(Topic ID: 203700)

deeproot Pinball thread

By pin2d

1 year ago

Topic Stats

  • 5,068 posts
  • 520 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 10 days ago by PinballManiac40
  • Topic is favorited by 162 Pinsiders


Linked Games

Topic Gallery

There have been 434 images uploaded to this topic. (View topic image gallery).

B7FE6E20-91F8-4FDF-92D4-7683F00F093C (resized).jpeg
empty-food-tray (resized).png
vid (resized).jpg
20190925_070340 (resized).png
Unknown (resized).jpg
ohboy (resized).png
IMG_0511 (resized).png
447c8610a3b79442829d783273164d21 (resized).jpg
718b232e66758b55f5386ceaf8dbf0f8c1c8fe4f.jpg (resized).png
47DBD935-7B03-4BF0-B6ED-005843A02EB8 (resized).jpeg
claritinclear01 (resized).jpg
3axwxo (resized).jpg
47313_1_640px (resized).jpg
1816DA01-F79A-4D0A-93A8-149DB76209FA (resized).jpeg
download (1) (resized).jpg

Topic index (key posts)

2 key posts have been marked in this topic

Post #111 Firsthand information from the Magic Girl programmer. Posted by applejuice (1 year ago)

Post #3026 RAZA promotional video Posted by vireland (5 months ago)

Topic indices are generated from key posts and maintained by Pinside Editors. For more information, or to become an editor yourself read this post!

You're currently viewing posts by Pinsider lpeters82.
Click here to go back to viewing the entire thread.

#165 1 year ago

Can't wait to see what they have to say. I'm all for giving a new company a chance, but still don't understand why they choose to take on the baggage of JPop. Seems they have started to make good on promises to Apple Juice and Zombie, so that's a start in the right direction. I really just don't want to see anyone else hurt. My biggest fear is that they will become patent trolls, trying to make their money by filing lawsuits against other manufacturers.

#254 1 year ago
Quoted from Makakka:

That has the potential to bring down Stern. Stern lost the right to sell the most pins a few years ago but noone was able to take their crown yet. I believe deeproot can!

This doesn't seem like it would be good for pinball. Competition is one thing, but I would hate to see Stern fail.

#306 1 year ago
Quoted from dannylite:

I got it! I got it! Quad assembly duh? 4 designers, 4 playfields, 1 cabinet!

That actually makes a lot of sense. I bet the idea is to have multiple game that can be swapped into a single cabinet. That also might explain the hinting at a different type of display. Still doesn't explain how they will be manufactured. They're still going to have to manufacture the playfields plus do all of the coding, graphics, sound, etc.

RM: We won’t have a ‘first’ title in that sense.

#314 1 year ago

Regardless, based on what's been said, I'm still thinking that's their plan. That also could explain the desire to bring in JPop given his work on Star Wars Episode I for Pinball 2000.

#316 1 year ago
Quoted from lpeters82:

Regardless, based on what's been said, I'm still thinking that's the plan. That also could explain the desire to bring in JPop given his work on Star Wars Episode I for Pinball 2000.

#385 1 year ago
Quoted from deeproot:

Our only response to AP's post is that their statements are not true, they contradict their attorney's private statements, they contradict the contract they voluntarily drafted and entered into with John, and (as to the trademark) appear to contradict federal law. We are proceeding with John's original Houdini design but not the Houdini name; which is consistent with our prior statement.

Cool?!? I'm dying to see what the target switch on the side of the shooter lane is for.

Quoted from DngrWillRobinson:

I've got your magician right here, can't lose with this guy. Hell, he even likes big shiny silver balls.

Reminds me of this:

1 week later
#421 1 year ago

What happens if someone signs the goodwill terms and they are unhappy with these mystery machines? Say they are like Zizzels or The Pin. Intentional or not, wouldn't they then be S.O.L. Things seem to be vague enough that they could legally be anything. Did I read it correctly that buyers could just take a 50% refund now?

#429 1 year ago

I sincerely hope this works out for everyone. I just don't want to see anyone in worse condition. An example, would be not being made whole and legally losing there ability to sue.

#437 1 year ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

so it is all a scam to TRY and get people already duped to give you more deposit money and pot in to another JPOP scam???
WOW!!! WTF!!!!

