Alice in Wonderland
Zidware Pinball USA, 2013
Celts
Haggis, 2021
Magic Girl
Zidware Pinball USA, 2017
Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland
Zidware Pinball USA, 2012
Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland (Arcade Edition)
Deeproot, 2020
Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland (Xtra Edition)
Deeproot, 2020You're currently viewing posts by Pinsider jawjaw.
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Swappable pfs make zero sense for all reasons mentioned. I love the idea just like I love the idea of $3000 nib pins. Reality has proven it's a failed plan.
Perhaps this is just a modular plan. Imagine it being easy to take a pin apart easily. That would make it easy to move and service in some ways. Still, over complicating things that don't need to be doesn't seem smart.
Quoted from branlon8:I‘m rather surprised at all the negativity to the idea of swappable playfields. I guess nobody else has space problems in their game room.
So much of a pinball game would not have to be bought new - cabinet, power supply, speakers, electronic hardware (assuming no node boards), display, etc. Imagine having say four such cabinets and seven or eight playfields. Put in the playfield with a clever mechanism, plug in the game specific flash drive and off you go.
It‘s exactly what this hobby needs.
I disagree. The negatives have already been addressed and shown in reality. Game hardware (boards) become restrictive and cannot be updated with new games. Traditional cabinet artwork will not be possible. You will save some money but not that much. Populated pf's are heavy and cumbersome. You will need somewhere to store them safely and easy way to swap them. Not many people are physically able or will want to do this. When selling a pf, it will be impossible to demonstrate everything works. Even if you drop it in your cab to show it works, what happens when it does not work in another cab? It will add cost and complexity to something most people are not asking for. Most people just want a great game with awesome playfield features for a competitive cost. If this somehow makes pins cheaper or easy to maintained then that would be cool. On the surface it just looks like it adds complexity, costs, and more issues to deal with.
Love how you guys are painting pinball machines as some archaic relics built by chimpanzees. I can't help but noticed how difficult it is for manufactures to produce these games in a timely manner while being reliable and making a profit. You don't have to make everything a "smartphone" just for the sake of being high tech. Needing a bunch of high payed engineers to reinvent a basic cheap switch that works well doesn't sound like a good plan to me.
Quoted from Roostking:I dont care what company it is, save for Stern, if people buy pre-orders regardless of who is or isnt employed, they are fools.
I think we are all fools in this hobby. At least that's what most people must think when they see a room full of pins in our homes and learn how much they cost. People are passionate about pinball and wanted to support growth in the hobby back when there wasn't much new. If things worked out, it would of been a great investment like those that got BBB early. It was a gamble and they lost. I'm amazed that DP is covering those loses. Guess they figured it was worth the cost to avoid zidware legal problems down the road. I too wonder where all this money is coming from that is just flying out the window. Be cool to at least see one pin prototype to get an idea of what their pins will be like. At least some bigger tease than a little cartoon hidden on youtube.
Quoted from DennisDodel:$1300.00 NIB at the '98 Expo. At least 10 as I remember. I passed as did my son. Game was considered a dog at the time.
Wow, that's $2000 adjusted for inflation. I can't imagine passing up a decent nib game today for $2000.
Quoted from PinMonk:Because the CEO can't shut up about what he hasn't done.
Eventually all the talk and hype and putdowns of inferior existing tech and the companies that sell it are just that...talk. He's missed all his own deadlines, so a "quiet mode" is in order until he has something to SHOW.
And the pinside keyboard warriors telling that guy how to do his business isn't just talk? So what if they missed a deadline they imposed on themselves? They have not taken any preorders or any money. They owe us nothing. They talk big just like a lot of people here talk big. Why waste the energy getting all worked up? You plan on running off their reps from pinside just like all the rest? Would you feel better to hear nothing until a game is announced to the public? Pinside lives off this drama.
Game looks very promising to me. The screen looks fine to me. Guys complain if it's too big limiting backglass artwork or to square limiting how much info can be displayed. It really comes down to how it is used. No way this is priced below $5000. That's just ridiculous in today's market for a game built up from scratch. I bet pricing will be similar to AP. Somewhere between Stern pro and premium.
