Alice in Wonderland
Zidware Pinball USA, 2013
Celts
Haggis, 2021
Magic Girl
Zidware Pinball USA, 2017
Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland
Zidware Pinball USA, 2012
Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland (Arcade Edition)
Deeproot, 2020
Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland (Xtra Edition)
Deeproot, 2020You're currently viewing posts by Pinsider rarehero.
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I don't even think we have to listen to this to know that this whole thing will not end well.
Jpop is poison. Going to him despite EVERYTHING WE ALL KNOW just shows they're morons...who alienates their potential customer base right off the bat!??!
F Deeproot.
Quoted from pin2d:If I were owed something from Zidware though, and knowing that right now JPOP has no funds to pay back Zidware customers and no means to make the machines without help...if deeproot can provide restitution to those effected by JPOP's past mistakes, isn't that a good thing? Or is JPOP so hated that - even if deeproot makes those effected whole - since they hired him, they'll never be accepted in pinball?
Why would it work this time? He didn't know how to produce a game on his own, he fucked it all up with American Pinball...why would it be any different this time? Jpop, without an infrastructure of a pinball factory, engineers and proper management is incapable of doing anything. Why does Deeproot thing they can change him or complete his projects?
They're either super ignorant or super arrogant....or both.
Quoted from jwilson:"Sure. Why not?"
I was waiting for him to say "We're going to make tremendous pinball, believe me, 100%. Liddle' Jack is fake pinball. Sad."
Quoted from PinballNewb:Doesn’t matter. If they somehow pull a rabbit out of their ass and have a full featured, JPOP designed, flipping game ready to go in the next year and half...many people will be lined up ready to buy. Especially if it is at the price point they seem to be implying.
Yeah, pinball is EASY! 
Quoted from jonesjb:Is Andrew Heighway involved in the Deeproot venture? Hydrofoils weren’t enough?
No, I’m saying that what’s happening right now with Heighway is the future of Deeproot (and Dutch). Money + ego doesn’t create a successful pinball company. Not to mention starting a company with a man who’s scammed the pinball community, and then attacking the hobbyists that a new pinball company needs for early sales. Deeproot is DOA.
Quoted from Mbecker:Who’s watching all these Bowden rules short videos? Anything looking interesting?
Someone please correct me if I’m wrong, but is Bowden a programmer? I’m under the impression that he’s just writing out tomes of rules...who’s actually coding these games?
So, he’s not programming? All pinball companies have programmers who create the rules & then implement them along with light & sound choreography. I wonder why DR would split these duties. Could there be any logical advantage to this approach?
Quoted from WJxxxx:Why would the creator of the rules have to be the one who codes it?
Because that’s how every pin company has done it. Sure, sometimes the designer weighs in with what they think the rules should be - and that’s great collaboration between the creative forces. I don’t think anyone has ever had someone totally independent of design/coding create the rules. I think those propping up Bowden as the next Lyman or Keefer might want to keep their expectations in check..writing is one thing, executing the final product is another.
Quoted from Fulltilt:It's the pile on mentality of so many here that have absolutely NOTHING to do with Zidware or Deeproot.
Holding people accountable for their actions isn't necessarily "pile on"...and one didn't have to be a customer of Zidware or Deeproot to have an opinion on the ongoing story. Even if we didn't buy a game, we've seen our friends lose time, money, and health over this situation. This is a hobby where community and friendship is important...those who are holding up a mirror to the truth are often doing so because the don't like seeing their friends hurt...no one owes Jpop or DR silence while they tinker. At the end of the day I think we all want them to either fulfill their promises, or go away. It's the limbo that hurts everyone, and it's a topic worth discussing....hence, this thread & its activity.
Quoted from woodworker:Does Steven Bowden
Ever give any info
About production?
Why would he know? He’s paid to write rules.
Quoted from waveman:Oh I don't know -- their thread has had zero activity for the past 45 days (or is there another one besides https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/another-new-pin-reveal-12-16-punny-factory ?)
That’s because no one cares. Funny how pinball works, sometimes. DR has sales, but can’t get games built. Punny looks like they can build games, but no one wants to buy it.
Quoted from NevadaNutJob:I still don’t get why Goonies is a license you’d want . Zero interest
80's Nostalgia sells pins. Look at GB. I guess you didn't grow up with the movie? Most people in their late 30's-mid40's love it. It's iconic, funny, has great characters and great music. Would sell great to the pinball demo & do well on location if locations ever come back.
Do I think DR will ever actually make it? No. 
Quoted from wrb1977:It would be nice if the pinball community, that claims to love this hobby, would be supportive of anyone having the balls to try to build a new game for “us” and not be so damn critical and holier than thou.
The people who love this hobby don't like to be ripped off, see their friends ripped off, or blustery big talkers with no proof they can start/run a manufacturing company. Jpop's been screwing this community since he started taking money for Magic Girl. Why would anyone be supportive of him and his balls? Robert has done nothing but swagger, talk, and waste money...why should anyone support that? A hobby that's been through the deception and loss of money due to Jpop, Skit-B, Heighway, and Dutch doesn't owe these people anything. They deserve all the critique they get. Respect must be earned. If they can prove that they're capable of manufacturing, shipping, and supporting games - then they will earn support. Until then, the repeated history of pinball startups tells us what we need to know about this company, and the onus of tearing down the obvious red flags is on them. We don't need them. They need us.
Quoted from wcbrandes:I know you are gonna hate me for this, however I am starting to respect Barry and what he is doing at Dutch. Was he overly cocky at the beginning....sure however he has buckled down and created a real production line (be it a small one) and is pumping out games now with even support from rensh for repairs and parts as well as hired back to get code up to speed. Anyway the point is, of anyone on your list I have to give him some credit now for buckling down on his own and keeping the line going while getting back to the early achievers what they put their hard earned money up for. This is to your point.....earning my respect!
I think they're still in the process of earning respect. I don't respect him for selling games to new buyers while 100's of people who paid 5 or 6 years ago still have nothing and probably won't for years. In any case - my point was about the red flags of the past. Newb companies talking big & blowing it at the real challenge of making pinball: Manufacturing.
Quoted from wrb1977:I stand by my statement...1 game 7 years ago does not warrant his constant “know it all” attitude and criticism of JPop and deeproot. The recycled and regurgitated one-liners “purple vomit”, Python Anghelo Cyclone remake, old mechs, Starbucks addict, RAZA indecipherable storyline (wrong!), no zombies (wrong again!), etc etc etc, blah blah blah, is tiresome. Heck needs some new material.
Ben does in fact know it all when it comes to Jpop & how the pinball/manufacturing biz works. He has every right to critique...as he was sucked into the scam vortex, but was smart enough to escape it quickly.
Keep telling the truth peppered with humor, Ben!
Quoted from wrb1977:Those of us in on RAZA already paid the deposit so you can stop with your holy crusade as I can flush my money down a toilet if I want. Maybe that’s what I did with RAZA and I’m cool with it! Got it???
This isn't just about you. This is about every person that Jpop and his Ponzi pinball scam has hurt. Just because you're OK with losing money and ignoring years of facts & red flags doesn't mean a pinball hobby message board owes you or DR silence. They will be held accountable & talked about...I mean...that's what Pinside is for...talking...about pinball...right? So, until this story concludes...discussing it will continue!
Quoted from Bublehead:If there is one lesson that comes out of this, most likely it will be the reinforcement of the notion that pinball addicts are worse than heroine junkies, and they will throw any kind of money at someone to get their next "just got to have it" fix.
If they have a “just gotta have it” fix, they should just buy games that exist or from companies that have track records. If you love Jpop THAT much, just get TOM, WCS, CV, and TOTAN & call it a day. If you need to spend more & feel special, track down a sample CV or something lol.
Quoted from RobT:For those who preordered a RAZA from Deeproot, what objective evidence do they have to believe that they are going to get a game?
You can’t reason with a cult member. The spell only breaks when the leader goes down. I was at Chicago Expo ‘13 or ‘14 at Jpop’s seminar. All he had to show was some concept art for RAZA. I felt like I was in a room of brainwashed fools. They were “ooooh” and “ahhhhh”. My friend next to me said “OMG, look at that!” I said “What? It’s a concept painting”. He says with huge bug eyes and a happy smile “That’s going to be on the display!!!!!” I said “No, it’s not - that’s a single drawing. Who’s going to create assets & animate it all? Who’s going to program it? Who’s going to build it?” He was in a full trance...”but but but, look at that art!!!!” When the Zidware ship crashed, he snapped out of it.
Truly one is the most bizarre experiences I’ve had in this hobby. I can’t figure out why Jpop has the power to manipulate so many and pull them out of reality. Now he’s done that to RM, and RM’s done it to the new buyers.
Quoted from captainadam_21:How are stern, jjp, and spooky still churning out machines if there is such a massive part shortage?
They know how to factory.
For real tho, there are only 2 ways forward:
1.). Commit to being a Stern...which would mean get parts for the next few games stocked, hire enough people to keep a factory churning...build tons of games.
You need an established brand, distributor network, and actual orders for that to work...soooo -
2.) Commit to being a Spooky. Commit to slowly building your games with a small crew.
The problem is, they've already wasted so much money on having too many designers/artists/full-time employees/leases to EVER turn a profit.
So, they'll probably have no choice but option 3: Call it quits. Whether that happens before they commit more years & more money to building the RAZAs or after, that's the story we're waiting to see play out.
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:So what was the point of 2+ years of exclusivity?
2 years of solid paychecks that made it worth saying “no” to other pin gigs. Clearly it wasn’t worth it for one reason or another & he bounced.
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:Team page in need of at least a few key updates https://deeproottech.com/
In theory they still plan on making product created by those people....so, it’s technically not wrong. But yeah, some of them are gone.
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:Nordman and Thiel listed as exclusive
Well that’s wrong lol
Quoted from benheck:It's also why he hired a bunch of ex Disney Infinity staff so his LCD could have "Disney Quality Animations"
A true fan of Disney art would never use the word “animations”. 
Quoted from SantaEatsCheese:I wouldn't be surprised if another manufacturer ended up building the game for Deeproot... i.e. they contract it out.
No existing pinball company would waste their time.
Using some other kind of facility like Dutch did with ARA will have a learning curve & be costly...and just be more of a money pit.
Quoted from Mark1971:lmfao I have never seen a bigger group of crying complainers who never put down a penny but know it all. This is defiantly a group of weak men with nothing better to do but bitch and complain. What a bunch of whimp's
Oh hi! So...are you in the cult, or just someone who doesn't understand the history & facts?
We will be happy to deprogram and/or educate you. 
Based on your grammar and spelling, you need the education at the very least. 
Quoted from SantaEatsCheese:While this thread is active again, I'd liek to remind everyone of the math on this is the $30,000,000 investment to start up rumour is true. At $1,000 profit per machine and a 6% return on investment to investors they will literally never make any money even at 50 machines per week.
