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(Topic ID: 203700)

deeproot Pinball thread

By pin2d

2 years ago

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Topic index (key posts)

15 key posts have been marked in this topic, showing the first 10 items.

Display key post list sorted by: Post date | Keypost summary | User name

Post #111 Firsthand information from the Magic Girl programmer. Posted by applejuice (2 years ago)

Post #3026 RAZA promotional video Posted by vireland (1 year ago)

Post #5771 First RAZA gameplay video Posted by ZMeny (11 months ago)

Post #5874 RAZA video with more audible game sounds Posted by zaphX (11 months ago)

Post #5926 First RAZA video with successful ramp completion Posted by zaphX (11 months ago)

Post #5967 Another RAZA gameplay video Posted by flynnibus (11 months ago)

Post #6050 Closeup pictures of key playfield features Posted by Potatoloco (11 months ago)

Post #6133 Video of display animations Posted by LateCenturyMods (11 months ago)

Post #6329 Summary of Robert Mueller's interview Posted by jeffspinballpalace (11 months ago)

Post #6724 RAZA Gameplay video Posted by DS_Nadine (10 months ago)

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#35 2 years ago

October 21st, 2017... Robert Mueller and Jeremy Packer (Zombie Yeti) speak for the first time....

Curious if their first words were JPOOP and Bad. Looking forward to your interview.

Questions for deeproot: A complaint of RAZA was that it appeared to borrow elements that were not in public domain, are there any licensing or copyright issues for these game?

Also, What makes them think they will be successful where many others have failed?

Finally, what is their approach to implementing graphics for the LCD screen(s)?

#38 2 years ago

Can they build me a Tesla for the price of a Hyundai?

#130 2 years ago
Quoted from applejuice:

I have only just seen this on the TWIP site (yes i find out this type of thing second hand it seems on a public website....) , and to say the very least am quite shocked to be honest. I have no idea where they've got the 100k figure from, or why the tone is so aggressive???
I was contracted for over 2 years from August 2012 to August 2014 (if memory serves) but i started in June 2012 and i pulled the plug in May 2014 after being 3 months behind on invoice payments. I had 4 visits to Chicago during that time. My contract had a 2 year gag clause in it which i upheld and I even returned all my prototype assets in return for John paying up on the 3 months left which he never did of course.
This type of blatant lie and random statements is just really bizarre. All i've ever wanted was to be paid up in full for what i did and receive a game. That's it nothing more. I even created the site and helped out owners on my own time with issues as i want this game to be a good one. Feel like i've being kicked in the nackers again.... !!
If it comes to it, then i'll just publish all my invoices with the dates and amounts, as i still have all my audited records!

applejuice Deeproot never bothered to contact you to settle unpaid bills or to hire you for future improvements, and then goes on to spew that shit? What a bunch of Dishonest Losers.

Found a copy of Deeproot's Gameplay Book for Success in Business:

Setup company and name it after what you wanna do to your customers, but knowing that would never fly, decide to translate it into Dutch words - Deeproot. Nobody will figure that one out.

Hire Mega Business Destroyer - JPOP - a man proven to be toxic to anything he touches and put him in charge of designing your first four games.

Bring in staff with no pinball design or relavent manufacturing experience.

Don't pay vendors and suppliers.

Settle matters with art designer. We'll need that when we build our games.

Alienate software designer so that you will now have to find another to update code.

(Maybe illegally?) selling future MG game with software that was never paid for.

Develop plan to help make previous buyers whole, but exclude the most loyal achievers. Ones that got so fed up with John's lies and misdirection and getting a constant runaround, that they organized and sued JPOP's ass. But it is better to bury your head in the sand and wake up in the morning, than to lift your head up now and risk getting it chopped off.

Give public interview to pinball community and potential buyers where you demonstrate your own lack of knowledge and experience making pinballs, which everyone knows is hard!

Wish I was making this stuff up, but unfortunately is reality live.

#135 2 years ago

Cool TWIPY ratings. Can you add weekly results to your TWIP newsletter? I don't think anyone else can see them, so this would be a good way to show a running tally that changes as long as the votes come in. With Survey Monkey, survey could probably stay open through next year. I am already curious to see who's leading each category.

Would love another category added for - most incomplete software.

#149 2 years ago
Quoted from applejuice:

Please see the updated webpage from deeproot Tech. (Scroll to bottom of page). In summary, i would like to share the following statement :
Jim Askey (aka Applejuice or myPinballs) and deeproot Tech have reached an agreement transferring IP rights in and to Software for Zidware games to deeproot Tech for undisclosed consideration. Mr. Askey agrees to refrain from possessing, or performing any further work on, the Zidware software or related IP and shall promptly remove any online content regarding the same. Neither deeproot Tech nor Mr. Askey will be making any further comments about the agreement or any corresponding particulars.
Thank you all

Congrats applejuice glad you were able to resolve your differences. It didn't make practical or legal sense for Deeproot to continue designing MG, without having the basic software paid up. They'd be better off using your talents for future upgrades too, but at least today, one more supplier has been compensated and a major hurdle vanquished.

1 month later
#177 2 years ago

Fantastic coverage by TWIP. The interview and pics offer a rare peek inside deeproot's mindset and their war room. Hope they can pull this off, but the steps taken so far are counter intuitive.

Starting from a point of having never manufactured/sold a single pinball machine - hire toxic JPOP and build a pinball company based on all of his failed themes, hire enough staff to produce 4 or 5 pinball machines, lease a facility capable of producing 100 games a week (my guess), design manufacturing and accounting systems to run a pinball company in a new manner without real world testing, introduce a new type of system for programming rules and a/v and declare yourself the industry winner before completing the first design.

The favorable qualities that DR has going for it 1) it is well funded 2) they are demonstrating a focused vision of where they want to go and 3) they are moving at a quick pace. Managing of details, politics and luck all have a hand in deeproot's success. However they can only expect to have influence over one of those factors. It is execution, more so in pinball than many industries, that will determine their fate. There is a lot of work to be done!