I played it a few times and not sure what to think. First, I think they should of waited for a more final pin before revealing. There are some positives such as gorgeous display and great pf artwork. It does feel like a 90s JPOP game whether that's good or gad. I mostly didn't like the sluggish flippers on either machine. That's the one thing that kills any game for me. Code did seem very primitive and buggy. Games had to be rebooted and tweaked constantly. However, both games did run for the entire weekend. I wouldn't form any opinions until Deeproot shows a game closer to production.
Quoted from pinlink:Funny to see all of these people that weren't at the show and have never played the game talking the most shit.
EVERYONE I talked to at the show loved the game. Including me. It was very fun and IT WAS JUST THE PROTOTYPE.
I personally hit the ramp many times, but here is something I haven't seen anyone mention. THE FLIPPER POWER WAS PURPOSELY DIALED DOWN!! Everyone is complaining about flipper strength and not able to hit the ramp as much as you'd like. Again, THE FLIPPER STRENGTH WAS TURNED DOWN!! Flipper strength is adjustable just like other modern pins.
This was verified by the DR staff that was there. Why? because the game IS A PROTOTYPE and as others have mentioned had many 3D printed parts that they did not want to risk breaking during the show. This has been done by other manufactures when debuting a prototype at shows as well. Nothing new here, folks. Whether you agree with that tactic or not, doesn't really matter.
The game was fun as hell and I never saw anyone having a bad time on it. Staff was awesome too. Very hopeful for Deeproot.
People can still have an opinion based on pics, videos, and comments from those that played it. I played it and found much to be critical of. Unless they were holding back, they have a long way to go to be competitive imo. Weak flippers was an instant turnoff for me. If that was done on purpose as well as disabling features then not sure what to say about that. IMO they should of showed up strong with games closer to production, flipping strong, and playing well. It was an opportunity to blow minds. Otherwise, what's the point? It's just a glass half full and you still have to wait and see what the game will be like since much of it will change. I wish Deeproot all the best but they were welcoming criticism coming out with games like that.
Quoted from Pinballer67:That was their reveal, whether they like it or not. Even if you are an established business, like Stern, you shouldn't test your machine in public (and I'm sure you'll never see Stern testing a machine in public). Let alone when you are a company who is releasing their first pinball ever, has insinuated that it will be superior to everything else out there...and everybody is watching.
We all know it's a prototype but first impressions are very important. I think most like myself were expecting something closer to production and not with so many unfinished features. It doesn't make sense to me to hold back and intentionally handicap yourself on your big reveal. Tough to overcome that with whatever they come up with later. I don't care about all the drama, hype, and accounting. Honestly, who cares what their payroll is or how much they spend on rent? It all comes down to what you can produce. I guess they are just not ready for a proper release which is why I think they should of waited.
Quoted from pinlink:THE FLIPPER POWER WAS TURNED DOWN. Not sure how many times it needs to be repeated.
Rumor was it was a prototype, too.
Quoted from vicjw66:I bought a first run and it sucked. And I couldn’t keep the lights on either. But most important was that JJP still hasn’t figured out how to make snappy flippers. And until they figure out how to make stern like snappy flippers, they will never compete with Stern.
JJP games always felt a bit soft and floaty to me. They play fine but prefer the way Stern games play for sure. I only played RAZA a handful of times but fair to say they flip similar to JJP. One game definitely had a weak flipper when I played it but otherwise they just didn't feel strong. You could still shoot things in the game except for that one ramp. It doesn't really matter, though. The production game could be vastly different with different flippers.
Quoted from zr11990:All this time and all this talk I have yet to see a pic of a pin. When and what are thes people supposed to be producing
Two examples were at the Houston show last November for people to play.
Quoted from flynnibus:Because they probably had to actually setup their manufacturing and get it primed during this disrupted period... because it wasn't ready (even tho they would have lead you to believe otherwise).
I think it's obvious they weren't ready to ship games on demand at TPF 2020... just reveal. And still needing to do everything beyond a reveal... during a pandemic... and strained supply chains.. I'm sure has been crippling.
But if they would have been ready BEFORE the pandemic like they were leading people to believe... that wouldn't have been an issue.
So it's either
1) They were ready to go and just turned everything off.. and have been sitting idle..