What's their stupid slogan..."Every home needs a pinball"? How many homes on Earth are there...billions!? Robert will have the last laugh! 
Quoted from Yelobird:Sorry no haven't seen any of that. Hate, assumption, spite, anger, speculation
These words don't mean what you think they mean. Negative views of DR, Robert and Jpop aren't just some random partisan stance. There is a true story filled with facts that have led us to this point, and to dismiss it using these simplistic terms is nothing but gaslighting & doesn't add anything to the discussion besides showing your cultish allegiance.
Quoted from Yelobird:Why does this have to be so personal with those that don't agree with you?
Jpop made it personal by stealing money from my friends.
Robert made it personal by hiring Jpop & then insulting everyone in the pinball biz like he knows how to do anything.
It's not about "agreeing". Again, you're approaching this like a political argument.
You like to take swipes at people like me for being full of hate and whatnot...one person from the pre-order thread sent me strange cryptic threats like a Batman villain....another threatened my child publicly on the forum. I don't even engage with these people, but I give them downvotes and they go full EVIL on me. This is why I classify Deer Poop is a dangerous cult. No matter what facts are out there about what horrible people they are and how unlikely it is they'll ever make anything - they have sycophants like you who try to gaslight and flip it on us...like we've done something wrong...and even worse, sycophants who intend to cause harm. THAT'S personal....and I didn't start it.
Quoted from metallik:Please show where this happened. I saw the post in question and all they did was call *you* out for posting like an ass with your kid as an avatar (at which point you changed to your anti-deeproot cult pic)
Mods removed it. Threat was implied & they agreed. Don't gaslight & defend vile people who threaten children.
Quoted from jawjaw:What game did they produce?
Celts.
Quoted from NoQuarters:You liked it when I had 30 year old machines. And even older. I thought you liked all kinds of tea. New, old, lots of good stuff out there.
I have not played a Fathom that I recall - but I would like to. Looks like a pretty neat game. I think it's a good idea to remake some older games. It has a place. Haggis will actually make and produce the games.
10 years or so ago, Fabulous Fantasies embarked on a remake of King of Diamonds...claiming Stern's games were to complex and pinball players didn't like them, so they wanted to make a more classic & cheaper alternative. They ended up only making 50 games. No one wanted it.
How things have changed...remaking old games & charging more than Sterns lol....pinball be crazy. I wonder how that King of Diamonds remake would do today....probably still poorly. Underwater mermaid fantasy stuff is still cooler than cards.
Quoted from NoQuarters:Everything has it's place - if it's actually produced.
Not 10 years ago. Today, seems like it lol
...then again, Cosmic Carnival didn't sell shit....and neither will Punny Factory.
Quoted from Haymaker:Really? I never heard of this, thats wild. Seems like remaking an EM would be way harder and more costly than a SS, plus a way more niche market. I think even 10 years ago some remakes could have been a success, that just seems like poor market planning to me tbh.
Well, even though it looked & played like an EM, it was made with SS parts.
https://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=5239
I'm sure it could have been marketed better...Herb had a bit of an ego and projected his own tastes on the market. He hated new Sterns, and thought every pinball buyer just MUST be clamoring for the classic he loved so much.
Quoted from NoQuarters:Marketing and who is making a game has a bearing for sure.
That is, if they are actually making a game. Have to remember what thread we are in.
Yeah, it's not entirely dissimilar. Robert, like Herb - thinks he knows as an absolute what the market wants. Herb thought it was simpler classic games. Robert thinks it's an iPad strapped to a game. Ultimately, for as many armchair quarterbacks want to rag on Stern for not giving people what they want...they are literally continually giving people what they want.
Quoted from NoQuarters:Haggis will sell some Fathoms. And produce them.
I should be skeptical given the history of boutiques & startups...but I'm getting more of a Spooky vibe from them vs. a Dutch or DR vibe, so I have no reason to doubt they'll deliver as promised until there's a good reason to. Having Planetary's blessing is a plus.
Quoted from flynnibus:Not really a fair comparison
Wasn’t attempting one. Was just reminiscing and rambling.
Quoted from Bublehead:I had a distant second cousin who died by the belt... can you imagine his poor wife opening up the garage door to find him swinging from the rafters, porn laid out in a circle around him, pants around his knees, and his flag pole at full mast. I was 15 close to 16 and we are on the way to the funeral and my mom looked over the back of the front seat at all of us three siblings and says, "you might as well hear this from me, your cousin died of autoerotic asphyxiation" and went on about what it was and how he was found by his wife. Color me gobsmacked.
Is this one of Deeproot’s themes? 
Quoted from RCA1:Is this a Zen question?
"What is the difference between Jpop making a game, and Jpop not making a game?"
If Jpop makes a foam game in a forest and no one is around to see it, is it still purple?
Quoted from Mbecker:What’s in Utah?
Mormons.
Quoted from Bublehead:I stopped looking for a job in pinball when I landed a job as a programmer for a large national bank. I guess if DR really wanted to up their burn rate they could hire me, but that would be lunacy... there are so many more affordable programmers living in their parents basements right now who could do just as much thumb-sitting and twiddling at bargain rates, they could hire 4 of them and probably make out ok... thats a 4 to 1 savings on thumb sitting.
I don't know anything about programming! I would be the perfect hire!
Quoted from Scandell:Just caught up on 360 posts of absolutely nothing. I’ll add some actual meat.
Robert has zero understanding, respect or reverence for manufacturing and production of any kind. To say he bit off more than he could chew here in Utah is an understatement.
When I was recruited to Deeproot back in 2019, the recruiter/employee lead with this
“well...there’s a rich guy that wants to start an animation and visual effect empire in Salt Lake City. He wants to hire 200 animation artists within the next year. He says he wants to be “a Sony”. He is first starting in pinball then wants to branch out and dominate in other fields. It sounds crazy but that’s what he says”
So many stories.
Robert inquired numerous times how many employees other Utah studios Had...cause he wanted to know when he could state that he had the “biggest animation company in Utah”.
Less than a few months later he informed us “the money pipeline has dried up”.
He’s a real planner.
His leadership team “the board” here in Utah had a number of back-biters and con-artists that bickered endlessly and had little competency to actually produce 3D animation. When Robert didn’t know how to manage them, he would hire a new outsider that said they could shape things up and threw them on “the board” as well. It became a lion’s den...hyena den. To be fair There were a few great talented guys in there too...but they didn’t have the leadership experience to keep their hands on the wheel and guide Robert.
For all of us that worked there...it was draining. After my first week, I think 10-15 people individually asked me “what made you think coming here was a good idea?” I replied...
“I like pinball”
Holleeee shiiiit. How many people’s lives did this F up? Did a lot of people pick up their families & move there planning on making a new life there? Homes sold/purchased? Did people end up staying in Utah or going back to where they moved from?
Quoted from Scandell:Actually does sound like a decent podcast conversation. Hahaha
I’ll start a podcast just to interview you. Artist to artist, real talk! 
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:While I think I would really enjoy hearing the dirt, I'm sure you know the risks of getting more involved just to satiate the crowd's desire for entertainment.
Yeah, Kaneda has already said that Robert has threatened him...and I wouldn't be surprised if Scandell has some type of NDA. I'd love to hear the story, but we might have to wait until DR is officially gone.
Quoted from RobT:Macaroni and cheese for a year?
And this is a sacrifice how, exactly?
They gave themselves the diabeetus....FOR PINBALL!
Quoted from rai:I haven’t read this whole thread. What’s the current state of affairs with DR?
Read the whole thread. In a few weeks, present us with your findings.
Quoted from BC_Gambit:And given all the crazy stupid, it is easy to lose sight of Robert and JPoP being true pinheads.
Who am I to argue.
0E108BE3-412E-4AF6-8DD6-DD5C173D1B4F (resized).jpegQuoted from NashtyFunk:I’m staying in. The update was trash. If they get machines out at all my best guess would be 4th quarter.
Gonna be ride or die with it though. Guess we’ll see.
Hey so, can you send me money for a pinball machine? I’ll also send you nothing, since you seem to be cool with that concept. I’ll enjoy your money. Win win! Thanks! 
Quoted from NashtyFunk:There’s enough money and ego in this project to fully abandon it.
That’s actually the problem. Too much money spent already to ever make any back ever. What’s the point of continuing?
Quoted from Kkoss24:So please tell me why you would try to slam a company that is giving us another option in this great,great hobby ?
Do you seriously not know the history of Jpop in the last decade of this hobby? Couple that with Robert’s ego & insulting everyone in the biz - why do we owe them anything?
Quoted from Chalkey:They'd need to have Bowden come out, tell people exactly what is actually going on at deeproot, and why. Then act right for another 2 game releases and they'd probably be ready for actual public support by the third.
Bowden doing a press conference wouldn’t change anything...the problem is they are not a manufacturing company & never prepped properly to be one. They wasted money on the wrong things - like Bowden. He’s a nice guy, yeah yeah - but you don’t pay a guy for years who doesn’t program to sit there & write tomes of rules for games that cannot exist if a manufacturing facility is not in place.
Quoted from Kkoss24:Yes I’ve read up on it and it reminds me of me
You might be insulting yourself here. If Jpop reminds you of yourself, does that mean you're an aloof scammer? If RM reminds you of yourself, are you bloated ego narcissist?
Quoted from Kkoss24:I was going nowhere young and when the light clicked on I was motivated .Motivated to the point where I wouldn’t accept failure .
This doesn't sound like either of these people at all. There's a different between being motivated & being delusional (while harming others in the process).
Quoted from Kkoss24:No I’ve never even thought of scamming people but this dude (JPOP) has designed some all time greats and some that could have been
The key part of his story is that he worked for Bally Williams, a manufacturing company that had teams of managers, accountants, engineers, artists, marketing teams, etc...mass produced pinball ONLY works as a huge collaborative effort. He has such an ego, he never absorbed this...which has led us to where we are now.
Quoted from Kkoss24:Look I feel bad for those that were burned and I do not know much about Robert but what I do know is there’s a lot put into this company
A lot of what? Money and words? Don't be fooled by rich people and their words. Always remember the phrase: "Show me, don't tell me".
Quoted from Kkoss24:If they just get this RAZA out and push forward we will have a new style of pinball to chose from
There have been plenty of "new styles" of pinball. The market shows people just want pinball pinball. If you're really hankering for something "new", get yourself a Revenge from Mars. Played mine last nite...friggin' animated holograms you can hit with the ball! AWESOME! ...cue people telling us how much it sucks lol...there's also Multimorphic P3, a totally new style of pinball. Available now. Go get one. RAZA isn't really that "new"...it's "just a game" with an iPad glued to it. Ask yourself - what sounds more satisfying as a pinball experience: Hitting a target/scoop/combo and getting the feedback of a reward, or looking down at an iPad and pressing a screen to get a reward? It's a horrible idea that only someone who truly doesn't understand pinball would create.
