deeproot Pinball thread

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#207 6 years ago

kermit24

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Quoted from Wolfmarsh:
Another piece of jargon spewed to seem "advanced".
You want to impress me about manufacturing? Throw out terms that mean something, like lean or six sigma.
What kind of ego comes out of the gate basically claiming they are going to smash everyone else's product. The only place to go from there is down.

This company reminds me of a hybrid between Dutch and Heighway Pinball. The brazen "we will crush you" attitude is similar to Dutch early on. Heighway has also retained the services of Dennis Nordman and Barry Oursler. So having names and an attitude doesn't really equate to any level of success historically.

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#343 6 years ago

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kermit24

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Just because you can doesn’t mean you should. The guy comes off as a total clown.

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#5421 4 years ago

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kermit24

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The volume point for this game is just a hair below a Stern Pro. $5500. If it’s over $6K it will be much tougher. I love JPOP ramps and this reminds me of WCS ramps.

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#5424 4 years ago

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Quoted from TKDalumni:
What’s their business model? Sell direct?

In the TWIP interview Robert mentions distributors.

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#5811 4 years ago

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The players in the video are almost as terrible as the camera work. Not a good way to do a game justice. Guess it’s just a rush to be the first one out with a video.

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#5891 4 years ago

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kermit24

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Quoted from Potatoloco:
Alright so I got to spend some time on it. I’d like to think I have a little skill to me as I won the state championship in Oklahoma and was ranked in the top 40 on the stern circuit for most of the season. These are my thoughts and my thoughts only, I don’t have a horse in this race and hope every pinball that comes out is successful.
The game is prototype for sure. I can’t speak for coding (very early stages) or artwork as I believe it’s not final. Many of the shots weren’t doing anything or were very buggy which was expected. What I can speak to is playfield design and how the shots were.
The right ramp has a feature with 3/4 of the middle of it missing completely. If you don’t hit this ramp solid, it won’t make it around the ramp without the speed. It’ll simply fall back to the playfield.
The skill shot can actually go to the outlane, similar to Congo. The kickback then sent it back up to an area that is like a “snake feed” that goes back to the playfield.
There is a magna save. It’s more similar to Pharaoh’s magna save and the button is on the right side of the cabinet. It’s in such a place that you won’t accidentally hit it.
One of the main multiball features is started by hitting a roving target in the back. It was supposed to spell zombie and then start a multiball we believe, but the software never allowed for that feature to start.
Alright so, how does it shoot? Honestly after about 20 minutes, I went from being really excited to play it to an uh-oh feeling. The game plays very slow.
The orbits were moderate to hit. The shots seemed earlier on the flippers than expected. Both shots seemed to feed back to the opposite flipper, though it hung up a couple of times.
The ramps were another story. We kept count. I was 0 for 12 getting the ball successfully up the ride the coasters ramp (right ramp). Not 0 for 12 misses, that’s how many rejects I had from a trap. Either the flippers weren’t strong enough or that shot is only an on the fly shot. Across 4 players we were 0 for 20. I’ll try the other pin today and see if that was just a fluke.
The dare devil cycle shot was reject city. We’d get clean hits, the bottom would kinda lift up and the ball would just come back to the flippers. Think of the Death Star shot on Star Wars, but without the speed and it being closer to you.
The atomic shop shot reminded me of the orb shot on GOTG. It was a fairly safe return. I think a ball was supposed to lock behind it, but when I hit it nothing happened.
The spinning Oozie shot really killed any flow of the game for me. The ball seemed to spend more time being deflected off of it and trickle back to flippers. We hit it a few times to spin it, but the shot itself wasn’t satisfying and seemed to be more of a flow killer.
I’m going to play it some more today and try out the other prototype they brought. I’ll probably have some more thoughts on it later today. As of right now I’m underwhelmed by the gameplay itself. Compared to JP and Wonka on shot flow or just design, it’s not in the same ball park. If you love these games, then I’d probably advised to dial down expectations when stepping up to RAZA. Shots on this aren’t necessarily tight as it is that the geometry just makes the game play ok. When you do brick a shot (and it’ll happen more often then not) it didn’t feel like you were going to be punished for it.
I’m sure the entire package (art/sound) will come together come March. I wish Deeproot the best and hope they can back up everything that has been touted for the past couple of years. I really want my expectations to be matched and for this to be a kick ass pin. At this point though, with how it actually plays, it was underwhelming.

Seems like most of the complaints you list are resolved with stronger flippers. And remember it is a prototype.

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#5913 4 years ago

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kermit24

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I actually feel the overall attitude / reaction is pretty positive. It is easy to focus on the few haters, but overall the majority seem to like what they see and are waiting on the final product and actually flipping it.

