(Topic ID: 203700)

deeproot Pinball thread


By pin2d

2 years ago



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Topic index (key posts)

9 key posts have been marked in this topic

Post #111 Firsthand information from the Magic Girl programmer. Posted by applejuice (2 years ago)

Post #3026 RAZA promotional video Posted by vireland (7 months ago)

Post #5771 First RAZA gameplay video Posted by ZMeny (24 days ago)

Post #5874 RAZA video with more audible game sounds Posted by zaphX (23 days ago)

Post #5926 First RAZA video with successful ramp completion Posted by zaphX (23 days ago)

Post #5967 Another RAZA gameplay video Posted by flynnibus (23 days ago)

Post #6050 Closeup pictures of key playfield features Posted by Potatoloco (22 days ago)

Post #6133 Video of display animations Posted by LateCenturyMods (21 days ago)

Post #6329 Summary of Robert Mueller's interview Posted by jeffspinballpalace (19 days ago)


Topic indices are generated from key posts and maintained by Pinside Editors. For more information, or to become an editor yourself read this post!

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#2270 10 months ago
Quoted from jlm33:

Hum...you'll need witnesses to validate and immortalize the event, am I am applying for the job!
Let me see just check first how much would cost a Paris-NY flight...probably worth every penny anyway!

I'm not sure it's honor a moderator this kind of comment. I was more used to read interresting distant comment.
Don't get all the negatives for things which is not even presented officially or potential commercial gift but it's just me.
I'm done here.

3 months later
#2827 7 months ago
Quoted from pin2d:

Anyone recognize the voiceover?

The voice from attack from mars? Did i win a pin?

13
#3192 7 months ago
3D8FBFED-6080-4481-BDB8-FA75F70F80B1 (resized).jpeg
3 months later
#4259 4 months ago
Quoted from jorro:

Dammit Robert!
This thread isnt even about deeproot anymore
Show us something to prove anything is happening!

Within the 86 pages, you have less than 10 interresting posts.

Still waiting for real infos for this ghost.

#4261 4 months ago
Quoted from greenhornet:

how many does robert have?

« Find in Topics »
« By pinsider »

Seems not to be a real media for them here.

1 week later
#4449 4 months ago
Quoted from Fulltilt:

“Several prototypes to play at the Houston Expo” in November.
[quoted image]

What’s new?

1 week later
#4499 3 months ago

Seems to be the cycle:
A drawing is shared and then it feed this thread for a week.

But...
Where is the pin? What is the art? How it plays? ....

Tired of this kind of communication.

1 week later
#4670 3 months ago
Quoted from Tranquilize:

If each person was allowed one ten and one one, the system would be a little better. Not averaging pro/prem/LE killed any semblance of genuine ratings the list ever had. Such a bad choice.
Really enjoyed wolf's IMDNLE review:
"Game is overrated. Like it and fun to play, but not top 10 or maybe even 20. Huge easy ramp in the middle is why noobs like this game." 1/10.
L-O fucking L!

Some are hilarious. I spent really good time reading his ratings:
Here is JD (1.5)

« Probably the all time worst pinball game ever made. Safe cracker is a close second. Where do I start? You basically have 2 areas in the game you can play. Crappy upfield or crappy lower playfield. If you blink the ball will drain. If you try and control a shot, the ball will drain. If you get multiball, you will have a triple drain within 15 seconds. If this game didn’t have outlines it would still figure out a way to drain »

Pinball is a hobby and everything doesn’t have to be serious.

4 weeks later
#4929 78 days ago
Quoted from Brijam:

One of these things is not like the other.
I guess it would be too much to ask for Deeproot to issue a statement to clarify? I was thinking of coming out to the November show.

Account has been deactivated, so unlikely. We are close to 100 pages of nothing, yeah

#4936 78 days ago

50 posts / page so we are 14 left. Obviously the winner gets nothing since it’s what all about

#4939 78 days ago

Yeai ... 12 left

#4951 78 days ago
Quoted from Shapeshifter:

Why did Deeproot ( Robert ) go inactive a month ago?