Quoted from Kkoss24:That would spread sales out and force everyone to up theyre game
Stern sales have proven the market doesn't care about "upping the game"...they just want fun games with themes they love. Period.
Quoted from Kkoss24:Am i nuts or does this babe sense ?
....um...well...lol
Quoted from Kkoss24:Lmao need to sleep “make sense”
You can edit your posts, bruh!
Quoted from frolic:If paychecks are still coming, that accomplishes a lot.
Or...if paychecks are owed...that's incentive to keep quiet, too. "Zip it or you'll never get the pay you're owed".
Quoted from flynnibus:It's not like they are selling - they just need to worry about a run on the bank
Does that even matter after the millions they’ve blown & have no hope to recover? Profit seems irrelevant to this operation.
Quoted from NashtyFunk:It's not the solution I wanted, but I still want my game and am confident that eventually they'll get 100 of em out.
Where does this confidence come from?
Derp Root: We put the CON in “confidence”!!!
Quoted from NashtyFunk:The scale of the operation,
What scale? There’s still no proof of manufacturing capability. Most important creatives have left. There’s no scale.
Quoted from NashtyFunk:Based on the long term vision of the company and the fact that they didn't throw in the towel after 130 initial orders, and most of all Roberts ego.
His “vision” and ego are why they’re in this mess.
Quoted from NashtyFunk:It's not my preferred position for sure, but I'm not willing to get out of it and if I get burned I get burned. I don't think I will but it's not gonna ruin my day. It was my decision and I cant be anything other than hopeful at this point. I guess I could be salty, but I don't have room for another pin as it is and need to sell a couple anyway.
Please send me money, Nash! I’ll tell you I’ll send you something, but I won’t...and you’ll totally be cool with it! Thanks!
Quoted from NashtyFunk:Yeah, I've heard that from a few people, and it's fair enough I guess. I used a very specific credit card for that order on purpose. If I never get my machine, I do have recourse. That's part of why I'm not as worried. It's not like I wired from my checking account or anything.
Nah, for real - I’ll promise you something waaaaay cooler than RAZA & I also promise I’ll send you nothing. It’ll be great. Wire me $$$$ from your checking account right now! You’ll love it! It’s nothing!
Quoted from spfxted:Talk about being rich....look what I brought home today!
[quoted image]
Shrink wrapped turds? Is this a hobby? 
Quoted from RobT:What the heck?
Those are pure vegan. Nothing but leaves. I thought you'd be all over that!
I only smoke broccoli, bro!
Quoted from aeneas:Tbh 10 years ago every one was asking for original themes and said they were tired of Sterns movie/rock titles.
By "everyone" you mean the vocal people on rec.games.pinball who THOUGHT they were the voice of the hobby, but were just a small percentage & not likely to buy new games anyway. Also, that's when new games were $3500. What was Dialed In? $7500-$9500? I love Pat Lawlor's original games like Gofers & Road Show...but I paid ~$2000 for each...If Dialed In was $2k, sure, hook me up...lol
Quoted from Bublehead:I don't know about anyone else, but dead hooker in the trunk is the basis of A LOT of humor in the comedy world... I think I have seen more than a handful of the top comedians do some version of the theme in a joke... or used it as the punchline. If Jokerman can't take one, why is his handle Jokerman?!? This is an enigma wrapped in a paradox for sure.
He should change his handle to LivingHookerMan. That would make things much clearer.
Quoted from FalconPunch:What’s the difference between JPOP and a dead hooker? JPOP still sucks
…and takes yer money.
Quoted from NashtyFunk:I kind of want that playfield. I like the natural wood grain look with the art. Be cooler on a pinball machine though.
Cirqus Voltaire has a similar style with wood showing. Get one of those…it actually exists!
Quoted from benheck:I'm against cancel culture, I believe in 2nd chances. But at some point you have to stop throwing money down a bottomless pit.
Jpop’s employment has nothing to do with “cancel culture”. You’re either good or bad at your job. Jpop isn’t entitled to employment in the pinball biz….he’s bad at his job, and there’s a reason Stern & JJP never hired him. If he’s fired for incompetence, that’s not being cancelled. That’s consequence due to his performance.
Quoted from TreyBo69:Is Ultraman like Power Rangers for boomers?
Kinda….it’s after Boomers’ time though, my parents wouldn’t know it. It’s the like the Batman 66 of Power Rangers.
Quoted from Makakka:Halloween/Ultraman sells poorly compared to RM. Low traffic in the first 15 minute fomotime (RM was a hot mess). So the time for RM to update has come.
Dang, you really hitched yourself to the wrong boat. The Titanic.
What an embarrassment for DR….I mean, another one for the pile.
I’m sure all 1750 new Spooky buyers will have their games before DR ships anything.
Quoted from jawjaw:I don't see how you can compare a startup to a company with library of games and years of experience. Didn't Spooky almost go under selling their first game? I remember it not being received very well and took a while to sell.
Easy to compare.
One was started by nice people with some manufacturing experience with little money. They produced what was logical for their experience & budgets.
One was started by a not-so-nice person & a problematic designer with no manufacturing experience and blew millions with nothing to show for it.
Spooky learned a lesson with their first theme - an original IP must be experienced on location or at shows to sell. They’ve been licensed ever since (aside from TNA since that already had demand from being played at shows.). DR could have easily learned from this. Launch with a hit theme. Jpop isn’t a “brand” anyone cares about…and at this point the people who do know who he is view his involvement as a negative.
Quoted from benheck:AP picks terrible themes. Oktoberfest, where's the wish fulfillment? Anybody can go get drunk.... Who cares?
Hot Wheels... Your target demo has sports cars in their garage. They aren't 8 year old boys wishing they had a license.
Any game, movie etc needs to fulfill a fantasy.
I’ve always wanted a a dinosaur to eat my balls - BOOM - Jurassic Park!!!
Quoted from screaminr:Let's say you could choose ACDC with the original DMD or one with a LCD screen that played live concert footage and their film clips .
It's a no brainer what most people would choose .
Color DMD
AC/DC’s dots in color are awesome. I’m a big fan of retro games & pixel art, and AC/DC’s is fantastic. Great character design & animation - and DMDs clearly shows that on a black background. Really easy to glance & see what’s going on…LCD games, you really have to trap & then concentrate for a while to figure out what you’re looking at.
Quoted from pookycade:This is why licensed themes will become the norm
Will become? They’ve been the norm for 20+ years.
Quoted from BMore-Pinball:What fantasy of yours is Halloween fulfilling?
Survival. I think that’s the general psychology with horror movies/games - facing your fears, the adrenaline rush of being scared and living to tell the tale.
Quoted from spfxted:Yeah! Memory Lane! Early on the SKIT-B guys wanted to give me a tee shirt. I said I don't wear them only button shirts. So they sent me this in 2XL! A collector's item for sure!
[quoted image][quoted image]
…yeah, keep it on the collector shelf. If you wear that outside, everyone will be like “Shit Mask? What’s Shit Mask?”
Quoted from benheck:Maybe Robert took Pinside's advice and put all hands on deck to get Goonies ready.
I mean, if they actually make RAZA, it would give people confidence for Goonies, a game people ACTUALLY WANT.
But if DR is trying to actually make games, and they do 2 original themes in a row? They're toast.
Could they even succeed with Goonies at this point? There are two outcomes.
1. No one trusts them, so no one orders.
2. Nostalgia leads to blind buys & decent sales numbers…but they can’t produce because they don’t know how to run a manufacturing business, leading to a Lebowski situation where 7 years later original buyers don’t have games.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:Of course there’s customers for a goonies
Machine, they found buyers for teenage mutant turtles, right?
Nostalgia is fun and cute but I gotta draw the line somewhere. Saw goonies for first time in 30 years during pandemic, and while it is quality filmmaking it’s DEFINITELY a kids movie. I’d be pretty embarrassed to have one in the game room.
Goonies has dick jokes. It's not a "kids" theme like Puppy Dog Pals or something. Even TMNT, which you love to mock, is essentially the same as any Marvel super hero pin. Mutant super heroes fight ninjas & interdimensional villains. There's a wide canyon between toddler properties like Barney and Dora the Explorer and "tween" properties like Goonies and Turtles.
Quoted from TreyBo69:I need to try to watch The Goonies sometime. I feel like it is before my time by just a few years. My sister-in-law is five years older and said she loved it as a kid (but hasn't seen it since). It seems like it's a theme for very specific and narrow age group. At least with TMNT it's still a popular franchise with kids and they still make videos/toys/clothes/etc
The reason it has legs is that it's not just for kids. It's an all ages movie, there's stuff anyone can enjoy. There are definitely jokes I didn't get as a kid, like when they break the penis off a statue:
"That's my mom's favorite part!"
"You wouldn't be here if it wasn't!"
It's got a great cast like Josh Brolin before he was Thanos, Sean Astin before LOTR, Joey Pants before Matrix, and Corey Feldman before he sucked! Oh, and it's got Throw Momma From The Train lady!
Quoted from TreyBo69:I feel like the movies made for me as a kid in the 90s sucked compared to a lot of the 80s movies for kids.
80's kids movies were generally made seriously as "films" and didn't talk down to kids. Once the 90's hit, it was more loud/bonkers/x-treeeme Nickelodeon/Disney Channel style movies that were supposedly tailored SPECIFICALLY for kids, but would annoy most people. I think one of the reasons Harry Potter movies were so well received is because they felt like 80's kids movies. Stakes & characters felt "real" (despite the magical fantasy story), and it didn't talk down to its audience - which then allowed adults to enjoy it, too.
Quoted from BWT67:Can someone bullet point RAZA history for me, so I don't need to read the 395 pages?
This company legit? Has the machine been released?
Ready? I'll try to be concise, but it's hard with this mess.
-Jpop takes money to build ~20 Magic Girls (2011)
-Jpop realizes that amount of money makes no sense, so starts a pyramid scheme. Takes money for ~100 RAZAs to pay for MG. Then takes money for Alice In Wonderland to pay for MG.
-Fails.
-Convinces some Chicago locals to start American Pinball, with an unplayable Houdini mockup.
-Fails, AP salvages the project with other people and becomes a pinball company.
-After failing again & owing hundreds of games to people, for some reason RM thinks it's a good idea to hire Jpop to head up his new pinball company, Derp Poop.
-RM brags about how pinball is easy and he's going to make more games than anyone with higher quality & cheaper prices. Claims they won't do pre-orders.
-RM wastes money hiring tons and tons of people to design games & create art and sound....ignores manufacturing, just as Jpop's past failures did.
-Years go by, they have nothing to show for it.
-2020, they show a proto of RAZA and invite "pinball media", they all hate it.
-Time time time time time....
-They try FOMO pre-orders, claim they'll only make the amount of games they sell within a limited time window, barely sell any.
-Now they have people's money, still don't have functioning factory for manufacture.
