Alice in Wonderland
Zidware Pinball USA, 2013
Celts
Haggis, 2021
Magic Girl
Zidware Pinball USA, 2017
Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland
Zidware Pinball USA, 2012
Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland (Arcade Edition)
Deeproot, 2020
Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland (Xtra Edition)
Deeproot, 2020You're currently viewing posts by Pinsider jvspin.
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The problem I see with tearing a company down prematurely is it can create a self fulfilling prophecy. The people at risk are the employees and the investors.
Until they start asking for pre-order money, I don't see their angle in ripping off the pinball community.
Quoted from Astropin:What sucks is one bad apple might destroy the whole thing. Looks like there are some good people involved (hired) with deeproot. It's unfortunate that many (including myself) will not buy anything from them as long as JPOP is on the payroll. (period). But that's up to them...they have a choice.
Consider that if they're on the up-and-up and are successful, they're offering some form of restitution to all the buyers who had money deposited with JPOP and aren't part of the lawsuit.
Maybe Jpop's involved because they wanted his IP and patents for their machines, can't think of any other reason.
I'm hoping they succeed for the sake of myself and all the others who were and are presently involved.
As someone else mentioned, as long as they're paying their employees and not asking for money, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and get past JPOP's involvement.
Quoted from flynnibus:If you expect a Ferrari and get delivered a yugo.... the fact you got a yugo won’t change your disappointment.
Yes, but what if you expected nothing and someone gave you a Yugo?
Quoted from flynnibus:Do you really think all the JPOP people are going to be happy regardless of what they get?
Let's say happier if they get anything out of this.
Honestly, I'm still not expecting anything.
I came to terms with the loss long ago. I wouldn't have pursued a law suit anyway so I have nothing more to lose.
Speaking for myself, I will consider anything I get from DR a pleasant surprise, as they weren't responsible for my loss.
Quoted from JodyG:They never said they are giving free games, did they?
They are offering a game, games or cash to past JPOP customers, depending on the amount given to JPOP.
If anyone is interested in the exact terms Deep Root is offering to past JPOP customers, the information is public. See link below.
Quoted from homebrood:Correction, he played a marginal role on the design team on several top 20 machines and took credit for all the work most of which wasn't even his!
Hard to know what the truth is but judging by his actions on Magic Girl and RAZA, I believe the above.
Quoted from Cheeks:Please don't make me argue this point...it hurts my soul to take jpop's side in any discussion.
LOL
I feel your pain. Sorry for making you go there. 
Quoted from knockerlover:Everyone but jpop got applause after they introduced themselves and shared their story.. that’s gotta hurt..
Has anyone taken a picture of his back yet?
Quoted from JodyG:As for the fiberglass laminated plywood, the one tricky thing would be leveling the inserts.
Perhaps they could laminate a hardtop type playfield to a cnc routed piece of plywood. Plastic inserts woudn't be needed if the hardtop could support the ball over the insert hole. Would greatly simplify playfield production.
Quoted from deeproot:BTW, It is common knowledge by anyone who has inquired that BTTF is not available to be licensed.
Quoted from DS_Nadine:Let's just imagine you'd have cutouts where the switches would be (like the tracks in Anki) and one infrared illumination inside the cab. Programming knows where the "switches" are located. (Could do this with the given inserts also.) Camera tracks those.
Light falls trough = switch open
Light is blocked (because Ball rolls over) = switch is closed
Sounds like a great idea! Would still need to power the individual IR transmitters but they would just be on 100% or better, pulsed to conserve power. No more (or greatly reduced) wiring the playfield into a switch matrix.
I requested a cash settlement and received my payment today as well. The deal was choose a game or half the amount deposited with JPOP if they had games available by the deadline. If they didn't have games available it would be the full amount deposited.
True to their word, I received my entire deposit back less a small charge for wire transfer. 
I hope they produce great games so I can give them their money back.
Quoted from PinballManiac40:2 RAZA prototypes are coming to the Houston Arcade and Pinball Expo.
I hope what they bring is ready to impress. Otherwise the negativity is going to be tough to bear.
