the reveal now a big article on TWIP that says that this is a porototype and while the "game/ playfield" in itself is pretty much finished, the cab art is a placeholer.
First pinside post: CAB LOOKS SHIT!!!
Why bother to do any PR HERE?!?
They do PR. Stern does (a lot of) PR.
They just don't do it here anymore.

Could not have said it better. It isn't in their interests to need an account, to put any information out on pinside, why stand up for a troll fest?

They'll still look through it, I'm sure ... but there is only the Very rare post that is worth more than 2c.

#6142 24 days ago

Been listening to H2H podcast. I think they gave a good summary of the showing of this prototype RAZA...

http://www.head2headpinball.com/2019/11/18/episode-117-dude-looks-like-a-zombie/

#6154 23 days ago
Quoted from cjchand:

Or are they holding something back? I see this weekend’s events as a site test - nothing more.
Can’t confirm, but I got the distinct feeling from talking with the DR folks - and I talked with them a lot - that these prototypes were purposefully stripped down. I guess the intent was real world tests on the layout in general, as well as mechs, input on the theme, etc. I think the lack of “innovations” shown was 100% on purpose as not to show their hand.
We will see in March, I suppose.

From reading the various interviews, I think this is spot on. Leaving as much "wow" for TPF as is possible. Shows through too with the placeholder art, and some other blatantly lacking aspects of playfield "activity". It seems like half a game, it probably is... maybe just enough "to compete with current offerings"?. Just trying to "make par" with current standards, and no more? . Seems like the scratch built boardset performed okay??... my guess, it is some of these aspects they were mostly there for, to focus on puting these new designs to the test.

#6155 23 days ago
Quoted from cjchand:

Good point, though I would actually prefer it not to plop at all. Maybe go down a lower-value ramp ala TOTAN.

Agreed. It’s much easier to integrate the animation into the overall experience. JP2’s animations fit into the overall experience better than Wonka, GoTG, Stern SW, or Elvira where you get a framed video laid on top of the rest of the normal background. It just feels tacked on and doesn’t really add anything to the game experience, IMHO. Call outs are far more important to me than video.

Seems there are two fairly simple additions that would address alot of this ramp issue.

1. Vacuum formed return from the "ramp fail drop zone" to the left inlane.

2. Second level kickback squiggle leads (with or without nudging/post separation maybe?) to the left inlane.

There's your left feed, by making a half ramp from trap. Or via the kickback. This potentially retains the Main left return separately in front of sling?

#6214 23 days ago
Quoted from vireland:

Of course. I don't expect 3D printed parts in the final machine, either. But they could easily have made much better-looking printed parts for their prototype that would have made a much better initial impression.

I think they are trying to press their point about current sub standard, or poor value, offerings in the world of NIB pinball.... and taking it to the next level.... whilst still managing to bring out a machine people enjoyed playing.

I think the "saucer on a spring" will not be in a production version, and is simply paying homage to "Tie Fighter On A Spring"-gate.

It seems they excelled at their goals, generally speaking.

#6217 23 days ago
Quoted from vireland:

Why can't we have both?
My point was the amount of effort to cast those with a cheap resin printer in MUCH higher resolution is not a whole lot more than what they expended to make them look crappy with a filament printer. Given both paths and the importance of the prototype reveal, why not put your best foot forward for very little money and not much more effort?
That said, I like many of the whimsical touches shown, and look forward to being able to play it to form an opinion about it in person.

I suspect he was going for, and trying to Emphasise "Cheap/sub standard"... like as a Goal! .... deliberately making things as cheap and crappy as posible, whilst still bringing an enjoyable playable game.

As he said "on par with other manufacturers curent offerings" ... I mean, I think you'll find they could have had schmick 3D prints, but that would not fit with the "cheap/poor value" theme he was aiming for as a Goal.

I think this is meant to be not just a prototype, but a Statement.... and shot across the bow of the likes of stern .... a bit of a cocky "dig" of sorts, perhaps. But all the while keeping the big cards concealed, ready to blow the industry wide open in march. If they come out with JJP level for 5k it is not just stern that will be in panic mode, but JJP as well.

Taking such a viewpoint kinda makes a whole lotta crap make a whole lot more sense, and can not help being excited about what this could all become.

Still no sense in holding our breaths, of course! Lol

I sense a price point between 4990 and 5490... for the Fully Featured Final Production RAZA "PREMIUM" (with all the bells whistes extra ramp feeds and toys that this "pro" was missing).

#6218 23 days ago
Quoted from Manic:

Well you have a more charitable outlook on that trinket than I did. But I like that... I can't help feeling positive about the whole thing myself. Of course it may be these pills I've been taking.
It would be cool if they could just have the saucer float with a magnet like the desktop floating globes and saucers.
Yeah it must be the pills
----

I think the saucer on a spring is Rubbish. Just as with the tie fighter. But I see it as I think RM intends, as a placeholder, and showing how any tom, dick or harry can produce $#!t! ....

"Here it is, $#!+ on purpose, for our first prototype 'pro'! ... do you like it?"

The answer from players seemed to be a cautious "yes".

And they are deliberately stripping it out and trying to make it bare bones, but still fun. I think they have been successful at that mission.

The big question is.... does what is "under wraps" actually exist? ..... well, I am beginning to think it just might actually exist.... all that has been hyped about...