2) They were still setting up and had to stop... which means there was still lots of work to do.. which has been hard and slow during this period
3) They had everything running and just stopped. So restarting now would just be about picking up where you left off.
Place your bets... I still say it was #2 - They had sample game builds... but still no games going in boxes.
Weren't they talking about a whole new manufacturing process? I remember something about a different kind of playfield and other innovations. Maybe covid changed all that to where it was either too expensive now or not realistic. If they were indeed doing something innovative or new, they probably wouldn't want to announce it until it was ready for production.
From the surface, I think it looks pretty cool. If I saw this thing sitting in a room, I would definitely be interested in playing it. Pf looks good, backbox is funky cool, and apron display is interesting. Only obvious thing is the lockdown bar corners need to be rounded for comfort. Does looks expensive, though. No way this would be cheaper than a Stern pro.
Man, you guys are rough. I see a lot of potential. Pf looks great. Lift glass is great. Needed no but nice. Same for pinbar. It can add a lot to gameplay and just a nice feature. Maybe it is over engineered but better than the same old thing to me. Nobody knows prices or how these things play and everyone going into a fit. How can you even comment about some random future title without know one thing about it? B/W did some pretty strange themes including Diner which could easily be Food Truck. Pinball should be fun. You guys need to relax.
Is anything really needed in a pinball machine besides a wood plank, mono speaker, flippers, and some mechs? Point is that the added features of a nice display, glossy hand drawn art, hidef sound, painted trim, rgb lighting, cool toys, etc. all add to the experience of playing and ownership. JJP is celebrated for having these features and Stern criticized for having less. Pins are designed for entertainment after all and not utility like some toaster. I think DR is on the right path having unique features and new things to talk about.
Quoted from wesman:Crazy fucking company that in one day goes from massive expectations, to massive disappointment, to then just massive confusion.
Well, a lot of that is just pinside being pinside. A lot of people seem eager to call their failure and be the 'I told you' guy. I guess that's Jpop's stain on things.
Quoted from bitternerd:Is this a new leak?? Are you implying DR is working on a rectangular dildo!?!?! As long as they aren't taking preorder money I guess. Hope the touchscreen can handle a bit of abuse.
Too late I already patented it. Pindildo(TM). Slap them on the side of your pinbar for that nice organic round feel!
Quoted from jwilson:That’s why they’re so positive - they are unburdened by knowledge or experience.
Just keep that in mind.
That's a good one. It must be such a burden for pinsiders to have all that knowledge and be forced to complain about everything.
Quoted from SLAMT1LT:We all knew this day was coming, a touch screen on a pinball machine. Hardly innovative, just simply catching up with the surrounding world we now live in.
As a designer I could certainly have me some fun coming up with new ideas for it's use, but unless you have a highly-skilled penis, you will need to use one hand or the other to make all the swipy actions on the screen....meaning a disconnect from the game while you navigate the options, not a terribly good idea.
To be honest, the action button Stern came up with, that was a damn cool idea...because you can smack it, real hard and real quick. Gentely gliding your finger along a screen, just won't feel right, as there's no physical feedback.
And a QWERTY keyboard to enter your name? Just an excuse to leave 'comedy' names behind like 'Ivan Ardon 69'.
I just hope it doesn't add a tremendous amount of time and money to their budget, like JJP's ridiculous big TV and all it's nonsense. Keep it real, keep it pinball.
How do you assume the pinbar will be integral to gameplay? My assumption is that it will primarily be used to display game information such as timers, score, and mode instructions. No need to make it out to be some complicated thing where you have to type out a term paper while playing a game. Stern, Spooky, JJP, and Heighway have tried putting displays either mounted on the pf or part of the pf. I rather have it on the lockbar instead of on the pf taking up valuable real estate. Sure, you could go back to just a simple alpha-numeric display and call it done but nice to have more features.
Quoted from spinal:I will never buy any pinball machine that does not have a fixed cost for all features included. A subscription to my own physical property? This is going too far. Never never never in this lifetime.
Plenty said they would never pay more than $5000 or whatever amount for nib. $10k by Christmas is no longer a joke. Toppers went from laughable garbage ripoff to begging Stern to make more. It's coming. Soon all games will be connecting to the internet and the opportunity is there. Everyone is ripping deeproot but I think everyone will be doing this to some degree very soon.