Quoted from Kiwipinhead:If I was DR that's what I would do, bring a pinball cab ,throw a bunch of Christamas lights in it and watch Pinside have a melt down
That would be hilarious!
Quoted from CrazyLevi:Very reminiscent. It's basically a miniature roto target.
Pretty cool, but not sure how it's going to suit a modern game. The biggest problem with rotos have always been that they aren't reliably aligned, and that they are freaking huge taking up a ton of above/below playfield real estate. This small version probably takes care of both of those issues.
I'm thinking it spins continuously with contact being made when a duck hits the back plate. If so, seems like a simple and fun mech as long as the motor holds up.
Not sure if launching the ball off the plastic from the shooter lane is a good idea. Going to need some playfield protection for sure.
Quoted from javagrind888:A short run R&M style would sell out quick.
Would love to see Spooky take on that theme!
Quoted from pookycade:Because the number one way you can guarantee failure is to sell nothing and ship nothing.
Maybe for some things but not for a pinball machine since they're not easilly returnable or serviced.
Better to wait and get it right.
If it's not good it won't sell well anyway. Look at Thunderbirds.
Quoted from gecko157:If deeproot isn’t proof Karama exists I don’t know what is.
It's not so clear to me.
Good karma
1) Deeproot did fully reimburse any qualified JPOP buyer that signed the goodwill agreement and requested a refund.
2) They haven't taken any pre-order money, unlike Heighway, SkitB and Dutch Pinball.
3) They paid salaries to a lot of people.
Bad karma
1) Lots of big talk and boasting.
2) Missed all stated timelines.
So, what should their overall karma be?
Quoted from CrazyLevi:So you guys finally get the hammer-proof playfield clearcoat you always wanted, but it has the texture of a hormonal 12-year old's face.
Is that what you were looking for? Pretty hard to find any playfield defects when it comes pre-cratered.
Instead of 'orange peel' like they said in the TWIP article, say the playfield has a 'hammer finish' and list it as a feature.
Quoted from NoQuarters:Pretty much everything they did is stupid.
I like that the game can be serviced without removing the glass. It looks like the back of the playfield will slide forward allowing it to be placed vertically and rest on the glass frame.
I also like that having the diagnostics on the apron LCD will allow you to see them when the playfield is up, unlike other games.
Quoted from NoQuarters:@ jvspin - Having the glass encased in a frame with gas filled shocks is a mistake. When the glass breaks or the shocks fail or start to leak and the glass does not stay up you have a problem. There is nothing hard or difficult removing or replacing glass in a conventional manner. Cost of the glass system and lift will add a bunch of cost and a point of failure to the game. Diagnostics on the screen ? Take a look at an AP game. The apron pinbar is goofy. It would be more useful to make that a lid for a cooler to put your drinks or ice cream in. That's what it looks like. Too bulky and odd. Touch screen's are for phones.
Seems like glass most often breaks due to removal from the game and placement on some hard surface. I know it always makes me a little nervous removing the glass and finding a safe place to set it down. The one thing I like about the Heighway system is the glass feels safe in it's cartridge and it doesn't require extra space to remove, downside is it's heavy.
Can't tell from the photos but hopefully there is something that locks the glass in it's 'up' position so the gas shocks just assist. If not, gas shocks fail slowly and are easy to replace, so probably not a big deal.
How does AP get around the playfield blocking the LCD screen when it's in it's vertical position? I can't find any youtube videos of AP's service menu.
Some of my favorite games are unlicensed themes but they're certainly more risky.
Licensed = instant sales as soon as it's revealed. People will buy based on the theme, even if it's not a very good game.
Unlicensed = buyers will wait to play and see if they like it before buying. Game must be good to sell in volume.
Quoted from Bublehead:Hey, let’s all just celebrate the fact that none of us have lost any money (yet) to dr, except for the poor Zidware folks who signed on in hopes of being made whole.
I don't think the Zidware folks can lose anything to DR. Their losses fall solely on Zidware's doorstep, they only serve to gain if DR keeps it's promises.