#6220 23 days ago
Quoted from jorro:

JPoop
Next please
Bring the other four days of pinball!

4+2=5 ... ??

Goes with the pinside theme I guess, not making much sense.... still plenty of people with no clue needing to do alot of reading, it seems.

You've lost me Pmsl

#6222 23 days ago
Quoted from zaphX:

Pinside logic:
“That guy is a novice double flipper!!”
&lt;novice player makes the steep ramp shot&gt;
“The ramp is unmakeable and a complete design flaw”

From reading the thread, that seems pretty damn spot on! ... Gold!

... along with the gem from DSnadine on pinside logic....

Poster: There's going to be three green triangles!
Reply: Fuken Awesome!!! ... What shape and colour will they be? ... and how many??

#6224 23 days ago
Quoted from RA77:

Over 2 years for this
Why would the flipper power be reduced ?
Where is Ben Heck ???

Maybe to simulate the gameplay of a game that's been thrashed for 2000 plays?

But who knows really...

#6235 22 days ago

Well I couldn't help but have a bit of a play with what could possibly be added without really changing the layout, and considering some things said about the code:

Steven Bowden - TWIP interview:

"However, connected to this is an X-story “tower” (not revealing how large “X” is) of other, more focused activities to accomplish where you can go deeper into the story… . You can have lots of fun hanging out in the base areas of the Adventureland, but what could be at the top of this hypothetical tower?"

So I'm guessing this somehow would tie to a "Tower Mech", a physical location on the playfield, and the 4 inserts above flippers. Also something pretty Suss!! ... the Total lack of inserts right between the slings, perfectly sized for a display?. That "NED" is certainly going to need to be animated at least, and maybe some interactivity or additional mech as well.

Here's my theoretical "premium RAZA" by covering a pic in grafiti lol

RAZAguesses (resized).png

#6257 22 days ago
Quoted from cjmjmm2006:

I am not sure what our exact science is on plungers and flipper mechanics failing but 2000 plays should not be the gauge for failure rate. We have sites that go through 2000 plays in less than one month. If the game breaks down that quickly then I feel there is a QC issue. All manufacturers of late have had issues but I feel this had to be made aware to the manufacturer and it should have been corrected. Save if the unit has unique flipper mechs this is easily solved.

Who said anything about the flippers Failing? ... I thought someone said weak? ... oh well.

It is pretty funny if you think brand new flippers perform exactly the same as flippers that have done say 2000 plays (or whatever, sorry I just picked a random gummy number). I never said how much weaker, but maybe enough that you cant make the ramp from a trap? .... you know just to see how players reacted.

Pinside.... what a "special" & unique place!

crikey ...

#6258 22 days ago
Quoted from noitbe1:

Because it was not. The intent was to test a prototype.
For the rest have you done market analysis to know the NIB sales? By brand? The playfield issue may have calm down everybody but just for 2 brands but it’s not the end of pinball and the world.
Funny thing here we see always the same avatar for negative comments and positive. Seems like a fan club for negativity here too
We still need to hear the broken record but at the end the final product might shut some mouths, I hope... i really don’t care what DR said or their marketing approach, seems like a big deal for some. I will not put a poster of DR in my room even if they release the best pin ever.
I personally don’t like any recent pins moreover Stern. My Alien is an exception.
I don’t to pay crazy price for a feel cheap pin with bad taste design with unfinished code but it’s my opinion. In the 90’s they were working hard on design and creativity: moreover WMS and capcom. I’m nostalgic....
Generic question: what have we seen revolutionary since pinball 2000 released 19 years ago? What? Big lcd screen? Wow... p3 is the only one.
DR is supposed to have the gut to try with the risk behind. We will see but they didn’t revealed anything as stated in their interview...

Well said. +1

#6270 22 days ago
Quoted from Pinballer67:

That was their reveal, whether they like it or not. Even if you are an established business, like Stern, you shouldn't test your machine in public (and I'm sure you'll never see Stern testing a machine in public). Let alone when you are a company who is releasing their first pinball ever, has insinuated that it will be superior to everything else out there...and everybody is watching.

A Reveal of some kind of prototype, of course.

A Reveal of the actual RAZA, Definately not. That has been abundantly clear to most people following, since well before Houston.

This is a Reveal of DRs game with no new innovations, as they stated.

Yes, Testing their "industry standard" regular pre-release first concept never to be sold machine, in a public location, makes complete sense for deeproot!. They would be stupid not to.

In other things that make complete sense, the idea of these guys relaxing as a group for a bevvy, after Houston, to peruse this thread and take some time to Cack Themselves Laughing at some of the clowns in here!

#6271 22 days ago
Quoted from Fytr:

My take is that this protoype game feels like something they might have put together like a year or more ago and had it more or less lying around since then as-is. So they decide they need to show *something* to get people talking about them again and maybe keep the folks waiting for it off their backs so they decide to polish it up a bit and show it. Meanwhile back at the shop they have multiple games much further along, including this one, but they want to save their powder for a proper production reveal next year. Also manages everyone's expectations a bit so they can try to blow our minds next year.
If this isn't the case, and this truly represents the actual state of this game after all this time, well, they're done for IMHO. Maybe they spent the last 3 years re-inventing backbox hinges and shit instead of making actual games, I dunno.
...and I actually love the idea of a major shot/ramp in a game that can't be made from a trap up. These guys that refuse to play on the fly and must control every shot from trap drive me crazy...

