(Topic ID: 203700)

deeproot Pinball thread

By pin2d

2 years ago

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Topic index (key posts)

14 key posts have been marked in this topic, showing the first 10 items.

Display key post list sorted by: Post date | Keypost summary | User name

Post #111 Firsthand information from the Magic Girl programmer. Posted by applejuice (2 years ago)

Post #3026 RAZA promotional video Posted by vireland (1 year ago)

Post #5771 First RAZA gameplay video Posted by ZMeny (10 months ago)

Post #5874 RAZA video with more audible game sounds Posted by zaphX (10 months ago)

Post #5926 First RAZA video with successful ramp completion Posted by zaphX (10 months ago)

Post #5967 Another RAZA gameplay video Posted by flynnibus (10 months ago)

Post #6050 Closeup pictures of key playfield features Posted by Potatoloco (10 months ago)

Post #6133 Video of display animations Posted by LateCenturyMods (10 months ago)

Post #6329 Summary of Robert Mueller's interview Posted by jeffspinballpalace (10 months ago)

Post #6724 RAZA Gameplay video Posted by DS_Nadine (10 months ago)

Topic indices are generated from key posts and maintained by Pinside Editors. For more information, or to become an editor yourself read this post!

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#922 2 years ago

There is no way they are going to fit the equipment, people and manufacturing capability to build nearly every part of a pinball machine as well as the machine itself in that building. You are going to need engineers, machinists, tool and die makers, electricians, woodworkers, assemblers etc. There is a reason most companies outsource the parts in their machines. It makes no sense whatsoever to invest in an injection molder to make only flipper bats and posts. Metalworking equipment to make pop bumper parts and ramps. Electronic equipment to make the boards, switches and sensors, etc. Now bring all of these skilled tradespeople and machinery together under one roof in a matter of less than a year, AND produce 3 functional, debugged machines ready to ship for for launch day? This sounds ridiculously optimistic. But, so long as he isn't taking peoples money up front and employees are paid... Giddyup!

#923 2 years ago

And I left out factoring in building the tooling to make the parts as well. Building tooling (like injection molds) in house could be a quarter million-plus dollar investment in machine shop equipment alone. Having tooling like molds made outside could have 10 to 20 week lead times easily in this economy... I deal with it every day.

#925 2 years ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

I think he's perfectly cognisant of the language he's using, so my point is that it's likely to be either major exaggeration or that it will prove ruinous. It's simply not possible to make everything yourself without incurring unneeded cost and problems. Especially in the kind of lean, low cost operation and product he's promising. Maybe in 10-15 years with huge advancements and lowering in cost of 3D printing. But not now.

Anyone who actually works with 3d printing on a commercial level knows full well that it still has major limitations on many levels when it comes to using it to manufacture an end product. I surely hope that isn't what DR is banking on.

#1002 2 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Don't be too intrigued. Every single one of them was out of work.

I don't get why all these manufacturers are always bragging about hiring these old dudes that made games 20 or 30 years ago. I want to see new, young design talent discovered. They are out there, and you probably can pay them less than these old reheated design ideas from the same 5 people.

2 weeks later
#1038 2 years ago
Quoted from Cheeks:

They are employing someone who did harm to me. JPOP screwed me out of my money for RAZA! Deeproot hired him and they are going to give me a free game for my lost money. You're damn right I'm going to support them.

What's a bigger olive branch than assuming ownership of JPOP's pissed off customers, and giving them a free game?
Other than Pisiders needing something to be pissed about, I just don't get the angst here. If they hired JPOP and said F U to previous owners by asking them to buy one of his new games, I would totally get it. But that's not what they're doing. They're building games without taking money from anyone (whether that's successful or not remains to be seen) and in the process they're giving restitution to the people John screwed over. What the hell is there in that to be upset about?

They never said they are giving free games, did they?

1 week later
#1099 2 years ago

After listening to the interview, I hope Deeproot does disrupt the market a bit. I am imagining some kind of internet connectivity to these games as being the one way they are going to do it. The other way is automated manufacturing. I think there are ways to cut some labor out of pinball manufacturing with some investment.

2 weeks later
#1237 2 years ago

My eyes are on the game, not the LCD.

#1282 2 years ago
Quoted from mcbPalisade:

How many times I've been in a group of engineers that were saying "It isn't supposed to do that!"

Our wannabe EE's famous saying is "That can't happen!", as it does it 10 times right in front of him. It is rather comical at times.

1 week later
#1382 2 years ago

Robert needs to show more work, less talk. At this point, he sounds like a stereotypical used car salesman huckster.

1 week later
#1391 2 years ago

How many times is Odin going to complain about G rated pins this week?

#1397 2 years ago
Quoted from o-din:

I bet your mommy won't even let you go see a PG movie.

I'm not the one who has Pinside tantrums.

2 weeks later
#1447 2 years ago

A new company has more hurdles to overcome when releasing a new game compared to the likes of a giant like Stern. Smart customers are going to question the quality and customer support right out of the gate until a reputation is established. Not all companies are created equal when it comes to support and warranties, as evidenced by the recent American Pinball and Homepin controversies. Add that to the fact that the market is at a historic level of oversaturation already, and these guys have a steep hill to climb out of the gate.

3 weeks later
#1476 1 year ago

Sounds like it's real pinball, and I'm surely hoping they got the Goonies license.

#1546 1 year ago

Since we are getting silly...