Quoted from benheck:It's possible DR is just slapping this together enough to fulfill their Goodwill Agreement, like AP did with Magic Girl.
I disagree. If RAZA looked like Pabst Blue Ribbon or Jetsons, I would say that's the case.
To me, it looks like a full featured game with an attempt at innovations to the cabinet and user interface. Price will be telling but in terms of BOM it seems comparable to what other manufacturers are putting out at their higher level.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:I still don’t get how the flashiest, rowdiest, most money throwing aroundest innovative and paradigm-shifting upstart in pinball history keeps doing such low-rent reveals.
This stream was the stream equivalent of
Four seasons landscaping.
This is the third amateur hour “reveal” of this prototype and each is more depressing than the last.
When the production games are revealed, what’s the setting gonna be? A storage facility and a carnival barker? The sidewalk in front of a for-lease former Radio Shack?
Ouch, that's kind of harsh.
I appreciate the crew from Fliptronic taking the time to set up the stream at such short notice. Sure beats a couple of minutes of shaky cell phone footage.
Look how long it's taken JJP to do a proper reveal with GNR. Reveals from the other manufacturers are hit or miss too.
Remember when WOZ was first getting made? Some of those 'reveals' were painful and nowhere near the quality of this RAZA stream, but I was always happy to see proof of life and progress.
Quoted from TreyBo69:But movie theaters started experimenting with monthly fees and unlimited movies to good effect.
I agree, and belong to the Cinemark club because I think it's a good value that saves me money.
Can DR find ways to bring enough value to their service for people to pay up? I'd say pinball owners, as a whole, are pretty free with their money so the bar might not be very high.
Quoted from Snailman:Huh? Dorothy and her dog would beg to differ
If memory serves, Jack was working for Elaut at the time and they already had the WOZ license for the arcade machine they made. That probably had something to do with extending the license to the pinball machine.
Quoted from fastpinball:There were existing gaming relationships with that licensor.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Beat me to it.
Quoted from Mr68:Forget Food Truck for a moment. What is the logic behind announcing game #2 on the second day of launching game #1?
If they are announcing game #2, then getting game #1 out the door and into peoples hands is just a formality.
Quoted from wrb1977:What I find fascinating (pathetic) are that people such as flynnibus who spent countless hours writing his 323 posts in a thread about a company he has no interest in supporting. That particular piece of work downvotes almost every post of mine...he’d even downvote a post where I offered to buy him a RAZA as a thank you for all his downvotes.
Hmmm... far from pathetic, I usually find posts from flynnibus to be well reasoned, whether or not I agree with them. He doesn't set off my troll alert like some others.
Your post makes it seem like flynnibus is downvoting most of your posts, but since that's not the case, it's not clear who you're referring to.
Quoted from fastpinball:My back and arms want one of these badly!
Aaron
FAST Pinball
I do as shown in the video then lift the back end and place it on the back of a folding chair. Time to buy some wood and a jack.
Quoted from flynnibus:Nah... my money is on a business vision from RM - with JPOP just being a component that was wildly overvalued.
Is it possible RM wanted John to give his new business some legitimacy? From outside the pinball world, I suspect John looks like an innovative designer who made some well loved Williams games.
Quoted from RobT:I've seen posts in that thread telling others to not even visit this thread.
It actually seems like there is a lot of this going on over there:
[quoted image]
Brings back memories...
RobT (resized).PNGQuoted from toyotaboy:i dont think RM is trying to scam anyone, but i do think his business plan is spiraling based on broken promises.
I have no idea what their business model looks like or what their expected profit margins are but I do wonder how many machines they need to sell before they are in the black.
Quoted from iceman44:Any of you keyboard warriors want to lay down a bet on whether or not DR actually makes RAZA before they go bankrupt?
Now since this is the “reality thread “ does anyone want to step up and make some $$?
It’s easy money right? Lol
I doubt anyone has the balls but hey, I’m willing and waiting. I like to gamble
Seems like a lose-lose proposition, unless you enjoy making money off of DR's failure.
