(Topic ID: 203700)

deeproot Pinball thread

By pin2d

2 years ago

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  • Latest reply 11 hours ago by Rdoyle1978
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Topic index (key posts)

9 key posts have been marked in this topic

Post #111 Firsthand information from the Magic Girl programmer. Posted by applejuice (2 years ago)

Post #3026 RAZA promotional video Posted by vireland (7 months ago)

Post #5771 First RAZA gameplay video Posted by ZMeny (23 days ago)

Post #5874 RAZA video with more audible game sounds Posted by zaphX (23 days ago)

Post #5926 First RAZA video with successful ramp completion Posted by zaphX (22 days ago)

Post #5967 Another RAZA gameplay video Posted by flynnibus (22 days ago)

Post #6050 Closeup pictures of key playfield features Posted by Potatoloco (21 days ago)

Post #6133 Video of display animations Posted by LateCenturyMods (21 days ago)

Post #6329 Summary of Robert Mueller's interview Posted by jeffspinballpalace (19 days ago)

Topic indices are generated from key posts and maintained by Pinside Editors. For more information, or to become an editor yourself read this post!

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#922 1 year ago

There is no way they are going to fit the equipment, people and manufacturing capability to build nearly every part of a pinball machine as well as the machine itself in that building. You are going to need engineers, machinists, tool and die makers, electricians, woodworkers, assemblers etc. There is a reason most companies outsource the parts in their machines. It makes no sense whatsoever to invest in an injection molder to make only flipper bats and posts. Metalworking equipment to make pop bumper parts and ramps. Electronic equipment to make the boards, switches and sensors, etc. Now bring all of these skilled tradespeople and machinery together under one roof in a matter of less than a year, AND produce 3 functional, debugged machines ready to ship for for launch day? This sounds ridiculously optimistic. But, so long as he isn't taking peoples money up front and employees are paid... Giddyup!

#923 1 year ago

And I left out factoring in building the tooling to make the parts as well. Building tooling (like injection molds) in house could be a quarter million-plus dollar investment in machine shop equipment alone. Having tooling like molds made outside could have 10 to 20 week lead times easily in this economy... I deal with it every day.

#925 1 year ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

I think he's perfectly cognisant of the language he's using, so my point is that it's likely to be either major exaggeration or that it will prove ruinous. It's simply not possible to make everything yourself without incurring unneeded cost and problems. Especially in the kind of lean, low cost operation and product he's promising. Maybe in 10-15 years with huge advancements and lowering in cost of 3D printing. But not now.

Anyone who actually works with 3d printing on a commercial level knows full well that it still has major limitations on many levels when it comes to using it to manufacture an end product. I surely hope that isn't what DR is banking on.

#1002 1 year ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Don't be too intrigued. Every single one of them was out of work.

I don't get why all these manufacturers are always bragging about hiring these old dudes that made games 20 or 30 years ago. I want to see new, young design talent discovered. They are out there, and you probably can pay them less than these old reheated design ideas from the same 5 people.

2 weeks later
#1038 1 year ago
Quoted from Cheeks:

They are employing someone who did harm to me. JPOP screwed me out of my money for RAZA! Deeproot hired him and they are going to give me a free game for my lost money. You're damn right I'm going to support them.

What's a bigger olive branch than assuming ownership of JPOP's pissed off customers, and giving them a free game?
Other than Pisiders needing something to be pissed about, I just don't get the angst here. If they hired JPOP and said F U to previous owners by asking them to buy one of his new games, I would totally get it. But that's not what they're doing. They're building games without taking money from anyone (whether that's successful or not remains to be seen) and in the process they're giving restitution to the people John screwed over. What the hell is there in that to be upset about?

They never said they are giving free games, did they?

1 week later
#1099 1 year ago

After listening to the interview, I hope Deeproot does disrupt the market a bit. I am imagining some kind of internet connectivity to these games as being the one way they are going to do it. The other way is automated manufacturing. I think there are ways to cut some labor out of pinball manufacturing with some investment.