-So now people who paid for this game like 10 years ago, and a few new pre-orderers are stuck waiting...
-Waiting waiting waiting....
That's where the story is right now. 
Quoted from benheck:It's really missing in pinball I agree. I really like the new Elvira but I wouldn't call it funny per se.
Rick & Morty, bruh!!!!
Quoted from benheck:Played a Mando Pro and there's a lot of "Stop everything and look at this footage we spent a fortune licensing!"
Some people like that. It’s a “reward” for a mode completed. Even DMD games like LOTR had “finale” scenes….and like old games, a double flipper press on Mando skips it if you wanna keep moving.
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:New Glassdoor review (and the previous two)
https://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Deeproot-Tech-Reviews-E2552550.htm
Ya know, when the pre-order peeps are like "why do you care who I give money to"?
This.
I won't support a guy who doesn't pay his workers. End of story.
Quoted from Bublehead:It would be a wonder if this this thread was NOT toxic.
This thread is the antidote to toxins. It’s pretty chill, actually - seems filled with rational people having nice conversation.
Then again there are lots of posts I can’t see. lol
Quoted from toyotaboy:Figure between JPOP and Barry they are a combine salary of $150k/year (roughly)
There's probably at least one electrical engineer, a few techs at minimum.. Steve Bowden, add another $200k
I think you’re waaaaaay overestimating what people in pinball make, let alone people working for a startup. But hey, if Bowden has been able to milk RM for that much, the more power to him.
Quoted from Scandell:One day, I’ll be able to fill you all in on the “Farewell Dinosaur” crap.
Let me guess - that’s how RM saw the other pinball companies? They’re the dinosaurs? He’s gonna make them extinct?
Quoted from NoQuarters:Looks like We have a Winner ! Ding Ding.
The preorder was to judge interest in sales. The wind down is all about saving face, egos and creating a cloud of circumstances beyond control. Creating a narrative for the end - we're sorry it just couldn't be done due to all this stuff - not the arrogance, incompetence and excess baggage brought along by having Jpop in this venture.
I thought just maybe they'd squeak some games out the door before they would fold, but with each passing month I think the likelihood of that becomes more remote.
This is literally the same problem Jpop had with MG. The money didn’t make sense. He could not produce 19 Magic Girls for $16k each (or whatever the original price was). Thus, he took money for 2 more games to finance the first. DR expected 1000’s (although that still wouldn’t have put them in the black). Making games right now just loses more money. If they announce a licensed game to get more orders (to help finance RAZA), my eyes might roll so hard they pop out.
Quoted from flynnibus:But this is a conclusion they could have reached long before they actually opened orders for RAZA. They knew they wouldn't get huge amounts of new orders
We knew this.
They should have known this. But there are certain types of “leaders” who create their own reality & try to will it into existence. They ignore the facts, and instead believe that projecting success will result in success.
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:Was not there drama when an aggrieved dutch pinball customer reached out to universal pictures about the status of the big Lebowski license?
That was me! Ahhh, memories…. 
I was a Dutch-fanboy. I bought BOP 2.0 #1 and #56 TBL….but after the lies were exposed & they went dark, I wanted answers. I’m not a “man of faith”…I don’t trust those who break my trust…I did what I had to do. My talks with Universal is what lead to my TBL refund.
Quoted from adborto:Is there any chance that someone bought them out?
What is there of value to buy?
Quoted from benheck:Don't worry guys, Robert's latest business venture is already up and running!
I hear Jpop's pulling down 125k (plus dental) to run the stand.
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Corn is easy. Quad harvesting.
Quoted from benheck:Robert, I know this is me giving advice without a license or some shit, but maybe, just maybe when EVERYONE, and I mean EVERYONE warns you against hiring someone...
.... Maybe don't hire them?
Robert needs to get together with Tommy Tallarico. Has anyone been following that Intellivision Amico mess in the video game world? Very very similar.
Quoted from TreyBo69:Much like deeproot, parts of the logo are very Freudian
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I love keeping up with all the terrible console stuff, like the Atari VCS that also came out recently. The best was the Coleco Chameleon collapse
Yeah, all these people who try to get a piece of the retro pie but don't understand the market at all is pretty astounding. I casually knew the Chameleon guy from the arcade auction scene...when I saw he was trying to make a weird fake retro console, it was pretty fascinating...and a totally predictable failure.
The ongoing saga of Tommy, his fake useless console, and his narcissism and drama are just fascinating to watch.
Quoted from benheck:Before the Chameleon Mike Kennedy tried to make, what was it? Retro VCS or something? His big plan was that it would have CARTRIDGES!
He called me once asking advice. Tried to be nice but the guy didn't understand that people aren't nostalgic for cartridges they're nostalgic for the GAMES. But.... He ran an online auction site so his brain only "thinks" in terms of physical media
People do like cartridges - but there are plenty of consoles that exist with cartridges to collect - he wasn’t offering anything compelling or desirable to that market. Plus, the system itself was a hoax…so…yeah. lol
Likewise, Tommy is going for the “casual” gamer…but they already have everything they’d want with mobile & Nintendo…and then Tommy will say something stupid like “yeah, if you want games with rape, get a Switch”. He’s such a clown.
Seems like the Blaze Evercade is actually doing a nice job of making a “new retro” system. There’s a portable & a TV unit that are pretty cheap, and all the cartridges are compilations for $20.
Quoted from TreyBo69:I’m ordering a Play date. They get that it’s about nice hardware and eclectic designs from various indie developers, not trying to compete with real video game consoles or mini PCs
Yeah, I’m totally going in on a Playdate. Looks super cute & weird. Sorry, Tommy! Lol
Quoted from pinballrockstar:Never heard RM speak before up until now since i rarely come here.
I check in for news sometimes since i am actually in on a deeproot machine.
But this is really bad.
Is that guy actually okay?
Cuz this sounds very fucking strange to me.
Wow - how on earth did you buy from this guy without hearing/reading this stuff? It’s been out there in broad daylight since day 1.
Quoted from ufotofu:Robert's enunciation of the word "opportunity" is really grating. He pronounces that word like he's never heard another human speak before.
I think it’s a Utah accent. He says “playfilds” like those Utah podcasters….also “not a dint”. 
Quoted from master_of_chaos:Why does everyone want DR to fail?
That's a simplification of a complex situation.
Jpop owes people games/money. RM hired him despite this & bragged that he would outdo every company making pinball. We've got someone who put members of our hobby through hell & a blowhard narcissist....we don't owe them good vibes for success. They've shown us who they are. The onus is on THEM to produce something and change their self-created reputation. It's really not about "wanting them to fail", they've already failed....we just want them to acknowledge their failure and go away. The pinball community doesn't need them...and aside from a handful of people, no one wants them.
Quoted from PhilGreg:Don't want to go OT from the woodrail discussions, but there were Amico comparisons a few pages back - they just put this out, looks like they're producing *something* (now how much sense does any of it make I'm too disconnected with gaming to know...)
I just see shrink wrapped boxes. Show me carts & a working system and maybe we’ve got something.
Also on the new-retro front, Playdate went up for sale today and sold their 20,000 unit 2021 allotment in about 30 min. They’ve sent preview units to gaming media…totally transparent. Excited for this goofy little yellow system!
Quoted from TreyBo69:I was able to snag one in the first batch.
I’m still waiting for them to price the pen stand. I’d like one if it isn’t over $100, but I’m afraid it will be.
Same, I ordered one within the first few minutes. I got the magnetic purple case too
I love purple & Jpop still can’t win me over! Lol
Quoted from greatwichjohn:Contracting out production is the only logical way to move forward.
There’s nothing logical about how DR has conducted business.
Contracting would involve another business, one where every dime is important. We saw what happened when Dutch tried to contract - the contractor didn’t get paid, stopped, and held games hostage. There are already reports of DR not paying employees. What contractor in their right mind would want to get involved with this, unless paid in full up front?
The biggest issue with DR is that there is no logical endgame. They reached a point where profit is impossible.
Quoted from greatwichjohn:This weird world, my guess would be Homepin
Oh sure, let’s get two egotistical people with poor reputations together. That’s a recipe for success.
Quoted from Richthofen:Ok so what legal issues would they have that’s preventing a build?
Maybe Stern patented “pinball” lol
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:HOW IT STARTED
"How many employees do I need to be able to say deeproot is the biggest animation company in Utah?"
HOW IT'S GOING
I always thought it was super sketch that he only showed their first names. No way to look up what their past work & credentials are. Might as well be stock photos.
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:Look, Rarehero, they even put you in the game!
https://cdn-animation.artstation.com/p/video_sources/000/396/938/vegan-critic-turnaround-001.mp4
[quoted image]
You cracked the code! I’m the one suing for them not getting the rights to my likeness!!!
Quoted from jonesjb:I remember hearing they were to be released earlier this year, but I haven’t had an opportunity to play any on location yet.
Haha, good one!
Oh, you’re serious? They don’t exist. That’s why you haven’t played one.
Quoted from jonesjb:Hopefully those who preordered get their game soon, do we know when they will be released?
Never.
Just make some tea and read this thread, all the answers are here.
Quoted from 27dnast:Ok. Hard pass up, I get that. But that doesn’t have anything to do with telling a potential customer base that the world behind the curtain is going to blow everyone away. Know what I mean?
This is such a weird situation. Something doesn’t add up…
He’s a fanboy who was offered a paying fanboy dream job. That’s all there is to it. There was no benefit for him to be skeptical. He was getting paid & working with a bunch of legit designers. He’s not the business guy or manufacturing guy….not his department.
Quoted from Mr68:I sold my pre-order spot, to Kaneda.
He sold it to the Banning CA pinball museum, which is gonna be all auctioned off in Sept. Wanna finally get your MG, Kim? Buy it at the auction!
Quoted from Mr68:Deep Thoughts Part 3 is up
More games than anyone else in 2019!!!!
70407D44-DFE1-4D6C-9C60-186016214148.gifQuoted from blueberryjohnson:In Memoriam
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3E8BE559-9874-4B06-AD4B-6724E2D4B1FE.gifQuoted from BMore-Pinball:From the start DeepRoot should of been a 100% design house only and worked closely with a contract manufacturer during the process to make sure what they were deigning was compatible with mass production.
Dutch showed that contract manufacturing is just another way to get F’d.
Robert should have followed the Spooky model. Start small, get a game out, learn & improve as you go.
Starting with hiring an unmanageable failure like Jpop & designing 20 games with a huge staff EXCEPT manufacturing people was a Day 1 nail in the coffin.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:The time and resources they spent on the PinBar could have easily equaled one released pinball machine.
Yup. They just needed to design ONE normal, functioning, nice playing, "easily" manufacturable game & ship a few hundred of them. If they wanted to do wacky gimmicky shit...maybe try it on the 3rd or 4th title.
Quoted from PismoArcade:So if this is indeed the end of Deeproot, what happens to the licenses like The Who and Goonies?