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#6128 4 years ago

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kermit24

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Quoted from rubberducks:
You're missing the stark staringly obvious role for him. Not having one.
If they want a decent art director, it isn't JPop.

Why don’t you just start a thread about how much you hate JPOP? We get it, you have been peeing in everyone’s Cheerios for the last 5 pages of this thread.

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#7366 4 years ago

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kermit24

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I think people are tired of talk talk talk. Thankfully they are going to be showing (and shipping?) real games soon.

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#7368 4 years ago

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kermit24

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Quoted from Rdoyle1978:
Man I totally forgot about this thread and company. Hopefully they show you know... something eventually. I saw they made 3 of the Zombie games ... so that’s nice. But it’s been what.. 3+ years ?

The prototype RAZA games at the Houston show in 2019 were the first games they have shown to the public. They have an full unveiling event the week of Texas Pinball Festival.

https://deeprootpinball.com

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#7372 4 years ago

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kermit24

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Quoted from PinballManiac40:
I would not expect to see nothing other than RAZA based on the last interview that Robert did with Kaneda.

The 5 days of RAZA? What a letdown compared to the earlier expectations that Robert was setting.

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#7434 4 years ago

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Quoted from Wolfmarsh:
Don't forget, not only are they showing games, but they've said they have revolutionary manufacturing techniques........
Wasn't it "quad assembly" or something? Also playfield you can hit with a sledgehammer.

Just kidding.

Your pal,

Robert

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#7494 4 years ago

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kermit24

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Quoted from o-din:
[quoted image]

The genius / irony in this image was lost on 90% of pinside. Classic.

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#7497 4 years ago

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kermit24

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Quoted from DS_Nadine:
Nah, it just get‘s old after the 666th time.

Did that TV show even air in Germany?

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#7762 4 years ago

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kermit24

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Quoted from Roostking:
It was Ferret who downvoted.. Wonder why?

I'm not sure why everyone gets so butt-hurt when someone downvotes you. It simply means that they disagree. Nothing more than that. An internet forum is a place where people agree and disagree. Don't take everything so personally.

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#7765 4 years ago

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kermit24

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Quoted from JohnnyPinball007:
I have never down voted anyone. It just seems childish. Right or wrong everyone is entitled to their own opinion.
I do roll my eyes a lot reading some posts(mostly the flu ones about wearing dust masks).

FYI - Pinside has a setting there you can hide all votes, or only show the upvotes.

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#7783 4 years ago

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kermit24

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Quoted from wrb1977:
I can understand and respect someone not enjoying the countdown...but to downvote a Pinsider’s enthusiasm and excitement for the official launch of the company whose thread you are posting in???

I downvoted you complaining about downvotes. Because it’s a broken record and not necessary.

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#7818 4 years ago

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kermit24

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Without a major license game in the pipeline, how does deeproot expect to achieve scale?

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#7848 4 years ago

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kermit24

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Quoted from Rondogg:
Bible Stories. Based on the greatest selling book of all time!

gf.gif

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#7888 4 years ago

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kermit24

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Quoted from razorsedge:
Is MGC going to be cancelled too ?

I wouldn't expect any large gatherings in the next 30 days.

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#9874 3 years ago

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kermit24

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Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:
This thread is on fire! We are all here, full of hope and with many expectations, and yet dr gives us nothing ??? It is going to be hard for RAZA to match the hype.

I mean, we have all seen RAZA from the Houston show many many months ago. Yeah it wasn't complete, but seemingly the guts were there. How much hype does RAZA actually have?

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#10082 3 years ago

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kermit24

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Quoted from PoppyCock:
I wont be able to watch this live reveal at noon so where does one go to get caught up with unbiased opinions and commentary? Certainly not here! Can you watch these things over?

No one even knows where to see this supposed live event. I doubt its really live. Probably an edited video. The guy on twitch / youtube is just a chump trying to get subs.

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#10091 3 years ago

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kermit24

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Quoted from gonzo73:
DOW's down 900+ points right now, RM got more important things to watch today than his pinball hobby, turn on CNBC.
Message from the real world.
Bummer.

The whole financial market world is DEEPLY disappointed by deeproot.

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#10211 3 years ago

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kermit24

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+1 A.d.

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#10373 3 years ago

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kermit24

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Quoted from Jvspin:
You would think that with all the experienced industry people employed it wouldn't take some outsiders to come in and tell them when they're ready to launch.

That is the astonishing part.

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#10399 3 years ago

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kermit24

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Quoted from CrazyLevi:
I wonder how many of these "Dream teamers" are actually still employed and pulling a paycheck. You got that disgruntled Utah animation studio who posted here about the unceremonial end of their paychecks. Bowden posted "I MAY be taking a break recently." I'm sure Barry is off filming COVID Hoax youtube videos somewhere...is Deep Root a functioning company any more? I'm sure if all those dream teamers were around it wouldn't take a group of "pinball celebs" entering the building for them to figure out there were serious problems with the game design.