Here here! +1

#6273 22 days ago
Quoted from cjmjmm2006:

If they are weak that has failed the game play. Have had games at the brewery that have 6000 games on them, no flipper issues. Not weak not stuck nothing. So I get it, the games at home are played much less. I am just giving my opinion to you on failure rate in the field as most would not realize what it's like to play your games 20k+ times.
Either way thanks for your opinion. I mean to no ill will just having an objective opinion.
Also another observation I was making was in 28 hours, 2000 games is a lot. You figure there are some very good players and some not so good but the average would be almost 72 games an hour which we all know is very unlikely.

Yeah, nah, yeah ... lol ... I meant "simulate" <however number of plays it takes to> make the flippers weaker from lack of maintenance, whatever.

I did not mean the game would get anywhere near 2000 plays in a couple of days, just meant ... simulate advanced "deterioration" so that they can guage how players react to their game if it was not performing 100%. That's all . Like a location "scenario". More feedback than "data" for that bit maybe. I dunno, was just speculating.

-6
#6296 22 days ago
Quoted from thedarkknight77:

Stern will be the only company to survive a recession and if you or Robert don’t understand that.........You need to rethink your perspective.

Looks more like stern will be the First to go under with their super low budget, cardboard quality builds, and rediculously inflated prices, from what I have experienced. If stern really have no margin on pro's then they are very bad at running a cost effective manufacturing bussiness. But, I think they probably do manufacture cost effectively. In my opinion it is more likely they just claim there is no profit margin on pros, because obviously it would be a super bad look if everyone knew just how much they are getting fleeced and ripped off. Keep taking more and more out, as material and build quality continues to plumet. While the price blows out more and more to provide ever increasing profit margins for wealthy greedy investors. Gotta love capitalism, I suppose.

In my opinion Stern is on the way out mate, they are complacent... I am not the only one whom will never buy another NIB stern. There are more and more of us with every passing day. If Deeproot is even half successful, that will only be an increasing trend.

-5
#6302 22 days ago
Quoted from wolfemaaan:

Ghostbusters is a zero. I noted that as you can’t put zeros. With that said, JP at 1 is saying its better than Ghostbusters
This means I’ll play JP, not Ghostbusters.
Get it?

Both still the same cost cut shi+ build quality/materials. Pity coz Elwins game looks pretty good. Not good enough to pay that much for soft wood, flaky clearcoat, craters and crap flimsy fittings though. Maybe used, in a few years, if any are around that arent a thrashed out pile of bare wood and splinters. Stern are now undeniably a major "lightweight" manufacturer.

Some praise them. Each to their own. I give them some credit. But they are definately building junk quality compared to everyone else. At prices way above what they are worth.

*Sorry that might not be fair... Doesn't GB still have a propper lockdown reciever and coffin lock?? ... makes it one step better machine than JP.

#6304 22 days ago
Quoted from dc2010:

Agreed!
If there is one reason why Stern's profit margin is as low as Gary says it's because they License EVERY pin they produce, when you have to pay a 3rd party to use their IP, your already losing profit, and quality/coding/extras all suffer
If DR can create original themes and control production costs then they have won half the battle already...

I think you'd find their profit margins are not low, at all!!. Unless we deduct investor dividends as part of "costs", before calculating "profit". Lol

REGARDLESS of what the profit margins actually are, gaz is Always going to preach that profit margins are "as low as they can be!". It is the only posible PR answer for the question "How much do you profit?". Are you getting value? ... "Of course you are!!, the profit margins on those games are virtually non existent!!" ... It has no basis in reality for the public, of whatever the margin actually is. It is just the neccesary "line".

There is no way they do not have a "good profit margin" on pro's. If they don't then they are Very inefficient at making pinball games, and doing something or another Very wrong... even if it is just due to the licencing fettish.

#6309 22 days ago

Considering RMs portfolio, it's like this is a "fun" business for him. I suspect, well, all of this expense up to March will be simply marked off as "establishment costs" or similar, draw a line under it, and go from there.

He certainly seems to be on a mission! ... I kinda recall part of it being about bringing pinball to a wider proportion of the population?... partly by price point?

Forget about the free play ... Will there be Free Pinball MACHINES being thrown about by RM in mini comps at TPF?

Whatever happens, March is bound to be interesting!

#6314 22 days ago
Quoted from thedarkknight77:

For those of you who think Stern is not making money hand over fist on pros, you are crazy!

Well AMEN to That, at least!

#6317 22 days ago

21 TITLES! Lol

#6374 21 days ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

As Robert Mueller's interview is pertinent to this thread, I will post some highlights. There are plenty of interesting points and comments made, so listen for yourself.
* Playfield will be made of wood and it can take sledge hammer without enduring damage.
* Deeproot will encounter the same manufacturing challenges as everyone else.
* There won't be any great initial awareness that the product is innovative. When you see all of their games and you open them up and see how they go together, you'll see the innovation more clearly. (oh brother).
* Customer may have options for playfield art, cabinet art and customization of the game.
* Robert is waiting to set game pricing until before launch. Won't price it at a discount. Robert maintains he will provide value, but not all at the Stern pro price.
* There may be three levels of every game released. Undefined what this means. (Robert implies that certain models with have more value and indicates more mechs or more software for a higher price and a version without that is lower cost). They will be pricing some games below market and some above market (I see Robert releasing models in all ranges between $4k - $15k).
* Robert says that he does not read Pinside anymore because it is too negative. "Pinside is a sewer" and any feedback is worthless and goes right in the trash. (He said this three times but I wonder why he can't get find any constructive feedback here. He is right that Pinside can be negative, but there is plenty of great observations and analysis from my armchair perspective. His comment is suspect since the stated reason for going to Houston was to get feedback).
* Deeproot has 21 games in design. 13 are 50% and the rest are 15%.
* All games will be different from one another in style, content, target demographic, skill level.
* Zombie Yeti's version of "artwork on Raza was a hack job".
* "Stern is weak".

