(Topic ID: 203700)

deeproot Pinball thread

By pin2d

6 years ago


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357 key posts have been marked in this topic, showing the first 10 items.

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Post #111 Firsthand information from the Magic Girl programmer. Posted by applejuice (6 years ago)

Post #3026 RAZA promotional video Posted by PinMonk (4 years ago)

Post #5771 First RAZA gameplay video Posted by ZMeny (4 years ago)

Post #5874 RAZA video with more audible game sounds Posted by zaphX (4 years ago)

Post #5926 First RAZA video with successful ramp completion Posted by zaphX (4 years ago)

Post #5967 Another RAZA gameplay video Posted by flynnibus (4 years ago)

Post #6050 Closeup pictures of key playfield features Posted by Potatoloco (4 years ago)

Post #6133 Video of display animations Posted by LateCenturyMods (4 years ago)

Post #6329 Summary of Robert Mueller's interview Posted by jeffspinballpalace (4 years ago)

Post #6724 RAZA Gameplay video Posted by DS_Nadine (4 years ago)


Topic indices are generated from key posts and maintained by Pinside Editors. For more information, or to become an editor yourself read this post!

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#1758 5 years ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

Well, Mueller claims they're going to release more machines in 2019 than any manufacturer has in a year, in the history of the industry. He didn't say Stern era, or even solid state or DMD era.
That's got to be hyperbole, and probably refers to DMD era. What was the max for BW? 5? 6?
Even assuming they can get all these games out, they're great to play, reliable, well built, more affordable, look good, the software's excellent, and that they can manufacture more machines than the rest of the industry combined (as was implied previously) .... where is the demand?
More importantly, even if there were potentially enough buyers (globally) to support this level of production, where is the distribution network and where are the retailers? A big enough one for arcade and pinball machines hasn't existed since the 90s. He obviously wants to do direct sales, but that's probably only going to work in the US (& maybe Canada), and then, he better have planned for millions in marketing budgets (net, print, TV), else who's going to know about them, much less buy them?
From talk I've heard, and what has been implied by Robert, a modular software framework that allows very quick implementation of rules and getting machines playable very swiftly seems to be their ace as far as development is concerned. This is great, and long overdue - more so if the end user has access to an API. Manufacturing, and BOM costs, well I guess we'll see about that.
But why release everything en masse on your *debut* ????? Just why.
You flood the market, almost ensuring lower sales for not just the industry, but your titles too, and placing a huge amount of pressure on keeping the pipeline going.
This seems mad, given that interest rates in the US are expected to continue quickly upwards in 2019, public and private debt will snowball, Trump shows no sign of backing down on his global trade war, major economies are looking either very shaky or potentially entering crises (Turkey, Italy, UK etc), China is cooling off a little and debt levels are getting a bit dangerous there. 2020 *could* be a cataclysmic year, and if there hasn't been a major shock and economic consequences by the middle of 2021, I'd be really surprised.
Why blow your load like this, given the way the wind is blowing? Pinball market is already a bit overheated, and in danger of market saturation even before they launch.
Maybe they want to be the #1 right away, but even if that happens they risk catalysing a crash in the industry, which will screw them as much as anyone else given their apparently very large investments. Unless this is all just a tax write off, so the cost of cornering the market is immaterial?

I haven't seen anyone point this out, but I believe the intention of releasing multiple products at launch is to cause market cannibalism. In which case, considering the current pinball climate and how all the pinball companies typically release games, it's the right strategy to implement.

Simply put, the intention isn't to be #1 today or immediately. The intention is to flood the market, the intention is to produce more than what is currently in demand, the intention is to lower sales of competitors across the board in order to gain a higher market share in the future. The gamble is to take the hits in the first couple of years, effectively putting all other companies not named Stern in their crosshairs and aiming at putting them out of business. The industry won't crash, but other companies that produce 1 game per year or every 2 years will.

#1781 5 years ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

The market WILL crash if there's a serious economic shock ... and one looks due in the next 2 years, and probably unavoidable in the next 3 given levels of debt in major economies. For those not following, US public spending deficit will double to more than $1Trillion this year and continue to worsen as rates rise.
If the market's flooded when that happens, it will be a lot worse.

I'm not discussing how a potential overall market decline plays into the decline of various industries. I'm discussing how deeproot's strategy coming out of the gates is aimed at increasing their competitive advantage in the long run. People are questioning why they would release multiple products at the same time because of fears of "flooding the market," thus I provided insight as to why a company would want to do so.