I don't think they are asking for money until the "delivery day". My only fear at this point is that somehow signing this contract could eliminate any legal leverage current customers might have against John / Zidware. Obviously if deeproot comes through with their promises, games "designed and manufactured similar to the commonly known Williams/Bally/Zidware standards", that will likely not be an issue. Though, I'd question tossing Zidware into the list. I just want to know what happens if they fail to meet that "similar to" standard. Further, I would like to know what happens if deeproot fails, as in, they fail to produce the machines, nor have the capitol to refund deposits. I'm assuming this would make this new contract null and void, but I just don't want to see anyone loose there legal leverage.

#439 1 year ago

Yeah, on it's surface this seems like a promising option, but I have hesitation. Hopefully, that's just being overly cautious, but every option up until this point, has failed. At best. Many have caused more harm. I would hope that deeproot is understanding of this hesitation. By associating with John, they have taken on a lot of baggage. Now they have to deal with that baggage, before they will earn my full support. Still, I hope they do get to that point. I also understand that for others, there is no possibility they could ever support a company associated with John. I totally get that too. I do think the fact that deeproot has settled with Applejuice and Zombie Yeti, is a step in the right direction. Obviously, we're never going to get the full details, but it's safe to assume that all parties thought it was in their best interest to sign the agreement.

#441 1 year ago

To be fair, aren't these guys where American Pinball was two years ago?

#459 1 year ago

They didn't mention handling, did they? I think paying for taxes and shipping seems reasonable.

#466 1 year ago
Quoted from Slash:

I really don't like the swagger and way this guy/business promotes itself.
For people concerned about Zidware buyers signing away their legal rights, if they weren't already part of the Zidware lawsuit then clearly it appears they had very little appetite for legal action anyhow. I guess this offer is at least a carrot for something. Whether it eventuates is a whole other thing, but I can't see much downside for them. They sure as hell weren't getting something from John and had declined to take legal action so it appears they had written their money off. At least now they have a flicker of hope.

That's basically where I'm at. If you had zero interest in suing John / Zidware in past or future, I don't see what you're out by agreeing to these terms. About the only thing I can think of, beyond what's been stated, is that you might be helping John (and others) to profit from the intellectual rights generated while John was paying himself a salary from others money. If this these promises end up being unfulfilled, it's possible you've removed your name from the list that would otherwise stand in the way of using these intellectual rights. I don't understand how American Pinball, and now Deep Root, came to the realization it would be worth the baggage, but whatever. We are, where we are.

#522 1 year ago
Quoted from swillie:

For some reason I was thinking one if they plan to remove alot of the physical switches from the playfield and instead use camera/software to 'track' the ball/balls and trigger hits that way.

A bit off topic, but camera facial recognition has gotten crazy good. I was just looking though Google Photo and it was impressive how they were able to produce slideshows of my twins. Even when they were babies they could sort the pictures by either of them correctly. I sometimes had trouble. If this is the public level we're seeing it's almost scary to think what technology the government might have access too.

Anyway, back on topic. Assuming some software could be programmed to track a pinball, that could have the ability to vastly reduce the assembly cost of machines. Targets, switches, etc. no longer would need to be wired. I have no idea what a system like that would cost though. Seems like it would be as much or more then traditional manufacturing.

Reminds me of this:

#532 1 year ago
Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:

MultiMorphic already tracks the pinball as it rolls over their interactive playfield. One of the modes in Lexy Lightspeed - Escape From Earth you roll over crates to smash them open. Another you fill virtual mugs of delicious beverage, then drink them.

Yeah, think I played it at Expo. Does it use a touch screen to track the ball?

1 week later
#573 1 year ago

I think most of us want Deep Root to succeed, as in fulfill the promises they have made to Zidware customers. We've just been through it so many times, caution seems warranted.

In terms of P.R., I prefer a more humble; under promise, over deliver approach, but as long as they deliver that isn't really a major issue for me.

Then there is the whole Bible Adventure thing. That seems like a pretty shitty thing to do to a guy like Ben.

At this point they have a lot to prove.

#578 1 year ago

Signing Jpop does nothing for Zidware customers by itself. That's something others have tried and failed. Hopefully this attempt will be different.