#330 2 years ago

So we have these past and future JPOP titles planned to be deeprooted: Magic Girl (MG), Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland (RAZA), Alice in Wonderland (AIW), Fire and Brimstone (Bible Adventures) and Houdini. There is another one of his I'd actually like to see made. Can you guess which one is missing? Hint - it is not one of those mentioned.

#332 2 years ago

Yes that's it - KISS! Artwork was black ink on white background. Foamcore was complete and game was ready to be made into a whitewood.

#334 2 years ago

Anybody have the link to JPOP's seminar where he stands in front of a slide projected on wall listing games not made by JPOP? That one was a classic and I could use a good chuckle.

#339 2 years ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

Could add Houdini to that list as well. Even though deeproot claims they will be making it, Jpop's houdini has yet to be produced.

and ... Fire and Brimstone ... KISS .....

2 weeks later
#484 2 years ago
Quoted from DennisK:

Alright, the podcast episode just released, here is a link:
The interview is just after the introduction segment (jump ahead to 4:30 to get just before it starts), and runs a little over 50 minutes.

Listening now and you had me when you announced your broadcast is the only explicit one. Well that and after learning Dennis has a buttery smooth voice!

#486 2 years ago
Quoted from DennisK:

Sadly, I think you misheard (or if I said it wrong then I guess I have another correction to make!). We are not explicit, Flippin' and Mashing is (Brokentoken, Game Room Junkies, and us at EGP are clean-lyics... at least I think the others are). So if you want the f-bombs then Flippin' is what you want for mixed gaming! But if it helps Tony and I do swear a lot, just off-air.

Thanks for your preparation and great questions asked. I learned a bit and it actually peaked my curiosity. Any chance for a mini interview with follow up questions (and some strong language)? Ultimately we will have to wait to see what unfolds, but Robert remains vague about wtf makes their process so revolutionary, fast and cheap.

1) Will 5 days occur in 2018? 2) Is the ruleset for any game divided into selectable preprogrammed components? 3) are the pinball machines modular and/or swappable into a cabinet? 4) will layout be dependent on a screen embedded in playfield? 5) will games consist of a console and virtual reality glasses? 6) is there anyplace to read about their 30+ patent applications filed so far? 7) what kind of company doesn't care if potential customers are turned off by their hiring of JPOP and they don't mind losing sales?

#501 2 years ago
Quoted from BobLangelius:

Does there exist a material you can take a sledge hammer to and it will not leave a mark? Maybe my understanding of sledge hammers is flawed?
Maybe i'm just using the hammer wrong???
Maybe the material is water?
Things that make you go Hmmm...

My guess is the sledge hammer is metaphorical. Because why would you need to use one to test a pin? Normally you'd want the testing of switches, mechanisms and lighting to work flawlessly. Notice how that wasn't mentioned? Robert said he was choosing his words carefully so as not to be accused later of stating something incorrectly. But he wishes to maintain a veil over the new concept.

If the system implements vr and the patents help protect the rules, scoring, layout, sounds, lighting and formatting of data in virtual world, then one could use a virtual sledge hammer on it all day long. What the hammer probably means is that the game will be built to be robust.

Robert was kind enough to respond to my follow up questions above and that helped rule out some possibilities. My theory is if you need 30 new patents to build a pinball, then you are talking about deploying a totally different technology. My hunch that virtual reality plays a big part could explain some other clues given. You don't need a big factory if you are making simple playfields with a few mechanisms. You aren't concerned about parts shortages. New games will cost considerably less. A library of programmed modules can be implemented easily and development cycle time is shredded. Impossible real world conditions are no longer a limiting concern, allowing you to replicate Hans Solo freezing as an example effect. Robert could issue instructions to the team to create something extremely difficult and expect it in 30 days.

This hybrid vr pinball concept would help explain why JPOP was a needed hire. Customer base is expanded well beyond the walls of current pinball players, many of which may not be interested in this concept. While foregoing purchasing one, they still would be interested in playing it on location. JPOP had been working on and thinking about some kind of virtual pinball concept over the years. It wasn't given much attention in all the reporting to date and it never gained traction, but my guess is that Robert had some ideas on how to make it happen and JPOP will be helpful developing the tools and processes to be used. That also could explain why Robert said John's best days are ahead of him.

If it is a hybrid vr pinball, some pieces still don't make sense. Why do you need five days to explain it? Why are the only themes being initially pursued JPOP's original designs? Why is Deeproot offering to work a compromise to make Zidware customers whole?

#506 2 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

This is not deeproot, this is an image I found when i googled VR Pinball.

That seems a lot closer to what i think is planned. Maybe it incorporates a playfield in a cabinet instead of the simple console shown in your pic.

Also googled an image of the hammer testing phase - which is not Deeproot's, but I can't stop watching.


1 week later
#619 2 years ago
Quoted from Fulltilt:

Well I have to say I was very pleasantly surprised to receive a call from Deeproot today to tell me my Zidware claim was approved and I would be receiving paperwork soon in the mail. That's more positive communication than I have received in about 5 years.

Can you break down your deal? When were you originally in and for how much? Then how much do you owe, when and for what?

#627 2 years ago
Quoted from Fulltilt:

In on RAZA starting in 2/12. Paid up in full except the final payment.

I don't know specifics of this company's offer so let me state it like this and you correct it. So you paid in $5k with $5k still owed? And with new deal you will end up paying $5k balance for one game when it's ready?

1 week later
#663 2 years ago

The mind is now open!

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#677 2 years ago
Quoted from pinstor12:

You hit a pothole on accident, I assume. In your control, mostly.
I trusted jpop would deliver his product . Out of my control, mostly.
Two totally different things.