Didn't Nordman leave also? He left Heighway as a precursor to a shit show. Maybe his nose should be trusted.

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#10547 3 years ago

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kermit24

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Quoted from CrazyLevi:
I cannot believe they went into production model with that lockdown bar.
Haven't they ever played Stellar Wars? Those lockdown bar angles will bruise and crush your palms with every slap save.
And looks like kids won't be able to see the flippers. Maybe a fold out stool is another innovation.

So Steve Bowden has been playing this for months and didn't say anything? Bull.

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#10561 3 years ago

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kermit24

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Quoted from Compy:
So is a translite.

Not if the head has side art.

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#10885 3 years ago

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kermit24

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When it was JPOPs company, you could blame JPOP for the delays and issues. This is Robert's company. The buck stops with him.

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#10949 3 years ago

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kermit24

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Quoted from TreyBo69:
Now I imagine the meeting with Robert pulling off the tarp, proudly saying let's play a game, and then a very confused and defeated look on his face as he slowly realized no one thought to put on a start button.

I assumed it was on the lockdown bar touchsreeen.

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#11275 3 years ago

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kermit24

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Anyone find it strange that Cary Hardy isn't giving his opinion of any of this stuff? The video was just him reading the TWIP article. The only thing I picked up on is that he wasn't happy with the "orange peel" finish of the playfield. Is he not allowed to say if the game is any good?

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#11381 3 years ago

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kermit24

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The elephant in the room is their ability to manufacture at any scale. I'm confused why they would even announce without this part locked down and ready to go. They plan to simply outsource manufacturing? That isn't as easy as it sounds. I wish more of this plan would have been shared.

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#11456 3 years ago

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kermit24

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A platform is only as great as the games that can be played on it. Lets see more of the games and deeproot's ability to get them out the door.

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#11473 3 years ago

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kermit24

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Quoted from Pinballlew:
Not a dig but license what technology? The lockdown bar? It’s my speculation that the lockdown bar is the reason they delayed the launch. I haven’t touched one but it looks painful in its current state.

Maybe. But I also think the “orange peel” texture to the hammer proof playfield had a lot to do with it.

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#11527 3 years ago

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kermit24

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Quoted from TreyBo69:
Twisted Metal?

I would think yes.

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#11543 3 years ago

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kermit24

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Quoted from CrazyLevi:
Yeah that's pretty bad.
I've "used" two desks and one table today for about a combined 3 hours. I did not have grasp the edges, slap them, or try to move the table around with edges once.
Because they aren't pinball machine lockdown bars.
For shits and giggles I just pretended this corner - the one with the gorilla - was a pinball machine. It was uncomfortable to "play." Try it!
And then join the hive mind!

You'd think Steve Bowden would have giving such feedback if it was really that bad.

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#11683 3 years ago

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kermit24

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NDAs usually just stipulate that a party is not allowed to disclose information about something. I've never heard of someone being released from an NDA, and after the fact not being allowed to publicly state their own opinion of something. What type of journalist would agree to this?

Totally bizarre!

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#11763 3 years ago

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kermit24

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Quoted from DS_Nadine:
See you in Limbo!

Purgatory is the word you are looking for.

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#12480 3 years ago

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kermit24

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After watching the ramp shot a few times, it looks like the ball has assistance from a kicker or magnet to get all the way up.

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#12834 3 years ago

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kermit24

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Quoted from TreyBo69:
Robert likely saw some art and figured it surely must be ready for the line

Ready for what line?

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#12844 3 years ago

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kermit24

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Quoted from TreyBo69:
Yeah but Haggis doesn't use an all wood playfield. They do a thinner wood playfield with a layer of acrylic on top, similar to what Bally was doing on Elektra.

So it ships with a permanent playfield protector installed?

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#13271 3 years ago

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kermit24

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Anyone in the area want to head over there and take some photos or video? The games are setup already, right?

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#13272 3 years ago

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kermit24

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Quoted from chuckwurt:
It’s 6 San Antonio time.

Do we all need to sign NDAs to access the Twitch stream?

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#13275 3 years ago

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kermit24

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Quoted from PinballManiac40:
I call BS on a NDA.

Joke (resized).jpeg

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#13407 3 years ago

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kermit24

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I can’t make much out of what I saw. Need more info.

One thing is for sure. That stream had the worst audio I’ve heard in years.

Did they explain the basic objectives while playing?

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#13539 3 years ago

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kermit24

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Watching casual players play a game they have never played before is almost always painful. I’m not so sure there isn’t a lot more there. No way to tell for me.

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#13649 3 years ago

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kermit24

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What about $5500 for the game including lifetime code updates?