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1 week later
#1831 1 year ago

I'm just over here wondering what panzie schemes are.

1 week later
#1851 1 year ago

All a distributor has to do is form a second company under a different name, and they can sell a brand exclusively under that name. Happens more often than you think in other industries.

1 week later
#1884 1 year ago

Goonies photoshop job looks to be roughly between 5th and 7th grade level of skill. Pinball trolls need to work a little harder on the next one.

Artwork is from Fanart.tv

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4 weeks later
#1988 1 year ago

The lesson here is "more work, less talk". Instead of doing a podcast tour making promises the whole world predicted you couldn't keep, you should have just kept your nose to the grindstone and not said anything until you were ready to launch. Now you have dinged your reputation before you have even left the gate. Not a good start. I was also thinking of heading to TPF this year and was watching airfare prices. I'm firmly in the "no" column now.

#2015 1 year ago

I've been curious if fiberglass reinforced plywood would be a way to make playfields much more durable. This material is what is commonly used in trailers and box trucks for the transportation industry. There is a thin layer of fiberglass laminated to a plywood substrate. The scoops would still wear, but I would think with the traditional screen printing and a clear coat, this stuff would be extremely durable over traditional wood over the rest of the playfield.

#2017 1 year ago
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:

That stuff is heavy as hell, isn’t it? There’s got to be a balance there. If it costs double to ship a game and you need 4 people to move it, it may be a challenge

My experience is it is the same as regular plywood...it just has a 1/32" or so skin of smooth fiberglass laminated to the top. My current employer actually has a division that makes this product...I should dig into it more and see what specs I can find on it.

#2022 1 year ago
Quoted from spfxted:

Why can't they be made out of that fake wood look-a-like stuff they make decks out of?

If you are talking about the plastic Trex variety, I would think that would warp and sag over a 21" x 43" playfield. I haven't been in the field for a few years, but I am fairly sure they still do not have synthetic structural members for decks because of this inherent weakness.

As for the fiberglass laminated plywood, the one tricky thing would be leveling the inserts. Currently, the inserts are glued into the milled cavities slightly above the wood playing surface, and then the whole playfield is run through a drum sander so everything comes out level. Given the thin fiberglass layer, you would not be able to sand that thin laminated surface much at all, or you may blow through it. However, if you can accurately control the initial plywood material thickness, you may be able to precision sand the inserts down level to that fiberglass surface without blowing through the fiberglass layer.

I had a scrap piece of this FRP plywood material I used for a work bench surface once, and it took hammer blows without denting. When Deeproot mentioned taking a hammer to the playfield, this is what I thought of.

#2064 1 year ago
Quoted from yancy:

Can't you just feel the love emanating from Ben's whole being?

He's not really wrong though. And it pains me slightly to say that.

#2087 1 year ago
Quoted from gweempose:

You've obviously never experienced the joys of a virtual gangbang.

I read the whole Homepin thread, does that qualify?

1 week later
#2206 1 year ago
Quoted from Bublehead:

Magic Girl can not possibly be reviewed, categorized, critiqued, or other wise judged as a “good” game until it is finished and all mechs INSTALLED, programmed, and working, code is finished, and game is “complete”. Until then it is a flashy box of lights with some ZY artwork on it. That IP and $5 will get you a vinte latte at Starbucks, not much else.
I get excited about a pinball company when they bring a machine to the table and I can play it, like API, CGC, and most of the others trying to break into the market. I personally think deeproot shot their wad by making big noises and promises and missing their date for a big reveal at TPF. With the ammo in their quiver, they should have kept quiet, built their 5 machines, and then just showed up at the next biggest show when they were ready... drop 3 or 4 game titles onto the floor of the show, and put up pictures of them making 15 sample games of each title. Then say we are open for business, here are the first offerings from our company, we are taking orders for all of them, production starts yesterday, we have 5 machines of each title ready to ship today.
That would have blown us all out of the water, would have alleviated any JPop bad publicity, and then they could eventually offer to make people whole on zidware by giving a 50% discount on enough titles to make them whole... no money down to order.
But I am not a marketing genius... and what do I know? Not my circus, not my monkeys. And I am sure this approach has a billion flaws or cracks someone will immediately point out.

All those in favor of Bublehead giving us a tl;dr for each of his posts, please raise your hands.

3 weeks later
#2241 1 year ago

Robert is starting to make me feel like he is the kind of guy that has to be in the spotlight at all costs. Why would you come out and say this now, when you have zero games shown and already had to put your tail between your legs and walk back your original grandiose plan of launching 5 games at TPF. I feel like Robert Mueller is jealous over Stern getting all kinds of positive hype on a national stage, so Deeproot comes out with this statement to keep them relevant (in their own eyes) for another 5 minutes. Things are starting to smell a bit rotten here. Robert, if you want to put Deeproot in the headlines, show us some progress on your games. Show us SOMETHING. Stop making grand promises with zero tangible items to back them up. That is not how you build credibility. Where's the beef?

#2245 1 year ago
Quoted from lancestorm:

It’s a repost dude and now you look silly

I'm still highly skeptical until we see the goods.

#2246 1 year ago
Quoted from deeproot:

2232 was a post of a repost from TWIP repost from early 2018. And if you win the game and you don’t want us to bring it out for you, I’m sure someone else would love to have it. We are just trying to help Jeff out.
— Robert dT

Awesome, my apologies on not picking up this was a repost and most of the conclusions I made. I am still skeptical of the whole situation though...given the poor record of new companies starting up in the pinball industry. If you prove me wrong in the coming months, I promise i'll be the first to eat my shoes.