Quoted from iceman44:What? I’m getting my game. Along with others
I should have been clearer. I meant betting against DR is a lose-lose propostion...
Quoted from toyotaboy:Interesting that Charlie was printing cabinet art for JJP on woz (which was 2-3 years in the business), starts his own small pinball company and a year later starts pumping out games (and is currently beating them on number of titles).
List isn't 100% correct. IMO, Jetsons and Dominos barely qualify and AMH is missing. For JJP, Woz was left off the list. Doesn't affect the point he was making though.
Quoted from frolic:I'm curious if deeproot is actually going to honor their vaporware offer, or if they're going to pretend it never happened.
Quoted from frobozz:That was last June - do we know who the "winner" was?
Actually, that was in May, 2018. My how time flies!
Quoted from CrazyLevi:Fine you guys got me convinced. Unban yourself Ice!
Would be nice though if he'd stop not only diving headfirst into every scam in pinball, but stop doing it in such a way that he encourages others. I'm convinced he's at least partially responsible for all of the non-existent Aliens people "bought" from ASOA.
Had to look that up. Didn't know the American Society of Ophthalmic Administrators was selling Aliens...
Quoted from colonel_caverne:Am i wrong or Raza pin is now available?
Anyone else flash on Donny from the Big Lebowski just now?
donny.gifQuoted from benheck:WOZ was like the 3 Mile Island of serial RGB. A good idea tainted by bad execution.
Whoever did WOZ didn't RTFM. Their RGB modules had built in voltage regulators, which takes a higher voltage and knocks it down to 5v for operation.
Linear buck regulators have what's called "drop out voltage" which is the minimum input voltage above the output voltage before the regulator stops working. Rule of thumb is about 2v. (switching regulators can go much lower, thus more efficient)
WOZ supplied these boards with the same voltage they outputted (5v) which is why they didn't quite work. It's actually shocking they worked at all. And thus the fix was to supply them with a voltage above the drop out of 5V, hence the "7v fix".
The 7V fix did not take care of the problem 100%. According to Frank at JJP service, the LED driver chips they used were prone to failure and are no longer manufactured. I'm guessing that's what drove the parallel solution they developed for WOZ.
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:So carry on if you must, though please don't lose sight of the original purpose of this thread. Just remember to throw in the occasional new deeproot embarrassment from time to time and all should be well.
Oh yeah, Go Deeproot...
I'm sure their serial LED solution will be flawless! 
Quoted from toyotaboy:I could give 2 craps about Robert or deeproot as a company.
That's very generous of you.
Quoted from TreyBo69:>With current lead times on the certifications and parts, there will not be any significant updates in the next 6 weeks. Our goal is to update in mid May and at that time (if games are not imminently ready to start shipping) to offer some financial relief for the delays in the form of a return of store credit, discount of the RAZA purchase, or allow customers to rescind RAZA purchases for a refund with nominal interest.
Straight from the Notorious R.O.B.
Yes, but that is most likely an internal goal, not an external one...
Quoted from NashtyFunk:I'd have to check my credit card receipts, but pretty sure I paid in full for an extra edition.... Wishing it was just a small deposit but anyway, gonna hold the line.
I see in the other thread that you changed your mind and asked for a refund. That's probably wise as you can always buy one if they get made and you like it. Though maybe for a higher price.
I'm sure many people will be watching for when you get your refund.
Quoted from NashtyFunk:I didnt get more of an explanation than that. Basically the rep talked to Robert and the decision was you're either in or out. If I'm in they're going to discount my shipping because I paid in full and they've been holding those funds.
Thanks for reporting back. Was curious to see if DR would actually release funds but they found a way to make you happy without having to.
Quoted from NashtyFunk:I'm not real happy about it. I just don't have a choice if I still want my game. The shipping discount is nice but by that point I'll just be happy my game is shipping.
Perhaps 'keep you in' would have been a better choice of words.
It's good to see all those cars in the parking lot. Fingers crossed you get your game.