They probably never had them...and if they did, they will expire & someone else can license those themes if they want.
Quoted from flynnibus:The dude said from the start he didn't want to be like every other pinball company... Selling pinballs isn't what he set out to do.
My guess is once the dust settles a RM will come out of the woodwork and blame COVID and his team's inability to deliver on the vision as why the company failed...
Of course. Men like him NEVER take responsibility for their own ineptitude.
Quoted from RobT:It sounds like he was separating the pinball from the issues that RM may have with the SEC. But that's speculation. Iceman hasn't posted in this thread in a week.
I haven't seen him post anything in like 5 years. For me, reading these threads is like watching everyone have a shared delusion of an imaginary friend.
Quoted from denoument:I'm saying that if we wanted to advocate for RAZAs release we could.
How is that remotely relevant?
Dude started a manufacturing company and failed to build a functioning factory. "Advocating" does nothing to change that fundamental fact.
Quoted from Stemmy:DR shouldbe forced to release it to the public domain and let homebrewers create it if they want.
Why would anyone waste their time or extend the funeral that this thing should have had almost a decade ago? Just let it die already.
Quoted from RobT:JPop blamed Pinside for the (at the time, potential) downfall of Zidware many years ago. He used the words "great harm."
Yet, even with Pinsiders complaining - Stern, JJP, and Spooky thrive. Even those Dutch buttholes are actually building games Sooooo, that kinda kills the whole “it’s Pinside’s fault” argument.
Quoted from flynnibus:Because no matter how many times they get burnt by their lover - they still want the JPOP dream...
Just get a CV, TOM and/or TOTAN & live the dream. Much simpler than this decade-long nonsense.
Quoted from ZNET:Same with seeing "could OF" by English-speaking Pinsiders who hold English as their primary language. It's like the sound of chalk on a blackboard.
Ever listen to LoserKid Podcast? The way they pronounce things would probably drive you nuts. Words like “expecially”, “eltse”, and “playfilled”. I suppose odd pronunciation is a tad different than bad grammar…it’s still bizarre, though. 
Quoted from Concretehardt:I want to go on record and say that RobT was the JPOP Nostradamus, I still have his PM from 8 years ago warning me not to get involved with John
Anyone wanna go back and search rec.games.pinball? I’m pretty sure I said Jpop would fail on the day of the $16,000 Magic Girl announcement. I said the financials made zero sense. Who would be paid to program? Compose music? Create animation? Build? When RAZA was announced I said “what about the first game?!?!” It was clearly a Ponzi scheme to get more money to finish MG. Then Alice was announced…I could not believe anyone would keep sending this guy money. That’s why this is so crazy that people did it AGAIN!!!! Fool me once…but four times?!?!
Quoted from Concretehardt:Sadly frankfurter or whatever the hell that idiots name was drove me off that sight years ago.
Frank was an A-Hole, but he saw Jpop for what he was 10 years ago.
Quoted from jonesjb:I recall the zeal and gusto that Deeproot that seemed to underlie some of the communications. Have things changed that much, and why?
Simple.
When they had money & time, they could brag.
When they ran out of money & time, they couldn’t brag anymore.
Quoted from jonesjb:They seemed so proud before of everything that was to come. It’s disappointing.
Always remember when dealing with Con Men…”con” is short for “confidence.”
Quoted from JodyG:Its bad for anyone else who wants to start a pinball company some day. You telling me that large scale scammers don't hurt the pinball community as a whole?
This thread is great for anyone who wants to start a pinball company. It offers the exact roadmap to failure, which is handy if you want to avoid it. It pinpoints exactly what NOT to do. This thread is worth millions to future pinball companies.
Quoted from dr_nybble:True, although Heighway provided a very similar lesson -- that was not heeded!
Heighway actually had a factory & got some stuff built. I think the amount of money Andrew ran out of is tiny compared to what RM has wasted….but if you’re underwater by any amount, you can’t pay people…and if you can’t pay people, you’re done. The second RM hired tons of designers & a huge animation team, it was over.
Quoted from greatwichjohn:ok thought they were still being paid. weird that a bunch are not complaining. or are they.
Derp Poop has shown that it’s a very “Sign the NDA & keep quiet or RM will sue your ass” culture. Why do you think we haven’t heard a peep from Nordman or Thiel? They’ve been long gone & haven’t said jack.
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:Why would not getting signoff on one character for one of your five hundred titles sink your entire company or prevent you from putting out Raza, food truck, or the other 496 titles? It wouldn't. But maybe it's something you say to explain why the doors have to shut (temporarily, of course)
Yeah, the Goonies thing is irrelevant - just a F up for a theoretical down the road.
Quoted from RobT:This was entertaining too, as Greg was actually JOKING about how the pin might not be made until 2020
Holy moly. Honestly I have no idea how people stomach being on these rides with shady people for so long…The Dutch TBL saga started in 2014, and after their lies about production came to light in 2017, I was done….maybe that’s just me - I can’t allow myself to be tethered to bad people for the sake of a pinball machine. Had I stuck with it, I would have received my game in 2020. I believe in forgiveness & redemption…they’ll only get mine once every EA gets their game…but they’ve at least apologized and are attempting to make things right. Jpop had never given a real apology to his customers or the community…and guys like RM never apologize.
Quoted from Richthofen:Anyone who comes in and says, "Hey, Stern Sucks, I'm gonna give you Bally/WMS" instantly has these people hooked. And what better way to do that than hire JPOP, who worked at WMS.
The weird thing is that Stern has had most of the B/W talent for quite some time. Ritchie, Lawlor, Nordman, Freres, Gomez, Eddy, Sullivan, Sheats. Some have left, but plenty are still there. Sure they have their issues, but Stern kinda is the current B/W.
Quoted from gambit3113:Hey, you guys know I love me some Stern. But JP blows every Bally/Williams title out of the water? Come on.
Ok, maybe that’s a bit too far - but it’s a welcome friend in a B/W lineup. It has everything you’d expect in a B/W game. Awesome smooth shots and unique flow, ramps that feel awesome & lots of them, an animating mech with lots of personality, easily understood goals & progression to start with deep nuanced rules to keep you going for the long term.
Quoted from TreyBo69:Modern Sterns are better for home collectors due to depth of gameplay. Bally/WMS are better for location play for novice wow factor (although a Stern Pro with barely anything mechanical going on is great from an operator's maintenance perspective).
That's not a definitive true statement. Before the recent Stern boom, home collectors had been buying B/W games for their home & playing them for decades without getting bored. They generally have the perfect amount of depth & fun & wow to keep them desirable for as long as they have been. I have a variety of depth levels in my collection, and honestly when I eventually whittle things down, it'll be the "simpler" ones that make the cut, as they tend to be more quick/fast/fun/replayable than the games that you need to spend an hour on to "see it all"....and even those "simpler" ones have a perfect amount of depth and nuance for repeated play in the home. TSPP and LOTR are my deepest games, and honestly I really don't play them much anymore. Love them, great games...but I'd rather fire up TNA, Iron Man, or a B/W 90's game.
Quoted from metallik:Before I played it, I initially thought JP would be boring because it's always the same thing, catch the dino in the paddock. After getting and playing the game, I realized that was way off... this is a game where the sum is greater than the parts.
The Control room modes, T-rex events, Chaos multiball and Raptor multiball all combine to really mix the game up. If you're in Control Room, you're not advancing T-Rex as much (and vice-versa), so gameplay varies quite a bit there. I've had games where I didn't start the first T_Rex MB til I was on the 4th paddock. The smart missile's ability to instantly award valuable features can change a game dramatically in an instant. And side features like Pteranadon can be huge if played correctly.
Most importantly though, on top of all those other features, is how each dino plays differently. Paddocks are almost never a case of making a set number of shots and finishing the mode. The rescues are scattered randomly, some dinos seek out nearby employees whole others don't, some dinos are fast, some can make special moves, some are immune to tranquilizers, etc. Every paddock is a unique mini-game. Rescues and rescue streaks are important for lighting features and scoring well, so you always have to balance rescuing employees with all those other features. Tougher dinos require trap and helipad shots, which then add strategy - do you use your supertranq to stop the dino on an "easy" shot, then try to shoot the trap, heli and capture before he can move, or do you save the tranq for an employee in danger? Or leaving an employee at control room unrescued til the last minute to lure the dino all the way to the left, then try to get traps and heli going to catch the dino at the easy up the middle shots as he comes back across the island for more meals? Setting up successful traps against tough dinos later in the game requires more forethought than most pinball modes. It all combines to make gameplay unlike any other modern pinball I've played.
This.
I'm guilty of first impressions, and mine of JP were shitty.
Then I played it and was wowed by the feel and fun of it.
Then once I had 40-50 plays on it, I started to really understand the rules like Metallik described....and then it's just, wow. So fun, so satisfying, and so impressive how Elwin & Co. truly came up with something that just feels sooooo different. I can't believe how I flipped so hard from my first impressions. It makes me really want to dive deeper into some games from recent years that I wrote off.
Quoted from RobT:So you are going after a Ghostbusters LE?
Never. That's the opposite. Had a great first impression...then I played like 40 different machines and they were all anti-fun dumpster trash. As far as I'm concerned, that game doesn't exist. What are you talking about? Never heard of it.
Quoted from benheck:Don't forget this money also went towards deeproot studios and Robert's dreams of being the next John Lasseter.
He dreamt of being a disgraced abuser of women?
Quoted from adborto:Can someone call John and get his take on the situation….. seriously - someone has to know him on here.
I don't think he has any friends in the pinball community. Too many bridges burnt.
Quoted from benheck:A sane person would have simplified it: Zombie Adventureland. "You and your friends wander into an abandoned theme park swarming with zombies - can you escape?"
It would have sold more themed as Insane Clown Posse: Dark Carnival! Music theme & horror/comedy/theme park all in one!
“Magnets: How The F Do They Work” mode…game designs itself!
Dang, I just caught up on like 300 posts. My two takeaways:
1. I’m glad I put a certain Cold Guy on ignore 5 years ago, cuz I would have had to read a lot more. I suggest everyone do the same. Pinside is a lot better that way.
2. RM & Jpop will have plenty of time to finish their games IN HELL. They can team up with Trudeau.
Obvious criminal was obvious from Day 1. May this be a lesson to keep narcissists, gaslighters, cheaters, braggarts, actors of bad faith & spreaders of disinformation far away from your life.
Quoted from ForceFlow:I think that many of us thought it was just another pinball manufacturer business that was going to implode in on itself.
I don't think too many of us suspected that it was going to be part of a big $58m ponzi-like scheme that the SEC would pounce on.
I felt like this was the inevitable outcome. He was spending money like it wasn’t his - oh wait, it wasn’t. If it was his own money, he would have been waaaay more frugal and smart with it.
BTW, at what point does Pinside remove DR as a manufacturer & RAZA as a game?