4 weeks later
#2336 1 year ago
Quoted from MarkInc:

I don’t think that the designing is the problem - it’s the assembling that’s turned out to be quad or octo times harder than assumed.

Nah, Pinball is easy.

1 week later
#2413 1 year ago

$2500 profit? What kind of fantasy land are we living in here?

3 weeks later
#2453 1 year ago
Quoted from Coyote:

So, no "5 days" at TPF this year?

That was cancelled at the beginning of the year already.

#2462 1 year ago

Or maybe Robert took peoples advice when they said "More work, less big talk and hyperbole".

#2476 1 year ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

These veterans were unemployed till DR came knocking, so as long as they are getting paid why would they jump ship?
The fact that they are still getting paid is promising. But wouldn't say it's a guarantee we'll ever see any pins.

Any pins? Robert told us we would see more pins released from DR in one year than have ever been produced before. Has that statement been officially walked back yet?

#2517 1 year ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

...that that proves that they have the trust of others that they're no frauds.

PT Barnum had a saying about that...

#2543 1 year ago

Pretty big statement that they have zero to share at a huge event in their backyard. Not a good sign at all. Especially after running their mouths so hot and heavy last year.

1 week later
#2555 1 year ago

Looks like DR has a few job openings if anyone is interested!

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#2563 1 year ago
Quoted from toyotaboy:

someone posted a link to deeproot's patent for a pinball cabinet on deadflip stream the other night. im for innovation, but im also for JUST MAKING A PINBALL MACHINE.[quoted image]

That's some extremely excessive and unnecessary hardware for a pin. I thought they were trying to push prices down...adding a bunch of crap under the playfield that has nothing to do with gameplay isn't how you do it.

1 week later
#2735 1 year ago
Quoted from Richthofen:

“If deeproot Tech misses the Delivery Date deadline through no fault of Claimant, then deeproot Tech will pay to the order of the Claimant 1x the combined RAZA/AIW deposits claimed on Claimant's proof of claim ("non-delivery payments"), in lieu of the benefits above. deeproot Tech must pay all qualifying non-delivery payments no later than sixty days after the Delivery Date.”
More cash shoveled into the furnace. Yikes.

I’m confused, is this meant to be a brag? As a spectator, I’d expect instead on noodling on 12! Or more white woods, I’d expect a better look would be at least one game complete and ready to show. Spreading yourself thin over multiple games and not being ready to deliver seems worse than putting all efforts into one game and being ready to ship.

12+ whitewoods doesn't necessarily mean 12 games. Each game could have several whitewood models to test different shot geometry, have multiples on hand to play test, or to test improvements along the design path.

#2758 1 year ago
Quoted from cjchand:

Sums up my sentiment exactly.
If they ship and it's awesome, great. If they never ship, the tables suck, cost too much, etc, then take your money elsewhere.
Speaking of money, I don't get why people are concerned about how much money they're burning through. It's all coming out of Robert's wallet, so why should we care?
Anyway, happy speculating, everyone!

It's not Robert's wallet, they are using private investor monies.

#2765 1 year ago

40 animators? Are making video games or pinball machines? Or virtual pins?

#2816 1 year ago

I'm guessing screen across the back of the playfield, under the glass.

#2988 1 year ago

The Cleveland Browns won roughly 59 of their 176 games since 2006.

#3055 1 year ago
Quoted from toyotaboy:

so much this.. where i work i can have the greatest new design in the industry (and have cost savings), but of the ROI isnt less than 3 years it gets shot down immediately. if the camera replacing switches idea had merit, any manufacturer would jump at it. think about the cost of all those switches, and the wiring going to them, and the connectors.

3 years on ROI? Sounds like a dream world. We can't get the parking lines painted unless we can show a full ROI in 16 months.

#3064 1 year ago

Speaking of pinball tech, I'm surprised scorekeeping hasn't been somehow been made to be Bluetooth downloadable for tournaments and whatnot. Log in via QR scan on the machine, and you could see a breakdown of exactly where each point came from in your game, with what shot combos, etc. You could even set up a remote league that is tamper proof and easy to run.

#3118 1 year ago
Quoted from Roostking:

Who did Why Snow rip off? I guess I don't understand the hatred for him.

Search back over the Predator mess.

1 week later
#3335 1 year ago

Pinball is easy when you are burning through 750k of other peoples money every month with no money coming back in.

#3338 1 year ago

If I ever get to a point in my life where I have nothing better to do than to get hammered 5x a week while picking fights on Pinside, I hope someone just takes me out behind the barn and puts me out to pasture.

#3342 1 year ago
Quoted from adol75:

It’s the bet every investor and entrepreneur make, what is wrong with that ?

Because they are obviously behind schedule, and have probably had to temper the expectations of said investors from what has been originally arrogantly promised. I hope they have a very patient group of investors.

#3364 1 year ago

Star Wars topper has to be the favorite horse right now.

2 weeks later
#3467 1 year ago

Robert is soon going to be challenging Mike from Homepin on being the biggest toolbag in the Pinball scene. Odd way to try to sell the world on your business. Robert sounds like he is engaging in a middle school "my dad is better than your dad" argument, but has absolutely nothing to back it up with. So everyone else just laughs at him.

