(Topic ID: 203700)

deeproot Pinball thread

By pin2d

2 years ago

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  • 6,839 posts
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  • Latest reply 1 hour ago by o-din
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Topic index (key posts)

9 key posts have been marked in this topic

Post #111 Firsthand information from the Magic Girl programmer. Posted by applejuice (2 years ago)

Post #3026 RAZA promotional video Posted by vireland (7 months ago)

Post #5771 First RAZA gameplay video Posted by ZMeny (21 days ago)

Post #5874 RAZA video with more audible game sounds Posted by zaphX (20 days ago)

Post #5926 First RAZA video with successful ramp completion Posted by zaphX (20 days ago)

Post #5967 Another RAZA gameplay video Posted by flynnibus (20 days ago)

Post #6050 Closeup pictures of key playfield features Posted by Potatoloco (19 days ago)

Post #6133 Video of display animations Posted by LateCenturyMods (18 days ago)

Post #6329 Summary of Robert Mueller's interview Posted by jeffspinballpalace (16 days ago)

Topic indices are generated from key posts and maintained by Pinside Editors. For more information, or to become an editor yourself read this post!

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#497 1 year ago
Quoted from solarvalue:

Great interview Dennis! Pretty interesting stuff, especially the part where Robert said that he thought the Multimorphic P3 wasn't innovative and that they would be taking things in a different direction. Looking forward to seeing what that looks like.

He's right when he said I wouldn't find his opinion insulting. I just found his opinion to be wrong. That said, innovations (and talk) mean nothing without execution and customers. Hopefully we continue executing and growing our customer base.

- Gerry

1 year later
#2623 8 months ago

Luckily for most of us, Atari and Magnavox didn't agree with the common opinion about swappable games expressed above. The world would be a very different place if they did. For pinball it makes less sense, since playfields are much larger than digital game cartridges/disks, but if a well-architected pinball platform was designed with that in mind from the start with more common/cabinet elements and smaller swappable elements, then it could/does make a lot of sense for a growing number of people. The industry is much bigger than just pinball enthusiasts who want a gameroom or house full of machines, and even many enthusiasts want more value for their money and floorspace.

- Gerry

#2633 8 months ago
Quoted from iceman44:

The problem with DR it would seem is that they don’t have years of runway like you had/have Gerry for people to adopt to whatever it is they are doing.
That’s the biggest risk. The smell of cash burn is not a good one

Having a lot of money to support the risks associated with innovation will certainly let them hit the ground running faster than we did. Lack of money made us implement our ideas with passion and personal investment. If they have half the passion that we did (and still do), then I'm sure they'll deliver some really cool things. Hopefully this seemingly well-funded company can break down more walls people seem to have around innovation in this industry. If they do, we all win. I personally wish them luck.

- Gerry

#2684 8 months ago
Quoted from jawjaw:

Game hardware (boards) become restrictive and cannot be updated with new games.

Only if the system is poorly designed.

Quoted from jawjaw:

Traditional cabinet artwork will not be possible.

Only if "traditional" means theme-specific that's permanently adhered to the cabinet.

Quoted from jawjaw:

You will save some money but not that much.

Only if "not that much" means 75% savings isn't enough.

Quoted from jawjaw:

Populated pf's are heavy and cumbersome.

Only if "pf's" means full-size playfields that are in pinball machines not properly designed for swappability.

The Heighway system definitely shouldn't be viewed as the way to design a pinball machine with swappable playfields. If it was, I'd agree with your conclusions. I actually use the same arguments when describing why that system didn't make sense. If DR is pursuing a system with full-size swappable playfields, I'll agree with your conclusions there too.

- Gerry

#2695 8 months ago
Quoted from Lamprey:

Are you saying the cabinet is 75% of the machine cost? Is it really that much?

Certainly not in a traditional machine. Our game kits so far are 25% or less of our full machine price, but we've designed our system to separate many more common elements from the game kits. The point is, if you evaluate traditional games for modularity / swappable games, you'll come to certain conclusions, but there are better ways to do things.

- Gerry

#2700 8 months ago
Quoted from Richthofen:

That's interesting to me, mostly because the expensive part of pinball machines these days are not the parts.

I'm curious to know how you drew that conclusion. It's quite wrong, at least for the majority of manufacturers, unless you're talking about inflated limited edition prices. There's a reason no new manufacturer has come in at a low price point. Passionate people might donate their time to get a company off the ground, but vendors don't donate production parts.

Quoted from Richthofen:

Selling separate playfields doesn't reduce the labor to write the game code, or create the artwork, or any of the other substantial overhead.

Agreed, and those costs gets paid from profit over COGs. For purely argument's sake, if profit on a machine is $1k, then a company could make the same amount of money to pay for game development by selling playfields with $1k profit, assuming they sell the same number of both.