The "hack job" quote, are you sure that is not out of context?

I could have sworn he was talking about the final art that is on RAZA production game being a "hack job" in that it is put together from several artists... it needed some major alterations to incorporate rules and theme/story.

I didn't hear it as him saying ZY art itself was a hack job at all. ? .... (except maybe in the way it was given vague direction at zidware?)

Maybe we better listen again.... :-

#6382 21 days ago
Quoted from o-din:

Brussel sprouts disgust me.

"I have every right to be offended!! ... and you have every right to really not care!"

#6400 21 days ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

I’m a Gunsmoke fan. Learned right from wrong by listening to Lawman Lucas McCain. We only know a few of Deeproot’s 13 titles. The others will by definition be a surprise. If one was Gunsmoke, I wouldn’t be surprised.
[quoted image]

One of these licenced themes is going to have to be Sledgehammer!! ... How could it not be!!

#6440 21 days ago
Quoted from aingide:

A low bar!
Alienating their largest potential customer base is certainly innovating, though. A marketing breakthrough that worked great for Homepin.

Pinside is not their "largest potential customer base", it is insignificant. There may be reason for DR to sift through the rubbish posts in here, but there is certainly no need for them to be posting here. Information is much easier to release elswhere, somewhere that trolls are in the minority. Good move ditching pinside imho.

#6469 21 days ago
Quoted from TreyBo69:

Because no one has been able to mass manufacture a game for less
Even an incredibly lean operation like Spooky Pinball can’t get a game like TNA under Stern Pro pricing, and that game came to them nearly fully developed.

It is comparing oranges with tennis balls, but Haggis says $5250 for Celts.

If Damien can construct a machine for that kind of money, what does that suggest for DR or stern....

#6480 21 days ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

Ony thing I "officially" get out from that podcast, is that Robert more &amp; more refrains from that "Ferrari for Fiat" price statement.
They want to offer the best "value", aka. "best bang for the buck"...
...that of course is nice but still it'd be great not to fish in the same pond as everybody else (incomewise) and offer a cheaper alternative to a Stern Pro, to get other -new- segments of people into pinball.
(They just have to expand the market if they all want to stay in business and healthy.)
Well I'd guess no Stern Pro priced Magic Girl for me...

I think he suggested that what we seen at Expo in this RAZA prototype was the kind of thing that he would call entry level, or budget. Something of a much lower price point. New markets ....

But for RAZA, 95% of the playfield? .... does mean there is another 5% still to be added or changed.

What if Magic Girl has two options for feature level? ... the premium costly, but the MGPro comes out costing the same or less as a stern Pro... but with more features and all round inovation than a stern Premium?. Is that value?.

It is doable.

Stern should reap massive profits, given their pricing. But they are wise to keep that level a closely guarded secret, of course.

If profit was really so modest, why wouldn't they give evidence? ... stern is not transparent, or open about about numbers or details. They exist to make money, as much of it as possible.

#6484 21 days ago

A classic example of how so much rubbish gets posted in threads like this, chinese whispers, misrepresented information. Unreliable. More problems than it is worth. Lots of speculation.

The original post is still a "key post" and as yet has still not been updated to be representative.

More than reasonable for manufacturers and designers to give pinside a wide berth. Imho.

Of course it is unfortunate. As can happen though, the few spoil it for the many.

#6518 20 days ago
Quoted from screaminr:

I disagree . After listening to the interview , I thought he was putting down " Z Y " but then realised what he had said and tried to backtrack .

Might be worth listening again.... well, My selective hearing did not hear it that way at least. I did listen to it again after the misguided post, just because the post description sounded way off to me, compared to what I heard RM saying. Confirmed, I believe It Was way off (the post). Also confirmed by ZY.... after discovering what pinside said was essentially Rubbish(ing).

Zidware art was a "hack-job", as in still not integrated to theme/story. He speaks in the same context on both Zidware and DR RAZA. People not comprehending context is where half this nonsense comes from on pinside, I'm replying to your post because it fails to consider.... the same as Chris seemed to fail to consider, requiring RM to clarify. Which he did. But people still know better, that is pinside.... and why manufacturers and designers are smart to stay out of here, unfortunately.

#6519 20 days ago
Quoted from Rondogg:

I thought it was very odd that he tried to make it very clear that Deeproot money was "his money" and that there are "no investors". Was he just using jargon wordplay or is that correct? I thought there was evidence of this being some sort of investment vehicle, no?

No, just pinside "expert opinion" ... speculation taken as facts.... again.

#6521 20 days ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

Of course Pinside is a target customer for Deeproot and we are the biggest organized pinball group. Pinsiders play pinball and buy pinball machines and Deeproot is planning to make and sell pinball machines, right? Robert wants educated customers who see value and Pinside is already tuned into looking for features and mechs. WTF is Robert thinking?