No sense grading your level of mistakes. Buying any game from JPOP was a HUGE gamble. Which would you rather be in the pic below?


Deeproot is a different company and they are offering to credit Zidware customers towards one of their games, once revealed. Whether that is a good deal is a matter for personal reflection.

#679 2 years ago
Quoted from LTG:

Wouldn't car insurance cover it ? Comprehensive ? Minus deductible.
LTG : )

You broke the story first Lloyd. Aurich is an illegal.

1 week later
#743 2 years ago
Quoted from Mr68:

Is it Day's or Daze?

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3 months later
#914 2 years ago

"For example, we assessed that the Hobbit COGS which we estimate to be around $6,750.00 would have cost us less than half of that for a similar build using our standard but with JJP’s specs. Even cheaper if we built it from scratch using our standard alone. It’s been a great teaching tool."

Not possible, Deeproot is not capturing all cost types. Owning and maintaining major equipment adds millions. Their concept requires a large inventory of parts and subassemblies, which requires millions. Labor also includes indirect labor, general overhead and taxes on direct labor, company taxes and insurance need to be addressed. Sales, warranty support, training, waste and breakage and downtime have to be added too. Once all are summed, there is no chance these amount to half of industry's cost to make.

The fixed costs should be spread over a short five year period, any longer and you are being too optimistic. Next 9 months is spent designing, setting up manufacturing, parts tooling. Assume DR sells 3K games a year for 4 years. Take all costs for five years and divide into 12k games. I am going to ballpark their need for funds at $24M and spread over 12k games is $2k of each machine. Add direct cost to manufacture each per game which is likely to approach $3k at least, and we are realistically looking at a total cost per game of $5k.

Add in the fact DR is bringing together new processes, new materials and new manufacturing while still designing 5+ new pins and hoping to complete everything together by 9 months and this causes inefficiencies, mistakes and expediting costs on everything. I'll add a conservative 25 % to cover that and my back of envelope estimate is these games will cost DR $6.25k. DP estimates their cost at half of JJP's $6.735k, when theirs is probably the same. My math may be squirrelly but no way no how can DR build a pinball machine for $3.25k. Unless it was VR like and therefore having little direct costs. One thing is certain ... Deeproot has deep pockets. ... that and they can spin a good yarn.

#940 2 years ago

Pinball manufacturers better not plan on selling more than 1k to 2k machines of any given title in this market. By March 2019 at TPF, there may be up to 5 titles available from DR. Stern will offer 3 - Maiden, a new title and with one more announced. AP will have 2 with Houdini and a second release. Spooky will have 2 with TNA and ACNC. JJP have 1 with POTC. Finally CC will have 2 - AFMr and MBr. 15 new in box games vying for buyers. What if every one of them is off the charts perfect? I have room for maybe 1 more pin, but with buyers having lots of choices, manufacturers are still splitting one small pie of customers buying one or more titles. Sure the market of buyers is growing, but not at a pace to sell 5k units of each new pin to. For that reason, most manufactures will be selling an average of 1k machines per release and up to 2k pins if title is really good. Stern will still be big dog with higher sales than ever, but its market share will drop from 90 to 75%.

#974 2 years ago

A resin playfield is a big innovation as it won't dimple and it lends itself to multiple surface types. They don't need to worry about whether 8 ply or 12 ply walnut is good enough and whether their source for blanks is consistent. A flat playfield could include an area with raised mounds and craters like the moon's surface.

Other possible design elements - use air to move the ball via suctioning instead of a vertical mounted magnet. I'd like to see magnets deployed in place of all coils, vuks, flippers and slingshots. Doing that and swapping arm and rollover switches with optos would kill their need for the common playfield parts used today. Ok maybe keep the flippers,but everything else has got to go. Poured material is probably easier to embed and attach wire forms and ramps to also. I hope they add a loop ramp and corkscrew ramp to their standard repertoire and that they raise playfield glass height to allow balls to be launched from end of pf to the other. Could we see a catapult launch the ball 50 inches? I'm serious, can we see a catapult launch the ball 50 inches and a magnet grab it, please?

All of these would combine to simplify DR's manufacturing process and Operators would see lower operating cost, minimum maintenance and games that work. But innovation costs more money than the traditional way to do things until you implement in volume. For that reason DR won't be producing many $3.5k games. But if their pins are fun and worth the cost, they can meet their objectives and maybe they will succeed. What other innovations could DR's pinball future hold?

#975 2 years ago

Some people are stupid


or just poor dumb bastards.

There's a few winners


and dreamers.


But some guys are nuts!

2 weeks later
#1032 2 years ago

I plan on entering deep root's giveaways and if no one wants to sign up for John's pin, I might win it.

#1039 2 years ago
Quoted from JodyG:

They never said they are giving free games, did they?

In twip interview Deeproot was said to be giving one of each designers pins away "for free". I think some of of the paid in full people get a Deeproot game in "exchange" for their financial loss.

1 week later
#1113 2 years ago
Quoted from bobukcat:

He who must not be named, like Voldemort but starts with a K and ends with an a.


#1117 2 years ago
Quoted from OnTheSnap:

This really_ comes across corny to me.
Lots of the smoke and mirrors from them is very off putting to me. I'd like to skip all this and just get to the product I can buy. Please.

Well mark your calendar for Sat, March 23, 2019 - the second day of TPF is the official 5th day of deeproot. Everything about the company and its offerings are revealed by this date. Two titles are guaranteed to be offered - RAZA and MG. Might be one or two others. AIW will not be available until a later date - it is probably nowhere near ready.