1 year later
50
#5888 4 years ago

Alright so I got to spend some time on it. I’d like to think I have a little skill to me as I won the state championship in Oklahoma and was ranked in the top 40 on the stern circuit for most of the season. These are my thoughts and my thoughts only, I don’t have a horse in this race and hope every pinball that comes out is successful.

The game is prototype for sure. I can’t speak for coding (very early stages) or artwork as I believe it’s not final. Many of the shots weren’t doing anything or were very buggy which was expected. What I can speak to is playfield design and how the shots were.

The right ramp has a feature with 3/4 of the middle of it missing completely. If you don’t hit this ramp solid, it won’t make it around the ramp without the speed. It’ll simply fall back to the playfield.

The skill shot can actually go to the outlane, similar to Congo. The kickback then sent it back up to an area that is like a “snake feed” that goes back to the playfield.

There is a magna save. It’s more similar to Pharaoh’s magna save and the button is on the right side of the cabinet. It’s in such a place that you won’t accidentally hit it.

One of the main multiball features is started by hitting a roving target in the back. It was supposed to spell zombie and then start a multiball we believe, but the software never allowed for that feature to start.

Alright so, how does it shoot? Honestly after about 20 minutes, I went from being really excited to play it to an uh-oh feeling. The game plays very slow.

The orbits were moderate to hit. The shots seemed earlier on the flippers than expected. Both shots seemed to feed back to the opposite flipper, though it hung up a couple of times.

The ramps were another story. We kept count. I was 0 for 12 getting the ball successfully up the ride the coasters ramp (right ramp). Not 0 for 12 misses, that’s how many rejects I had from a trap. Either the flippers weren’t strong enough or that shot is only an on the fly shot. Across 4 players we were 0 for 20. I’ll try the other pin today and see if that was just a fluke.

The dare devil cycle shot was reject city. We’d get clean hits, the bottom would kinda lift up and the ball would just come back to the flippers. Think of the Death Star shot on Star Wars, but without the speed and it being closer to you.

The atomic shop shot reminded me of the orb shot on GOTG. It was a fairly safe return. I think a ball was supposed to lock behind it, but when I hit it nothing happened.

The spinning Oozie shot really killed any flow of the game for me. The ball seemed to spend more time being deflected off of it and trickle back to flippers. We hit it a few times to spin it, but the shot itself wasn’t satisfying and seemed to be more of a flow killer.

I’m going to play it some more today and try out the other prototype they brought. I’ll probably have some more thoughts on it later today. As of right now I’m underwhelmed by the gameplay itself. Compared to JP and Wonka on shot flow or just design, it’s not in the same ball park. If you love these games, then I’d probably advised to dial down expectations when stepping up to RAZA. Shots on this aren’t necessarily tight as it is that the geometry just makes the game play ok. When you do brick a shot (and it’ll happen more often then not) it didn’t feel like you were going to be punished for it.

I’m sure the entire package (art/sound) will come together come March. I wish Deeproot the best and hope they can back up everything that has been touted for the past couple of years. I really want my expectations to be matched and for this to be a kick ass pin. At this point though, with how it actually plays, it was underwhelming.

#5892 4 years ago
Quoted from MikeS:

Thanks for the detailed write-up! That's exactly the kind of feedback I was looking for. It's concerning that with the amount of time and resources that DR has spent on this game that it doesn't shoot more polished and smooth, especially with how much they like to talk themselves up.-werent they originally supposed to outship all manufacturers in 2019.
The good news is that they still have time to tweak and polish the game before it's released. I'm sure the finished product will be much better. It does seem impressive in many other ways so I'm excited to see what they do going forward.

For sure. I’d rather the kinks be worked out and they get the right feedback to make the most complete game possible. I’d like to see success. I will say the animations on the backbox were solid.

#5894 4 years ago
Quoted from kermit24:Seems like most of the complaints you list are resolved with stronger flippers. And remember it is a prototype.

That’s what I’m hoping. Especially the right ramp shot. It’s a cool design, but not being able to hit it from a trap is concerning. The game was set up steep or anything like that, it just seemed like the only way to hit it was from on the fly.