#3483 1 year ago
Quoted from Chalkey:

Deeproot has months of radio silence and you guys complain and speculate. They put out information and the same posters complain and speculate. Stay classy pinside.

You mean DR put out a back-handed statement while insulting their potential customers? A statement to the likeness of "We're sorry we made such bold and outlandish promises we didn't keep in the beginning, but we promise the wait is worth it!" would go a lot farther than that tone-deaf pile of words they went with.

#3484 1 year ago
Quoted from deeproot:

You mean like a GB that won’t turn on half the time, the two brand new premium Batman 66’s I bought that are already more dimpled than the moon and with broken mechs already, a Hobbit that’s been dead for months, a Dialed In with constant sound and rebooting problems, and a TNA with so many problems that it has kept my eningeers from engineering on deeproot stuff? Playing and maintaining a deeproot game is pretty refreshing for me thus far...
— Robert dT

You have quite possibly the worst luck out of any pinball machine owner I have ever encountered, or your engineers are not very good. It sounds to me like you guys messed up your "test" machines during the reverse engineering process, and now want to blame the manufacturer. Rebooting/Problems turning on are not exactly common issues.

#3528 1 year ago
Quoted from InfiniteLives:

he also says he doesnt take posts on here seriously but im pretty sure he said on here he blacklisted folks from the zidware claims for posts on pinside... that seems serious?

Guarantee you he reads this thread several times a day. His timing is always right on the money.

2 weeks later
#3680 1 year ago

They sure do know how to use a lot of words to say absolutely nothing.

2 weeks later
#3908 1 year ago
Quoted from SunKing:

Also from the article:
"They have their production areas, though they are currently empty for the most part."

This is very telling. You don't tool up a production line with the capability of producing "tens of titles" at once while outproducing Stern and JJP combined in a matter of weeks or months. I have faith though, because pinball is EASY!

#3936 1 year ago
Quoted from mufcmufc:

Does no one else find it odd that the rest of the TWIP site works perfectly?

Surely someone must have made a copy of that article before it disappeared.

#3952 1 year ago

Anyone else find it interesting that out of all the conjecture and jumping to conclusions in this thread, Robert decided to single out Ben for a pretty inane comment? Something about a seemingly simple comment from Ben cut pretty deep. Threatening to sue anyone and everyone is a pretty Andrew Heighway-esque move, and it isn't a good look for the spokesman and face of the business.

#3983 1 year ago
Quoted from jj44114:

Where are the moderators on this one. Please end it.

never (resized).jpg
1 week later
#4093 1 year ago
Quoted from Mr68:

I know you didn't intend to but you just admitted that you're a troll and a Pinside bully. Not a shock to most of us and you're probably the last to find out.
So why don't you man up and take it private rather than play childish games involving all of Pinside.
Screenshot to account for the editing and deleting that you're so famous for.
[quoted image]

Glad I am not the only one that sees this crap day in and day out on here.

2 weeks later
#4244 1 year ago

I disassemble my games to get them out of my basement. Pulling playfields solo is very awkward, and they are just heavy enough to be a real pain in the ass to do solo. There is a real risk of scratching the cabinet every time. That's the main reason it's never going to fly.

#4290 1 year ago
Quoted from jonesjb:

So Deeproot retracted that statement?

Yes. Kinda.

Deeproot was so adamant and arrogant a year ago about how they were going to release and sell more pins in 2019 than any pinball company ever...and here we are, looking at August, and we have not even seen a single one of their "tens" of whitewoods flip. They won't even give a hint of an MSRP at this point. It is very difficult for me to believe a single piece of propaganda that comes out of the Deeproot offices from here on out. When they show me games that work, games being made and customers unboxing their games...maybe I will begin believe them. Stern continues and will continue to eat their lunch, and it isn't even close.

#4372 1 year ago
Quoted from Fulltilt:

Everything seems to want to revolve around Jpop.
There are other people on the team, unless I missed the exit announcements.
[quoted image]

Who is the blurred out one in the back?

2 weeks later
#4592 1 year ago
Quoted from Mr68:

Another casualty of Pinside?[quoted image]

I heard he got caught disseminating legal advice without a license.

1 month later
#5000 12 months ago

How are these guys able to absorb another year of $750k/month in liabilities? They just keep making that nut they need to crack bigger and bigger every month this hyperbole train carries on.

#5015 12 months ago

Fiberglass reinforced plywood that trailers and box truck bodies are made from wouldn't dent with a hammer. Also, phenolic resin sheets are amazingly durable as well.

4 weeks later
#5076 11 months ago

Have faith everyone, they still have 2 more months to deliver more games in 2019 than any manufacturer in the history of pinball!

I'm thinking the 5 days of Deeproot will wind up being more like the 5 years of Deeproot.

3 weeks later
#5329 10 months ago

When you see this partially complete game next week, remember...this is what years of work and $750k a month in costs have produced.

#5349 10 months ago
Quoted from frankmac:

Is 750K a month a real number?
Sounds way out of line.

Robert himself boasted about that number, early this year.

#5382 10 months ago

Really curious about how the pricing will humble the competition. If they are able to sell these things for sub-$4k, we are in for a wild ride.

#5426 10 months ago
Quoted from frolic:

My gut predicts $7k-$7500.
Robert talks a lot about "value", so there could be more for the money at that price range, better value than a Stern Premium. But I don't think he's equating "value" with "cheap".