On a separate note This week in Pinball TWIP identifies original Houdini and Fire & Brimstone as confirmed themes, so I'll let you connect the dots on games #3 & #4 that we might also see. I'll point out that Robert Mueller was indignant about Stern stealing Godzilla from Charlie, but he doesn't see the hypocrisy in his producing Houdini, when AP is already successfully delivering a full featured Houdini. Go figure

Robert Mueller has said before he intends to be able to ship games within two weeks of ordering. He mentions testing out his manufacturing process and building some early games before the 5DoDR. As the end date is fixed, if they are running behind they may need to reduce what is shown. I think this translates back into showing 2 games in the worst case and up to 4 games if everything falls into place. I hope they don't mention any games that are not ready at that presentation.

#1127 2 years ago
Quoted from solarvalue:

Best quote of the interview:
"We're done with quad-assembly, we're doing octo-assembly now."

Amp it up.

#1139 2 years ago
Quoted from jonesjb:

Is Houdini the same design?

No totally different design. If DR wants to develop a magic themed pin, there is room for another, but market saturation might bite them in the ass. But when Josh was building Houdini he had to get a license so I can't see DR being able to pick the same license. Rethemed as David Copperfield or a David Blaine though, might breathe some fresh air into their design. Particularly challenging to building another Houdini pin are that his best known tricks are already captured by AP and the dialog and screens they provide are historically accurate and educational. Just doesn't make any sense to proceed on another Houdini. Time for DR to go in another direction on their magical pin, if they haven't already done so. :pullingarabbitoutofmyhat:

#1141 2 years ago

Well we've guessed 3 of the top 5 greatest magician already. Before you look, do you know he other two licenses?

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#1151 2 years ago
Quoted from snakesnsparklers:

Penn and Teller are the best!

Unsure why Penn and Teller wouldn't be lumped together nor why one has a better ranking? Haven't they performed together for years?

#1161 2 years ago

Anybody think DR should contract with Ben Heck to work with JPOP to redesign Houdini into Ben Heck's Hallucinogenic Lab Trip? It would be a hard sell to get Ben onboard given the impossible assignment. But if they worked together and brought back the same art style .... Wowza!

#1216 2 years ago
Quoted from ZNET:

The preorder price for an Emerald City LE WOZ was actually $6,500 back in about 2011, as I recall. Many enthusiasts deemed that price point to be outrageously high, even though the game was packed with endless high-end features. Oh. . .the good old days. . .

funny thing is, as stupid as it was to preorder WOZ from a new company on their first pinball, some took it further and paid in full to to get free shipping. In spite of the roller coaster ride, all received their games. So $6.5k delivered for nib WOZ and no sales tax. Boom! a when-pigs-fly success story with a jackpot at the end of the rainbow.

1 week later
#1347 2 years ago
Quoted from jimjim66:

I meant concept, not necessarily copying Pinball 2000.

I agree, they are a very ahead of their time company.
I think Heighway was on track to do this too. They were able to do it for under 4 minutes.

I like watching that video in a loop. One of the few that think HP's swappable concept was the right way to go. Not having spare parts to plug in was its downfall. That was exasperated by extreme underfunding of the company. Wishing someone else would give it a go.

#1374 2 years ago

I hear about pinball people going there. Well known designers, engineers etc too. But these underlings are not seen or heard from again. Add to that we've seen no products. What is really going on inside that building?? Not even day 1 of deeproot. Is Robert washing brains and reprogramming his believers?

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#1376 2 years ago
Quoted from o-din:

Their website is chock full of information for inquiring minds that would like to know.

hahahaha at first glance nada.

... but click on W and you enter another world. You gleen few tidbits like there are 31 members and their titles. deeproot is looking to bring on three more people per posted ads. I've learned nothing about what the company really does yet. Yeah you can even send in your resume if you would like an invite to join the club.

1 month later
#1488 2 years ago

Loved those exercise and jazzercise tapes in the 80's. Sweating to the oldies volume 3 rocked. Not sure I need a fancy pinball machine to deliver my exercise.

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1 week later
#1611 2 years ago

If it is not Predator or Jaws 3, I hope it is Bernie’s.

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#1642 2 years ago

Gottlieb’s Krull is finally going into production?

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#1686 2 years ago

Deeproot won’t have a game to show, so the seminar will be about Deeproot and their processes. It may prove interesting, but is nothing to get excited about. Their seminar at TPF in March will be the one to watch. That’s where they bring finished games

#1798 2 years ago

Going to be hard to beat 1980. 27 new titles from the Big 3. 8 pins by Williams, 10 by Bally and 9 by Stern.

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6 months later
#3352 1 year ago
Quoted from iceman44:

DR has to "deliver" games either in person or to a shipper by June 30th. 3 games are supposed to be presented for selection 30 days prior.
If "delivery" doesn't occur by June 30th then "customer" is entitled to compensation in the amount of the "cumulative deposit". Customer will have the option within 180 days from "Delivery date" to roll the credit forward by submitting the request in writing.
I'm just reading directly from the contract. Pretty simple.
Robert actually reached out to some people like myself to get the agreements in before May 31st, which i had forgotten about. And he didn't have to do that.

The way you described things there is no penalty for Deeproot being late. Either they return deposits or hold deposits at owner’s request for later pin. In this case the best play is to request your money back. Once money is in hand, consider using it to buy a game that physically exists - one from JJP, CGC, Spooky, AP or Stern.

My understanding of the Deeproot agreement is much different, although I am not a claimant. In addition to your money returned, you are entitled to one of the games. So the penalty was Deeproot losing your $4600 deposit while still providing you a game a few weeks following availability. It was their promise to deliver said product by said date and this penalty provided confidence to those claimants, many of whom then ponied up $4k to Deeproot.

I could be dead wrong about this point, but it seems like a question mark. I also recall the agreement was about ten pages long and it contained much jargon (I was thinking while reading that maybe I wasn’t smart enough to be a Deeproot customer). Do we know how many claims were received? Guess 100 claims @ $5k per pin is $.5M of deposits to be returned and a penalty of $.5M when those games are eventually built.