Since we know nothing about it, and we are almost at 100 pages of nothing and also 5000 posts of nothing, i propose to rename the thread : the deeproot chat of nothing.

1 month later
#5310 27 days ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

And to abstract the interview with Robert Müller from Looser Kid Podcast:
- It's a prototype, with the best innovations (mechs) missing... BUT IT'LL ALLREADY BE WAY BETTER THEN THE COMPETITION!!!
Ah, I missed that!
Looking forward to the weekend.

When did he say that? Here is what he said: « I hope you see something that is pretty much on the level where every other game is »

What is the point with bashing couple days before the reveal? After all this time with nothing to say, let’s wait this week end.
I really don’t get some post sometimes...

#5398 25 days ago

at last. Let's see the pin in action now. I have to say that the art is stunning for the playfield but a bit off for the cabinet and BB, hopefully it will change.

here are the difference with the first proto, seems like the main design remain after all.

RAZA (resized).png
#5661 24 days ago
Quoted from jimwe5t:

This is hilarious: a new Trojan horse rolls into town with some on lookers fawning all over it. Something smells, as DR investors might be being scammed (For example: DR built an unneeded auditorium, instead of building and selling even their first machine - do like everyone else does and show at a convention and save investor money for building up inventories of something that actually brings in revenue - pinball machines). Some people are giving DR kudos for JPop work done years ago when he had Zidware.
Sure they haven’t taken pinball money yet, so some are giving DR a pass, but what about the poor DR investors??? Their money is being spent like no tomorrow $7.5 million (DR claimed expenditure figures, not mine) a month and this is all they have to show for years of work??? A machine that DR claims is not the finished version and almost everything on the machine is going to change? Wow, are we expected to believe the Trojan horse is a great gift? Looking at this, causes great concerns. Hope the investors don’t lose out on their hard earned investment monies, because if this is all they have at this point in the business cycle that began 2016/17 and I we’re an investor, I’d be worried big time. Hope what appears to be possible isn’t. Just my opinion from looking at it closer.
DR confirmed game list is JPop titles he began years ago.

You might check the other thread:
you seem a bit stressed out. Hobby here.

18
#5850 23 days ago
Quoted from NoQuarters:

So they took this game to a show to get feedback ?
Looking at the videos etc I think feedback isn't going to be good. They may have folks tell them to start over. Maybe that was the plan all along.
If they say they have to start over they can fart around for a couple more years and still produce zero. Something isn't right with the big picture.
Where did they set up in the show ? Whats with the hotel chairs jammed around the machine ? If you can't set up a proper booth to showcase your product, what are you doing back at the shop.
Doesn't look very promising for a game that has had a couple years work off a previous design. Not a great presentation.

Peolple are always complainig about everything. At least now we have a game to look at and it looks great. No one still knows really how it plays but the bashing already started.
If you can no longer feel joy regarding new project maybe some here should change hobbies.

#5886 23 days ago
Quoted from zaphX:

The ramp shot is not bricky, in fact it’s pretty easy to make. It takes a good firm shot to make it around the corkscrew and up the “hill” which feels great when you do! If you don’t make it up the hill, it rolls back down and drops out of a hole in the center area. This is accompanied by an amusing roller coaster fail animation.

It seems to be like the MM right ramp: need a strong shot. After, it’s sastisfying

#5973 22 days ago
Quoted from daudioguy:

I don't participate in Pinside much except when I see something completely untrue. For the record: the Houston RAZA code is deep but not wide. By that I mean four modes are completely functional with LEFF, DEFF, audio and rules. The main multiball is complete as well. The end of ball bonus sequence scores and has its AV. Extra Ball is wired in and Deeproot studios created a very funny animation for that. Player select-able Skill-shot and Super Skill-shot is being awarded.....There is more but my point is made.
The remainder of the modes, hurry ups, lane games remain to be done.
There is a lot more to come but RAZA programming is, by far, a lot more than skeleton code.
back to your regular programming
ddt

This thread is depressing. Seems like some know everything guys know with 2 poors minutes in video exactly what was coded in this game and know the skeleton framework. Be my guest who has done skeleton games here? My 2 cents.
The game looks great, looking forward to see more.