He said pricing will "humble the competition". I don't see how you do that by selling a game for more than the current lowest price Stern pro offering.

#5662 10 months ago
Quoted from jimwe5t:

This is hilarious: a new Trojan horse rolls into town with some on lookers fawning all over it. Something smells, as DR investors might be being scammed (For example: DR built an unneeded auditorium, instead of building and selling even their first machine - do like everyone else does and show at a convention and save investor money for building up inventories of something that actually brings in revenue - pinball machines). Some people are giving DR kudos for JPop work done years ago when he had Zidware.
Sure they haven’t taken pinball money yet, so some are giving DR a pass, but what about the poor DR investors??? Their money is being spent like no tomorrow $7.5 million (DR claimed expenditure figures, not mine) a month and this is all they have to show for years of work??? A machine that DR claims is not the finished version and almost everything on the machine is going to change? Wow, are we expected to believe the Trojan horse is a great gift? Looking at this, causes great concerns. Hope the investors don’t lose out on their hard earned investment monies, because if this is all they have at this point in the business cycle that began 2016/17 and I we’re an investor, I’d be worried big time. Hope what appears to be possible isn’t. Just my opinion from looking at it closer.
DR confirmed game list is JPop titles he began years ago.

I am as big of a DR skeptic as anyone, but for the love of god...at least get your facts straight. Its 750k a month, not 7.5 million.

#5736 10 months ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Very reminiscent. It's basically a miniature roto target.
Pretty cool, but not sure how it's going to suit a modern game. The biggest problem with rotos have always been that they aren't reliably aligned, and that they are freaking huge taking up a ton of above/below playfield real estate. This small version probably takes care of both of those issues.
The question is if anybody cares in 2019 about roto targets. The return of the vari-target with Ripleys didn't exactly set the pinball world aflame.

Also, just because it's a new mech, doesn't mean it's any good. See: Rescue 911 Helicopter.

#6306 10 months ago

Sounds an awful lot like there will not be any "cheap" deeproot games. Robert appears ready to use their "earth shattering" features to extract the highest price possible.

#6592 10 months ago

I am headed over to Costco to get my law degree so I don't get in trouble with Robert for giving legal advice without a license.

3 weeks later
#6927 9 months ago

Today has to be a dark day for Deeproot...Punny Factory is about to decimate the market after being revealed yesterday.

But in all seriousness, that clown in Canada just brought a finished game to market in a fraction of the time it has taken Robert and his dream team to show us a half finished Jpop retread.

2 weeks later
#7015 8 months ago

I hear they poached JJP's animation guy?

#7022 8 months ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

Could be wrong but I think they are referring to David Thele. Old news

No, not Thele. This was on the most recent K podcast.

#7024 8 months ago
Quoted from frolic:

If this is true, it’s not because they needed him because we know how deep their visual art department is. It was done solely to hurt JJP.

The thing about it is, if you are having success with a known manufacturer, what would make you jump ship to go to some new company that hasn't shown a thing in the last two years? Even the promise of a pile of money wouldn't be really smart in the long term if this new, unproven company goes tits up. Could something be going on a JJP? They recently lost their tech support person from what I understand as well. Supposedly GNR is finished already and sitting in a closet until reveal time.

#7030 8 months ago
Quoted from PismoArcade:

K just retracted this on Facebook. Was never true.
[quoted image]

Just saw this, I'm glad someone nuked this rumor quickly!

#7032 8 months ago

Also of note, the last interview K had with Robert from Deeproot (Episode 420) was deleted some time ago. Wonder why?

#7131 8 months ago

Curious if DR has started to build out any of their manufacturing space yet? They currently have a job posted for an Engineering Project Manager.

#7145 8 months ago

How quickly everyone forgets about the grand promises and hyperbole made by Heighway Pinball. I don't blame anyone for being skeptical of a company that has really shown very little so far after years of work.

#7163 8 months ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

Financial talk aside our Deeproot playfield arrived today and I must say it is refreshing to see pinball art like this alive and well. Really is rather beautiful in person. Have not had a chance to play the game yet but Very much looking forward to it!![quoted image]

Found the new Deeproot tech they have been talking about....invisible inserts!

#7169 8 months ago

Raise your hand if you are planning on making a trip across the country to go see Raza played again?

1 week later
#7264 8 months ago
Quoted from chad:

Kind of like some new cars that do not include a spare tire....

Getting rid of the spare tire is as much a cost savings as it is a weight reduction tool to help vehicles meet MPG rules. Both reasons are poor though, in my opinion.

#7292 8 months ago
Quoted from fumbleflippers:

I’m hoping they show up to Texas with a truckload of games ready to sell & pickup immediately. Anything less will be a let down after two years of hype.

Now would be a good time to start letting yourself down easy.

#7335 8 months ago
Quoted from mkecasey:

Well said. I'll admit that I have been skeptical at times of Deeproot. But they really owe us nothing up to this point. No money has been collected, orders are not being taken. It's incredibly smart of them to reveal their way, especially if they plan on disrupting the industry. I think criticism should only be warranted after launch if they fail to deliver on orders and/or promises.

I think the main issue Pinsiders have with Deeproot is the the way Robert came into the scene with guns blazing and making huge promises he failed to deliver on so far. Hurling insults at other manufacturers that actually have tangible products you can buy today is a bit of a cheap shot when all you have shown in two years is a barely working "revival" of an already known game. A different PR approach from the beginning definitely would change the narrative from what we see going on here today. While Pinside isn't a perfect place, Robert himself brewed up the "cesspool" he foolishly complains about. Robert, if all you smell is shit when you come here...maybe you should check your shoe?