Quoted from kermit24:Deeproot needs some of the Pinside base to survive. They need good PR / Marketing to sell us on the benefits of their product. Not looking good so far.
They are haphazard at best and a total shitshow at worst.
Pinside is not the entire pinball world. DR doesn't have to bow down before people here and answer every hyperventilating pinhead. Why not just let them announce their product and services when they are ready? No one seems to know much about the game or this paid service. Maybe the game is fun and the subscription does add some value. Maybe the whole thing sucks. Wonderful thing is we get to decide what we buy.
Quoted from RCA1:Am I seeing the purchase info correctly?
Are orders only being taken from Dec. 8 to Dec. 30?
Yeah, great plan to sell games only for a three week window between Thanksgiving and Christmas during a global pandemic.
Why not? It's still the holidays where people make lots of purchases. Both Stern and JJP seem to be doing great selling pins during the pandemic. Stern claims to be backlogged 5000 games and JJP sold all their GnR CE's almost instantly. I would say there is no better time to start selling a pin. I just don't see what the incentive is to preorder. I also don't get the expensive box. Who cares how much it costs? It's just an option for those that want it but what do you do with it once you get your game? Throw it away? Ship it back to DR for partial refund? I guess it would make an awesome kid fort but cheaper ways to accomplish that.
I don't think anyone has brought this up but what if they do deliver these pins? I assume production numbers will be very low if only sold this month. I also assume there are many people interested in buying but holding off because of the risk factor. Pins could skyrocket in value once the dust settles. Alien and TBL come to mind with similar circumstances.
Quoted from flynnibus:Did cosmic carnival skyrocket in value?
or Thunderbirds?
How many people were really willing to pay up for a magic girl just to say they have one?
People want Alien and TBL because they want the game... not because they are a rarity.
Rare alone doesn't make market value or desirability.
So you already know the game plays terrible and nobody will want one? Games like Alien and JJPPOTC became collectible once more people had a chance to play one. Demand was not enough initially because of different issues. Just saying same could happen here if RAZA is any fun to play.
I know everyone is really enjoying dumping on Deeproot. Just saying didn't JJP take years to get out their first game? It still takes them a long time to get any game out. Spooky still expects buyers to wait up to two years for their game. CGC took s long time to get out MM and years since last game. TBL and Alien same thing. New Alien nothing but delays. Stern may get a game out on time but may have to wait a long time for code updates.
Quoted from woodworker:I am tired of posting every time somebody walks into this thread and says "What's the big deal?" or "Why so negative?", so I went ahead and created a little "Starter Pack" for those that need to play catch up. Hope this helps! It has already been UL and CE certified so we're good to go!!!
Hope Zidware customers get their games.
[quoted image]
You guys don't have to beat me up like everyone else. I know about the hatred of jpop, counting cars in parking lot, and all the big talk. Pinball is easy, pinbar, octo manufacturing and all that. I have even seen and played the prototype. I am familiar. Starter pack is cute. Always fun to rub someone's failures in their face and tell them "I told you so". BTW - weather was a serious issue done here that caused a lot of problems. Not sure that is an excuse to delay for months but it was someone I have never seen in my lifetime living in this area.
Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:Robert has rubbed his own failures in the pinball community’s face. In the “sewer” if you will.
I'm aware of his big talk. But saying he started it sounds rather childish tbh. I just don't get all the hateful energy directed at bringing down DR day after day after day after day. Pretty sure everyone on pinside knows what's going on with DR or adult enough to figure it out.
Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:Do you remember Enron? The financial crash in 2008?
Naysayers here keep pointing out the red flags of the current situation.
The solution is ship the games. The red flags become less important when games are getting to the customers.
Of course I live in Houston. Enron was one of the best places you could work in the entire area. Are you saying Deeproot is cooking the books, ripping off investors, and the like? That's exactly my point. Everyone is ripping DR apart making wild accusations without a clue on what is really going on. Like, how do you know they don't have any plans for assembly? Oh right, parking lot car count. Of course there are red flags. What pinball startup didn't have red flags? It's always a risk buying the first game from a startup.
Quoted from Roostking:Great point ICE. They received
MY tax payer money. I didnt have an ax to grind before, but knowing they are clueless and taking MY money. Its hammer time, Eff dp. They deserve and will be bashed relentlessly.