Pinside, the threads like this one, has proven to be little more than a Circus made up largely of misinformed comments, by people whom think they know, and by god don't dare come forth to stick up for yourself or the pitchforks will be flying thick and fast!! lol

Stern designers left, stern never gets involved, RM is only the same story. Designers, Stay Away from the pinside cesspool!!, threads like this one, for the most part, appear to be just a place for pinheads to argue about their imaginary crap!. Throw around "thoughts"

Designers/manufacturers.... Read, of course.... but good idea to take most of what is written in here with a BIG pinch of salt! .... and definitely think twice before posting!! ...or just don't (feed the Trolls).

#6522 20 days ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

It's not "unfortunate." It's completely unprofessional for the CEO of a pinball company to be on Pinside duking it out in the mud with everybody and acting like an asshole. That's OUR job, not theirs. That's why you don't see Jack here. That's why you don't see Gary here. That's why you rarely see Charlie here, and even the Planetary Pinball guy stopped fighting with people here and simply started cranking out successful remakes one after the other. If you are running a pinball company, you have better things to do than argue with people on pinside and talk shit about all of the other companies, designers, artists, etc. It's completely unprofessional.
It's not surprising it took RM TWO YEARS to figure that out, but then he's learning as he goes along, isn't he? Now that he's figured that small detail he out, he can work on the other 6.2 million details that going into actually producing a pinball machine.
Hopefully the learning curve on that is faster than it was on figuring out he had a better use of his time than beefing on Pinside. Though that Kaneda appearance doesn't inspire much confidence.

Yeah... it is unfortunate!

Trolls, and people with poor comprehension.

-6
#6550 20 days ago
Quoted from konjurer:

Perhaps I can lift the shroud of mystery for you. I study and teach this stuff for a living and, while you may not like his style, I read the tea leaves as he knows exactly what he's doing and I think he is setting DR up for success. His team is designing for manufacturing as he is developing the product. He's laying down the architectural runaway for production (he calls the DR Package). When he talks about innovation hes not talking just about some crazy new mech never before seen, he's talking incremental improvements in the manufacturing process, materials and design. DR is learning, reacting to data and pivoting as they go. They're incorporating lean-agile thinking which is a deep and rich set of tools, principles and behaviors. He's not trying to develop one perfect machine but setting up products for different segments of the market. On top of that he seems to have the capital and, most importantly, a vision to pull it off.

Oh dear, a post based on sensible reasoned observation and knowledge!! ... but wait, no, pinsiders in this deeproot bashing joke "boutique" pinball thread won't have that! . How will the stern fan club deal with such reason? ... my bet is there will be dozens douche bag trollers come along and downvote the above post, and start waving around pitchforks in a rage of disgust!!

Heck this post on it's own will probably get a 4 to 1 DV ratio from the troll sector on it's own! ... in a thread like this, that is merely a compliment

The thread is more a joke than valid information (everyone goes elswhere for info with validity). Seems to be why most are here.... stiring crap and entertainment

Continue!

#6552 20 days ago
Quoted from Richthofen:

You know what they say, those who can't do, teach.

... and those whom can't do Or teach come to pinside to make being a troll an occupation.

#6553 20 days ago

Wow this is Hillarious!!! .... .... Great entertainment!

#6564 20 days ago
Quoted from notaflyingtoy:

... says the person who has posted 100 times in this thread in the last eight days - how do you like your new job?

Much more entertaining than my real job!!

My real job is so dull sometimes I spend half my working day in here for entertainment

#6565 20 days ago
Quoted from hank527:

Please go away with your b.s. babble. You refuse to see the truth in what RM and Deeproot currently is. I'm anxious to see other designs when the owner matures.

Awwww, cmon!? ... but I fit right in going by that description!

#6566 20 days ago
Quoted from Manic:

Well for a "bullshit artist" RM did accomplish something that was NOT bullshit: he actually got CASH back to people that were screwed by JFlop. To ME... that was damn important and bought him considerable goodwill.
Despite how people love to rant and pile on when they see an easy target... if a good product gets produced *people will buy*. Sometimes it seem like THAT is what worries some of the posters over here. I'd hate to think that's the case but that seems pretty obvious.
Remember nobody loved IP before the MM remake got rolling and then people bought... and bought... and all was forgiven.
Even Mike's pugnacious attitude would have been forgiven and forgotten if Thunderbirds had turned out to be a great looking and great playing game.
So despite being his own worst enemy I'd like to see this succeed. If it does well it means they are producing a good product and who wouldn't want that? Why would you seriously NOT want to see something new?
Back to your regularly scheduled mudslinging and undoubtedly precise predictions from the armchair experts over here.
MOST of which, I gotta add... seem like pretty good guys when they are not feeling threatened or triggered. And of course I've been guilty of this myself.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

But seriously though, totally agree with Manic!

I don't think anyone commenting on the toxicity of "pinside" was referring to anything more than the specific topic threads, speculation threads, such as this one. All the other aspects of Piside are great, and the main reason I ever came here. Pinside is invaluable for pinheads, just maybe not for manufacturers to engage with, in many circumstances.

After all, the descriptions of RM's "behavior" can be used just as accurately for far too many posters in this very thread. The pot calling the kettle black, so to speak. (hypocracy)

#6568 20 days ago
Quoted from VGC1612:

Am i the only one that always read deeproot as deepthroat by mistake?No ok im out ... lol

Where we come from "root" is a directly interchangeable word with "fv@k" .... (except in the context of being part of a tree/plant).