3 weeks later
#7396 7 months ago

In Roberts last interview, he definitely walked back his earlier boasts about pricing and pivoted to "best value for the money", which tells me these games are going to be expensive. He is also banking on outselling Stern in every way. Can the market really absorb a large quantity of titles at a high price point? I don't think this is possible. $8k, $9k and up is going to price Deeproot out of a big chunk of the market. I think if you want to inflict pain to your competitors, you need to have some games priced below Stern Pro pricing with better features. Selling all of your games at or above Stern Premium pricing just makes you another boutique manufacturer.

#7399 7 months ago
Quoted from DanDanDAN:

All marketing data points to appeal to the largest demographic for a luxury home entertainment device, think TV, entertainment system, pool table,etc., the top price point is, give or take a few dollars is $3K.
To mass market a pinball machine for the "non-pinball" to the mass home market a manufacture would need to:
1. Create a desire for a substantial percentage of the average home owner to want a pinball machine in their home.
2. Keep the price point under $3K.
1. would take a multi media multi million dollar marketing campaign
2. would result in a machine that most people in the pinball community would not consider a "real" pinball machine.
my $0.02

Arcade 1up and Toyshock are already doing this with digital pinball. Well, the 1up machine isn't out yet...but it's set to drop shortly.

#7440 7 months ago

I just want to know if Ben Heck is still practicing law without a license?

#7445 7 months ago
Quoted from TechnicalSteam:

Let's see think DeepRoot has an advantage of having Texas location. Lower Taxes and lower cost.
Swap-able playfields - would be totally rad. That would make production cost less and shipping savings. Especially if
the had the cabinet design to end all cabinets. Sturdy but lite and a very easy playfield swap
that someone could do on location with a thumb drive / sd card or wifi for code.
I would love to see a company push the playfield envelope a bit more.
Give users a chance to home grow more elaborate toys with a SDK kit.

Heighway already tried this, and it went over with a resounding "thud". p3 Multimorphic isn't exactly setting the world on fire their swappable playfields either.

#7464 7 months ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

What did Robert say, in the last Kaneda podcast interview, or write in any public announcement, that makes some of you think that deeproot would be going the route of swappable playfields? I just don't see any evidence.

They patented a playfield removal mechanism.

#7541 7 months ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Haggis Playfields are unproven... yet you've already put them on a pedestal. No wonder it's all rainbows for you..
Haggis is basically taking the hardtop route.. and hasn't excercised any of the realities of the game's real world practicalities.. and they aren't coming from a position of experience either. Let the chaos of the real world (and an actual completed product) vet something before you declare it a winner.

And the Haggis hardtop is currently bonded to wood with double sided tape.

1 week later
#7631 6 months ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

As Robert Mueller's interview is pertinent to this thread, I will post some highlights. There are plenty of interesting points and comments made, so listen for yourself.
* Playfield will be made of wood and it can take sledge hammer without enduring damage.
* Deeproot will encounter the same manufacturing challenges as everyone else.
* There won't be any great initial awareness that the product is innovative. When you see all of their games and you open them up and see how they go together, you'll see the innovation more clearly. (oh brother).
* Customer may have options for playfield art, cabinet art and customization of the game.
* Robert is waiting to set game pricing until before launch. Won't price it at a discount. Robert maintains he will provide value, but not all at the Stern pro price.
* There may be three levels of every game released. Undefined what this means. (Robert implies that certain models with have more value and indicates more mechs or more software for a higher price and a version without that is lower cost). They will be pricing some games below market and some above market (I see Robert releasing models in all ranges between $4k - $15k).
* Robert says that he does not read Pinside anymore because it is too negative. "Pinside is a sewer" and any feedback is worthless and goes right in the trash. (He said this three times but I wonder why he can't get find any constructive feedback here. He is right that Pinside can be negative, but there is plenty of great observations and analysis from my armchair perspective. His comment is suspect since the stated reason for going to Houston was to get feedback).
* Deeproot has 21 games in design. 13 are 50% and the rest are 15%.
* All games will be different from one another in style, content, target demographic, skill level.
* Zombie Yeti's version of "artwork on Raza was a hack job".
* "Stern is weak".

#7692 6 months ago

With CGC on the cusp of announcing a game or two, American Pinball announcing a new game, Jersey Jack with GNR and possibly TMNT from Stern all looking to drop around the time of of TPF this year, Deeproot sure looks to be picking a pretty bad time to try to upend the market. Imagine if they would have hit their date a year ago...pretty much nothing was competing for the spotlight last year.

#7696 6 months ago
Quoted from dc2010:

Sure seems like it, I requested access to the VIP event, only to get an email stating only for Media...
Hell ive been supportive , and I'm a local Tech,
Really disappointing Deeproot!

Start a 5 minute podcast on TPN...now you're media!

1 week later
#7811 6 months ago

I'm more curious about what they will show for their manufacturing capability at launch. Between now and the last interview wasn't very much time to go from zero manufacturing to a line that is ready to produce pinball machines within so many weeks from launch. Especially if they are making most of the parts in house.