2 weeks later
#1237 1 year ago

My eyes are on the game, not the LCD.

#1282 1 year ago
Quoted from mcbPalisade:

How many times I've been in a group of engineers that were saying "It isn't supposed to do that!"

Our wannabe EE's famous saying is "That can't happen!", as it does it 10 times right in front of him. It is rather comical at times.

1 week later
#1382 1 year ago

Robert needs to show more work, less talk. At this point, he sounds like a stereotypical used car salesman huckster.

1 week later
#1391 1 year ago

How many times is Odin going to complain about G rated pins this week?

#1397 1 year ago
Quoted from o-din:

I bet your mommy won't even let you go see a PG movie.

I'm not the one who has Pinside tantrums.

2 weeks later
#1447 1 year ago

A new company has more hurdles to overcome when releasing a new game compared to the likes of a giant like Stern. Smart customers are going to question the quality and customer support right out of the gate until a reputation is established. Not all companies are created equal when it comes to support and warranties, as evidenced by the recent American Pinball and Homepin controversies. Add that to the fact that the market is at a historic level of oversaturation already, and these guys have a steep hill to climb out of the gate.

3 weeks later
#1476 1 year ago

Sounds like it's real pinball, and I'm surely hoping they got the Goonies license.

#1546 1 year ago

Since we are getting silly...

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1 week later
#1831 1 year ago

I'm just over here wondering what panzie schemes are.

1 week later
#1851 1 year ago

All a distributor has to do is form a second company under a different name, and they can sell a brand exclusively under that name. Happens more often than you think in other industries.

1 week later
#1884 1 year ago

Goonies photoshop job looks to be roughly between 5th and 7th grade level of skill. Pinball trolls need to work a little harder on the next one.

Artwork is from Fanart.tv

Screenshot_20181107-111543_Chrome (resized).jpg
4 weeks later
#1988 1 year ago

The lesson here is "more work, less talk". Instead of doing a podcast tour making promises the whole world predicted you couldn't keep, you should have just kept your nose to the grindstone and not said anything until you were ready to launch. Now you have dinged your reputation before you have even left the gate. Not a good start. I was also thinking of heading to TPF this year and was watching airfare prices. I'm firmly in the "no" column now.

#2015 1 year ago

I've been curious if fiberglass reinforced plywood would be a way to make playfields much more durable. This material is what is commonly used in trailers and box trucks for the transportation industry. There is a thin layer of fiberglass laminated to a plywood substrate. The scoops would still wear, but I would think with the traditional screen printing and a clear coat, this stuff would be extremely durable over traditional wood over the rest of the playfield.

#2017 1 year ago
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:

That stuff is heavy as hell, isn’t it? There’s got to be a balance there. If it costs double to ship a game and you need 4 people to move it, it may be a challenge

My experience is it is the same as regular plywood...it just has a 1/32" or so skin of smooth fiberglass laminated to the top. My current employer actually has a division that makes this product...I should dig into it more and see what specs I can find on it.

#2022 1 year ago
Quoted from spfxted:

Why can't they be made out of that fake wood look-a-like stuff they make decks out of?

If you are talking about the plastic Trex variety, I would think that would warp and sag over a 21" x 43" playfield. I haven't been in the field for a few years, but I am fairly sure they still do not have synthetic structural members for decks because of this inherent weakness.

As for the fiberglass laminated plywood, the one tricky thing would be leveling the inserts. Currently, the inserts are glued into the milled cavities slightly above the wood playing surface, and then the whole playfield is run through a drum sander so everything comes out level. Given the thin fiberglass layer, you would not be able to sand that thin laminated surface much at all, or you may blow through it. However, if you can accurately control the initial plywood material thickness, you may be able to precision sand the inserts down level to that fiberglass surface without blowing through the fiberglass layer.

I had a scrap piece of this FRP plywood material I used for a work bench surface once, and it took hammer blows without denting. When Deeproot mentioned taking a hammer to the playfield, this is what I thought of.