Geez, I'm feeling a bit Rooted!
Wanna root?
Who gives a root!
Get rooted!
How about you go root your boot!
I'd be up for a good deep root!
Would you like to get Deeply Rooted?

"I'm Definitely Down for five consecutive days of Deep Rooting!!" (assuming she loves me, and I find her physically and intellectually attractive)

F*c# that damn tree root, time to burn the sucker out!

Which makes the name extra funny for us!

#6569 20 days ago
Quoted from Manic:

Let's just hope you're not a police or ambulance dispatcher

No I maintain robots in an ice cream factory.

No lives on the line

#6571 20 days ago
Quoted from iceman44:

I don't get the marketing efforts of these people, Stern included, calling Pinside a "sewer". Yes it certainly can be but if you don't think Pinside is your market as a pinball manufacturer then you are completely F ED!!!

So to translate , ".... as a pinball manufacturer then you are completely ROOTED!!!" Lol

#6584 20 days ago
Quoted from razorsedge:

Where we come from "root" is a directly interchangeable word with "fv@k" .... (except in the context of being part of a tree/plant).
Geez, I'm feeling a bit Rooted!
Wanna root?
Who gives a root!
Get rooted!
How about you go root your boot!
I'd be up for a good deep root!
Would you like to get Deeply Rooted?
"I'm Definitely Down for five consecutive days of Deep Rooting!!" (assuming she loves me, and I find her physically and intellectually attractive)
F*c# that damn tree root, time to burn the sucker out!
Which makes the name extra funny for us!

Just to dig up some older pics re. Deeproot, here is an Aussie (who some may know) sporting "unofficial" DR apparel of his own design... but the meaning may have been a little lost on any other than Aussies....

DEEPROOTING (resized).jpg

Takes on an even more wonderous tone when simultaneously viewing the old DR logo!

*don't look too closely at the pictographs!

#6589 20 days ago
Quoted from wolfemaaan:

There are some here that are butthurt because J-Pop t-bagged their noses. Get over it

Then, after alot of hassles and effort by someone people bag, JpoPs victims were finally, literally, Deep Rooted! (but in a more loving kinda way ) .... they get something back, thanks to RM.

People have the right to be offended... or not be offended.

I'm optimistic. Not offended.

RM ....

#6603 19 days ago
Quoted from hank527:

This is wrong on so many levels. Jpop is a crook who stole money. RM hired a crook and took the designs that others funded. RM and Jpoop are equally wrong here.
Go ask Cointaker how RM is paying him back after repeated promises to do so.

Oh yes it's all so wrong wrong wrong. Lol

Of course some may well hold a grudge forever.

I'm still not offended. Not by DR, or RM, not even JpoP really.

There are plenty more serious things in the world to be offended about than the mere incompetent mess of a failed startup boutique pinball company, or the pompous "blustery" words of a guy pouring "his own money" into a new "innovative" pinball company (while helping to clean up someone elses prior mess).

News in pinball:

"Multi millionaire business man starts pinball company, at sacrifice of new yacht and Bugatti! .... then gets 'blustery'!!"

.....

.... or maybe it's just a pyramid scheme

#6643 19 days ago
Quoted from Fytr:

So I listened to the Kaneda interview. I don't listen to Kaneda as a rule since most of the time I end up wishing that I'd stabbed myself in the eye with a spoon afterwards due to his tendency toward blathering on about basically nothing, groundless conjecture positioned as fact, and horrible mean-spirited personal attacks. I also don't think he really plays pinball for fun that much, commentating from the sidelines is his hobby, not playing pinball.
Aaaaaanyway. I will give him props for this interview, he's always a lot more sane with a guest on and it was really pretty decent and he was able to get Robert to talk a little bit about some things that I'm sure he had no intention of speaking about going in.
Here's my take...
- The "hack job" comment was meant to describe how they had to take the original ZY 2D art and then extend it themselves with other artists. This was not a slant against ZY at all, just stating a fact that when you have to merge different artists work it can be difficult and not seamless.
- They are working on multiple games per designer simultaneously. So attempting to complete multiple games at one time would explain slow progress.
- I was disappointed somewhat that they are sticking with wood PFs and CC vs some indestructible new materials or something, but he is certainly dedicated to producing a wood + CC PF that performs far better than anything we've seen in the last 5-10 years. This is a good thing.
- A lot of their innovation is obviously in the design and manufacturing area, which I'm really into so will be interested to see what they've come up with.
- He's growing weary of the whole pinball scene. If I was an employee at DR I'd be getting worried about now...
- Basically he made some provacatively bold statements out of the gate, it worked to garner DR attention, so mission accomplished. Now that the reality of the products is going to be known (well next May I guess), we can all judge them on their actual merits.
- He's had his fill with the haters and trolls on pinside, hence "it is a sewer". Luckily pinside can be more than one thing so while some threads/posters make it a sewer, others make it a treasure.
I hope they pull it off and make some games I want to play, maybe even purchase. I *really* hope they force some improvements via competition in the ever-declining quality and ever-increasing cost cutting in the industry.

Well said!

#6650 19 days ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

I’ll PayPal $2 to anybody who actually read all of that.
Honor system!!!