#7815 6 months ago

Robert finally sounds like he is starting to get it...no jabs at any other manufacturers or community members, and a little bit of humble pie for dessert. Hopefully he continues to follow this path from here on out.

"Launch won’t be the unrealistic daydreams I’ve had a million times since 2015, but it also won’t be disappointing either. Being humbled the hard way as you finally have to switch from tinkering to implementing has definitely given me some gray hairs and taken a few years off my life."

#7850 6 months ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

But if we did people would find a way to complain about that also.....

Heard its cheese and whiiiiine.

#7860 6 months ago
Quoted from Tranquilize:

Stern is now a lifestyle brand; therefore, we know their refreshments will be craft beer that goes with the perfect lumberjack beard and flat brimmed cap, sticker and all.

And you have to beat this guy before you are allowed to leave.

FB_IMG_1583799576035 (resized).jpg
#7862 6 months ago

With AP supposedly cutting prices on game #3 and Jack cutting the price of Wonka SE last year, I think pricing is going to be very crucial for Deeproot. I think going at it with a emphasis on "value for the money" as opposed to hitting a competitive price point could be a bad move for a new company banking on volume in the currently over saturated pinball market.

#7865 6 months ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Has it really taken the other 20 pinball companies this long to figure out that a "pro" level commercial pinball machine at around $5,500 is what people want?
It's not like Stern has made a secret of this. It's their bread and butter!

Actually, I want Stern Pro machines for about $4200, but I digress

Your biggest market segment is the cheapest trim level of game. If you can figure out how to make profit on the game at that price level, you instantly have a competitive advantage over everyone not named Stern.

#7991 6 months ago

Massive Punny Factory and China Zombies preorders scared them out of doing it.

1 week later
#8043 6 months ago

I have a feeling the new Heist game by p3 is going to be far more innovative than anything Deeproot was going to release anyway. And it sounds like Dennis Nordman is no longer with the company? Kaneda heavily hinted he moved over to CGC?? Dennis is like the town bike...everyone in the biz has had a ride on him now.

1 week later
#8107 5 months ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

Absolutely, with a rock solid theme and a proven track record following. Plus there was no world fears and they had a genius sell all up front with deposit strategy which by unpredictable timing was a home run decision based on where we are today. Won’t speculate but my guess is if they unveiled the same strategy Today the result would likely be different.

Lets not sugar coat it here, you are understandably cheerleading this company because you stand to make money off their machines by making mods. The rest of us take the inflammatory statements Robert has made over the last two years as a sign of the poor character the leadership of this company has. Taking cheap shots at the competition, when you have not produced a single game, is not endearing to the community as a whole. Robert has thoroughly earned the reaction he gets around here. Remember the legal threat against Ben Heck for an absolutely inane comment?

#8161 5 months ago
Quoted from razorsedge:

Just a lame AF joke.

It wasn't a joke.

#8163 5 months ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

Uh... okay?[quoted image]

Maybe it would make more sense if you didn't have every other post ignored.

#8241 5 months ago
Quoted from romulusx:

Do they have a working production line?

If the item they are producing is dust bunnies? Perhaps!

#8274 5 months ago

Major positive in this interview is that there were no big foot-in-mouth moments, and Robert was very complimentary of others in the industry and even his own employees. Kinder, gentler Robert is a more likeable Robert. Definitely a positive step in the right direction. He's also paying his employees during the shutdown.

#8279 5 months ago
Quoted from Mr68:

Completely agree. Life has a way with beating us all down and its intelligent people that learn and adapt. I agree this was Robert's finest moment so far and I have altered my attitude towards him and Deeproot. Kaneda asked some difficult questions while being respectful and Robert answered them appropriately.
I really enjoyed the show.

Agreed...I can definitely get behind Deeproot more now that Robert has decided to be a more positive and less egotistical figurehead of the company.

2 weeks later
#8470 4 months ago

The company I work for had our web sites all crash yesterday also, and have yet to be restored. Much larger company than the sum of all the Deeproot operations. So I am off the conspiracy train on this one.

2 months later
#8703 83 days ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Delayed delivery to September due to Covid and interrupted supply chains

Next will be delayed delivery until TPF 2021 due to second wave of COVID in the fall.

1 week later
#8741 73 days ago
Quoted from VDrums2112:

If Dennis Nordman ever quits, there's your sign that DeepRoot is in deep shit because that's the red flag that EVERYONE missed with the whole Heighway Shit Show.

This aged well from two years ago. Post #822 in this thread.

1 week later
#8788 63 days ago

Pretty crazy that Suncoast pinball managed to make more machines than Deeproot without spending tens of millions of dollars. Net outcome appears to be the same.

#8808 58 days ago
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:

This. People need work. Texas isn’t shut down, there isn’t a better time to find Labor at low cost in recent memory

Not until the Federal unemployment bonus ends for good. Most cheap labor has figured out its better to wait it out at home. The temp worker market is barren right now. That ends this week if they do not renew it.

2 weeks later
#8902 39 days ago
Quoted from solarvalue:

Honestly, Deeproot would have been way better off either investing money in Multimorphic or making games for the P3 platform.

Robert rather smugly said he would sell the Deeproot catalog of innovations to any pinball manufacturer except p3. He said that ship sailed years ago...which makes me think Robert was already rejected by p3 in some way. Probably a smart move by Gerry if that was the case. I am really glad to see Heist doing well for them, it looks like a ton of fun.