People. WE are now investors in dr. How do you feel about that?
You should be upset at the people giving them your tax money not DR. Did you send back your stimulus checks? All manufacturers do get criticized but DR is a whole new level.
Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:That’s a very poor reading and interpretation of his post.
And “dozens of people” don’ work there. It’s probably around 3 these days. And we already know they don’t get paid, because that’s how RM rolls.
And the customers losing “thousands” lost that $$ to Jpop 8 years ago. Anyone who actually gave money to CheepFoot deserves what they get, including nothing.
And DeepRoot hasn’t provided any competition in the pinball market. In any form. Ever.
I think that about covers it.
They deserve to lose money? Wow. Ok. Don't think I am misinterpreting anything here. Pretty clear how you guys roll.
Quoted from TreyBo69:Pinball Brothers didn’t talk mad trash about their competition, didn’t make extraordinary claims about their games, and has started to ship some games (game?) since officially emerging on the scene a few months ago.
The money/games they morally owe to Heighway Alien buyers is a black eye, but there’s so much less to lambast them for relatively speaking.
Isn't Pinball Brothers still basically the same outfit that ripped people off under Heighway? I thought they were investors that took over way before people got screwed. One person trash talking and making "extraordinary" claims is not worse than ripping people off in the tune of thousands in my book. As long as you can produce a desirable game is all that matters in the end I guess.
Quoted from TreyBo69:To be clear, I said they both had moral responsibilities to address.
I don’t have a hard number on how much was lost to Zidware vs Heighway, but I’d love it if someone could make a good estimate
And again, PB is shipping stuff in a relatively timely fashion. That does matter. That’s the whole fudging point of being a pinball maker.
DR had two games at Houston show several years ago plus more recent prototypes that people played. PB has what, one game they shipped over for testing? Both have big question marks as far as production so I don't see how one is better than the other.
Is Zidware legally tied to DR? I thought DR did the whole good will thing of offering cash or discounts to victims just to avoid litigation headaches. It's not like Jpop filed bankruptcy with one company and then started another like PB.
Quoted from screaminr:It's amazing what Haggis has done , a few years ago Damian didn't even know about pinball and with a few guys they produced and delivered a game and have announced a new one .
With all the millions of dollars and industry experts , Deeproot hasn't delivered anything .
[quoted image]
What game did they produce?
Quoted from Rarehero:I should be skeptical given the history of boutiques & startups...but I'm getting more of a Spooky vibe from them vs. a Dutch or DR vibe, so I have no reason to doubt they'll deliver as promised until there's a good reason to. Having Planetary's blessing is a plus.
It's always a good vibe until it's not.
Quoted from adol75:3 years later mil
Nope they are just going to release the black hole version, the one that engulfed everyone's money.
Things are different now that they have actually taken customer money. I do find it hard to believe that their plan all along was to hire a bunch of people, develop this pin, collect a bit of money, and then do absolutely nothing. Still, strange they cannot hand build at least a few games to keep people from bailing out. If you could build 2-3 games a week, you would fulfill all orders in a year.
Quoted from littlecammi:Anyone who is in for just a 10% deposit will probably just wait it out.
No big money lost if DR goes belly up, and a very rare game if they come through.
Pretty sure everyone with money down is an adult that can make their own decisions on what to do with their money. You pretty much knew what you were in for when you put money down.
Quoted from TreyBo69:I think there are a few rich guys who clearly don’t give a fuck about losing several grand because they’re already spending like $30k a year in frivolous toys.
And then there are some normal hobbyists who can only afford a new game on occasion.
Most "normal" people cannot afford a pin let alone a $6000-$10000 nib pin.
Quoted from Zablon:Semantics. Pinball isn't the only expensive hobby. There are 1000's of expensive hobbies out there...or just people who spend thousands on smoking/alcohol etc. Has way more to do with priorities of what people are willing to spend money on.
No idea what you are on about. Point was we are all rich. Just because you only spend $8000 a year on expensive hobbies doesn't make you any different than a "dumb" rich guy spending 5x that.
Quoted from RobT:That's an awfully wide brush you are painting with.
Exactly. I never met anyone that loves pissing away money and doesn't care if they get ripped off.