Quoted from GoodOmens:That and when it comes down to it they will liquidate all assets/tech to compensate investors. I’m sure there was some good developed by deeproot other companies might want to pick up.
No one will want that toxic waste, trash, and Torah-sized tomes of boring pinball rules.
Quoted from benheck:Steve Bowden's RAZA writing was garbage.
And just because Lymon Sheets is a top player that doesn't mean all top players are going to be Coding Rule Gods.
Not to mention Steve DOESN’T CODE! Lyman writes & programs. Steve was just writing books of things - they were going to outsource the programming to some rando non-pin people.
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:Novita bh 93 here. But it's for a round bowl, I moved, ended up at place with an elongated one, and now my butt is probably as filthy as the rest of these peasants!
My old Brondell Swash was leaking, so I just replaced it with a newer model…got some fancy new things like a night light & a hot air booty blower! I feel like I’m pooping in the future!!!
Quoted from CrazyLevi:The game was always terrible. That was the most puzzling, maddening thing about it: You folks are opening yourselves up to lose thousands of dollars for what sure looks like a scam for THIS?
I’ll just never understood the time/money/emotional well-being squandered over this decade+ quest for a new Jpop game. It’s clear his peak was when B/W could get him over the finish line. Why couldn’t people just be happy with ToM, CV, and TOTAN? A fine trilogy of whimsical magical games. I enjoyed my ToM for a while & still have & enjoy my CV. Never felt the need to put him on a pedestal & squeeze something else out of him, when he proved with MG that he’s incapable. There’s a reason Stern & JJP never hired him. The B/W vets at those companies KNEW he’s a nightmare.
Quoted from Mr68:Bill Brandes. Google, Pintasia + Magic Girl
Also Millionaire Matchmaker
Quoted from djsolzs:What is wrong with people
[quoted image]
Barry has a history of believing in & spreading disinformation, and generally being on the wrong side of modern history. Not a shocker that he’s a DR cultist & immune to facts.
Quoted from pookycade:It almost seems like a bunch of people were hired at very high labor rates and then absolutely nothing actually got done.
Bingo.
Here’s how Stern operated during their “lean years”…and even then were still releasing 3-4 games a year.
1 in house designer (Borg) vs. 4 at DR
1 in house coder (Lonnie), Lyman on freelance vs. Bowden writing tomes & who knows programming
Thiel freelance per project vs. full time at DR
1 or 2 dots animators vs. what was it like 40 high quality videogame animators?
Working factory to turn the work into product vs. no factory.
Just as Jpop’s 13 MG for $16k each made no sense financially, what Robert did made no sense either.
Quoted from benheck:Rarehero what do you think the median income for a game studio CGI animator in Salt Lake City would be? Times 40, add 20% for SS, UEI, MC, insurance and that's their yearly burn for salary alone?
I'm guessing 80k so a 4m/year burn MINIMUM?
Scandell would be the one with that info! Game animation is very different from my world - but from what I hear they tend to be underpaid/overworked…with lower cost of living in SLC, he could have gotten away with paying lower - but sounds like he paid well.
Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:How about the quote where he uses GB as an example of what NOT to do when “making” (lol) a pinball machine?
The one thing he was right about. Lol
Quoted from EternitytoM83:Someone should open a bar/arcade and, since Barcade™ is already taken, call it the Pinbar™.
Pinbar: “Pinball for the masses” makes way more sense as a location lol
Quoted from NashtyFunk:All that said, it is what it is and I've said it before, I was okay taking a flyer for what I thought was a cool machine and if I end up getting burned for $10k then it's not going to ruin my day.
Even for people who can "afford" to eat that type of cash...doesn't it still burn you up on principle!? That's money that could have gone toward something for your family. Could have gone to charity to help people in need. I mean, I'm glad it won't ruin your day...but I'd still be f*cking furious that some vile maniac tricked & swindled me (and others).
Quoted from NashtyFunk:They seemed incompetent and arrogant, but I figured that ego would drive them to at least get 100 games out. Looks like I was wrong.
Incompetence + arrogance + money is almost always a deadly combo. Good people with money don't act like that. Only villains.
Quoted from TechnicalSteam:I'm sure that the people working on the game had every intention to get it out there. They probably just didn't know about all of the other things going on behind the scenes.
They HAD to know from either their previous pinball experience or knowing how other pinball companies work that something was funky. They had to know there was ZERO manufacturing plan. Then again, Barry O's recent comments have shown that he was a full blown cultist. Robert has been lying to and manipulating these people for years. Clearly some fell for whatever he was selling them.
Quoted from Ferret:Hey, now, let's be fair.
The SEC complaint said Kauai, not Maui.
We've got "Disney Quality Animationssssss" on the brain 
Maui.gifQuoted from blueberryjohnson:How about this for our leading man?[quoted image]
Nah, come on - I want to watch this movie & for it to be funny.
Quoted from TreyBo69:I still vote for a less in shape Jack Black as Mueller and Danny Devito with a wig as JPop
7EE9B3AD-53CD-42B5-BA6B-FE1136F25924.gifQuoted from bigehrl:i know it's fun to think about, but the reality is the Pinball Division was just a small part of the grand scheme. it would get a small mention in any kind of screenplay about him. let alone, make up the title.
For a movie narrative, it would be so much more interesting to see a bunch of bumbling idiots trying & failing to make a pinball business while other companies succeed, and the third act twist is Robert’s bigger criminal schemes & getting caught.
Quoted from TreyBo69:Yeah showing a company like Spooky and Stern alongside deeproot would help make the good guys v bad guys who are clueless narrative translate to a general audience. Show them how it’s actually done while letting the audience realize how little Robert knew what he was doing.
Just imagine the ending - Charlie & his family glowing, Gary & crew popping corks after their newest LE sells out in 10 minutes…..and Robert sitting in a cell, Jpop trying to con another sugar daddy, and Barry living in his car & selling MAGA shirts at rallies.
Quoted from Mr68:Yep, completely agree. But don't forget, those $5000, BBB were selling off the Cunningham loading docks to new owners for $10,000 on release day.
That’s right when I got into the hobby, and I wanted a BBB but didn’t wanna pay $10k. I got berated by many “you should have ordered when you could!” …sorry, I didn’t know pinball existed yet lol. I put it out there that I’d pay $8k for one, and if I sold it, I’d sell it back to the original person for the same price. No one took me up on it.
My patience will pay off when I open up my CGC BBBrr
Quoted from EalaDubhSidhe:This'll make you laugh then. Guess what I nearly ended up working on. I'm not even joking.[quoted image][quoted image]
Bwaaaaahahahaha!!! OMFG.
Quoted from TreyBo69:Wife 2 was 2016. Wife 3 was 2020
Great timing, wife #3!
Quoted from Stuieb84:Who says Zingy Bingy isn't an amazing idea......it's at least an artistic & original idea, albeit an idea that could never sell
I’m glad I got to play it. I can say I played a game where I locked 2 balls under a dick flipper.
Quoted from Mr68:I recently paid non-refundable, pre-order money to Haggis in Australia for a Mermaid edition of Fathom. ...During Covid.
Discuss!
Kim gonna Kim!
Thankfully I don't care about Fathom & I find the name "Haggis" to be viscerally repulsive. Hope it all works out, but thankfully they didn't do anything to test my FOMO.
Quoted from Beechwood:This^^^ So much agree
May as well name it "Vomit" pinball. Nothing against them, but the name... ugh.
The guy who delivered my food last night might be into it
Anis (resized).jpgQuoted from thechakapakuni:You are correct sir. Filmed by the Spike Jonze in Hollywood around the corner for Toi
Oh dang, I used to go to Toi so much.
Quoted from greatwichjohn:JPOP could be managed in the future.
Dude. Over a FUCKING DECADE & he hasn’t been able to produce squat. What the F is wrong with you? He’s POISON, proven time and time again he’s a useless vampire. Sorry Sandwich, you’ve sealed it - any pinball project YOU are involved with shall now be 100% AVOIDED, as you’ve now proven that your sensibilities are inept & cannot be trusted. Tell the secret people you’re working with that you just F’d them.
Quoted from SmallyBells:Kaneda mentioned American Pinball needs a art director like Jpop. There you go Dennis! Sage to sage advice
There’s better value in hiring an art director who’s actually an artist. Jpop doesn’t bring anything to the table that someone else couldn’t do 1000% better.
Quoted from EricHadley:Mods should close this thread
Why? It’s a fluid story with many twists & turns to come. The thread doesn’t close until there’s accountability….and even then, there will probably be more to discuss.
Quoted from greatwichjohn:Yes JPOP can still be managed, & will likely move on to more pinball work. He should be a freelance pinball dreamer, & designer. But that is all, he needs a team to get games built.
JFC…why are you incapable of comprehending this: Jpop is NOT A SELLABLE BRAND. He’s one of the most hated men in pinball. Not only would a new “manager” be wasting money on a washed up no-talent hack, but they’d have NEGATIVE support for their “business decision” from potential customers.
Jpop NEVER had any business sense & neither would anyone foolish enough to get involved with him. He should NOT be remotely involved with pinball anymore. Period.
Neither should you, frankly.
Quoted from flynnibus:I'd be more curious if he's still in the country...
...or on Earth. Anyone check Kolob?
Quoted from greatwichjohn:Ben your nightmare will likely continue along with others that want JPOP to go away. Like I have said he will likely find a new home & drive you crazy! JPOP will need tight supervision, & monitoring for goal milestones going forward. He will be part of a team, & definitely Not A Leader towards pinball production.
F5F7D559-A964-46E2-A519-79CAB787CDF2.gifQuoted from greatwichjohn:Got your pin working tonight.
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Pinball/CirqusVoltaire
JPOP can have a bad rap, but he is known in the industry & inducted along with others. Another reason many companies continue to hire him. Deeproot was the latest. & unlikely the last.
I enjoy his games except for Star Wars Episode 1. The haters here probably blame him for WMS getting out of the pin & into the slot business.
5353E729-38C1-465E-A614-A131283B9564.gifQuoted from CaptK:PS: Whoever that "millionaire matchmaker" is...she mostly comes across as an arrogant, know-it-all, asshat.
She’s the worst - yet, there’s something compelled me to keep watching it for years lol. I love relationship trash shows. 90-Day Fiancé, anyone?!
Quoted from Scandell:Well..I'm the "Steve Rigging" guy.
So does that mean you’re “Level 3” on the Respect Chart?
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:Thinking about what type of people make for horrible bosses. If they —
* run a shady business that is prone to fielding customer inquiries and complaints.
* manage all incoming and control all outgoing comments.
* then stir the pot by making many outlandish public comments about how they are going to build what everybody wants and needs.
* has many outstanding business related lawsuits.
* has many lawsuits and counter lawsuits against own employees.
* are controlled at the top by a megalomaniac.
These would all be red flags and I know it would suck being an employee under such disfunctional conditions and horrible boss. However it could also have been pretty fun working there at times.