#3358 1 year ago
Quoted from iceman44:

That’s upon default of non delivery by June 30th. Within 60 days. Full cash refund
I prefer a pinball machine regardless of having to wait. I’ve gotta a lot of experience in waiting

What’s the line on the races today? I want a $3 trifecta ticket on what gets delivered first. You have production schedules, right? I’ll bet Alien fully redesigned and with B/W parts followed by Deeproot Pinball #1 followed by TBL shipping to EA’s - all crossing the line by Christmas 2019. I figure if the odds are 1 in a million, $3M ought to be enough to retire. On the other hand, I can afford to lose $3 and realize I am flushing money down the toilet at the onset.

#3368 1 year ago
Quoted from jellikit:

6. Star Wars topper receives final approval and begins delivery.

JJP has a few promising entries in today’s race.


8 WonkaHype Isreal

#3394 1 year ago

As long as we are reliving dreams ... did you buy many of the spare CV playfields that went for $25? That would have been a ridiculous return if you bought 10 and could sell each for $800 today. That’s 3200% or vaguely 100% annually for 32 years. If you were a stock broker, people would read your whispers

#3400 1 year ago
Quoted from DennisDodel:

No CV playfields but I did buy 12 each of Fire!, Space Station, and F-14 playfields that Roger Sharpe rescued from the trash and brought to one of the Expos. 10 bucks each. Still bundled in stacks of four as I remember. Then I won a raffle for 12 more playfields! Every friend and relative of mine had them hanging on their basement walls. At least until they started selling for 200+ bucks each. Then they started disappearing.
There were also stacks of translites for the above games plus Big Guns. They were about 2 bucks each I think. Also complete playfield plastics sets. Crazy times.

Had a chance to buy 10 CP playfields @$150 each a few years back and passed out of principle. $10 for a playfield is juicy my friend.

6 months later
#5586 11 months ago

While wanting to keep prices low, my guess is Robert will pick $5.5k. While $5k would be nice, a fully featured, high end pin will have a large bill of material, expect to pay $5.5k. Just below Stern’s pro. Goody bag includes a 30 lb sledge hammer, for testing playfields.

#5725 11 months ago

Reveal was a non-story. It shows a full size playfield and a layout without signature mechs. Everything is subject to change. Yawn ... wake me in June when dr has a final product to review and a price.

#5909 11 months ago
Quoted from Potatoloco:

Alright so I got to spend some time on it. I’d like to think I have a little skill to me as I won the state championship in Oklahoma and was ranked in the top 40 on the stern circuit for most of the season. These are my thoughts and my thoughts only, I don’t have a horse in this race and hope every pinball that comes out is successful.
The game is prototype for sure. I can’t speak for coding (very early stages) or artwork as I believe it’s not final. Many of the shots weren’t doing anything or were very buggy which was expected. What I can speak to is playfield design and how the shots were.
The right ramp has a feature with 3/4 of the middle of it missing completely. If you don’t hit this ramp solid, it won’t make it around the ramp without the speed. It’ll simply fall back to the playfield.
The skill shot can actually go to the outlane, similar to Congo. The kickback then sent it back up to an area that is like a “snake feed” that goes back to the playfield.
There is a magna save. It’s more similar to Pharaoh’s magna save and the button is on the right side of the cabinet. It’s in such a place that you won’t accidentally hit it.
One of the main multiball features is started by hitting a roving target in the back. It was supposed to spell zombie and then start a multiball we believe, but the software never allowed for that feature to start.
Alright so, how does it shoot? Honestly after about 20 minutes, I went from being really excited to play it to an uh-oh feeling. The game plays very slow.
The orbits were moderate to hit. The shots seemed earlier on the flippers than expected. Both shots seemed to feed back to the opposite flipper, though it hung up a couple of times.
The ramps were another story. We kept count. I was 0 for 12 getting the ball successfully up the ride the coasters ramp (right ramp). Not 0 for 12 misses, that’s how many rejects I had from a trap. Either the flippers weren’t strong enough or that shot is only an on the fly shot. Across 4 players we were 0 for 20. I’ll try the other pin today and see if that was just a fluke.
The dare devil cycle shot was reject city. We’d get clean hits, the bottom would kinda lift up and the ball would just come back to the flippers. Think of the Death Star shot on Star Wars, but without the speed and it being closer to you.
The atomic shop shot reminded me of the orb shot on GOTG. It was a fairly safe return. I think a ball was supposed to lock behind it, but when I hit it nothing happened.
The spinning Oozie shot really killed any flow of the game for me. The ball seemed to spend more time being deflected off of it and trickle back to flippers. We hit it a few times to spin it, but the shot itself wasn’t satisfying and seemed to be more of a flow killer.
I’m going to play it some more today and try out the other prototype they brought. I’ll probably have some more thoughts on it later today. As of right now I’m underwhelmed by the gameplay itself. Compared to JP and Wonka on shot flow or just design, it’s not in the same ball park. If you love these games, then I’d probably advised to dial down expectations when stepping up to RAZA. Shots on this aren’t necessarily tight as it is that the geometry just makes the game play ok. When you do brick a shot (and it’ll happen more often then not) it didn’t feel like you were going to be punished for it.
I’m sure the entire package (art/sound) will come together come March. I wish Deeproot the best and hope they can back up everything that has been touted for the past couple of years. I really want my expectations to be matched and for this to be a kick ass pin. At this point though, with how it actually plays, it was underwhelming.

Thanks for your detailed analysis and impressions. Your review of RAZA reminds me of playing WOZ prototype with no code thru it’s development into a full production game with basic code, thru today where it is maybe #1 code. The game always shot clunky, but you felt there was potential for greatness with programming. It finished a clunky masterpiece, that I don’t like to shoot. Maybe dr will take the RAZA impressions received to heart, and change some of the geometry. That would be a win / win for everybody.

#5920 11 months ago

Robert takes a celebratory lap around Houston Arcade Expo’s parking lot before driving back to deeprofot’s lab. Six months of work until Spring, and Robert will emerge with a completed game or will see his shadow and be spooked underground for six more months.