#5979 22 days ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

.. this amount of progress was not encouraging.

When I read the interview, DR insisted on the fact it was an early prototype with the early purpose is to get feedback. Constructive feedback is better than just negativity. Pinball is (really) hard.

They might also read this thread and get all they can get, who knows...

Edit: from pinballmaniac message: it confirms it

#5983 22 days ago
Quoted from cjchand:

It is when people who have not laid hands on the game express misinformed opinion as fact that it becomes a fools errand to try and share our experience with the community.

Great way to say it.

#6070 22 days ago
Quoted from LTG:

And these guys had to finish many of them. There is a Steve Ritchie article in an Australian pinball magazine around 1999 that goes into detail.

LTG : )

WCS for sure: he was a newbye. For the others, it’s less obvious and it has always been a team effort at Williams. Ideas came from the team too. CV was even co-designed with Cameron so doesn’t mean anything. Main PF, toys signatures and design was under his direction.
Honestly, I have respect for SR, but he has been a newbyes too at some point and all his designed were not great. At the same time, it’s a bit dumb to think JPop is a god for design.
Stories, sometimes are more complex than black or white...

#6093 22 days ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

There's not a single "legend" in pinball design who's reputation rests on so little actual achievement. Jpop's games NEVER sold, were mostly disasters for ops. Most of his games have glaring flaws that render them useless in tournaments or for good players who don't want to be bored in a week. He's always relied on recycled gimmicks that are so old most people don't know they are from the 60s, magnets, and flamboyant fantasy artwork, while neglecting things that players value, like refined geometry and quality rulesets.
His games have their charms but the best playing one - by far - is also the one that was taken away from him halfway through and finished by people who knew what they doing (WCS). I don't know why people expect anything different but this is just more of the same. I just don't get the spell that JPOP has cast, the grip he has on pinball collectors. It might be time to get over it people.

Same stuff again and again like a broken record. We got your point...Speak for yourself, I know a lot of advanced player who like Tom, totan and so on. I think it’s the contrary, you should ask yourself why there is still hype after the Zidware disaster: maybe because the way those games play, even if different, have its fan zone. I m not saying they are perfect.
All the pin have not to be the same, gamewise.

#6104 22 days ago

I think I get why DR and some others no longer post anything here, don't saying all the posts was great or without patronizing.
If you make a mistake in here, it's like you're banned for life.
It's a bit scary.

I would think a lot of potential new projects, new pin, stopped in project phase, fears the burn we could get in here.

My only point is just: ok the pin is not 100% finished, they said it was a prototype. OK Robert say, I don't do prototype: stupid thing to say.

Does anyone with comon sense could believe, it's not a good idea to ask for feedbacks and knowing any potential flows before releasing a pin? Is it better to sell not finished pin like some does? I do work in the industry and nothing could be release with a huge test phase... moreover before delivering a pin to the masses.

This thread is turning to some kind of wars for 5 minutes of video of a unfinished pin and a designer. Seriously, those guys put their pride aside and asked for feedbacks, what was wrong with that?

Let's see in march who was right, yes maybe the pin will not be great, but I don't see the point of burning the project now (I get the guy past and so on...) if the pin is great it will sell I think (a lot) otherwise it will not. All those comments cannot foresee what will happen.
so be it.

I'm not sure all the potential buyer are reading this thread anyway and/or will judge by themselves.