Quoted from Mr68:A Haggis Pinball customer knocked on the door and was welcomed in and given a tour of the new facility.
Pinsider Screwloose and his son-in-law asked questions during the informal tour and were allowed to take pictures which he posted in the Haggis thread. You can read his own words but he seemed very impressed by what he saw and felt reassured about his money and machine quality.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/jaws-by-haggis-pinball/page/26#post-6351352
Quite a contrast to parking lot pictures and the stonewalling that Deeproot customers are forced to endure.
You could argue Haggis is running a better con with that logic. I didn't even knew Haggis existed until not long ago. Maybe I have not looked hard enough but I have not seen one of their games anywhere. Just talk and preorders. Sounds exactly like all the other startups where everyone is full of excitement and saying it's going to be different this time. Hope it works out for them and same for Deeproot.
Quoted from Ferret:Doesn’t hurt that the Haggis guys are incredibly friendly.
Not arguing anything against them. Being nice doesn't exactly make pinball production easier is all I'm saying. With all the failures and drama of pinball startups, it just surprises my how easily people jump on board the next one with things like a smile and large bay door.
Quoted from Ferret:No, it doesn't, but being nice DOES earn a lot of slack from buyers when things go wrong or get delayed... especially amongst the majority of folks here who are hobbyists looking to buy a cool toy and don't really "need" the game at a certain time.
Right. Anyone questioning the finances of Haggis or counting cars in the parking lot? That building looks expensive. If they indeed bought a bunch of expensive equipment and gone down the road of designed and building their own parts instead of buying off the shelf isn't that a little bit concerning? Doesn't sound all that different from the likes of Deeproot and Heighway starting out to me.
Quoted from DakotaMike:People aren't questioning Haggis' finances because they haven't been working on Fathom for several years without a released product. People aren't questioning their finances because Damian hasn't bragged about burning through 750k a month. People aren't questioning Haggis' finances because they haven't repeatedly failed to pay their employees on time.
So yeah, doesn't seem like an Apples to Apples comparison, does it?
Also, parts-wise it makes sense for Haggis to be as independent as possible since...stay with me now...they're located in Australia! Quite far from the major pinball parts-manufacturers and suppliers. Haggis' business plan involves making games for years, so they'll make their money back on that equipment in the long run, versus paying through the nose to get stuff shipped to Australia and having to deal with excessively long lead-times.
A lot can change in a few years, right? It sounds like some of you have money in Haggis. I don't so just making casual observations. Only thing that matters to me is what games are actually produced. It doesn't matter if it's been years or month. A preorder is still just a preorder.
I don't see how you can compare a startup to a company with library of games and years of experience. Didn't Spooky almost go under selling their first game? I remember it not being received very well and took a while to sell.
Quoted from Mr68:Spooky launched their company with $50,000 and they eventually sold 150 games which is 30 more than RAZA.
Yeah, your right. Not fair to compare the two company's.
Eventually. Point I was making was Spooky did not sell those 150 games overnight and it was not easy.
The whole Spooky comparison annoys me. Few if any were interested in Spooky in the beginning. You have to buy their pins based on fomo and whether you can flip for a profit. Little to do with actual gameplay. It's the same LE crap that everyone is doing but hard to argue with success. You can charge more and sell all games in one day. You can make people wait years to get a game and everyone loves it.
Quoted from benheck:AP picks terrible themes. Oktoberfest, where's the wish fulfillment? Anybody can go get drunk.... Who cares?
Hot Wheels... Your target demo has sports cars in their garage. They aren't 8 year old boys wishing they had a license.
Any game, movie etc needs to fulfill a fantasy.
Many kids, including myself, grew up loving those little cars. There are plenty of serious adult Hot Wheel collectors so not a bad theme at all. I have not seen one yet but looks like they did a good job with theme. Theme is not terribly important to me as long as you implement it well. However, I can see where some people are not into the whole toy theme and want something a little more serious.
Quoted from iceman44:But try selling a pin without an LCD now. Slash the price big time and see how it works out
Huge improvement from day one. Only regret is Stern didn’t quite have it ready for GB.