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:Thanks for the heads up. Great stuff!
https://soundcloud.com/kanedapinball/deep-thoughts-by-deeproot-part-1
Exciting it's only part 1
That's the best Kaneda episode i've heard...Cris talking = 0%
Quoted from Haymaker:I'm not willing to say its over until theres a little more concrete evidence than the mostly defunct DR page being deleted and RM's linked in being taken down, but damn this is a bad omen.
I won't say it's over until Ice's 'friend' says it's over.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:Quite simply, RM bought his credibility around here, and it was easy. We went from nobody knowing who this asshole was to people clamoring to send him money in a matter of a couple short months.
That's not how I remember it. As I recall, there was plenty of skeptism surrounding deeproot when it was announced, especially with the stuff RM was saying and with JPOP on board. The sentiment was more like as long as they aren't taking money from the pinball community we're willing to take a 'wait and see' approach.
It was a couple of years before they asked for money and I wouldn't consider the small number of people signing up as 'clamoring'. I'd guess there were far more naysayers than people willing to send money.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:I probably am remembering it wrong, as it's all been such a long strange trip. The fact is, there WERE a group of very loud, voiciferous supporters who were impressed by Robert's act, and it certainly helped it all gain traction. As more "pinball famous" names came aboard that group grew in number.
Again, I remember this differently. I don't recall any loud support for Robert's behavior. I remember him mostly being criticized for the nonsense he would say. It was more like we were hoping all the industry people involved and money being thrown into the project could get something done in spite of RM. He may have gained some credibility after his refund offer and follow through to Zidware buyers.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:And there were ALWAYS folks pointing out that just because he wasn't actively stealing money from pinball people, that didn't mean he wasn't stealing money from somebody. These comments turned out to be the most prescient of all, really.
Yes, and that was the concern that sort of tainted the 'as long as no one in the pinball community loses money, where's the harm?' sentiment.
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:Robert should have stuck with what he knows best and focused his investment strategy on coal mines in Africa.
I worked with a guy once who claimed to be an expert at many things, yet he couldn't do his job or any of the other positions the company tried to find for him.
I think myself and many people take others at their word unless proven otherwise. I'm guessing that tendency is what enables such people as it takes time to realize someone is a liar, delusional, etc...
However after deeproot and other examples of late, I think I'm beginning to recognize the signs.
Quoted from pinballrockstar:Anybody in the market for a signed JPOP magic girl proto drawing?
No?
I’ll make you a good deal!
No?
Okay…
[quoted image]
I'd probably burn off Jpop's signature but keep the artwork as a reminder and valuable life lesson.
Quoted from chuckwurt:His that I played last night nudged like a real machine. I was very impressed. Did a couple slide saves and tilted multiple times.
Any flipper lag?
Quoted from Mr68:He's a lost cause and I'm convinced he needs help.
I'm not so sure. This personality type seems to be the 'in' thing these days.
Quoted from greatwichjohn:Yes JPOP can still be managed, & will likely move on to more pinball work.
If serious, I'm a little concerned for you.
If trolling, you've been doing a fantastic job!
Quoted from NoQuarters:I don't know if he is trolling or serious .
Exactly! That's master level trolling.
Quoted from Stuieb84:What is a PIA?
Pain In the A$$.
Quoted from ZNET:Equally, it's impossible to scroll through a single Pinside page without encountering maddening grammar, punctuation and spelling errors. Typos and stream of consciousness posts are certainly understandable.
However, the most common unforgivable errors seem to be:
1) using "could of" and "would of" which are both nonsensical. The correct phrase is, of course, could HAVE and would HAVE;
2) incorrectly writing "etcetera" as "ect." The correct abbreviation is, of course, "etc." Further, one "etc." suffices. Multiples are redundant;
3) misuse of "your" when "you're" is meant, the latter of which means, of course, "you are." This is clearly the number 1 error;
4) misuse of "it's" to designate the possessive meaning when, of course, "it's" means "it is." To convey possession,
there is NO apostrophe in "its." (e.g. The deeproot company is a failed venture. Its assets have been depleted.)