This model punishes early buyers. I pay $5000 for a game that may not be finished and need to pay $500 per year to ensure it has all the latest code.

Also, maybe this old website pricing was one of the things the “VIPs” gave feedback on and they have changed the pricing? Too early to take some beta website as fact.

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#13652 3 years ago

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kermit24

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Quoted from Wolfmarsh:
Why would someone like Stern rely on a third party to do something as simple as online scores? I would definitely do this in house. Especially because they are already going to set up infrastructure for update distribution. Score tracker would be a couple azure functions and call it a day.
I think more people than Ben should be sour on JPop. JPop doesn't belong in pinball anymore. The chain of events he caused ruined some big things for people. He is also a terrible worker and designer.

Couple of Azure calls and call it a day? Ha. We will see what Stern cooks up for online features but if that is their approach it will be hot garbage.

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#13661 3 years ago

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kermit24

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Quoted from Wolfmarsh:
I'm obviously simplifying, but the API that someone mentioned is simply some endpoints. Stern already has a website with auth that they can surface the data in. So yeah, it's not -that- hard.
Azure infrastructure/devops is a large part of my career, and I'm really good at it, so I might know a little about it.
The point of my post was that Stern wouldn't go to a third party for this, they'd just do it in house. Regardless of how hard or easy it is.

Maybe you should talk to Stern about some contract work. I don’t think they have the ability to pull off great networking and cloud features in house. They haven’t even updated the menu UI to LCD after all these years.

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#13689 3 years ago

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kermit24

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Quoted from benheck:
I still think Bible Adventures would be awesome.
My secular version I mean. DR will blow it.

No. Both would suck.

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#13693 3 years ago

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kermit24

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Deeproot needs some of the Pinside base to survive. They need good PR / Marketing to sell us on the benefits of their product. Not looking good so far.

They are haphazard at best and a total shitshow at worst.

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#13700 3 years ago

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kermit24

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Quoted from jawjaw:
Pinside is not the entire pinball world. DR doesn't have to bow down before people here and answer every hyperventilating pinhead. Why not just let them announce their product and services when they are ready? No one seems to know much about the game or this paid service. Maybe the game is fun and the subscription does add some value. Maybe the whole thing sucks. Wonderful thing is we get to decide what we buy.

Pinside isn’t the entire pinball world, but it is a rather larger chunk of the collector market. Probably well north of 30%. They have been trying to announce their product for the last two years and have been falling on their face almost every time.

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#13703 3 years ago

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kermit24

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Quoted from yancy:
No need, it's simple, easy & just plain works. Operators don't want to learn a new system. Why should Stern spend money on things that add zero value to the player?

I’d argue with the “zero value”. Makes it easier to diagnose issues. Much faster adjustments.

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#13714 3 years ago

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kermit24

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Quoted from chuckwurt:
I’m thinking more like 10%

Usually recent games with known production quantities show about 30% of that number in pinside collections. It does vary a bit depending on the game of course. Not scientific but a good indicator.

I’m talking LE / Premium / Boutique type models, not pros.

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#13792 3 years ago

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kermit24

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This is so ass backwards. Give us a product so incredible that makes us want to subscribe.

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#13837 3 years ago

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kermit24

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Quoted from screaminr:
If deep root or anyone else could show pictures of their Production line , I think it would help put alot people at ease .

Andrew Heighway posted many photos and videos of the "production" line.

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#13982 3 years ago

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kermit24

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Orders open in 10 minutes! Where is the countdown timer?

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#13985 3 years ago

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kermit24

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Quoted from DS_Nadine:
Can‘t. Still sobbing because Scarlett reminded me I sold all my NIB machines.
(I want Star Trek and JM back.)

You are good. International orders don't ship until Phase 4. Enough time for the extra tariff to end.

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#13988 3 years ago

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kermit24

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So much for going live at 10AM CT

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#14075 3 years ago

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kermit24

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RAZA is a limited run game. I don’t think anyone who goes in on it will be that upside down as long as the game ships.

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#14086 3 years ago

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kermit24

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Quoted from woodworker:
Arcade version is not limited.
Xtra Version limited to "only" 300 games.
LOL.

On the website it appears that they won’t be taking any orders after the end of December.

3B755D4B-7282-41A2-9BC7-7B4DF3A8962B (resized).jpeg

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#14126 3 years ago

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Quoted from Lounge:
It seems pretty clear when asking for full payment up front, that the consumer will be funding production.

They are asking for 10%.

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#14128 3 years ago

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Quoted from spinal:
My biggest issue is that DR continues to display such arrogance coming out of the gate acting like they are the market leader.

I haven't seen much of that lately. Its been a lot of eating crow over the last couple months.