I did read all of it

Easy 2 bucks!

Don't worry about a transfer, I donate the funds toward your next beer mate!

#6709 18 days ago
Quoted from pinsanity:

Vox Pop - Best ice cream in the State.
Boysenberry for the win.

Yes it is sensational, although it's still the all natural Honey ice cream that does it for me!

Especially in Giant Twins!

#6717 16 days ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

Depends. If you came for information about Deeproot, come back in March 2020. But if you are here to get deeprooted or if you came for rumor, drama, speculation or if have a conspiracy theory, welcome home.

I thought I heard RM put the word out for anyone in the business of making pinball, that he would be happy to talk about "sharing" his "inovations", or even contract manufacturing?

I wonder if he might have been talking with Pinball Brothers... ... imagine if one of the things TPF brings, is a DR manufactured PB Alien!.

Of course we can be pesimistic. Consider things unlikely. Although, people directly involved with that game now work for DR? ... and other factors. hmmmmm

Whatever is revealed... there are high hopes for some great games, of whatever theme. It is exciting!

#6719 15 days ago
Quoted from luvthatapex2:

People directly involved with Alien work for DR now? Who?

I thought there was Nordman and Thiel? ... at least. every chance I have crossed wires lol

#6721 15 days ago
Quoted from luvthatapex2:

Oh right the great David Thiel, I forgot! Amazing man. I thought Dennis' original design of Alien was only a start and it was completed by Dave Sanders... but yes, Dennis is great too. Hope to see fun games from both men at DR.

Don't quote me, but I seem to recall something about fine tuning of the ramps, from proto to production. Nordman "came back", pitched in near the end as well (maybe unofficially) to get the final ramps "right". Could be chinese whispers.

Didn't he quit? ... forseeing the issues?

If Nordman got to fine tune the final production Heighway/PB Alien, as a re-make, certainly that couldn't be a bad thing.

#6728 15 days ago
Quoted from adol75:

That video is the best I’ve seen so fae. But I’m still not excited about that game. The looooooong ramp is long, the geometry needs some tuning, I dont see much to shoot and the multiball looks dead.

Looks like plenty of good shots from what I was watching. Did we see the same video?

I seem to agree more with Jeff, playing it. I think the shots and the game look good.

#6736 15 days ago
Quoted from wolfemaaan:

“Popular 80s theme“
Hmmm
Dukes of Hazzard?
He-Man?
Sledgehammer!?!

Inspector Gadget

Knight Rider!

Mad Max!

Muppets

Scooby Doo!

Die Hard!

Top Gun

Gremlins!

Police Academy!

Get Smart!

Battlestar Galactica!

....

....

Alien! ...

Lol

#6744 14 days ago

I think any game where you can make every shot from a trap is a bore-fest mistake.

#6775 13 days ago
Quoted from noitbe1:

So what are you doing here?
You’re patronizing?

Trolling it seems, like some others.

#6776 13 days ago
Quoted from konjurer:

I'm am kind of surprised by how some games with tough shots are heralded as GOATs while others are pilloried as garbage for one difficult shot out of 7 or 8 major shots. There are a lot of great games with difficult shots. And yet I don't hear the same criticism of those games.
I want a diversity of machines and shots. I like machines that have a shot or two that is going to take me some time to master. I listened to Kaneda's interview with the state champion guy and while I agreed with some of his observations, I also have very different desires for a game than him.

Comp players seem to want their games "clinical"?. For the rest of us I think it is about enjoyment, the fun of the game!. Seems to sum it up from seeing the way things go. Just like a game being a fail only because not every shot can be made from a trap? Wtf?. Might be what some "serious" players want, but always trapping is simply dull to alot of regular pinball players like me, or a spectator.

Comp players can have their cookie cutter sterns, the rest of us might want something a bit more interesting, and challenging, I guess.

People here talk as if the ramp "can't be made" ... clearly it can. Just not from that beloved trap. One of the best things about the ramp imho, forces the clinical to get out of their comfort zone and actually play better. I guess there will always be those stamping their feet, having a little tanty, and refusing to play the game because of the "impossible" ramp shot (for some).

What a joke. Lmao

#6798 11 days ago
Quoted from stantman:

You can repeat it as many times as you want. It doesn't mean it's true, and it also doesn't mean the ramp wasn't a terrible design choice. Why would somebody showing off their game for the first time and hoping for real gameplay feedback/logs intentionally turn down the flippers and make one of the few potentially fun features on the game........

What Is true is that it Was declared as a prototype well before being put on-site, and different in almost every aspect to the final version. They were not showing off their production game, this won't be for sale (it represents a "very low price point", which is not the target for RAZA). It did seem to take broken records for some to get that. It was always clear to me that if you wanted to call it a reveal, then it was a "reveal" of nothing complete. Prototype Testing. Why would DR want any large amounts of video out there of a flawed prototype game they are never going to release?. It is not in their interests to promote that.

What is also true is that many seem to assume this prototype game would somehow represent their current level of development.

Why wouldn't DR be keen to keep as many of their "surprises" as possible under wraps until their reveal? . Smartest choice for DR is to test the Oldest Most Thrashed Out cut down version of RAZA they have (for many reasons), that can still collect relevant system or game feedback/data.