#8907 38 days ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Don't say I didn't warn ya bro!
Anybody who passed up the chance when Deeproot was handing money out is basically out of their minds or glutton for punishment. I can't fathom just letting it ride at that point.

Pretty much compulsive gambling at this point. "Double or nuttin, kid!"

#8973 34 days ago

Robert already said RAZA will be a limited run, one and done to satisfy obligations. He said there are better games coming.

#9032 31 days ago
Quoted from Waxx:

People are tacitly encouraging the idea that Deeproot has to deliver on Zidware’s promises.
I’ve never mentioned anyone by name though so I could be talking about anyone.

I don't think anyone wants to see Deeproot fail. A lot of Pinsiders are extra hard on DR because Robert came in here guns a blazing initially and made some pretty outrageous claims and promises. He also was pretty outwardly disparaging of the competition. He has missed every deadline by months and even more than a year in some cases, and what has been shown so far is nowhere near the level of what was bragged about initially. You're darn right people are going to be skeptical and downright cynical at this point. But Robert has shown some change in his demeanor, as well as some humility. Robert did make good on the promise of paying off the affected Zidware customers who decided to take the cash option.

#9065 26 days ago
Quoted from benheck:

Speaking of Musk, pinball machines are indeed laughably primitive. "Innovations" like LCD screens and RGB inserts are like putting a Ring video doorbell on a 200 year old house. Doesn't change the fact it's 99% ancient.
So yeah, radical innovations are possible. But I doubt they're gonna come from a nut job like Jpop or a boss who seems to think art is all that matters.

There you go practicing law without a license again!

#9067 26 days ago
Quoted from benheck:

My true sin was giving the correct advice


#9099 24 days ago
Quoted from benheck:

Here's hoping the launch goes well!

JJP-Stern-Deeproot....its going to be a crowded cage match of new games this September! Someone please photoshop Uncle Gary diving off the ropes and bodyslamming Jack, while Robert has a folding chair in his hand attempting to finish the other two off. pleeeease?

#9245 19 days ago

Deepwho? Stern is back to eating everyone's lunch as usual. A lame teaser isn't going to cut it any more, guys.

#9281 18 days ago

I can buy a Stern JP for $5500 shipped to my door, play the snot out of it for 3 months and sell it for $5200. There are not many hobbies you can get into where you only lose 4% of your all-in cost in the short term. The "value per dollar" argument is gibberish.

1 week later
#9628 6 days ago
Quoted from Yoko2una:

Let's not say things we can't take back.

I think we are years from that happening.

#9681 5 days ago

Confirmed not to be Gremlins. I guessing one of: Goonies, BTTF, Top Gun or ET.

#9855 1 day ago
Quoted from razorsedge:

4 1/2 hours to go!!
[quoted image]
...and "O-N-E" ... Pmsl , you broke convention, what happened to "1"??
I thought you meant a Theme and actually wanted This!?? RotfL!

Lol, it's only 7AM Sunday in Robert-land...you may be waiting a while.

#9892 1 day ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

You didn‘t mishear but reality happened.

Screenshot_20200920-123733_Chrome (resized).jpg
#9954 1 day ago

I am just over here preparing to process all these new innovations coming tomorrow.

2uxh8u (resized).jpg
#10059 19 hours ago

Deeproot was only days from announcing in March. Then they cancelled due to COVID. Was it really COVID, or was COVID just a convenient excuse? Robert said his supply chain was disrupted, so that pushed back the reveal again when things got rolling earlier this summer. Well, if you are not even set up to manufacture yet at the end of September....well that earlier statement was a load of bullshit too.

So what really went on the last couple months? For a company that is still clinging to the "pinball is easy" saying as of a couple weeks ago....this seems awfully hard.

What happens to the folks who are owed machines? Are they going to modify the terms and give them THREE machines now? What a mess.

#10113 17 hours ago

Haha whoever had "Rick Rolled", you win!

#10180 16 hours ago

Robert says the launch is delayed, according to Kaneda.

#10188 16 hours ago
Quoted from Pahuffman:

Robert's entire existence is a delay. Literally nothing has been on time. I want deeproot to succeed, but I mean come on...

Apparently this is how he thinks he is going to "Stick it to Stern".

#10198 16 hours ago

Update: Delayed beyond today. LMAO!!!

#10214 16 hours ago

Only a week ago....the balls on this guy must be the size of beach balls, or this is just some elaborate con.

Screenshot_20200921-124702_Facebook (resized).jpg
#10293 15 hours ago

Robert, you literally put up a date for reveal on your web site and then proceeded to talk shit on your competitors all week while showing absolutely nothing...and now you backpedal and say you were only "hoping" to launch on Monday. In case nobody has told you yet today, you look like a horses ass. My guess is the 6 people in attendance gave Robert a hard dose of reality. I would not be at all surprised if the launch never happens at all after this.

#10315 15 hours ago

I am calling it now...Deeproot folds by October.

#10404 14 hours ago

There has to be one of these 6 people or a previous employee that can give everyone the lowdown anonymously somehow.

#10785 8 hours ago

Figured out where they got the design idea for the lock down bar.

Vacation_006Pyxurz-1024x720 (resized).jpg
#10874 25 minutes ago

Deeproot- Just put RAZA in a standard lower cab with the new backbox, learn some humility, and sell the damn game for less than a Stern Pro. If you were able to sell a version of that "family truckster" inspired apron for $5k, you can sell a standard cab machine for even less.

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