#6110 22 days ago
Quoted from Manic:

Saying they "didn't need a prototype" was one of the LEAST offensive things RM said. The guy comes over here pissing on every other actual *functioning* pin manufacturer without a clue of what he was getting himself into.
So between his attitude and the guy that stole what?...over a quarter million dollars to pay himself to make *nothing*... I think the thread has been pretty damn positive.
The interesting thing is that despite how awful the vids look... the people that actually *played* the game pretty much all seemed to like it. I kept waiting to hear players bad-mouth it to death. Didn't happen.
This is in direct contrast to something like Thunderbirds that also looked like hell in videos and then was indeed almost universally hated when people actually got to play it.
So it has that going for it at least...

that's fair

#6236 20 days ago
Quoted from razorsedge:

Well I couldn't help but have a bit of a play with what could possibly be added without really changing the layout, and considering some things said about the code:
Steven Bowden - TWIP interview:
"However, connected to this is an X-story “tower” (not revealing how large “X” is) of other, more focused activities to accomplish where you can go deeper into the story… . You can have lots of fun hanging out in the base areas of the Adventureland, but what could be at the top of this hypothetical tower?"
So I'm guessing this somehow would tie to a "Tower Mech", a physical location on the playfield, and the 4 inserts above flippers. Also something pretty Suss!! ... the Total lack of inserts right between the slings, perfectly sized for a display?. That "NED" is certainly going to need to be animated at least, and maybe some interactivity or additional mech as well.
Here's my theoretical "premium RAZA" by covering a pic in grafiti lol
[quoted image]

great. It seems like we'll have 4 months of ideas of potential missing reveals!
I feel like extra display and animated tech are good leads as well.

(At lease now we have a pin to discuss... )

#6252 20 days ago
Quoted from Pinballer67:

Why wasn't it a stronger reveal?.

Because it was not. The intent was to test a prototype.
For the rest have you done market analysis to know the NIB sales? By brand? The playfield issues may have calm down everybody but just for 2 brands but it’s not the end of pinball and the world.

Funny thing here we see always the same avatar for negative comments and positive. Seems like a fan club for negativity here too
We still need to hear the broken record but at the end the final product might shut some mouths, I hope... i really don’t care what DR said or their marketing approach, seems like a big deal for some. I will not put a poster of DR in my room even if they release the best pin ever.
I personally don’t like any recent pins moreover Stern. My Alien is an exception.
I don’t to pay crazy price for a feel cheap pin with bad taste design with unfinished code but it’s my opinion. In the 90’s they were working hard on design and creativity: moreover WMS and capcom. I’m nostalgic....

Generic question: what have we seen revolutionary since pinball 2000 released 19 years ago? What? Big lcd screen? Wow... p3 is the only one.
DR is supposed to have the gut to try with the risk behind. We will see but they didn’t revealed anything as stated in their interview...

#6263 20 days ago

"As for NIB sales, companies keep these figures very close to their chest. Anecdotally, several of the vendors at Chicago Expo said their sales were down quite a bit. Some even said they wouldn't be returning in 2020, it wasn't worth their time."

interesting. Maybe the price increase is not for nothing. When I started collecting pinball 7 years ago, you could find TZ like new for 1500 euros so those stupid prices has consequences at the end. At the same time, it's difficult to know exactly what's going on since new designers are coming, stars and show are paid (Elvira) and so on...

It could come also from changing the way they distribute their products too

#6267 20 days ago
Quoted from Pinballer67:

That was their reveal, whether they like it or not. Even if you are an established business, like Stern, you shouldn't test your machine in public (and I'm sure you'll never see Stern testing a machine in public). Let alone when you are a company who is releasing their first pinball ever, has insinuated that it will be superior to everything else out there...and everybody is watching.

I really don't see what's wrong with that. It's a new company, it's their first pin, they got several ongoing pins and they wanted feedback for one.
Again what is best: wait the released and point out all the could have been things missed ?
They want to have a spread judgment larger than their 10 engineers working in closed space on the same project every day...
Really I don't get what's wrong.
Stern has been around for decades with DE and Sega and JJP was a large pinball supplier already...

Selling big intend is not the same than selling 500 pins.