#598 1 year ago
Quoted from HeavyMetalBalls:

Can anybody at least acknowledge that deeproot signing John was a good thing for the zidware customers? You all hate deeproot for what JOHN did to zidware customers. But bitch at a company who comes along and tries to fix it

There are many who no longer want John to be associated with pinball, period. In an ideal world, John would refund all Zidware customers and then just disappear from the world of pinball. I get the thought that perhaps signing him is an option for helping Zidware customers, but it's damn near 20 years since the guy has designed a functional machine. Maybe it's time for him to find a different profession and work on paying people back himself. The fact that Ben Heck is leaving pinball before JPop is kind of bumming me out.

#609 1 year ago
Quoted from toyotaboy:

I don't know how you pay back a million dollars (and still have some minimal salary to live on) without some high risk high return profession (pinball), or team up with a lawyer who is going to negotiate you out of this mess (Robert), or in this case both. Supposedly John was doing sub-contract work as an independent artist between End of Williams and Zidware (beyond zizzle). As much as these announcements by deeproot sound like a lot of hot air, this is honestly John's best chance of getting out of this giant mess.

I don't totally disagree. Perhaps what should have happened was for deeproot to reach out to zombie and applejuice right away. Negotiate deals with them in secret and then just start working on machines. Hire whoever they want, but don't announce or reply to anything...total radio silence. When machines are ready, make this huge splash by announcing to all Zidware customers that they can come and pick up their machines. The entire pinball world would have had a "WTF" moment. Zero drama, just a standing round of applause.

EDIT: Is pinball a high return profession?

#617 1 year ago
Quoted from toyotaboy:

I think that was Robert's original intent, but there are too many pinside slueth's that stumbled on his website.

As a designer, for some. I meant more that the pinballs themselves are low volume, and hence typically high margin. Unlike someone who works at Stern and makes a straight paycheck, it's possible deeproot promised Jpop a percentage of sales.

I hope they are successful and have a positive impact on the overall future of pinball.

3 weeks later
#744 1 year ago
Quoted from Roostking:

They have taken a beating on Pinside without people seeing games. They need to change that narrative and let pinsiders get to actually know the company, good or bad.

Now they just need to produce. I don't really know what else they could say at this point. If I were advising them, I'd tell them to perhaps release a short update each month, but beyond that just work on the machines.

1 month later
#824 1 year ago

Based on their current communication, when someone buys a deeproot game they will have to sign a contract to give it a perfect score on the Pinside ranking system. Further you can never make a post indicating there is anything wrong with said game.

2 months later
#1130 1 year ago

I was just thinking about that spoof commercial today. Wasn't expecting it to be posted here.

#1150 1 year ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

Copperfield blows compared to Penn and Teller. Copperfield's show in Vegas was lame when i saw it.

I read reviews that for the past few years he's just been going through the motions. Every once in awhile people catch him on a good night, but most of the time the show is lacking any energy. After reading that I choose to see Matt Franco instead. I thought it was okay, but I wish we were closer. I'm not sure any magic show would be in my top five for Vegas. If you're going to see a show now either see Absinthe or Love.

Sorry...back on topic. I don't see the need to redo Houdini at this point. Go with Magic Girl and then give us something different. There are enough themes out there I don't see the need to step on so many toes with Houdini and Bible Adventures.

1 week later
#1285 1 year ago

My favorite display style to date has been The Big Lebowski.

#1294 1 year ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

IMO it was foolish. Very expensive custom aspect ratio LCD (it wasn't a larger one running letterboxed). Simulating dots from higher res. content when there were loads of movie assets ....
To me it was the worst part of the presentation, and silly unneeded extra cost. All they need have done was change the backglass / speaker panel ratios and used a vastly cheaper laptop like screen a la Stern / Spooky / Houdini.

I know nothing about the costs, but in terms of looks I prefer that aspect ratio. I also like the pixels.

1 month later
#1489 1 year ago

Damn, I'm already doing a retheme on my Hardbody. Someone needs to turn theirs into a Sweatin' to the Oldies.

#1556 1 year ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

Blade Runner is a slow movie with slow music and nearly no action,... not the ideal theme for a fast flowing game of pinball.

I totally agree with that, but someone could probably create something in the "world" of Blade Runner. It was set in 2019, so timing wise, it seems like next year would be appropriate. Not something I'd be too excited about, but it certainly has a following.