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#14147 3 years ago

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kermit24

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RAZA feels like a test run for the platform. 21 day order period. Done manufacturing within 4 months. I don’t think they ever expected it to sell in the thousands.

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#14150 3 years ago

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Quoted from goingincirclez:
More I think about this... holy shit BTTF seems like the driving force of this design, right? I mean I don't personally give a crap about BTTF but I can certainly appreciate and respect something executed with this kind of attention: Stainless speaker panel and trim; futuristic interface; heck, even the lift-glass becomes a "Delorean door" analogue. Add a Flux Capacitor topper, rope lights under glass, and you would have "theme integration" like nobody's ever seen!
So much so that you'd almost have to hope/assume RAZA was the necessary goodwill obligation lead and platform test, with BTTF the shocker waiting in the wings BUT... plenty of reasons not hold one's breath and instead file under "what could (should) have been".

Wasn't it already established that the "80's Movie License" on the roadmap was Goonies?

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#14154 3 years ago

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Quoted from Makakka:
Wtf do they want to sell in bigger Nrs? .

Goonies. Twisted Metal. (guessing that is the "combative driving license")

They also have sequels to Diner (Food Truck), Whitewater (Yukon Yeti), and Medieval Madness (Merlin's Arcade).

https://deeprootpinball.com/about/upcoming-games

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#14156 3 years ago

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Quoted from flynnibus:
Then why spend years and huge amounts of money to buy the design and be the centerpiece of their big launch?
No, they are just trying to quietly move past this mistake. It’s why RM started downplaying it this summer, after having years to switch to other titles... but didn’t.
Remember shipping more pins in 2019 then anyone? That’s not the claim of someone only expecting a few hundred orders.

I agree. It’s become a test run now after the fact however.

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#14160 3 years ago

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Quoted from gstellenberg:
According to FB, Robert and I are exactly the same age. Same birth day, same year. That's... weird.
- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

Gerry,

Is deeproot using the PROC platform?

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#14164 3 years ago

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Quoted from gstellenberg:
I think the narrative would be different if they were. We've had the feature-rich hardware platform and toolchain implemented for years, and it's continually improving. Definitely would be a mutually beneficial arrangement.

I figured. Certainly would have sped up their time to market if they had been using it.

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#14289 3 years ago

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kermit24

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Quoted from russdx:
I wanna see the guts of this thing, did they really do away with all wires?? Or will it just look like every other pin (hundreds of wires lol)

Watch the video. Looked like lots of wires.

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#14314 3 years ago

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kermit24

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Quoted from Wolfmarsh:
And have deeproot/jpop steal my work and call it theirs? Pass.

They describe the designer getting 10-20% of the sale price per game. Let’s say the game sells for $6K. Getting $600-$1200 per game sold isn’t bad at all. Especially if they are able to sell it in any meaningful volume. How is that stealing? Most people don’t have any manufacturing ability.

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#14320 3 years ago

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Quoted from Wolfmarsh:
What TreyBo said. Not only does Jpop have a proven history of that, but look at deeproot all doing it with things like the pinpod. That's just a rebranded product they called their innovation.
You might also not be considering the very large gap between a homebrew machine and a production machine. Is the gap closable? Sure. For 25 games though, not a freaking chance.

Not debating that part. I don’t even understand how 25 games is visible for anyone.

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#14321 3 years ago

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Quoted from spinal:
A thought...
DR is literally RE-inventing every single element of the pinball machine as we know it, hardware and software...
... and at the same time creating for the first time in history, everything that the human mind could think of to add to the pinball experience, subscription licensing, homebrew manufacturing service, code-it-yourself pinball, completely alternate code sets for each game, up to and including new shipping boxes.
And RM says there is much more they are not mentioning.
They are working on all this at the same time.
And on multiple titles at the same time. Each designer is working on multiple titles.
And they continue to remain confident that all this is going to come together and on schedule now in 2021.
—
Now stop for a second and think.
How many times in your life have you seen anyone or an organization succeed by taking this approach to success?
iPhone maybe comes to mind? Even Steve jobs failed at Next computer and not many would doubt he was a genius.
So getting to my point, I would love to see RM succeed and every fairy princess pinball wish come true simultaneously. It would be awesome and great for the industry.
But if you sense some of us older blokes not drinking the cool-aid, it’s because we know that the doing-everything-all-at-once approach simply does not work (99% of the time).
And even with deep-pocketed investors as they will eventually start to lose faith as the years drag on.
Now he might be successful but man my spidey sense is going off that something is very wrong here. Now let me be clear, by wrong I don’t mean intentional misleading or conspiracy as I think they think they actually think they can pull this off. I mean megalomania and naiveté.
Or I’m wrong, RM is a genius and DR will redifine every element of pinball and on schedule from now on. That’s possible too. And if that’s the case I’ll be happy to admit that my spidey sense was wrong.