#2064 12 months ago
Quoted from yancy:

Can't you just feel the love emanating from Ben's whole being?

He's not really wrong though. And it pains me slightly to say that.

#2087 12 months ago
Quoted from gweempose:

You've obviously never experienced the joys of a virtual gangbang.

I read the whole Homepin thread, does that qualify?

1 week later
#2206 11 months ago
Quoted from Bublehead:

Magic Girl can not possibly be reviewed, categorized, critiqued, or other wise judged as a “good” game until it is finished and all mechs INSTALLED, programmed, and working, code is finished, and game is “complete”. Until then it is a flashy box of lights with some ZY artwork on it. That IP and $5 will get you a vinte latte at Starbucks, not much else.
I get excited about a pinball company when they bring a machine to the table and I can play it, like API, CGC, and most of the others trying to break into the market. I personally think deeproot shot their wad by making big noises and promises and missing their date for a big reveal at TPF. With the ammo in their quiver, they should have kept quiet, built their 5 machines, and then just showed up at the next biggest show when they were ready... drop 3 or 4 game titles onto the floor of the show, and put up pictures of them making 15 sample games of each title. Then say we are open for business, here are the first offerings from our company, we are taking orders for all of them, production starts yesterday, we have 5 machines of each title ready to ship today.
That would have blown us all out of the water, would have alleviated any JPop bad publicity, and then they could eventually offer to make people whole on zidware by giving a 50% discount on enough titles to make them whole... no money down to order.
But I am not a marketing genius... and what do I know? Not my circus, not my monkeys. And I am sure this approach has a billion flaws or cracks someone will immediately point out.

All those in favor of Bublehead giving us a tl;dr for each of his posts, please raise your hands.

3 weeks later
#2241 11 months ago

Robert is starting to make me feel like he is the kind of guy that has to be in the spotlight at all costs. Why would you come out and say this now, when you have zero games shown and already had to put your tail between your legs and walk back your original grandiose plan of launching 5 games at TPF. I feel like Robert Mueller is jealous over Stern getting all kinds of positive hype on a national stage, so Deeproot comes out with this statement to keep them relevant (in their own eyes) for another 5 minutes. Things are starting to smell a bit rotten here. Robert, if you want to put Deeproot in the headlines, show us some progress on your games. Show us SOMETHING. Stop making grand promises with zero tangible items to back them up. That is not how you build credibility. Where's the beef?

#2245 11 months ago
Quoted from lancestorm:

It’s a repost dude and now you look silly

I'm still highly skeptical until we see the goods.

#2246 11 months ago
Quoted from deeproot:

2232 was a post of a repost from TWIP repost from early 2018. And if you win the game and you don’t want us to bring it out for you, I’m sure someone else would love to have it. We are just trying to help Jeff out.
— Robert dT

Awesome, my apologies on not picking up this was a repost and most of the conclusions I made. I am still skeptical of the whole situation though...given the poor record of new companies starting up in the pinball industry. If you prove me wrong in the coming months, I promise i'll be the first to eat my shoes.

4 weeks later
#2336 10 months ago
Quoted from MarkInc:

I don’t think that the designing is the problem - it’s the assembling that’s turned out to be quad or octo times harder than assumed.

Nah, Pinball is easy.

1 week later
#2413 9 months ago

$2500 profit? What kind of fantasy land are we living in here?

3 weeks later
#2453 9 months ago
Quoted from Coyote:

So, no "5 days" at TPF this year?

That was cancelled at the beginning of the year already.

#2462 9 months ago

Or maybe Robert took peoples advice when they said "More work, less big talk and hyperbole".

#2476 9 months ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

These veterans were unemployed till DR came knocking, so as long as they are getting paid why would they jump ship?
The fact that they are still getting paid is promising. But wouldn't say it's a guarantee we'll ever see any pins.

Any pins? Robert told us we would see more pins released from DR in one year than have ever been produced before. Has that statement been officially walked back yet?