4 weeks later
#1872 11 months ago

Hmm...I don't know. Has anyone found the above artwork anywhere else online? Creating a custom piece of artwork is a lot of trouble to go though for a fake. I'd be more skeptical if it was something like this (see below). I mean, I'm an idiot with Photoshop and I created that in a few minutes, but it would take some effort to try to create what was posted above.

Deadflip BTTF2 (resized).jpg

EDIT: Previous artwork has been found elsewhere online. I now believe the original post is a more likely then not a fake.

#1878 11 months ago

...and the "fake" artwork has been taken down.

EDIT: Previous artwork has been found elsewhere online. I now believe the original post is a more likely then not a fake.

#1885 11 months ago
Quoted from speederice:

User 1iblind found the BTTF image here. It's a fanart for a never-going-to-be-released 4th movie: https://www.artstation.com/artwork/10yD2

Okay, thanks much. I retract my previous comments.

#1889 11 months ago
Quoted from yancy:

...and it's obviously not from there. You think 5th grade skill could cleanly remove that logo from the artwork? Nice try, smart guy.

Only since I feel bad for falling for it, I'll answer honestly...I have below a 5th grade skill and could quite easily remove (,or trim, or replace) that logo from the original artwork.

#1892 11 months ago

Given how small the actual image was it wouldn't have been taken all that long, but your way is certainly better. I tried the reverse image search too, but didn't dig too deep into the results to find the clean image.

PS: I finally took down your pop bumper (default champion) on my TNA. I think it might have been the last record to fall.

#1894 11 months ago
Quoted from yancy:

Nice! Seems like it would be easy with the pop bumper so exposed, but any game where you hit the bumper a lot is usually a short one.

Yeah, I've actually tried for it specifically in the past, but that didn't work out so well.

4 weeks later
#1970 10 months ago

TWIP: You have said in the past that “Pinball is Easy” – do you still believe that?
RM: I’ve been very clear. Pinball is easy because there are no excuses for failing to deliver value, quality, and quantity. But everything that goes into making pinball is definitely (not for the faint of heart) complex.

Perhaps a more clear way of saying this is to drop the whole, "Pinball is easy" part and just say, "There are no excuses for failing to deliver value, quality, and quantity."

2 weeks later
#2200 10 months ago
Quoted from benheck:

Why doesn't deeproot just save Alien or TBL?
I ask rhetorically, knowing the likely answer is Robert doesn't like those games or find then pretty enough.
But I think owners should set aside what they personally like (cough cough Charlie) and focus on what the market is asking for.

I'd start saving pennies if Spooky ever committed to building The Big Lebowski. With that said, does Spooky have the capacity for a much larger market share, without expanding to a more urban area? They went from what what 150 to 300 to 500 to 500. I certainly could be wrong, but a run of 750 or 1000 seems near capacity in Benton.

#2205 10 months ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

He's making a critique of the way he considers that Charlie has run Spooky - doing what he likes rather than that which may be good for business. Not suggesting that Spooky should build TBL.

My point is, if they are reaching capacity by doing what they like, are they really leaving any money on the table by not doing what's "good for business"?

#2208 10 months ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

What does this have to do with the comment? Ben's comment was about the choice in titles and game economics - not about the choice to stay 'right sized' and not grow.

I'm not sure I'm following. If they choose more popular titles, with no capacity to produce more games, what is the economic benefit?

1 month later
#2346 8 months ago
Quoted from Borygard:

I definitely get the anger and hate, I personally lost a lot to the whole ordeal.
However, I don't think JPop should continue to be chastised so much. He definitely screwed up, and obviously has issues, but he's never thrown his hands up and said fuck it. He's continued to look for some kind of solution to get what he's promised done. He could have very easily just done what SkitB, Heighway, VonnieD, and Dutch have done and just walked away. He continued to try to get the games built though, to the point of getting two different, new pinball manufacturers involved.
Rob Anthony
Pinball Classics
Quality Board Work - In Home Service

I totally get that, but with John it seemed like each new attempt to make things right hurt more people. It was essentially a giant pyramid scheme. Is Deeproot going to be the foundation of that pyramid, or are they just going to be another layer of disappointment? Only time will tell. I'm not rooting against Deeproot (ha, ha...rooting). I do however worry that their version of success might be hurtful to other manufacturers. I hope we are not entering into an era of crazy pinball patents and lawsuits.