If you read back through the thread you summed up what a lot of us have been saying. This is the definition of uncontrolled scope creep. They were not focused on making a great game and getting it out the door. They wanted to redefine everything. Also I wouldn’t be surprised if they are having a hard time finding suppliers because Stern and JJP existing supply chain would probably give Robert a hard cold shoulder.

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#14324 3 years ago

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If you read the Homebrew section closely, it mentions using existing tools and existing mechs, etc. I see this as a deeproot pinball lego set of sorts where the designer operates within a predefined box of tools. So it seems that any “design” would be converted into something compatible with the stuff they already have.

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#14337 3 years ago

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Quoted from luvthatapex2:
No way. It will never happen. If you want to design a homebrew for DR, you'll have to use their framework.

Thats what I thought I said. lol.

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#14338 3 years ago

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Quoted from flynnibus:
Which still takes an insane amount of time and resources. It is everything past “i drew out the geometry”.
It’s why everyone knows this is just crap grabbed out of the sky.
A real manufacturer would know the factory line should be their real constraint on making money. It is scheduled, and feeding it is an intensive game of scheduling and prep. Keeping it running at full speed is the goal.
If you have all these games baking in the oven... and just need to be completed... why would you derail your projects by introducing side efforts that compete with your already overcommitted resources?
It says one or more of the following:
1- they lack faith in their own projects
2- their own projects are vaporware
3- they have absolutely no one in manufacturing management
4- robert has not learned his lessons from his past mistakes about boasting before actually doing anything
If the factory line isn’t pumping out product you have nothing to sell and you make no revenue. It is literally the heart pump of your company. You don’t derail it by starving it or distracting it with product that you don’t make money on. Especially a business that is woefully behind!
Even with “octo” manufacturing you are still competing with space and manpower with the main products.

All 100% correct. Homebrew is just another example of scope creep.

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#14344 3 years ago

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Quoted from flynnibus:
I wonder how many people are owed more than one game by DR in the goodwill settlement...

I don’t think it’s many. In the Jeff T interview Robert said they need to make a couple more people whole. Not sure what that means. I thought some had already taken cash.

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#14348 3 years ago

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Quoted from Lounge:
Their choice of themes is absolutely mind boggling - Food Truck, Old Testament....??
As you imply, Goonies is probably the only theme that could save them. Should have been their first release.

At least get a license from PPS and call it Diner 2 instead of Food Truck. I don’t think that will save it however. Fire and Brimstone is a TERRIBLE idea. Sorry benheck

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#14350 3 years ago

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Quoted from flynnibus:
It's amazing... I never would have thought Barry in his garage could outpace another 'real company'... but It would be a great bet to compare DP's weekly output in March to DRs

Isn’t DP now just Barry and a couple helpers making a game a day?

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#14491 3 years ago

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Quoted from BallPin:
So what's the over under that Deeproot folds before Feburary 2021?

Too early. A real bet would be by the end of 2021.

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#14498 3 years ago

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I’m not defending deeproot at all, but I will say the communication over the last few weeks is 1000% percent better than before. Hopefully they can get games out the door and make more than one title. The interviews help us see the reality. It’s not smooth sailing and it seems they realize the stupid mistakes they have made. Hopefully they have enough capital left to pull this off. That’s the elephant in the room.

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#14529 3 years ago

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OP
Quoted from pin2d:
Just to chime in on this, the statement was not meant to reveal some huge secret now that we're out from under NDA, just a brief joint statement we all agreed on about the status of manufacturing on the day we were there since we had all been asked about that so much, and also so people knew we were no longer under NDA.
From there, since all of us have different platforms, we could all cover anything else deeproot related however we want and as much as we want. Cary Hardy put out a video about it last week, Chris Chandler talked on a podcast about it this morning, etc.

I mean, you gotta give credit where it is due, some of the satire and memes (like that one) have been hilarious

Thanks Jeff. I did find it strange that you guys felt the need for this "joint statement" after the NDA was over.

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#14578 3 years ago

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Quoted from BallPin:
This will be my final piece on Deeproot. Deeproot underestimates pinball. They haven't shown any manufacturing, which is scary because most people will tell you how DIFFICULT it is. They couldn't even do a reveal properly on a machine that has been in the works for over 8 years, yet, somehow they are going to figure out manufacturing in a month or so. They touted some new playfield tech that could take a hammer, and people that saw it said the playfield was horrible, almost unplayable. BUT, here is the BIGGEST issue people are overseeing. Deeproot already created a manufacturing nightmare by making machine a la carte. The logistics is bottlenecking the manufacturing process before it even begins. Giving all these options on machines is such a bad idea, which you can add to the pile of bad ideas that this company has come up with. I want people to get their machines, and I actually like the look of RAZA and would love to play it on location one day, I also like that the Deeproot team are proud and have the creative juices flowing, but reality sinks in when it comes to manufacturing, and they already created a bunch of hurdles on an already difficult task. I hope they prove me wrong and they figure something out and are efficient in their process. Good luck to those that put a payment down, may you have beautiful machines and may they be awesome. I applaud Deeproot for coming out with great looking machines at the price point they came up with. Lets see them follow through and deliver. However, if the machine does land in peoples hands, I'm still a skeptic of the nickel and diming of customers for owning the machine, and the quality.