#2517 8 months ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

...that that proves that they have the trust of others that they're no frauds.

PT Barnum had a saying about that...

#2543 8 months ago

Pretty big statement that they have zero to share at a huge event in their backyard. Not a good sign at all. Especially after running their mouths so hot and heavy last year.

1 week later
#2555 8 months ago

Looks like DR has a few job openings if anyone is interested!

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#2563 8 months ago
Quoted from toyotaboy:

someone posted a link to deeproot's patent for a pinball cabinet on deadflip stream the other night. im for innovation, but im also for JUST MAKING A PINBALL MACHINE.[quoted image]

That's some extremely excessive and unnecessary hardware for a pin. I thought they were trying to push prices down...adding a bunch of crap under the playfield that has nothing to do with gameplay isn't how you do it.

1 week later
#2735 7 months ago
Quoted from Richthofen:

“If deeproot Tech misses the Delivery Date deadline through no fault of Claimant, then deeproot Tech will pay to the order of the Claimant 1x the combined RAZA/AIW deposits claimed on Claimant's proof of claim ("non-delivery payments"), in lieu of the benefits above. deeproot Tech must pay all qualifying non-delivery payments no later than sixty days after the Delivery Date.”
More cash shoveled into the furnace. Yikes.

I’m confused, is this meant to be a brag? As a spectator, I’d expect instead on noodling on 12! Or more white woods, I’d expect a better look would be at least one game complete and ready to show. Spreading yourself thin over multiple games and not being ready to deliver seems worse than putting all efforts into one game and being ready to ship.

12+ whitewoods doesn't necessarily mean 12 games. Each game could have several whitewood models to test different shot geometry, have multiples on hand to play test, or to test improvements along the design path.

#2758 7 months ago
Quoted from cjchand:

Sums up my sentiment exactly.
If they ship and it's awesome, great. If they never ship, the tables suck, cost too much, etc, then take your money elsewhere.
Speaking of money, I don't get why people are concerned about how much money they're burning through. It's all coming out of Robert's wallet, so why should we care?
Anyway, happy speculating, everyone!

It's not Robert's wallet, they are using private investor monies.

#2765 7 months ago

40 animators? Are making video games or pinball machines? Or virtual pins?

#2816 7 months ago

I'm guessing screen across the back of the playfield, under the glass.

#2988 7 months ago

The Cleveland Browns won roughly 59 of their 176 games since 2006.

#3055 7 months ago
Quoted from toyotaboy:

so much this.. where i work i can have the greatest new design in the industry (and have cost savings), but of the ROI isnt less than 3 years it gets shot down immediately. if the camera replacing switches idea had merit, any manufacturer would jump at it. think about the cost of all those switches, and the wiring going to them, and the connectors.

3 years on ROI? Sounds like a dream world. We can't get the parking lines painted unless we can show a full ROI in 16 months.

#3064 7 months ago

Speaking of pinball tech, I'm surprised scorekeeping hasn't been somehow been made to be Bluetooth downloadable for tournaments and whatnot. Log in via QR scan on the machine, and you could see a breakdown of exactly where each point came from in your game, with what shot combos, etc. You could even set up a remote league that is tamper proof and easy to run.

#3118 7 months ago
Quoted from Roostking:

Who did Why Snow rip off? I guess I don't understand the hatred for him.

Search back over the Predator mess.

1 week later
#3335 7 months ago

Pinball is easy when you are burning through 750k of other peoples money every month with no money coming back in.

#3338 7 months ago

If I ever get to a point in my life where I have nothing better to do than to get hammered 5x a week while picking fights on Pinside, I hope someone just takes me out behind the barn and puts me out to pasture.

#3342 7 months ago
Quoted from adol75:

It’s the bet every investor and entrepreneur make, what is wrong with that ?

Because they are obviously behind schedule, and have probably had to temper the expectations of said investors from what has been originally arrogantly promised. I hope they have a very patient group of investors.

#3364 7 months ago

Star Wars topper has to be the favorite horse right now.