Perhaps the most disheartening lesson is that these mistakes are repeated by the same folks even after a correction is noted by a fellow Pinsider. The educational collapse (in STEM as well) is evidently just as pervasive in Canada as in America. The western hemisphere is badly losing the global literacy race. It's embarrassing.
Someone posted this link in another thread...
Quoted from bobukcat:To be fair a simple molex connector for coils is pretty nice when you're rebuilding flippers, VUKs, etc. just so you don't have to leave the coil hanging from the wires. The PCB though definitely seems like over-kill.
Can't see the solder joints on the pc board lasting long too.
Quoted from Roostking:That was his plan, sell 10,000s of pins and pay back the fund...
Yep, I'm guessing "go big or go home" was RM's motto.
My first preorder buying experience was positive with WOZ but I learned my lesson after Predator and Raza. Patience...patience...and more patience.
No more buying on a prayer. Will now wait until a game is finished to a degree I'm satisfied with.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:I am releasing RAZA.
Please wire transfer me $12,000 US.
Thanks!
No way! I'm not sending any money without a release date.
Quoted from benheck:What was the motivation for Robert giving out these insanely good contracts?
Seems odd considering how much he loved threatening people, NDAa, suing ex-employees etc.
Makes sense to me, promise the moon to hook them. Threaten to sue to keep them.
Quoted from Haymaker:You thought you had yourself a chance at a shiny rare game that you could show off and flaunt, it didn't matter the people who we knew were getting screwed even in the beginning as long as you got your item right?
I don't think it's fair to use imagined intent and assumed knowledge as justification to berate someone.
(If you are a mind reader, I apologize for this comment )
Edit: Noticed you ended your statement with a '?'. Is that called, "leading the witness"?
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:The less funny but more true answer is that he was granted many tens of thousands (or maybe more than one hundred thousand?) of dollars from the frozen accounts to hire lawyers.
Lawyers gotta make their money!
Quoted from brucipher:I would think selling 500 games in a day or two for AP is probably considered a home run...
Small number of games helps to sell them out quickly. I wonder if they would even pre-sell 500 if they announced no limit to games being made and no cut off time to purchase.
Quoted from greatwichjohn:There are likely numerous parties looking at the IP & other remaining assets that might come up at auction. The parties want to remain quiet, & see how things pan out.
That's great news! Where can I send money so I can get on the list early. I really want to support anyone who is trying to get these games made and don't want to miss out.
Quoted from Fulltilt:I didn't mean anything, just kidding with you.
It seems like monitoring bankruptcy procedure and filings is about all the good that's going to come out of this thread at this point.
I had my old "paid" invoice so I filed as a creditor claim. I don't expect to have any compensation from it.
I'm curious, if I remember correctly you were a Zidware buyer that rolled your deposits over to Deeproot via their goodwill agreement. Did you use your Zidware paid invoice to file the claim or was there another Deeproot invoice?
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:New motion filed by Robert's lawyers in the SEC case, and for once I'm shocked: Rather than request yet another extension on time to respond to the complaint, this time they're actually pushing for the entire process to speed up!
[quoted image]
April Fools! They actually requested that the answer deadline be extended for a fifth time, this time until Valentine's Day. How romantic!
Uh...it's not April.
Quoted from iceman44:I was hoping to get a machine based on all of the parts, equipment and people they obviously had sitting there. FACT
The SEC stepped before that could happen.
Why didn’t you or anyone else let inform us about the SEC?
Dang! Sounds like you're implying if not for the SEC Deeproot would have succeeded. 
Quoted from pinballlife:That was me buying my stuff back for about $0.40 on the dollar.
Nice to hear someone who gives a lot back to the hobby got something out of this fiasco.
Quoted from DanQverymuch:Frankly,
I see what you did there.
Quoted from ForceFlow:I don't think a prankster would've gone to the effort of encoding a message that most people wouldn't know how to read.
If the cost was low to resurrect the deeproot domain name I think it's a good prank to post nuggets and then watch all the activity on this thread.
Alternatively, who in their right mind would want to keep the deeproot name and stay connected to this fiasco if they were starting a new business?
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