#6269 20 days ago
Quoted from cjchand:

I spoke with the DR folks at length, as well, and it's clear that DR was holding stuff back. To Levi's point, the real question is how much.
There's two broad options:
1) What we saw was 80%+ what we'll see in March, with most of the changes being spit, polish, process... and a sprinkle of "innovation"
2) Robert's promises come true and we get our minds blown
My vote is for #1. All of the "innovation" we keep fight.. erm, disagreeing about is not likely to be above the playfield.
Lame, but pertinent, example: I noticed when they popped the playfield that every mech was connected via Molex connectors. Been done a million times, especially by folks like Chris at HEP. But, imagine how much simpler - and cheaper and less error-prone - it is to assemble a pin when you don't have to solder stuff on the assembly line. Not a "mind blown" situation, but it is an example of how I expect DR to keep costs down.
IMHO, folks expecting levitating balls and augmented reality are likely to be sorely disappointed, though it's easy to understand how they were led to expect that kind of stuff.
My guess is the "innovation" will be more around online connectivity and manufacturing efficiencies and the final product will still look like most other pinball machines.
Until then, we get to bitch about who is wrong Look forward to having a beer at TPF and finding out who is right!

I liked your comment but I hope you're wrong

#6275 19 days ago
Quoted from cjchand:

It’s a win-win. If I’m right, I win the Pinside guessing game. If I’m wrong, we get a lot of cool new pinball stuff

Exactly

#6523 18 days ago
Quoted from razorsedge:

Might be worth listening again.... well, My selective hearing did not hear it that way at least. I did listen to it again after the misguided post, just because the post description sounded way off to me, compared to what I heard RM saying. Confirmed, I believe It Was way off (the post). Also confirmed by ZY.... after discovering what pinside said was essentially Rubbish(ing).
Zidware art was a "hack-job", as in still not integrated to theme/story. He speaks in the same context on both Zidware and DR RAZA. People not comprehending context is where half this nonsense comes from on pinside, I'm replying to your post because it fails to consider.... the same as Chris seemed to fail to consider, requiring RM to clarify. Which he did. But people still know better, that is pinside.... and why manufacturers and designers are smart to stay out of here, unfortunately.

What I don’t get is being so sensitive to the marketing or talk. Worst case scenario: a new company come in the market and add competitivity , better choice for the customer, the competiters might propose new things, price decrease, who knows... maybe and big risk taken from DR could hurt who? It’s their money... For an anemic industry with nothing new for decades... (aside P3 again). Some of the guys in here who for some will never buy those pins anyway has nothing else to do in their life but bashing and others will change their mind with the wind in couple months if successful?

Only one thing is sure: you don’t want to spread too much informations, because some are spending all their time and life conjecturing all the potential failures, wow so great... those so brillant, for most, has never started any project but all their life is in here.

Pinball is hard but even harder with no support whatsoever and flames.

#6727 12 days ago
Quoted from DakotaMike:

Thanks for linking this Nadine. Best video I've seen to date. High resolution, you can hear some of the machine audio, see the display, and it has a good player on the pin. If Deeproot had just done a video like this alongside the prototype unveiling, it would have quelled a lot of the negative speculation.

Exactly my thoughts

#6739 12 days ago
Quoted from Shapeshifter:

Looks more fun in that video.
And there are 4 battles to be coded so it could end up being a pretty cool game.
That said, that right ramp is a design flaw, pure and simple.
It's BS that 'it's meant to roll back'.
Fix that and this game could surprise a lot of people.

Not sure it’s a flaw yet. It might come from weak flipper. The MM right ramp is also hard to achieve. That’s something which needs double checking for sure with a new sample.

#6767 11 days ago
Quoted from Russell:

I haven't seen RAZA yet, but it sure sounds like a lot of people making excuses for a poorly designed ramp. Reminds me of the Houdini-apologists.

So what are you doing here?
You’re patronizing?

#6785 10 days ago
Quoted from pinlink:

THE FLIPPER POWER WAS TURNED DOWN. Not sure how many times it needs to be repeated.