Exactly. It's mandatory and not even a debate. I look up at displays while playing and it's the first thing you see when looking at the game. Dmd's were better than basic displays, and lcd's better than dmd's period. You could also argue pinball doesn't need good artwork. Hiring professional artists is also expensive. You could get a 7 year old to draw out some things on the pf. C'mon.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:Of course there’s customers for a goonies
Machine, they found buyers for teenage mutant turtles, right?
Nostalgia is fun and cute but I gotta draw the line somewhere. Saw goonies for first time in 30 years during pandemic, and while it is quality filmmaking it’s DEFINITELY a kids movie. I’d be pretty embarrassed to have one in the game room.
I think it would be perfect theme for a startup. Good characters, villians, adventure, pirates, treasure, nostalgia. Plenty to work with. Maybe not the best theme but far from the worst. Original themes can be fun but no denying good themes sell way better.
Quoted from Mr68:Hey my friend, I'm gonna respectful disagree.
One of my many issues with Iceman is his over confident, bold statements. He always speaks in absolutes and you're a dummy if you disagree. Despite his long track record of failed predictions, bad decisions and skirting the truth, people become inspired by his rhetoric in the moment. He's very convincing.
I have no evidence of this but I wouldn't be surprised if some of the guys followed Iceman and stayed in on RAZA rather than take the refund.
So you are blaming Iceman for everything? By those standards, most of the people posting in this thread are responsible for the downfall of Deeproot. Everyone involved are adults capable of making their own decisions.
Quoted from Mr68:I didn't say that, that's you twisting my words and that is a huge stretch.
Anyway, here is a recent example of Iceman creating FOMO along with his usual bluster.
Creating FOMO? Now that's a stretch. Ice did not create any of this so c'mon. He is only reacting to the same info available to all. You are basically treating everyone that bought into DR as naive, idiotic, children that can't think for themselves. They are grown ass adults and fully responsible for how they wish to spend their money. I personally know one of those that put a deposit down and it's insulting.
Quoted from Mr68:I hope your friend and everyone else gets their money back.
It would be nice but my friend knew the risk. That's why he was okay with just a deposit. If full payment was expected up front, things would be different. That seems to be the attitude of most of the people. If these games did get built, it could of payed off.
Quoted from Mr68:I appreciate you posting that and it gets back to my comment #21451 that two people decided to twist my meaning into something I never intended.
My follow up to RobT and Jawjaw is this. I also have bought into Iceman's bullshit, even recently. I've been saying for a very long time now that I believe RAZA will be built and shipped. Well, I've been basing my opinion in a large part on Iceman's bold confident statements. He's been talking to Robert, Robert's lawyers and he lives in San Antonio where Deeproot is. And again, he speaks in such certain terms that he is very persuasive.
Even though I don't like or trust the man, I try to listen to everybody with an open mind. And I know Iceman is wrong way more often that not, but he got me too on this one. So I guess you two guys can included me in the stupid group that you created.
And that's why I posted, "I wouldn't be surprised if some of the guys followed Iceman and stayed in on RAZA rather than take the refund"
There is so much bs here I don't know how you can single one or two people out. You have people completely against jpop and deeproot cheering for their demise. Others are hoping for success and all kinds of people on the sidelines. Everyone is trying to be the "I told you so" guy and spout rumors as facts. Nobody knew how things will turn out and still don't. Of course hindsight is always 20/20.
I kind of agree that I don't it was 100% scam from the start but doesn't matter. What a disgrace. I don't know how people like RM can sleep at night. Don't think it helps for people to say I told you so and blame other pinsiders. Hopefully they can be some kind of resolution for investors that lost good money.
Quoted from Lermods:Really fascinating reading this thread. Went back just a year when discussion of the $750k/month burn rate was discussed around post 6604. The warning signs were there, but many refused to accept them. Hindsight of course is 20/20, but still, the math never really added up to me. Seems discussion of parts delays was just a red herring. What a terrible situation for just about everyone involved, hope people can recover some of their funds.
Strange thing to me was that they didn't take any money from customers until late last year. Before that, they were offering refunds for those ripped off by Zidware. They hired a lot of reputable talent and had working prototype games. I was there at the show and they had a whole bunch of people there servicing the game. This wasn't like one guy promising to build hundreds of games in his basement. It was obvious the whole thing was mismanaged but seems like they could of at least built a few games with all those people involved.