#2381 8 months ago
Quoted from HeavyMetalBalls:

Yesterday Kaneda talked a little bit about deeproot. He said a buddy of his has seen what's going on at deeproot and when they launch it's gonna blow everything out of the park.

Capture (resized).JPG

4 weeks later
#2477 7 months ago

Until they have something to show, Deeproot is doing exactly what they should be doing, staying quiet.

#2501 7 months ago
Quoted from Bublehead:

Unless you have endless cash...
My favorite pinball daydream has always been some well connected money man with deep pockets gets hooked on pinball, and the only way to satisfy his ravenous pinball appetite is to buy Stern, or JJP, or CGC and dump obscene ammounts of money into them and start pumping out titles and machines like back to back.
Well, right now, DR is the closest thing going to that pipe dream. I am wondering, though, does DR’s story end in success, failure, or with people behind bars?

That's great for the short term, but could also be the end for competition. I'll take slow and steady with a healthy business model versus a flash in the pan.

1 month later
#2750 6 months ago
Quoted from Rondogg:

Silence does them no good.

I totally disagree. I feel like their second mistake, after hiring JPop, was talking too much, too early. Until they are ready to show something, I applaud them for trying to stay as quiet as possible. I don't think any amount of talking is going to convince people to all of a sudden start trusting a company who's first hire was JPop. With that said, I'm ready to be "wowed" by results.

#2755 6 months ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

People love his games, that's why they all fell for him... again, and again and again...

Yet, he hasn't produced a functional game in the last 20 years. Again, I want them to succeed AND for their success to be an overall positive for pinball.

#2771 6 months ago
Quoted from BMore-Pinball:

How is this thread 56 pages without any real info on the machines yet.

Step 1, hire JPop
Step 2, ?
Step 3, Profit

#2821 5 months ago

The video is great. I hope they can follow it up with some great gameplay.

#2926 5 months ago
Quoted from benheck:

"Modern" pinball machines are laughably primitive compared to most other things.
If a large tech driven company bothered to do anything in the realm of Pinball they would squash every company like an elephant on an ant.

If it were modernized they might attract a new audience, but do you think the current audience would follow?

#2958 5 months ago

Here is a quick video of John Papadiuk talking about Retro Atomic Zombieland on the Ben Heck Show back in 2011. Pretty crazy how he was able to rationalize the problems with finishing machines back then, yet still started multiple machines, without the ability to actually finish a single one of them. Hopefully, with enough cash and talent around him we actually see some finished machines.

#2972 5 months ago
Quoted from toyotaboy:

lots of people design a pinball for a decade..
yea, they're called jpop
#davidspade #tommyboy

I thought it might be interesting to try to date just how long it's been since JPop designed a full-size functional pinball machine.

* Gas costs were on average $1.25 per gallon
* Barry Sanders was still in the NFL
* Vince Carter was a rookie in the NBA
* Pre-Y2K
* Jon Snow and Daenerys Targaryen were in elementary school
* Spice Girls were on tour
* We were still two years away from the first Harry Potter movie
* There was no Xbox
* Williams was still producing pinball machines

Again, I want there to be a redemption, but it's a little unbelievable that anyone is still willing to invest so much into him after this many years.

#2976 5 months ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

Last JPop game is from 2006.


#2979 5 months ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

Or 2007, 2008. License was aquired in 2006.
[quoted image]
And no, I shit you not.

Fair enough, I edited my post to include "full-size".

#2981 5 months ago
Quoted from Multiballmaniac1:

Jpop gets so much hatred. Not cool he tried so hard. He’s also a good faithful family man.

Zero hatred from me, but I also am not out any money. I want him to pay back his many debts and don't understand why a company would knowingly take on that baggage on a designer who hasn't produced a full-size functional pinball machine in the past 20 years. However, I don't need to understand. If DeepRoot can assist those who lost money, that's a positive for our hobby.

Quoted from wolfemaaan:

And his games are still better than any pins released in the last 20 years.
It’s going to be difficult for him to Top already what’s in the top 20, but hopefully he pulls it off

I liked his pinball machines too.