Around 6 months left with DR just coming newbies always saying the same stuff again.
I think DR have heard all the critics anyway. If they want to mass product it, it better be ready. During the show, they seriously asked for feedbacks. I chose to believe in their capacity to deliver great pins, maybe because they deserve a chance for it. I still might be too enthousiast with things...
The guy who sold me my first pin some years ago used to own 140 pins, one of the biggest collector in France. Now he left the hobby,sold everything, and the pinball is behind him... He doesn’t even want to discuss it.
I just feel that this hobby needs some dreams and new projects to continue for some.

#6790 10 days ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

it’s a PROTOTYPE?!

This thread seems a bit repetitive, isn’t it? Even the humor

#6793 9 days ago
Quoted from stantman:

You can repeat it as many times as you want. It doesn't mean it's true, and it also doesn't mean the ramp wasn't a terrible design choice. Why would somebody showing off their game for the first time and hoping for real gameplay feedback/logs intentionally turn down the flippers and make one of the few potentially fun features on the game a chore to shoot? The videos I've seen show the flipper power to be fine for everything else. If the strength had to be turned down to avoid destroying elements closer to the flippers, then the game has contradictory design elements. If it's because the closer elements were 3D printed instead of being made out of a more durable production material, that might make more sense, but then they still didn't get the gameplay data they were hoping to get. Maybe they were just watching to see if people who understand the rules? Doesn't look like they were that complex or different from the norm. Maybe they were watching to see if the machine would hold up to a few days abuse? Don't really need random people at a show to give you that data.
This reveal was a complete head-scratcher all the way around. I'm not sure why people are trying to defend the terrible design or the poor choice to reveal the game this way. If you think the reveal doesn't matter, and you're waiting for the actual who-knows-when-it-will-be-ready release, then I'd think you wouldn't want to be reading this thread yet.

Interesting. I think you’re ready to run your own business without those flaws. Looking forward to see it and support it.

#6831 7 days ago

this is the intent: (Steve Bowden inteview on TWIB)

"If you make the ramp powerfully, it will go past the diversion point and go down the left. If you make it “normally”, it will come down the right. If you don’t make it and you make it past the one way gate, it will bounce back off the one way gate and back into play. People started to learn this and they started to use the one way gate to get the ball into the snack shop targets which you can’t hit directly."

1 week later
#6875 2 hours ago
Quoted from eneatoluzzo:

Mr Popadiuk is an authentic genius from one side.
I was in his lab in the October 2015.
And.. there was the same (or like the same) version of RAZA.
He knows what he do. About MAKE pinball. About CREATE games.
But he was not able to produce adequate software for his new pinball machines and as you can see in the few units produced by the magic girl he was not able to design a compact and modern hardware.
In fact, I had asked him and two friends to help him with the development of the cards.
I built a complete set for him.
But my American friend who had to give them to him had repeatedly asked him to have permission to produce the Magic Girl for the European market, granting us the rights. Since he was not interested in producing this pinball for the European market.
Rightly, only America existed in its perspective.
After several attempts we came to a conclusion.
Popadiuk is a genius but only in some pinball processes.
And in my opinion the situation was unmanageable.
He, as far as I know, wanted the cards before signing the contract. Be work. Which in reality he did not want to sign any authorization for European rights. But he wanted the old way that everything was certified by a handshake.
My friend didn't like it very much.
So after it came to nothing and after discovering that it was already working with another person on software and hardware, we gave up.
This is what I know.
So the choice to leave it alone as a designer seems to me more correct.
He himself admits in a recent interview that he is unable to finish a pinball by himself.
So for me that's it.
Popadiuk have to make what he could make better: design.
I'm surprised that he take his old project, like it was, and showed to all now in the 2019, after 4 years.
Little changes, but project was the same. RAZA

Thanks for sharing this story. Interesting . Sure that refusing a handshake over a contract was a wise decision. I have to say that it’s a bit disappointing for the european market but at the end, the whole project fall off, so..

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