Sku management is a real problem here. Why doesn’t Stern offer factory customizable pinball machines? Because it’s not scalable. Sell accessories to the end user after the fact to let them do what they want. All these endless options are not a good idea to achieve scale. Look at Spooky, they have option sheets literally taped to each game that the line needs to follow closely. If they didn’t have that they would be pumping games out quicker. They charge like $10 for target decals. As an add on. Just dumb.

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#14624 3 years ago

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Quoted from pinballwil:
When Raza is deliverd next year (and sales are closed) sundenly everybody wants one just like JJP POTC.
So if you order one and let it stay NIB you can make some profit next year.

Yes, at this rate I don’t see them exceeding 200 total orders before the end of the year.

But do they explicitly say that this is the only time this game will be available to order? Apart from the Xtra(tm) being limited to 300, I don’t see any reason why they wouldn’t rerun arcade edition if there is demand. I know they say they won’t come back to it because of all the other titles but I didn’t see any assurances that this is the only time it can be ordered.

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#14679 3 years ago

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Quoted from Makakka:
Those who want to know before buying wont get a chance at least not directly from deeproot. Bc of that my distro wisely ordered some more xtras and arcades.

That’s interesting. Wonder how many games distros are purchasing.

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#14682 3 years ago

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Quoted from cjchand:
For RAZA, it’s a referral model. All sales are direct and DR pays the distro something like a “finder’s fee”.
Post-RAZA, it changes to a normal distribution model, with a commitment to move a certain number of units per year.

I wonder how the European distro mentioned above is buying them.

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#14684 3 years ago

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Quoted from cjchand:
Hrm, good question. I’m not sure about that.
Regardless, anyone outside North America will be waiting a while as DR is in a backlog to get CE certification. Robert mentioned this on a recent interview.

True. That’s probably ok with them with the 25% extra tax at the moment.

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#14687 3 years ago

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Quoted from CrazyLevi:
Hey I got a question:
If the pinbar (TM) is attached to the playfield apron, as it seems to be, isn’t that gonna cause some annoying problems when doing diagnostics?
I mean, on my current DMD games the screen is blocked when I raise the playfield, but I can still crane my neck and use the buttons inside the coin door to go through the menus.
With the pinbar raised high into the sky facing the wall, using the service menu buttons in any capacity is gonna be pretty much impossible. Unless you have a fellow tech sitting on your shoulders, Master Blaster style.
INNOVATION!!!
[quoted image]

Usually I’ll put it into test before I raise the playfield anyway. Not sure this is a huge issue.

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#14691 3 years ago

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Quoted from JimWilks:
Yes, I agree with putting it in Test Mode before raising the playfield. Now, how do I read it with the playfield raised, say for switch test? Alternatively for a solenoid test, how do I activate the coil of interest?

How do you read the screen of any other pinball machine when the playfield is raised? There is still a backbox LCD. Activate a coil during test? Flipper button perhaps? You still can see the screen in the backbox. Not making excuses but surely this scenario has been thought of in the design.

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#14695 3 years ago

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Quoted from stevevt:
Are we sure that diagnostic info will be on the backbox LCD and not just the PinBar? That's the question.
EDIT: I guess the only menu controls are on the PinBar, so I really think this question is valid.

The backbox LCD shows some of the same stuff that the pinbar does. During the gameplay video, you can make skillshot selections with flippers also while looking at the backbox.

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#14698 3 years ago

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Quoted from Yelobird:
Not sure what your watching but the Pinball looks attached to me and perfectly positioned for service playfield Up or down. Or do you mean bottom of playfield?
[quoted image]

When you lift the playfield, the pinbar is attached to it.

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#14700 3 years ago

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Quoted from NoQuarters:
@ CrazyLevi - I am sure there will be a diagnostic pinbar mirror that you will attach to the head of the game. Then you can see the pinbar in the raised position. If your dyslexic it will be easy enough to make out what's happening. They are still working on how you would access the touch screen though. Still figuring out the innovation on that. It will all be good. No worries.

PinMirror (tm)

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#14702 3 years ago

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kermit24

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What about the smartphone app? It says it allows you to administer the machine. I bet it can connect directly to the machine over WiFi.