#6240 11 months ago
Quoted from razorsedge:

Well I couldn't help but have a bit of a play with what could possibly be added without really changing the layout, and considering some things said about the code:
Steven Bowden - TWIP interview:
"However, connected to this is an X-story “tower” (not revealing how large “X” is) of other, more focused activities to accomplish where you can go deeper into the story… . You can have lots of fun hanging out in the base areas of the Adventureland, but what could be at the top of this hypothetical tower?"
So I'm guessing this somehow would tie to a "Tower Mech", a physical location on the playfield, and the 4 inserts above flippers. Also something pretty Suss!! ... the Total lack of inserts right between the slings, perfectly sized for a display?. That "NED" is certainly going to need to be animated at least, and maybe some interactivity or additional mech as well.
Here's my theoretical "premium RAZA" by covering a pic in grafiti lol
[quoted image]

Pretty good mockup you've deduced so far and am reposting it as is. I suspect the ramp will incorporate a yet to be seen diverter mech allowing for player-controlled ball exit to left or right return ramps.

If dr builds it as you've drawn, puts in all additional planned enhancements and charges no more than $5k, I am 100% in. Robert's goal is to design and build high value-to-cost pinball machines. That would be enough to get me onboard the deeproot train. Choo Choo !!

#6322 11 months ago

Very good interview with Robert Mueller on Kaneda's podcast. This is Robert's final interview until launching in March 2020. I won't tease you with some of his claims but the interview is 118 min long and worth a listen.

#6329 11 months ago
Quoted from cait001:

can someone just give us a 2 paragraph summary?

As Robert Mueller's interview is pertinent to this thread, I will post some highlights. There are plenty of interesting points and comments made, so listen for yourself.

* Playfield will be made of wood and it can take sledge hammer without enduring damage.

* Deeproot will encounter the same manufacturing challenges as everyone else.

* There won't be any great initial awareness that the product is innovative. When you see all of their games and you open them up and see how they go together, you'll see the innovation more clearly. (oh brother).

* Customer may have options for playfield art, cabinet art and customization of the game.

* Robert is waiting to set game pricing until before launch. Won't price it at a discount. Robert maintains he will provide value, but not all at the Stern pro price.

* There may be three levels of every game released. Undefined what this means. (Robert implies that certain models with have more value and indicates more mechs or more software for a higher price and a version without that is lower cost). They will be pricing some games below market and some above market (I see Robert releasing models in all ranges between $4k - $15k).

* Robert says that he does not read Pinside anymore because it is too negative. "Pinside is a sewer" and any feedback is worthless and goes right in the trash. (He said this three times but I wonder why he can't get find any constructive feedback here. He is right that Pinside can be negative, but there is plenty of great observations and analysis from my armchair perspective. His comment is suspect since the stated reason for going to Houston was to get feedback).

* Deeproot has 21 games in design. 13 are 50% and the rest are 15%.

* All games will be different from one another in style, content, target demographic, skill level.

* Zombie Yeti's version of "artwork on Raza was a hack job".

* "Stern is weak".

#6347 11 months ago
Quoted from jlm33:

Thanks jeffspinballpalace for summarizing R. Mueller's interview !

All we need to know is how many are at 100%. How long did Jpop games remain at XX% ?

There was plenty of humor in the interview. Hackjob Yeti is my favorite artist.

Deep-root has shown they can design and build (2) prototype games of RAZA and that is big deal. Every story told about the pinball business is making pinballs is hard. Specifically, the physical manufacturing thru shipping. That part has yet to come, so as hard as Deeproot feels they have worked to get here, the road ahead is uphill and steeper.

Robert admitted his manufacturing will still occur in the real world and will face same challenges as any manufacturer. There is no magic pixie dust being proposed. I see little way dr could be more efficient than Stern,’who has armored itself over 60 years of making pinballs. If Robert allows small batches of games to be built on demand, that would be an innovation and better than Stern. Stern is so big that their run sizes are bigger and it takes them awhile to switchover between titles. The production schedule is more rigid. However Stern has control over their parts supplies and some over the demand side. When Stern get enough interest in a title (orders), they run more to meet demand. In that way they fine tune product mix.

#6396 11 months ago
Quoted from o-din:

Sure and Lorne Greene died back in the 1980s too. Why not do Bonanza as well. Anybody up for a HossLE?

I’m a Gunsmoke fan. Learned right from wrong by listening to Lawman Lucas McCain. We only know a few of Deeproot’s 13 titles. The others will by definition be a surprise. If one was Gunsmoke, I wouldn’t be surprised.
A4B5EE71-51F9-46DA-9DF5-E3FF98A9F243 (resized).jpeg

#6403 11 months ago


Winchester Model 1892 mode -> sharpshoot 12 targets in 5 seconds to live and fight another day.

#6424 11 months ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

This thread has taken an unsavory turn!
Odin wants every thread to be That 70s thread!

That might just work.

#6513 11 months ago

Of course Pinside is a target customer for Deeproot and we are the biggest organized pinball group. Pinsiders play pinball and buy pinball machines and Deeproot is planning to make and sell pinball machines, right? Robert wants educated customers who see value and Pinside is already tuned into looking for features and mechs. WTF is Robert thinking?

#6612 11 months ago
Quoted from Richthofen:

That's the deeproot fund. It's a different LLC than the deeproot pinball company. It's unclear how Deeproot pinball is operating, whether it has access to monies from the sales of equity in the deeproot fund.
Says the fund is backed by life insurance policies "and affiliates". No idea if a pinball machine company is considered an affiliate.