2 weeks later
#3467 6 months ago

Robert is soon going to be challenging Mike from Homepin on being the biggest toolbag in the Pinball scene. Odd way to try to sell the world on your business. Robert sounds like he is engaging in a middle school "my dad is better than your dad" argument, but has absolutely nothing to back it up with. So everyone else just laughs at him.

#3483 6 months ago
Quoted from Chalkey:

Deeproot has months of radio silence and you guys complain and speculate. They put out information and the same posters complain and speculate. Stay classy pinside.

You mean DR put out a back-handed statement while insulting their potential customers? A statement to the likeness of "We're sorry we made such bold and outlandish promises we didn't keep in the beginning, but we promise the wait is worth it!" would go a lot farther than that tone-deaf pile of words they went with.

#3484 6 months ago
Quoted from deeproot:

You mean like a GB that won’t turn on half the time, the two brand new premium Batman 66’s I bought that are already more dimpled than the moon and with broken mechs already, a Hobbit that’s been dead for months, a Dialed In with constant sound and rebooting problems, and a TNA with so many problems that it has kept my eningeers from engineering on deeproot stuff? Playing and maintaining a deeproot game is pretty refreshing for me thus far...
— Robert dT

You have quite possibly the worst luck out of any pinball machine owner I have ever encountered, or your engineers are not very good. It sounds to me like you guys messed up your "test" machines during the reverse engineering process, and now want to blame the manufacturer. Rebooting/Problems turning on are not exactly common issues.

#3528 6 months ago
Quoted from InfiniteLives:

he also says he doesnt take posts on here seriously but im pretty sure he said on here he blacklisted folks from the zidware claims for posts on pinside... that seems serious?

Guarantee you he reads this thread several times a day. His timing is always right on the money.

2 weeks later
#3680 5 months ago

They sure do know how to use a lot of words to say absolutely nothing.

2 weeks later
#3908 5 months ago
Quoted from SunKing:

Also from the article:
"They have their production areas, though they are currently empty for the most part."

This is very telling. You don't tool up a production line with the capability of producing "tens of titles" at once while outproducing Stern and JJP combined in a matter of weeks or months. I have faith though, because pinball is EASY!

#3936 5 months ago
Quoted from mufcmufc:

Does no one else find it odd that the rest of the TWIP site works perfectly?

Surely someone must have made a copy of that article before it disappeared.

#3952 5 months ago

Anyone else find it interesting that out of all the conjecture and jumping to conclusions in this thread, Robert decided to single out Ben for a pretty inane comment? Something about a seemingly simple comment from Ben cut pretty deep. Threatening to sue anyone and everyone is a pretty Andrew Heighway-esque move, and it isn't a good look for the spokesman and face of the business.

#3983 5 months ago
Quoted from jj44114:

Where are the moderators on this one. Please end it.

never (resized).jpg
1 week later
#4093 5 months ago
Quoted from Mr68:

I know you didn't intend to but you just admitted that you're a troll and a Pinside bully. Not a shock to most of us and you're probably the last to find out.
So why don't you man up and take it private rather than play childish games involving all of Pinside.
Screenshot to account for the editing and deleting that you're so famous for.
[quoted image]

Glad I am not the only one that sees this crap day in and day out on here.

2 weeks later
#4244 4 months ago

I disassemble my games to get them out of my basement. Pulling playfields solo is very awkward, and they are just heavy enough to be a real pain in the ass to do solo. There is a real risk of scratching the cabinet every time. That's the main reason it's never going to fly.

#4290 4 months ago
Quoted from jonesjb:

So Deeproot retracted that statement?

Yes. Kinda.

Deeproot was so adamant and arrogant a year ago about how they were going to release and sell more pins in 2019 than any pinball company ever...and here we are, looking at August, and we have not even seen a single one of their "tens" of whitewoods flip. They won't even give a hint of an MSRP at this point. It is very difficult for me to believe a single piece of propaganda that comes out of the Deeproot offices from here on out. When they show me games that work, games being made and customers unboxing their games...maybe I will begin believe them. Stern continues and will continue to eat their lunch, and it isn't even close.