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#14710 3 years ago

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Quoted from JimWilks:
Why is it so hard to get answers to simple questions like this? Is DR just not interested in letting potential buyers know how things work?

Did you ask them? They have a phone number and email.

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#14767 3 years ago

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kermit24

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First, deeproot should scrap “The Who” as it will be absolutely dreadful. No one gives two fucks for that band.

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#14844 3 years ago

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kermit24

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What will ship first? Italien or RAZA?

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#14980 3 years ago

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So they are at 211 with 2 days to go. Will they get over 300? And what is the breakdown Xtra vs Arcade?

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#15141 3 years ago

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kermit24

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Look at the employees left. It’s a design studio, not a manufacturing company. They would be better off using a local contract manufacturer at this point.

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#15179 3 years ago

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kermit24

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Quoted from hank527:
So I posted in the preorder thread and got a ban on that thread. However, it is okay for someone over there to call me a jerk off. Unreal. I asked about the five days of Deeproot. I will acknowledge that i am not thrilled with the lies and downright deception of Deeproot.
I’ve been following that thread. However, this censorship is not okay in regards to being called a jerk off by TaTa. Sorry, I’m just not okay with it.

You’ve been on Pinside for 9 years. You should know that owners threads are protected places. Plenty of other places to shit on deeproot.

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#15300 3 years ago

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Quoted from benheck:
Blasphemy! How dare you besmirch thy holy name of FOOD TRUCK! Our redeemer, who art in Texas. Hallowed be thy food. Thy orders come. Thy food be done. On streets as it is in restaurants. Amen.
I applaud their effort but all of their pitched titles sound like iPhone games. I mean Food Truck would be great, like Tapper meets Pressure Cooking meets Cooking Mama. Not sure how it fits a pin though....

Food Truck is Diner 2. Simple.

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#15315 3 years ago

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Quoted from CrazyLevi:
If Diner came out now it would be a complete flop and put AP (I can only assume) out of business.
These people have zero idea what they are doing, zero idea what buyers want in 2020, and apparently zero plan to build and deliver these games nobody wants.
Everybody says they want "90s pinball!" but they don't. That's one of the main problems here.

I agree Diner as a theme in 2020 is a stupid idea. In fact, almost all unlicensed themes are terrible ideas these days if you really want sales volume. Not sure it would put "AP" out of business

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#15361 3 years ago

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Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:
Someone explain to me how Food Truck in any way a better theme than Oktoberfest? Very similar in concept as far as I’m concerned. In fact, ‘Fest has more variation opportunities IMO (beer, chicks, music, games...monkeys) in a good way.
‘Fest is a pretty solid pinball. And it’s loaded. And it sold lousy. Is Jpop’s art design really going to make Food Truck a hit? Or is it all that “other” DR innovation?

If you are just talking about theme alone, both are terrible. Even if the gameplay itself is amazing, it will be severely limited because of the theme. You need both theme and great gameplay to achieve meaningful volumes.

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#15367 3 years ago

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Quoted from Mr68:
Take a step back for a moment and imagine that Cactus Canyon was never built or ever existed. Strip away everything you know about CC.
If Deeproot or ANY manufacture today announced an unknown "Cactus Canyon" as its next title, people would be treating it the same way as Food Truck. - WTF is a Cactus Canyon? LOL!
Times have changed and the 90's pinball market sailed away a long time ago.

I actually believe making CCr would be a mistake for CGC. It is certainly rare, but not am amazing game like MM or AFM.

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#15378 3 years ago

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kermit24

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Pinside is a small fraction of the pinball buying public. If DR released an awesome licensed theme with a fun shooting layout it would sell. Saying that they should not release a licensed title now because of this stupid thread is off base.

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#15562 3 years ago

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Quoted from frolic:
The game wasn't promoted much outside of "hardcore pinhead" circles, with a very limited sales window, so I'd say the Pinside numbers are closer to reality than a normal pinball release. 1/2 of all sales? Maybe.

Didn't the folks in the order thread report the order numbers? I think they were over 200 there?

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#15621 3 years ago

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Quoted from TreyBo69:
PARTS
With most vendors going dark for the last two weeks of December and first week of January, we have orders in for about 70% of the BOM.

For me this is the huge one. "Orders in" doesn't mean the parts are on hand. What about the other 30% of the BOM required to make these machines? What is the lead time for those parts? Sounds like he might not really know.

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#16717 3 years ago

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So I’ve been away from this thread for about 60 days. What’s the latest? Is the line up?

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#16737 3 years ago

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Quoted from pookycade:
I’ll do you one better. If any of us had put our money into ANYTHING than this hobby we would have all been financially better off. The $100K I have put into my arcade has thus far over 3 years earned me $27000 in losses after COVID. Don’t think my wife doesn’t remind me of that continually.

You could have bought a $100k boat or RV and be worse off.