Sounds like Tommy Tallarico, the RM of the video game world lol …I’m betting the Intellivision Amico never ships, just like RAZA. The stories are very similar.
Quoted from greatwichjohn:Looks to be more of a factory minus any production line for Deeproot Pinball. It would be great if pictures are shown over the years of the factory. Looks like Robert can use a bunch of money that was spent over the years as part of a out towards failure. Even quad or octo manufacturing might get people away from line manufacturing. Same with the animation studio since most pinball games have displays for everything. Also throw in the few refunds & trying to do some scheme towards Zidware customers.
As for JPOP maybe he was smart & took a vacation. Funny how so much focus is on him, & no one seems to know where he is. It will upset the mob when he lands on his feet somewhere doing more pinball work.
But since JPOP took peoples money with Zidware, he must be the #1 reason Deeproot Pinball FAILED. History likes to repeat itself. Lots of info posted for people to decide if they want to roll the dice on a deposit or more on a pinball machine not in their possession. I rolled the dice twice with Jack, could lost everything (second game I almost did). Had my brand new WOZ out of the box crap out at the show. They got a part from the game next to it at the show so the distributors pin was just a display (off).
Finally over all the years going to shows, operating & servicing, producing playfields & backglass, other parts & pioneering uv inkjet playfield production. I applaud all those working in the pinball biz. I truely hope all employees find employment elsewhere quickly.
Finally lucky for me I could not go to Pinball Expo this year & do a seminar on Deeproot Pinball (my thoughts) on how to try to survive & actually make pinball games. Also I have left the Raza thread after the SEC came out. Maybe the constant gloaters should try & refrain themselves.
599EA2B3-DF3A-4AEA-828B-FEB08077FE89.jpegQuoted from stevevt:120 (?)
minus the 30 (?) rumored RM preorders
minus the X Zidware buyers who were being made whole
So, around 50 units preordered with maybe 30 buyers total?
I'm spitballing here, and am happy to revise my numbers.
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Probably not far off. There are 51 votes in the poll in the Pre-Order thread….and Pinside is usually just a fraction of the real pinball market, but DR is something that only people really clued into the hobby would even know about.
Quoted from greatwichjohn:Both of us love to drink a good amount of beer.
Clearly.
7145DBAE-C4D5-400D-934C-1B6331342ABD.gifQuoted from greatwichjohn:I try to say that JPOP will likely find another job doing pinball work
Why? Why do you try to say this 100 times?
He would have been officially over if a criminal hadn’t given him a new playground. Any legit pinball makers are smart enough to know he’s poison. At this point, even any new pinball criminals would be smart enough to stay far away.
Jpop IS NOT QUALIFIED to be employable by anyone making pinball. He’s 100% unhireable. He will not work again. Stop trying to will a job into existence for him. Let him rot like he deserves.
Quoted from benheck:He's a paragon of business... Who declared bankruptcy.
Yeah let's take advice from him.
Great Sandwich will only change his tune when Jplop steals his beer.
Quoted from Syco54645:I am out of the loop, can someone catch me up on what is going on here?
Read.gifQuoted from PinMonk:Gaming "journalism" was dead before the internet blew up in the 2000s. It had been corrupt since the 1980s.
You're telling me that Sushi X and Nick Rox weren't actual journalists!??!?!
Quoted from PinMonk:OMG, the stories I could tell.
But Diehard were never passing themselves off as journalists anyway. They were always enthusiasts, and often very entertaining. EGM especially was trying to wear the game journalism badge while allowing journalism corruption all the time, sometimes blatantly.
Whatever happened to all those people? There's such a vibrant retro gaming scene...I imagine they'd be part of it in some way.
Quoted from PinMonk:This is more "over a beer" in person conversation since lots of it is catty and insider-y and not public. I will say I think Dave H is still in Westlake Village, last I heard. I haven't talked to him in probably 10 years.
EDIT: I really am surprised a TV movie wasn't made about the whole Diehard Gamefan experience. It was CRAZY and should never have worked even for as long as it did. I still have the racist review issue (actual "review" they published by mistake below). I was on vacation in Hawaii, heard it was being pulled and found a store with the only three copies on Kauai and bought them.[quoted image]
LOL - I had every issue, and since it was a sports review, I probably skipped past it & didn’t even notice.
Quoted from PinMonk:I think your #1 is related to the plague of phrases done wrong. I think it's because "could've" SOUNDS like "could of" so they write it how it sounds.
Same thing with people saying something is "mute" when they meant "moot" because they didn't understand the word.
What do you make of people adding letters to words? Ever heard people say “eltse” instead of else? Or “exspecially” instead of especially? The LoserKid podcast guys do this…it’s soooo weird!
Quoted from wcbrandes:Oh Kim now your stretching!
CBBDC999-0FC9-4576-938A-5286EF2BC9BB.gifQuoted from benheck:Oh man, I am so obsessed with Jpop I can't even enjoy enjoy my north woods fishing trip!
What will I do with my life now???[quoted image]
Watch out! Jpop might be hiding in the lake ready to phish some poor sucker!!!
Quoted from jayhawkai:oh yeah[quoted image]
I see 2 Ben Hecks.
Quoted from greatwichjohn:I get it that it WAS A SCAM! All I am saying is many things could of been different with the right people. Not Robert being a dictator & a criminal. Like I have said no production was done. If JPOP & his games were finished & produced way back at the start. Maybe Deeproot Pinball would have survived, but not with all the bullshit lies Robert said & did over the years. The stupid Video division was the big money drain with all the employees. Big offices were another big drain, & add on the pinball staff who you need for a pinball company.
474E0A42-DCD9-4CEE-9C9D-1FB32962A8B6.gifQuoted from greatwichjohn:You would of thought
“Would have”
Quoted from Ty-Arnold:None of this matters at all, unless your a teacher bothering a student.
7813355B-AC24-43C0-90EF-15A9F8C04BEF.gif
At the end of the day, we’re trying to help you and teach you something that will be useful in your day to day written interactions with people. It’ll only make you look better to know these things. It’s weird that we’ve become a society that looks down on education. Your reaction to someone teaching you something should be “thank you”, not “fuck you”.
You’re welcome.
Quoted from SLCpunk2113:Why is this thread not dead yet?
The criminals are still alive & not in prison. Thread stays open until there is accountability for their actions.
Quoted from benheck:Also Spooky wants me to do another after (whatever game they are doing next that isn't Big Trouble in Little China) but we haven't settled on a theme yet. I wanted to do Rampage but Stern did a falling building so not anymore.
I got your theme: CHUCKY. It’s about a crazy redhead & fits with the Spooky genre. It’s horror & comedy. GO!
Quoted from benheck:Oh BTW I drained the sycophants thread... Do they still think RAZA is getting made?
The cultists have gone silent. Some people talking about whether they're getting credit card refunds or not.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:We all know this doofus is gonna skate!
Do we? Madoff didn’t skate.
There’s so much obvious provable fraud & so many people hurt…how does he weasel out of consequences?
Quoted from JimWilks:Doesn't mean I have to like it. Reminds me a lot of "You can't fix stupid"
Hey, my fuckin’ kid reads Pinside, too - I don’t want her learning the word “stupid” from the god damn internet!!!!
Stern just sold 199 Elvira Reboot-LEs for $25k+ a pop. If Robert wasn’t a scumbag thieving asshole & launched in 2021 with a reasonable plan & goodwill from the community, he might have sold some games….buuut he chose to be an evil prick. Oh well!
Quoted from BMore-Pinball:Sorry, personality and dishonesty aside - he had 0 chance of this
Lol - I dunno, in 2021 - ANYTHING sells. 500 Legends of Valhalla?! Da fuq?!?!
Quoted from TreyBo69:Punny Factory would be a test of just how insane the market is. Still don’t think they’d sell more than 10.
Yeaaaah…the theme is so incredibly lame & McBanus has already burnt so many bridges amongst the hobbyists, I can’t imagine who would buy one…even in the 2021 bonkers scene.
Quoted from toyotaboy:saturday afternoon, still not a single bid on the deeproot shirt [quoted image]
Nordman could wipe his butt, put the toilet paper up for auction, and get more bids than a Derp Poop shirt.
Quoted from EricHadley:Anything from expo? Any sneak peak of any games yet? What’s slowing these guys down?!?!
Prison.
Quoted from JodyG:Ukraine in-laws? Holy shit, he bought a mail order bride!!! That is a pretty strong acknowledgement that he has ZERO skills to attract anyone into his inner circle he doesn't have to pay for.
Anyone watch 90-Day Fiancé? The guys who go for Ukrainian women are maniac creeps. So, for Robert - this all tracks.
Quoted from TecumsehPlissken:How many times? isn't he on wife #3 now?
Yup, and she’s pregnant or just gave birth. Who’s he going to steal from to pay for that?!
Quoted from Goronic:His only defense would be insanity. There is no defense for this.
Unfortunately for him he’s not insane, he’s just a sociopathic malignant narcissist. PRISON, BEYOTCH!!!!!
So much talk about Crimin’ Robbie Mewmew…what about the OG Pinball Ponzi Lord, Johnny Plops? Is he aimlessly roaming around Texas? What do OG MG/Raza/Alice buyers do now? More court, or time to just walk away & come to terms with getting scammed?
BTW, I went back and read the first few pages of the “buyers” thread. It’s truly amazing in retrospect to see how strident and often cruel the “buyers” were when I warned them that this was a scam from the jump. Not one has apologized.
Quoted from EalaDubhSidhe:Again I ask the *entirely* rhetorical question... "why is this still going".
This thread? It will go until there is a conclusion to the story. When bad people are held accountable for their harmful actions, then it will end.
Quoted from frolic:That was posted 4 years ago. I reread the first 4 pages of this thread and it’s amazing how well everything has aged.
What can I say, my Scam-o-meter is very accurate. I called out Jpop’s original MG offer out as a scam from Day 1. $16k for 19 machines= $304k. That’s not enough to pay programmers, artists, engineers, musicians & manufacture a product like pinball. It was never going to work & RAZA & AIW were an obvious Ponzi scheme. I have no idea how Jpop isn’t in prison. Follow the money…if it doesn’t make sense - there’s a reason.
I find the part about being intimidated by Robert to be fascinating…that’s like being intimidated by Snagglepuss. Sure, it’s the “rich” boss vs. employee dynamic…but he strikes me as a very soft man, easily frightened. Probably what led him to his phony “I’ll threaten you with my money and power” persona.
Quoted from flynnibus:People blow millions on passion projects all the time - you don't assume they are criminals because they are making bad fiscal decisions.
I mean, I always assumed Robert was a criminal. We know Jpop (allegedly) was & Robert happily palled around with him. If it quacks like a duck….
Quoted from Triplecdad:Original themes do not sell? Tell that to the folks at CGC quick before they sell out of yet another reproduction of an original theme.