Quoted from thechakapakuni:I’ve never really understood criminals like this. He put the effort in (and then some) to start a pinball business (regardless of how pisspoor) and actually made a couple prototypes. The time & effort in cheating people could have been been used in legitimately raising funds to start Deeproot. Efforts in doing what he did illegally was much more effort than the legal efforts. I think this type of person gets a rush out of cheating the system and people. What a shame, hopefully justice is served here
That's what gets me. Seems like there are far easier ways to scam money than building pinball machines.
Quoted from flynnibus:Spend hundreds of hours creating vr experiences so the guy 30ft away doesn’t have to train 5 people for 30mins…. Such genius ideas can be had when you are spending someone else’s money.
For small simple manufacturing it does sound stupid. Still, it would be pretty funny to see octo number of people bumping around with big googles on their head trying to put together a pinball machine.
Quoted from Haymaker:I'm not very smart so....
If its any consolation I think most of us know the couple of names that really deserve some ridicule, but of course, they lost nothing. Still though, WHAT WERE YOU THINKING? You thought you had yourself a chance at a shiny rare game that you could show off and flaunt, it didn't matter the people who we knew were getting screwed even in the beginning as long as you got your item right? I'm glad you "only" lost 7k. Thats a lot less than what a lot of investors lost to obvious con man Robert Mueller, but you didn't seem to care then. Look, like I said, I don't want to see anyone lose money, but you got nobody but yourself to blame for such an obviously bad decision, and I hope you take a moment to reflect on the enabling you did now that we know more details.
PS- thank you though, for bringing yourself to light and being open about it. I mean that. Its a lot more noble than what a lot of others did.
Is it really necessary to pound in the "I told you so" and hurl insults? Pretty easy to do in hindsight and doubt you are batting 1000 in life. True, people knew there was a risk but they are not the ones at fault. Even if nobody bought in on the game, it would not have changed the fact that RM was ripping off investors for personal gain.
Quoted from ForceFlow:What else do you expect them to do when the company they were working for implodes spectacularly?
lol. Typically you start thinking about seeking other employment when you stop getting paid, the company goes bankrupt, the owner is being charged with list of crimes, and buildings locked up.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:Hey, so now that we got some actual Deep Rooters chiming in, I'd love to get a little background on the RAZA "reveal" at that Houston show. What struck me about that whole thing was how fuckin weird and off-brand it was.
Mueller had been talking shit and making outrageous promises for years...and the "reveal" is to just plunk this thing into a C-level amusement show with zero fanfare. Like...no fireworks...no hype video...no press release...no TWIP interview...no San Antonio Spur players on hand. Nothing.
Just kind of crapped it out to the show and let people show up and trash it online because they couldn't make the ramp.
What was the process behind that? Was it a wildcat strike that Mueller didn't know about, from frustrated Deep Rooters who just wanted to get things moving? It was just about the most undeeproot thing and I can't wrap my mind around it.
Also, was the PinBar (the most revolutionary innovation in the history of pinball) intended and in development at that time, or was the lackluster reception to the big RAZA reveal a motivating factor there, to provide the level of excitement and pizazz people expected out of Deep Root after all those years of hype?
C-level amusement show? C'mon. It's not like Houston is some hick small town in the middle of nowhere. It's close to San Antonio and good opportunity to get feedback from different players. Show was packed and I only got a chance to play them a few times. It didn't seem like they were ready for a big reveal as there were a handful of Deeproot employees very active working on the two games keeping them running. From what I remember, these were considered early prototypes with custom playfields and typical cab designs. Production games were going to have some fancy playfields, different cabs, new tech, etc. We all know how that worked out. Granted, I don't think it's a good idea to announce or show a game midway through development but not totally strange to do so. What's strange to me is that the games seem to be close to production. It only seemed to need a little work but they couldn't even hand build a few dozen games.
Quoted from Mr68:I no longer correct people when they ask me how its going with my Ping-Pong.
I had someone recently at work ask me if I play ping-pong. We have a ping-pong table at work but I never play it. They seemed a bit confused when I told them no and the whole thing was kind of weird. Some people know I own pins so maybe that's what they meant. I don't see how you can get those mixed up, though.
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