#5899 4 years ago
Quoted from razorsedge:

So we have one player feels the right ramp is good, even though you cant just flick it from a trap (reminds me of Frankie or Baywatch tower, love it when you make those tougher shots) ... and one player feels the right ramp is bad, although that seems to be just because it cant be made from a trap?
Anyway I guess that makes the right ramp 50/50 so far.
Personally I like satisfying staged ramps that can't be fully made from the trap. Forces players to Play Better, on the fly from the inlane or playfield, in order to be fully rewarded.

Quoted from razorsedge:

So we have one player feels the right ramp is good, even though you cant just flick it from a trap (reminds me of Frankie or Baywatch tower, love it when you make those tougher shots) ... and one player feels the right ramp is bad, although that seems to be just because it cant be made from a trap?
Anyway I guess that makes the right ramp 50/50 so far.
Personally I like satisfying staged ramps that can't be fully made from the trap. Forces players to Play Better, on the fly from the inlane or playfield, in order to be fully rewarded.

I’d tend to agree. The problem is, there’s nothing that feeds the left inlane in order to create this on the fly shot. I couldn’t find anyway to pre-plan for that shot. There’s no existing shots to create the speed needed for the flipper to make that shot. At this point the only hope is your nudge goes into the inlane and the ramp happens to be lit for something to make it worthwhile going for.

#5900 4 years ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

Somehow that sounds awfully familiar... XD
...anyone remembers AP's Houdini showings?
I "hope" it's the same Problem, that the flippers are massively weaker then normal, because there's such a lot of machines running.
(And plz therefore get a better power brick from the getgo and don't make it an additional purchase.)

My gut reaction is the flippers were under powered. This shot should be able to be hit from a trap in my opinion due to nothing feeding that flipper to create an on the fly shot.

If their intention was to have a ramp that needed speed to be hit but no inlane feed, then that’s a real head scratcher.

13
#6050 4 years ago

Ok finally got some gameplay video / pictures and some extra time on it.

Things of note. I got some more information and there are adjustments still coming.

Let’s talk right ramp. The feedback on the ramp has been heard. An adjustment is coming, but what that is I don’t know, most likely in the form of flipper strength adjustments. I did see it hit once from the fly and it is a cool shot once it’s hit. People were reporting earlier in the expo that they were able to hit the ramp from a trap. The idea eventually is for a right orbit to ramp combo to be in the game.

It appears that the ramp itself can feed back to either flipper depending on how hard it gets it. The opening of the ramp allows for nudging back into the targets with the 3x - 6x - 9x. This is a playfield multiplier for a certain amount of time.

There is a magnet up top that is catching from both orbits and feeding the Ferris wheel.

The drop targets on the right orbit are a nice touch as well.

The spinning wheel on the right side activated each time a Target was hit right by it, though it didn’t do much to the ball itself.

The Dizzie doozie shot is mainly meant to be in the way of high value shots. I’m not a fan of this, but it’s the element of gameplay that has been presented.

Dare devil cycle was hit a few times too. What would happen is the ball would hit the target, that little ramp would pop up, and the ball would come back out from underneath the little ramp.

I’m not sure if this will ever be a tournament game. It’s a long player for sure. As I said earlier, there’s really no shots that put you into danger. Can’t comment on location play, but I can see this being a pin that someone would have fun playing in a home environment as this nears completion next year.

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21
#6051 4 years ago

A few minutes of gameplay video including zombie multiball.

#6056 4 years ago
Quoted from Concretehardt:

Your video went from good to great when the music blaring the same lyrics over and over again in the background stopped. The game looks fun to shoot, I wonder if it was suffering from the low voltage issues that are common at shows. Seems like a bit more flipper strength and the ramp shot would be makable.

I felt the same in person as well about the music!

The flippers just weren’t great. They started to have a lot of give by Saturday night and the rubber was tearing off. Hopefully that’s more of an indication of it being played a lot rather than just bad parts.

12
#6148 4 years ago

My final thoughts on the ramp shot. I did manage to complete the shot a few times and I also managed to make the ball go flying off the ramp a few times too. The only time it could be completed was a orbit to ramp combo. Was it cool? Absolutely. But I’m not a fan of having one ramp in the game and the only way of hitting this ramp is hoping a clean orbit shot allows for the opportunity of a clean on the fly ramp shot. Even then, a missed shot isn’t punished because the outlanes aren’t massive at all. It just becomes a game of patience. Trap left, right orbit, on the fly shot, miss, get back under control, rinse and repeat until it gets hit. What’s interesting is even after hitting it, the ball never returned back to my left flipper, so that feed was essentially non-existent.