1 week later
#3290 5 months ago

It's probably something most don't notice, unless it's "off".

#3367 5 months ago
Quoted from RobT:

Even if that's true, that does not explain what the consideration given by Zidware buyers to Deeproot is.

Pinball is a relatively small-niche hobby. I wouldn't even consider a new JPop game from Deeproot unless they made things right with his past customers. I assume there must be others who feel the same. While there likely is little legal repercussions, I assume the negative PR must outweigh the cost of fulfilling those debts. I don't feel JPop is worth that, at this point, but obviously Deeproot disagrees. Either way, I applaud Deeproot for taking on those debts and settling with Applejuice and others.

#3375 5 months ago
Quoted from RobT:

So it all comes down to goodwill. And that's great, but man, it sure seems like they are paying an awful lot for that goodwill.

I don't disagree, but look what happened with American Pinball. They started out with JPop and, following a wave of criticism, decided he wasn't worth the baggage. Deeproot seems to feel differently. Perhaps if they can surround him with enough talent it will work out.

#3381 5 months ago

To be fair, wasn't everything crashing around that time? I've had vendors tell stories of regrets for selling off during that period.

2 weeks later
#3515 4 months ago
Quoted from stevevt:

I want to root for you, but you are making it difficult.

No kidding. Pinball is such a niche hobby, I'm sure many Deeproot employees have friends at the companies there CEO, Robert, is openly trashing. The same thing has occasionally happened with Stern. 99% of the people at Stern are awesome, but there are a few total asshats, who seem to thrive on mean spirited drama. I'm sure the same is true at the other companies. Robert, please don't be a part of that 1%.

3 weeks later
#3821 4 months ago

I think it looks good. More interested to see how they will manufacture games, but they have some good artists on staff...cool.

1 month later
#4424 71 days ago
Quoted from tbutler6:

Will be interesting to see how the market changes when deep root brings it. Lots of people already unloading games cheap for Stern Jurassic Park...

Yep, the best time to buy used is when the next hot new toy is released.

1 week later
#4526 61 days ago
Quoted from CLEllison:

Another day of no updates from deeproot. Their silence is NOT doing them ANY favors.

Quoted from lpeters82:

I don't totally disagree. Perhaps what should have happened was for deeproot to reach out to zombie and applejuice right away. Negotiate deals with them in secret and then just start working on machines. Hire whoever they want, but don't announce or reply to anything...total radio silence. When machines are ready, make this huge splash by announcing to all Zidware customers that they can come and pick up their machines. The entire pinball world would have had a "WTF" moment. Zero drama, just a standing round of applause.

I stand by my statement from last year, the best thing they can do is to stay quiet until they have something real to show.

1 week later
#4687 53 days ago

Concerns about the top-100 are overrated.

Promoted items from the Pinside Marketplace
From: $ 18.00
Apparel - Men
Pinside Shop
From: $ 25.00
$ 5.00
$ 48.00
Cabinet - Other
ModFather Pinball Mods
$ 10.00
Playfield - Decals
Mods for your pinballs
$ 19.95
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
$ 28.00
Playfield - Other
Pin Monk
From: $ 19.99
$ 25.00
Playfield - Protection
Pinball Mod Co.
From: $ 99.00
Lighting - Under Cabinet
Rock Custom Pinball
$ 69.99
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
Lighted Pinball Mods
$ 74.00
Cabinet - Armor And Blades
Id Rather Play Pinball
$ 29.25
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
The MOD Couple
$ 37.00
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
The MOD Couple
$ 20.00
Lighting - Other
Professor Pinball
$ 229.99
Lighting - Other
Lighted Pinball Mods
$ 99.99
Lighting - Other
Lighted Pinball Mods
$ 2.00
Various Other Swag
Project Pinball Charity
$ 64.99
$ 235.00
Cabinet - Toppers
Id Rather Play Pinball
$ 129.00
Pappy's Pinball Palace
$ 130.00
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
Rods Mods

You're currently viewing posts by Pinsider lpeters82.
Click here to go back to viewing the entire thread.

Hey there! Got a moment?

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run thanks to donations from our visitors? Please donate to Pinside, support the site and get anext to your username to show for it! Donate to Pinside