Theory A -

If Deeproot’s burn rate is $750k per month and as they missed Expo 18, let’s say they are 18 mo behind schedule. Deeproot will have spent $13 million more than expected if RAZA is ready in March 20. If they had raised $6M in a public offering, Robert would need to be dipping into some of his personal money to keep afloat. Maybe that’s what he meant. Shareholders? Ha their money is gone. It is now Robert’s money funding the pinball division and that is why he said his money.

#6668 11 months ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

I’ll PayPal $2 to anybody who actually read all of that.
Honor system!!!

CrazyLevi challenges a grasshopper to peel $2 from his soles or “face” the consequences.

#6712 11 months ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

So, anyone interrested in Deeproot is advised to ignore this thread until march 2020.
Nothing to see here.

Depends. If you came for information about Deeproot, come back in March 2020. But if you are here to get deeprooted or if you came for rumor, drama, speculation or if have a conspiracy theory, welcome home.

#6797 10 months ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Doesn’t DR actually owe a lot of people games?
And what does “we’ll see what happens” mean? I hear that one a lot lately.

How many people have paid for games, any guesses?

Weren’t there about 120ish RAZA’s purchased? Many had to pay in more but not all customers qualified. Most did so there are maybe 100 games in question. Some opted for refunds after the imposed deadline passed, so maybe 75 games are owed. If games sell for $5.5k, they have a $400k liability to Zidware customers coming from $38 million of equity raised. I’d consider that a minimal risk for Deeproot.

1 month later
#7178 9 months ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

Financial talk aside our Deeproot playfield arrived today and I must say it is refreshing to see pinball art like this alive and well. Really is rather beautiful in person. Have not had a chance to play the game yet but Very much looking forward to it!![quoted image]

That's a beauty all right. Have you tried hitting it with a sledge hammer yet? Maybe follow that up with the old jack hammer slammer. I heard it was indestructible.

1 month later
#7512 8 months ago

How many are still on board to receive their paid in full RAZA? Guessing about 50 people, maybe as high as 100? Those folks have a vested interest in seeing Deeproot succeed. Everyone else is in a wait and see mode. Show us something that wows us and we may get excited.

#7545 8 months ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

Noone wants swappable playfields.

If rumors prove true, he will be getting what he wished for.

4 weeks later
#7997 7 months ago
Quoted from pipes:

Wondering if the Deeproot launch will happen in my kids lifetime.

There aren’t many certainties in life, but by the time they release their 13th pin, you will have slapped your forehead and proclaimed deeproot to be a revolutionary pinball company.

2 weeks later
#8082 6 months ago
Quoted from NoQuarters:

Maybe Deeproot should explore making ventilators.

Any company that already makes small assemblies or electrical devices could quickly receive electrical approval and begin making ventilators. All of them pulling together could supply unmet need for ventilators. Any company that already sews clothing, drapery or costumes could supply unmet need by switching to face masks and gowns. Any company that already makes kitchen items, does 3d printing or manufactures consumer products could supply unmet need for gloves. Instead we are talking to GM?

I think deeproot would be excellently suited for and may even up to the challenge of building ventilators. Some of today's large companies began as early suppliers of goods during the war. That may divert deeproot's attention towards bigger and better things. But if you were Robert - would you rather be remembered 1) as the guy who designed the world's finest pinball machine, which features an indestructible playfield, but whose company went bellyup in 2023, having made and sold less than 10k games or 2) as the guy who designed and built ventilators in a time of crisis and whose work saved tens of thousands of lives?

5 months later
#9733 33 days ago

Can’t wait, an IJ pin from dr will be great.

#9831 31 days ago

What’s the word @ dr? Reporters crawling all over HQ and no news or communication leaking, sux.

#9833 31 days ago
Quoted from Krupps4:

$3500? I’d be all over a RAZA for the price, but I also think it’s totally unrealistic.

Order it now for $5k delivered would scratch my sweet spot

#9872 31 days ago

This thread is on fire! We are all here, full of hope and expectations, and yet dr gives us nothing ??? It is going to be hard for RAZA to match the hype.

#9923 30 days ago

Octo Manufacturing ???

#10448 30 days ago

Deeproot gave a großer Schacht to the pinball community today, and they spent the afternoon brutally deeprooting her.


#10574 29 days ago

I was hoping the new cabinet came with 8 legs.

#10658 29 days ago
#11182 28 days ago

Reading through the twip update of dr, a number of things are appealing with the new cabinet and apron designs. Many of the original themes sound good too. One big take away for me was that the basic “arcade” model has nothing vertical above the cabinet. Don’t worry about the stilts, you won’t have them or the lighted fish tank translite to complain about.

#11360 28 days ago

I was hoping for a pinhelmet rather than the pinbar. Think and it happens. Whether a mindmeld or a total mindf&@k with no need to touch buttons or a screen. Sheesh, Star Trek has that figured out 30 years ago.

Prediction - Deeproot’s third reveal of RAZA will be a success in June 2021.

#11499 27 days ago
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:

I am still failing to see why this is any different at all from the P3 system? 2 screens, check. Menu system? Check. Online play and leader boards? Check. WTF? At least P3 games have a start button

I believe dr’s intent is for both displays to reflect the same info. For that reason, you should only count 1 screen for RAZA. The arcade model eliminates the backbox and the rear display anyways. The pinbar is a display AND a touchscreen and only access point for menu.

All Deeproot games will ship with one pinbar. If you buy the x or xtra models, you’ll get a duplicate display (slightly bigger but further away) under backbox. The pinbar can be removed and used elsewhere. When that happen, the source game is unplayable yet it will have zero displays.

#11512 27 days ago
Quoted from wrb1977:

Read the TWIP article again...the Arcade Edition HAS A BACKBOX!!!
It is a standard style backbox with hinges, the panoramic wrap, and a 24” display.
Where in the world did you come up with this???

As the standard head wasn’t pictured, but rather the x head was shown twice, I got that mixed up. If I had read the description for the arcade model, it would have cleared things up.