- Gerry

#2703 8 months ago
Quoted from Richthofen:

I do not run a factory, so my take is purely conjecture. But I did do a playfield swap on a Taxi pinball machine. It took probably a hundred hours. I had plenty of help too. And the swap didn't have to build the harness.

Well, I DO run a pinball factory. I write the checks to our vendors, and I write the checks to our staff. I also designed the P-ROC control system that many MFGS are using, helped most of the new pinball companies get off the ground (in one way or another), architected the modular P3 pinball machine to address many of the points brought up in the last couple of pages of this thread, and personally built at least a handful of every sub-assembly and of every playfield that goes into our machines. I have a handle on the economics and the trade-offs with modular systems.

That said, it's content that sells. Make a compelling game that connects with a good portion of the community, and it'll sell regardless of the platform model. It should just sell for a much lower price and be a lot more manageable if it's a well-designed game kit instead of a full machine. That certainly doesn't mean people couldn't buy a full machine with every game they buy; they just wouldn't have to.

- Gerry

2 weeks later
#3051 7 months ago
Quoted from benheck:

Jeri Ellsworth could make a ball-tracking ASIC in her sleep.

OK - got to give you credit for that. It never occurred to me to multi-task in THAT fashion. I would have so much more energy!

- Gerry

#3085 7 months ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

For everybody else there's Lexy Lightspeed.

Correction... There's:
Lexy Lightspeed - Escape From Earth
Lexy Lightspeed - Secret Agent Showdown
Cosmic Cart Racing
Cannon Lagoon
Grand Slam Rally
Hoopin' It Up

I've heard very few people claim to not enjoy the innovations. On the contrary, the innovations and the industry-leading price per game are the things people seem to love the most. The biggest knocks on the P3 are the lack of popular theme and the need for better art design (which we hear and have taken big steps to improve).

Back on topic, DR is starting with one thing that we didn't start with... money. Good on them. They've leveraged that money to pull big teams of people together, and that seems to be a major reason why everybody's got so many expectations for their products. Whether or not they turn that into corporate success and fun playing pinball machines... we all wait to see.

- Gerry

#3089 7 months ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

As I wrote there is no P3 System anywhere in reach for me (that I know of at least) but from what I saw, what you managed to do with this/ develop (with no budget to speak of) is downright impossible to believe and I have the utmost respect and appreciation for that!

Thank you, sincerely.

- Gerry

3 months later
#4252 4 months ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

It’s a dumb idea that doesn’t work in pinball. People just don’t want swappable playfield and “kits.”

Quoted from Taxman:

I can't believe the swappable playfield is still a thing. 19 years ago Pin2k did this. I have known lots of people with an RFM and a SWEp1 playfield in the closet that will never go back in the cabinet. Then when they go to sell the game they have to try and make a deal to unload it all or be stuck with the PF.
Full Throttle is a decent game. But if Heighway ever shipped those Alien kits you'd never see FT again.
You will keep your favorite installed, or for Ops the one that makes the most coin.

Quoted from Fulltilt:

No thanks.
If that's the case, just go the "home game" route like Vacation America. That went over big too.

Dang, some of you really hold on to strong negative opinions based on implementations designed nearly 2 decades ago! I actually agree that P2K's implementation of playfield swappability wasn't good at all for consumers (it also wasn't designed for them). Heighway's implementation was pretty much identical and therefore also didn't make sense to me either. To conclude that playfield swappability is a bad thing because of two poor and nearly identical implementations, though, seems shortsighted. As I've argued before, if everybody thought the way you did, video game consoles would have been shunned, and one of the biggest consumer entertainment markets that's ever existed would have been DOA 45+ years ago. I know, I know... saying "video game console" in a pinball forum will turn some of you off too, but we can all learn a lot from the technical and economical progression of video game consoles.

To argue that a potentially large group of pinball-loving consumers (including a huge % of pinheads) aren't interested in saving floorspace, saving money, and having a variety of shot layouts and gameplay styles in the form of easily swappable is silly. A swappable system actually designed to make it easy and convenient to both store and swap playfields will succeed or fail largely based on size of marketing budget and how well people connect with the content.

P3 owners generally don't mind swapping their playfields daily or even hourly when they have guests over or want to play different games than the ones their kids enjoy. At the factory, we'll oftentimes change playfields in a machine 10-20 times a day for feature testing/debug. It takes under 60s and requires no tools, and a couple of playfields can easily rest under the machine or stack up nicely in a closet or corner. If you don't connect with the content, that's one thing. If you don't want to accept it as a good idea because of P2K or other poor attempts to implement a multi-game platform, that's an entirely different and closed-minded thing.
Further, I'll never understand some people's desire to try to sway the public that a well-reasoned project that people pour their heart and souls into developing ethically and economically responsibly is stupid, even regardless of their reasons.

Now whether deeproot is ethical and economically responsible remains to be seen, but a lot of people are clearly pouring their lives into it. So hopefully they are, and hopefully you won't dump on theirs or anybody else's efforts just because you didn't like another company's implementation.

- Gerry

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