#4372 4 months ago
Quoted from Fulltilt:

Everything seems to want to revolve around Jpop.
There are other people on the team, unless I missed the exit announcements.
[quoted image]

Who is the blurred out one in the back?

2 weeks later
#4592 3 months ago
Quoted from Mr68:

Another casualty of Pinside?[quoted image]

I heard he got caught disseminating legal advice without a license.

1 month later
#5000 76 days ago

How are these guys able to absorb another year of $750k/month in liabilities? They just keep making that nut they need to crack bigger and bigger every month this hyperbole train carries on.

#5015 76 days ago

Fiberglass reinforced plywood that trailers and box truck bodies are made from wouldn't dent with a hammer. Also, phenolic resin sheets are amazingly durable as well.

4 weeks later
#5076 48 days ago

Have faith everyone, they still have 2 more months to deliver more games in 2019 than any manufacturer in the history of pinball!

I'm thinking the 5 days of Deeproot will wind up being more like the 5 years of Deeproot.

3 weeks later
#5329 26 days ago

When you see this partially complete game next week, remember...this is what years of work and $750k a month in costs have produced.

#5349 25 days ago
Quoted from frankmac:

Is 750K a month a real number?
Sounds way out of line.

Robert himself boasted about that number, early this year.

#5382 25 days ago

Really curious about how the pricing will humble the competition. If they are able to sell these things for sub-$4k, we are in for a wild ride.

#5426 25 days ago
Quoted from frolic:

My gut predicts $7k-$7500.
Robert talks a lot about "value", so there could be more for the money at that price range, better value than a Stern Premium. But I don't think he's equating "value" with "cheap".

He said pricing will "humble the competition". I don't see how you do that by selling a game for more than the current lowest price Stern pro offering.

#5662 24 days ago
Quoted from jimwe5t:

This is hilarious: a new Trojan horse rolls into town with some on lookers fawning all over it. Something smells, as DR investors might be being scammed (For example: DR built an unneeded auditorium, instead of building and selling even their first machine - do like everyone else does and show at a convention and save investor money for building up inventories of something that actually brings in revenue - pinball machines). Some people are giving DR kudos for JPop work done years ago when he had Zidware.
Sure they haven’t taken pinball money yet, so some are giving DR a pass, but what about the poor DR investors??? Their money is being spent like no tomorrow $7.5 million (DR claimed expenditure figures, not mine) a month and this is all they have to show for years of work??? A machine that DR claims is not the finished version and almost everything on the machine is going to change? Wow, are we expected to believe the Trojan horse is a great gift? Looking at this, causes great concerns. Hope the investors don’t lose out on their hard earned investment monies, because if this is all they have at this point in the business cycle that began 2016/17 and I we’re an investor, I’d be worried big time. Hope what appears to be possible isn’t. Just my opinion from looking at it closer.
DR confirmed game list is JPop titles he began years ago.

I am as big of a DR skeptic as anyone, but for the love of god...at least get your facts straight. Its 750k a month, not 7.5 million.

#5736 23 days ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Very reminiscent. It's basically a miniature roto target.
Pretty cool, but not sure how it's going to suit a modern game. The biggest problem with rotos have always been that they aren't reliably aligned, and that they are freaking huge taking up a ton of above/below playfield real estate. This small version probably takes care of both of those issues.
The question is if anybody cares in 2019 about roto targets. The return of the vari-target with Ripleys didn't exactly set the pinball world aflame.

Also, just because it's a new mech, doesn't mean it's any good. See: Rescue 911 Helicopter.

#6306 19 days ago

Sounds an awful lot like there will not be any "cheap" deeproot games. Robert appears ready to use their "earth shattering" features to extract the highest price possible.

#6592 17 days ago

I am headed over to Costco to get my law degree so I don't get in trouble with Robert for giving legal advice without a license.

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