As far as I see it, for DR, Houston was no more than a location test of a game that has probably existed for 12 months or more. Pretty much described that way by RM as well. People can call it a "reveal" all they like... but it wasn't, it was litterally a test of something "cut down". A "reveal" of something that you won't be able to buy, something for the public to see, play and talk about while DR "tests", little more.

They need the reveal of RAZA (which has not happened yet!) to be the greatest step possible better than this prototype game that people have already seen and played (wondering why to let the flippers be crap?). It makes sense that they would want to show their oldest most basic playable prototype of RAZA. If everything is playing out well you would have to guess that right now, since the old prototype has faced location play and transport etc., internally the focus would need to be around putting together the already different/up-to-date test prototypes, of the actual final finished version.

I am convinced at least some of the criticisms of the prototype we have heard in here, would have already been identified and incorperated into newer prototypes, from before November. I would guess some of the feedback becomes like confirmation, as well as new feedback from the public providing additional insights (some relevant to the current development, some not).

Of course the track record of pre-order pinball companies is bad... errr... hang on, this isn't a pre-order or deposit model? . Tough to find a comparison. There is no track record....

It will certainly be interesting to see what unfolds, and just how much value.

I'm Rooting for Deeproot!

#6799 11 days ago
Quoted from screaminr:

Robert clearly said the Flipper power wasn't turn down . Having an opinion is one thing but stating that opinion as FACT is another .

But I swear I rembember Steve Bowden saying different?

Maybe they're both wrong and they were just unmaintained.... gummy and sluggish... Lol

#6801 11 days ago
Quoted from CLEllison:

For those that actually played the pin, why not "tactfully" tell the attendants the flippers felt under powered and ask if they would turn the juice up a tad?
Why did no one "tactfully" ask to see the under the playfield and inside the back box?
Why did no one "tactfully" ask to see the "new tech" that RM has been boasting about?
I'm a firm believer you can talk about anything. It's all about the approach.
I've watched some of the videos and the attendants didn't "feel" like pinheads. They felt more like temp workers asked to baby sit a machine? They would've been prime candidates to catfish info from. Hell, even prototype cars at a car show will allow a look under the hood right? Worst case scenario you wouldve been told no. RM seems like a very proud man, I suspect he will go out of his way on the final product to give pinside the middle finger. "Let those who doubted us rule this day" ~Thorin Oakenshield

Some posts here from people whom took this kind of approach, fishing for info... it seemed in some cases the DR guys may have revealed more than they were supposed to...

Most innovations or tech not present (or visible) in the prototypes, anyway. So they said?

Some posts about discussions with the "babysitters" suggest perhaps a degree of non-disclosure agreement?

I agree, I think he just wants to do it. What he said. Period.

If he succeeds, even a bit... well ...

#6811 11 days ago

Seems plenty of pinsiders don't see the forrest, the trees are in the way... errrr, flippers are in the way ...

#6824 10 days ago

Not a fan of sterns modern flippers. They leave Alot to be desired, from my perspective.

I certainly hope DR flippers are built tough, rather than lightweight (snappy), and please don't follow sterns trend of Cheap materials!

"Snappy" is not always Powerful.

Slower flipper is Not always weaker.

Lighter is less durable. Inferior materials are weaker.

Give me strong, well crafted, reliable flipper mechs over the sub-par offered by stern, any day.

#6826 10 days ago
Quoted from vicjw66:

Stern flippers are plenty powerful when working right. There’s nothing better than the flippers on a brand new Stern. But cheap parts do cause them to break down fairly quickly. Slow solid flippers are no fun. And when JJP flippers break down they are especially bad. I think all the best players with top notch flipper skills prefer Stern.

When working right is the key sentence there.

I mean weak as in construction, not about "power" levels. Stern flippers are undeniably inferior/cheaper than some other manufacturers.

Heavy flipper mechs, that actuate slower because of that, can certainly still be fast and powerful. Just better materials, engineering, more reliable.

I don't like the light snappy stern flippers at all really. I prefer Strong Solid flippers, which can still provide just as much velocity, except reliably. Yep.

Sometimes some people just might not clean as often as would be needed. I'd rather strip and clean, than replace a bunch of proken metal parts, made of shit metal that can not resist fatigue cracking. "Throw away" model is a problem going forward as well, anyway.

#6838 5 days ago
Quoted from yaksplat:

wow, i thought that was just me. I don't know what it is. just feels hollow.

Light-weight? ... Flimsy? ...

Well for whatever it is worth, that is what playing a new stern feels like to me, anyway.

Counter acts the good things about stern games, to their detriment.

Hence being glad to be able to justify going for RaM, it isn't being thrown together cheap, as another baren fan layout by stern.

#6891 1 day ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

THIS!!!
That 80's synthwave (Cyberpunk) Style was something completely different (I love it, that's why I imported one - wich is quite difficult).
You won't get things like that with Stern or JJP, so I root with the others.

I think O-din was refering to something other than TNA.

#6893 1 day ago

Until last week I thought it might actually be one of the surprise themes from DR... obviously not.

#6895 1 day ago
Quoted from Pinballer67:

Why not?! This thread contains everything else under the sun: the good, the bad, the horror, the joy, the indifferent... !!

I was kinda thinking exactly the same Lol

Womens shoes don't ket kicked off topic, but potential kinds of pinball themes that could be great for pinball is off topic?

It's pretty funny really!

In an alternative reality this thread is Blowing Up with sneak peeks of the new Deeproot Rick and Morty pinball machine!

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