The design and thoughts from DR obviously indicate that this shot is meant to be a half ramp shot. My big issue with that is, and again I only speak for myself, but it’s not fun. Watching the pinball zip around the ramp is fun, watching the ball plop back down to the playfield 100% of the time from a trap is not my idea of fun, especially on a primary shot. The ramp itself is very easy to hit clean. Basically this means the only reason to hit a ramp from a trap would be to get the ball into the target areas for your playfield multiplier.

What I would really like to see is some sort of accelerator / diverter / drop target put on this ramp. Have the drop target (s) be hit to unlock the ramp itself, but allow the ball to plop back down on the playfield as intended. Have the drop targets actually be ball locks for a multiball and then the top of the ramp becomes the super jackpot collector, or just have a diverter in which a certain key shot elsewhere on the playfield opens this shot up and an accelerator will get the ball all the way up the ramp. Basically anything but watching a ball trickle up and down a ramp.

I do want to provide some pros to this that I did find enjoyable about the game. The roving Zombie Target is a nice touch. It adds to a little bit more timing that is enjoyable more than just bash this stationary mech. That is a satisfying shot. I do like the plunge, it’s easy to get the ball to your left flipper and start a game under control. Hitting an orbit and letting the magnet do its thing into the Ferris wheel will probably be very visual appealing at the final build. I am a fan of hit this drop target and then have X amount of seconds to hit the shot that has opened up. They have the opportunity to implement this and it’s a reverse GOTG orb shot. It could lead to a pretty cool light show on the playfield. After playing a few more times, I appreciated this shot more and more. The animations on the backbox were great. They looked fantastic. I can’t wait to see the final product of that because I much prefer this over LCD and movie clips.

1 week later
#6788 4 years ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

I was kinda baffled with that one.
I kinda agree with much of what he's saying but referring to GotG as the kinda perfect game (wich for me is most generic modern game I can think of) took a lot of credibilty off of him (for me and my taste of course).

It’s not the perfect game for me, nor did I say it’s perfect. In fact, I stated it’ll go against the grain. I was stating what feels like a knockout punch for me and I compared it to a modern game. A combination of shots is my knockout punch.

My preference for fun games is having a flow that includes a sequence of shots, thus I was talking about using the Groot head as a shot that ends of a sequence. Hitting Groot on its own is just chopping wood, which isn’t fun for me. Hitting Groot for a large multiplied super jackpot after a combo of ramps is fun, seeing a 500 million to 1.5 billion jackpot light up on the screen after hitting the right sequence is fun for me. This is a result of a mix between playfield layout and ruleset design.

Other examples that are flow and non-flow alike that I enjoy are the T-Rex Hurry Up fully built up. Shatzing on Meteor from right to left and ripping the spinner. Using the Barn / CDC combo to cash in a massive jackpot. Shatzing on Gorgar and hitting the 50k collect. Starting a multiball on High Speed.

Either way, it’s a preference. For me, hitting the orbit on RAZA then the ramp wasn’t satisfying on its own and this game isn't designed for someone like me that isn't a huge fan of modern non-flow games. Which is perfectly cool, this pin still has potential and could be a great package when it's final version arrives. For someone else, that might be the most kick-ass shot for them which is totally cool and what makes pinball great. There’s always something for someone.

4 months later
#8285 3 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

I would agree, but until teleportation technology becomes common, streaming is the way almost everyone will see the game. So with that being the case, how do you make sure that it's the best reveal possible?
Pretending the people on the internet aren't there and focusing only on the in-person means lots of bad cell phone videos.

You do a promo with edited footage hyping up the assets, art, layout, people behind the game, outside people giving their first impressions (if they get to play it ahead of time) and release the game on the same day for purchase. This showcases the best parts of a game in a clear message.

A stream reveal that last several games exposes flaws very quickly in both design and rulesets imo.

A promo would be the best reveal for a company in maximizing the capture of sale. Streaming is best for the consumer to maximize their decision making when purchasing.

5 months later
#10695 3 years ago
Quoted from zaphX:

As someone who actually played the Houston game, the "issues with the ramp" are way, way, WAY overblown. Pinside as usual forms it's hivemind opinion based on a few cellphone videos of unskilled randos and makes their final judgement.

I'd beg to differ on that one. Though I suppose I could be an unskilled rando that can't make ramps.

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