#12034 21 days ago

Now that deep root’s innovations have been identified and listed, I spent some time considering them. Many are fine and a few are good ideas too. Taken together, most pinball players would agree the Pinbar (tm) adds much capability and value. Is that enough to make me want to buy one? Well if the low end model is priced @ $5.5k like a Stern pro and it has the above value included, I’d be interested in trying one of the pins. If it is priced like a Stern prem @ $7.5k, which it is probably worth, I am not interested, as I want a Ferrari for Kia pricing. So if Robert Mueller gives us a premium at the price of a pro, I’d have to act. Maybe more features added, might increase what I’m willing to pay. What kinds of features you ask?

Pinscale (tm) - optional pad inside cabinet can be placed on the floor and when Player steps on it announces his weight. Can be adjusted to lock refridgerator when needed.

Pinpressure (tm) - optional arm cuff can be worn and Player’s blood pressure is announced. Can be adjusted to dial 411 at certain trigger levels.

Pinheart (tm) - optional chest band can be worn to periodically announce Player’s heart rate. Can be adjusted to cockblock all earned multiballs until Player has returned to their safe heart range.

Pindiabetes (tm) - Player can slam their hand down on corner of Pinbar (tm) to create a prick. Simply drain some blood on the Pinbar (tm) and it can be analyzed for blood sugar level. Immediately alerts Player if they need to eat a hotdog or ice cream sundae.

Pindating (tm) - optional profile can be created and a single status will actively shop that Player to 3.2 biillion women on earth.

Pinpuncher (tm) - optional boxing glove subassembly can be attached to the coin door and it will punch Player in the nuts based on certain score level triggers or for restarting a bad game.

Pinvacuum (tm) - optional air hose can be pulled from coin door and pump turned on to create a hand wand with major sucking action. Do you have something that needs to be cleaned? Well use the hose.

Pindongledisplaycase (tm) - with all this happening we are going to need a lot of dongles. Optional leather display case with see through glass window allows Player to see their dongles working while seeing them arranged in industrial fashion.

Pintread (tm) - optional roller assembly stores under pinball machine until needed. Place in front of pin, climb on and begin walking your way to a high score, one step at a time. Every mile earns one million points. Can be set to pay off in 1/10 mile increments.

Pinwrassler (tm) - optional subassembly stores inside pin and attaches to front of pin atop the glass. Purple Knight topper is added to top of pinball machine. Ever wanted to challenge a mechanical arm wrestling machine to a true test of manhood. Well now you can and the purple knight will look down and hurl insults while you sweat.

PinAli (tm) - optional arm attaches to top of backbox and places a punching bag to one side. Surprise your guests by hitting hard and scoring big with the ladies.

Pinsick - optional handsfree measure of Player’s temperature that will turn off pinball machine and schedule a covid test if you have a fever.

PinPinside (tm)(tm) - dictate a review and have it automatically uploaded to a Pinside club thread.

Pin2pay (tm) - use Pinbar (tm) to surf the web, pay bills electronically, check bank account balances, buy and sell stock, swap recipes, order dinner, research genealogy or just send the pinball technician a love note.

Pinbunny (tm) - allows Player to charge their iPhone, iPod and PC battery over WiFi.

Pinbookie (tm) - allows Player to place bets on the winner of pinball tournaments and local horse races or it will allow $1 wagers on multiplayer games.

Pinfortune (tm) - hands free dialing to Player’s choice among all the hottest tv psychics. Learn your fate as Thanos delivers his.

PinPocketPinball (tm) - optional wheels and axles stored inside pinball machine form a pair of pinskates. Small motor and gears inside pinball machine allow Player to drive his pin wherever he goes. Roadworthy and sidewalk approved, you can hitch the PinPocketPinball (th) to the back of your suv and take your pin anywhere you go. Link multiple PinPocketPinballs together and take your whole pinball collection with you.

#12329 18 days ago

Next up,

Redesign of RAZA is temporarily paused, while dr is now laser focused on developing cars for their employees to travel back and forth to work. Robert took inspiration from 1980’s vehicles and is building them as exact replica’s of the finest examples from this age with one difference. Each car comes with a Pinbar (tm) and the dash has been scooped out to allow docking. Robert explained, “each pinball designer has different needs so the community will notice there is much variety between our offered models. The cars are all in various stages of completion and we plan to (hope to but will probably postpone) show them off at TPF 2021. Automotive companies may choose to license our designs to produce these models once they see how swell they are. We will also be totally disrupting the auto industry. We want car renters to ask themselves, where’s the Pinbar (tm) in this here car you gave me?

As a bonus with fun exercise, try to match Deeproot’s pinball designers including Robert to a car model.


#12410 17 days ago

I’d like to see these in real life, so putting them in the game will hold sentimental value.

1 week later
#12686 10 days ago

Besides the need for Deeproot to skinny down their pc to lower build costs and the futility of withholding game production due to wanting to get it perfect the first time .... pfffft.

One thing that bugs me about dr design is you are encouraged to leave the game on all the time. This allows it to find and use the network. This is a major flaw for their sales to consumer market. I would not keep my game on for 24/7 just to be using it 1 hour per day. Waste of energy and money plus more maintenance. Do I want my pin’s pc to age faster by a factor of 23x when I get no benefit during the normally “off hours”? No I do not. It may work fine for locations who keep their pins turned on 16 to 24 hours per day. I see this requirement as misguided for home use.

Deeproot’s pinbar design is also a loser. It has way too many things it is trying to do. Seems Robert forgot the first rule of industrial design ... keep it simple, stupid. Deeproot needs to cut 70% of the advertised features on the pinbar until it can handle 5 or 6 features flawlessly. Pick the best and most important ones and focus on transforming the industry.

There is a longtime industry practice which says don’t release a pin with more than one new significant change. History shows when pinball companies try to get too far into the future, those pin always fail. People want different but can only embrace it in bite-size snackable pieces.

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