False equivalency. Those are already classics that have demand.
Look at the failure of RAZA (twice). Look at the slow/low sales of Dialed In, BKSOR, Oktoberfest, Cosmic Carnival, Mafia, Full Throttle etc.
Themes = instant & consistent sales. Original = I’ll wait and see how it is. You can’t run a factory off if “I’ll wait to see how it is” buyers.
Quoted from greatwichjohn:How do you know they would not sell if done well. It will be interesting to see if anyone buys up the IT & uses it.
I think you should do it. You’re really onto something! Please buy RAZA & try to make it for a 3rd time. This time, it’ll be totally different and there’s no way you’ll go completely broke! Looking forward to Great Sandwich Pinball’s new factory - please share the picture when you have thousands on the line!
Quoted from benheck:While not the biggest seller I think TNA did the best job with an original theme. (in modern times)
I love TNA. It might be my desert island pin at this point. But it’s a game made by a guy just for fun & he never expected to sell any. So, its ultimate story of selling 500 games is great for an “indie”. But people need to understand that 500 for a factory like Stern or JJP would be a failure…unless it was planned as an ultra-expensive ultra-limited collectible.
Quoted from Tranquilize:I still think a retro space theme could sell insanely well if done correctly (like TNA was). Plus stern would save a shit ton on licensing fees to make up the difference.
Why don’t people understand this…licensing doesn’t cost much per game. For the amount of assets, voices, art, animation, story, characters & music they get - not to mention instant sales, there’s no “money saved” by doing non-licensed.
There’s zero reason for them to do “Gary in Space” vs. Star Wars & GOTG.
Quoted from brucipher:Didn't Legends of Valhalla (an original theme) just sell out their 500 LEs super fast?
That happened during FOMO madness…right after the Banning auction & every friggin game reselling for more than MSRP. I’d consider it an anomaly.
Quoted from benheck:Stern just sold 1000 LEs of fucking RUSH in a few hours.
I would buy 1000 Rush pins before ever buying one Derp Poop pin.
Well, I'm just buying 1 Rush pin...but the point is still the same.
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:Latest Final Round podcast has interview with Steve Bowden. Discussion of deeproot at the beginning. Only things of note I've heard thus far are (it sounds like) RAZA was the only game that he ever actually worked on, he claims to have developed rules for all of the games listed on deeprootpinball.com, and confirmed that you wouldn't be able to turn on RAZA if the pinbar wasn't working.
https://www.podbean.com/media/share/pb-duyfn-1171d6e
What a softball/nothing interview. I know “everyone loves Bowden”, but this interview just cemented my opinion that there’s something off about the guy.
Quoted from JStoltz:Objectively, I think it’s a bad look to talk shit publicly about your former employer (regardless of how much they may deserve it). He (unofficially) represents another company now and I would imagine he’s conscious of that.
I think he could have told some more interesting stories about his experience & how he sees it all in retrospect without necessarily talking shit. Jeff/Marty didn’t ask any interesting questions to even try to get that, though.
Quoted from JStoltz:I do also get the impression that Steve is a less confrontational person in general. You never hear him taking bold stances or stating hard opinions on hardly anything in the first place, let alone topics of controversy...
I’m not advocating for confronting him or forcing anything out of him. I just wanna hear stuff like - what did he do for 3 years for 40 hours a week - especially near the end? Did he have any sense that things were weird? Are there red flags he didn’t see at first, but are now obvious? How does he feel about it all now in retrospect? Was he or is he still friends with anyone from DR? How did the AP job come about?
It seems like this would have been an emotional journey with some interesting stories. That’s what I want to hear. I want to know who this guy is & what his experience was like. I really don’t know anything about him other than he wrote books of rules & is crazy into tournaments. I honestly don’t understand what he really does or brings to the table at AP.
Quoted from TreyBo69:It’s not a coincidence Ghostbusters was one of the last truly packed Stern games, full of mechs and sculpts.
Jurassic Park & Godzilla say: “Hold my beer”.
Quoted from TreyBo69:I think there’s a lot of fun shots in those game. But lots of unique mechs and sculpts? Great games still, but not as much physical stuff as GB. Godzilla Premium is close, but it’s a game that costs almost $2k more NIB
JP Prem/LE has a fully animating T-Rex that eats the ball, places on a ramp, or throws it. It’s got a unique car on a newton ball that feels great to hit & has multiple purposes. It has a crazy amount of ramps. It has 4 up posts for locks/diversion. It has the raptor pen. A helicopter blade that spins as the ball passes it.
GB has a booger on a string who’s position doesn't matter, airball drops, some buildings that don’t do anything, a Marshmallow that doesn’t do anything, a containment sculpt that doesn’t do anything, and a hologram that doesn’t do anything…oh, and it plays like absolute unfun hell.
Quoted from DanQverymuch:Was RM all that charismatic? I've never bothered to watch any video of the guy.
Only to idiots who fall for obvious narcissistic sociopath conmen.
Quoted from greatwichjohn:I have no agenda to stir up the Deeproot fiasco.
This is clearly a lie.
Tell your scumbag friends that trying to start a company with anything related to Jpop or Derp Poop will result in the end of their company.
Quoted from greatwichjohn:No one is looking to take any money until the mess is sorted out. See if anything IP or assets can be used towards pinball production. The JPOP & Deeproot relationship has to be sorted out. Along with the person who still likely has ownership rights (Bill).
Do I think JPOP or Deeproot games might be made. Maybe, but at this time it is a long shot unless many hurtles are resolved. Or likely IP will be bought not be be used or for different pinball projects in the future.
The unknown is all the IP that all the employees were working on all these years. So far that info seems to be not spoken for in the legal proceedings.
Quoted from benheck:So who here thinks Star Citizen / Cloud Imperium Games is gonna be the "deeproot of gaming"?
I don't know what that is, but Tommy Tallarico & his Intellivision Amico are IMO the Mueller/Derproot of gaming at the moment. Blustery blowhard, trying to tell an industry & customers what they should want/need...revealing something really stupid & missing deadline after deadline while a small but loud cult fanbase can't see that it will never ever come out.
Quoted from TreyBo69:They basically admitted they might not even make the thing recently
https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2022/02/debt-stricken-intellivision-asks-for-more-funds-to-last-past-july/
Yeah, like Jpop & DR, it was clear from the start that the financials never made sense.
Quoted from frolic:I've only learned of this thing. Wow. No one ever waxes nostalgic for Intellivision. No one gave a rats ass. And they think they can create a whole new platform? Surprised it got the crowdfunding that it did.
Yeah, it's been a hilarious clusterfuck from the sidelines for the past few years. Tommy's such a maniac, fighting with people online if they don't suck his ass or become a useful idiot for him on Youtube & social media. His whole concept of "we need to bring families back together to play video games in the living room" is so asinine. Wii did this, successfully. Switch has done it for 5 years, successfully. The market doesn't need another "family" gaming platform, especially one with a brand that holds ZERO weight with anyone & has ZERO nostalgic IP for anyone. Tommy exists in this bubble where Intellivision was something anyone really cared about outside of a year or two in the 80s. When people have brought up the obvious fact that Nintendo Switch IS the "family" console...he said "If you want your kids playing a system that has horrific violence and rape, go get a Switch". Like, that's the pitch...nevermind that Switch has parental controls and ways to keep kids from buying/playing M rated games.
Pat & Ian on the Completely Unnecessary Podcast have been chronicling this madness for years, and have been attacked by Tommy & his cult for just being reasonably skeptical & critical of Tommy's antics. Tommy called them "Gaming Racists" lol...
I used to be a big fan of Tommy's game music, like the Earthworm Jim soundtracks....but my gawd, he's such an insufferable a-hole.
Quoted from benheck:You feel about the Amico like I do the Steam Deck Nobody beats Nintendo at their own game.
I mean...Sega did. Then Sony did.
"Steam Deck" just sounds like a place where you go and poop.
The PC gamers just never get it...Nintendo is successful because of their beloved IP. Mario, Zelda, Kirby, Splatoon, Donkey Kong, Fire Emblem, Pokemon, Metroid, etc. Most people, especially people who like Nintendo, don't obsess about TECH. Nintendo's art direction, gameplay and sound transcend gigaflops or whatever.
Quoted from frolic:Like deeproot (I tied it back into our thread topic!), this thing was trying to solve problems that don't exist.
…and like Deeproot, the Amico will never get manufactured, the company will fold, and lawsuits will commence.
That 10 Commandments is basically a can of Raid for developers.
Who would waste their time and money developing for a system that will have no user base, and even if 100% of that user base buys your game for $10, you won’t make shit?
If you were making a $10 game, why wouldn’t you want it on the Switch, Steam, Xbox & PS digital stores?!
Quoted from TreyBo69:All I hear is how much you hate family gaming /s
I can’t game without all that Mario murder!!!
Meanwhile, Nintendo’s releasing the follow up to Wii Sports, Switch Sports. Lots of families are gonna be playing that together. None of them will ever know what the Amico was.
Quoted from benheck:If you're this Tommy bloke you should look at the Atari VCS console (which amazingly, DID get released) and then assume 1/6th the sales of that.. and then give up.
Atari is the only thing from that era with even a remotely relevant mass market nostalgia, and in reality it peaked 20 years ago when I was making all those portables.
The name Intellivision means nothing, making this just another Leapfrog LCD game box from China.
Atari doesn’t have much worthwhile IP, but they were a major player, unlike Intellivision. The VCS was also pretty much just a little computer with Atari branding. It kinda didn’t matter if anyone did anything with it after the fact. Tommy going with the exclusive ecosystem was such a fail. Right now I can go to the Switch eShop & see Atari’s Centipede, Asteroids, and Black Widow reboots. If Tommy actually wanted to generate some funding for Amico, he would have made some multi-platform games first….although they prob wouldn’t have sold that well cuz again - who gives a fuck about Intellivision IP.
Quoted from frolic:Wow, ok, you just gave me a legit Intellivision flashback memory. There was a Lock'n'Chase & Dr Pepper promotion at my local mall back in the day. I remember playing that game then. So that was a legit "big title" for them.
And does it exist for Amico? lol.
Edit: wow, found this button referencing that exact promotion. I'm certain I had this button.[quoted image]
Lock ‘n Chase was a Data East game. Mattel/Intellivision licensed popular arcade games of the time & ported them. Intellivision had Donkey Kong, too. Their own IP was nothing. Tommy talks about Shark Shark like it was some pop culture gaming phenomenon lol. No one cares.
Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:I still have the emulator Stella installed somewhere and I can only stand to play any of the 2600 games for a couple minutes at a time now. They have been surpassed in every possible way.
My one exception is Adventure. Still love walking into the programmer's room.
I feel like most of us hated Atari 2600 even when it was what we all had. Even as a small child, I hated how crappy most of the arcade ports were. NES games still hold up. Atari consoles sucked at the time and suck now.
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