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(Topic ID: 203700)

deeproot Pinball thread

By pin2d

6 years ago


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360 key posts have been marked in this topic, showing the first 10 items.

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Post #111 Firsthand information from the Magic Girl programmer. Posted by applejuice (6 years ago)

Post #3026 RAZA promotional video Posted by PinMonk (5 years ago)

Post #5771 First RAZA gameplay video Posted by ZMeny (4 years ago)

Post #5874 RAZA video with more audible game sounds Posted by zaphX (4 years ago)

Post #5926 First RAZA video with successful ramp completion Posted by zaphX (4 years ago)

Post #5967 Another RAZA gameplay video Posted by flynnibus (4 years ago)

Post #6050 Closeup pictures of key playfield features Posted by Potatoloco (4 years ago)

Post #6133 Video of display animations Posted by LateCenturyMods (4 years ago)

Post #6329 Summary of Robert Mueller's interview Posted by jeffspinballpalace (4 years ago)

Post #6724 RAZA Gameplay video Posted by DS_Nadine (4 years ago)

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#497 6 years ago
 
GSS

gstellenberg

Multimorphic

US Round Rock, TX

12y 119K 1,589 24 10

Quoted from solarvalue:

Great interview Dennis! Pretty interesting stuff, especially the part where Robert said that he thought the Multimorphic P3 wasn't innovative and that they would be taking things in a different direction. Looking forward to seeing what that looks like.

He's right when he said I wouldn't find his opinion insulting. I just found his opinion to be wrong. That said, innovations (and talk) mean nothing without execution and customers. Hopefully we continue executing and growing our customer base.

- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

1 year later
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#2623 5 years ago
 
GSS

gstellenberg

Multimorphic

US Round Rock, TX

12y 119K 1,589 24 10

Luckily for most of us, Atari and Magnavox didn't agree with the common opinion about swappable games expressed above. The world would be a very different place if they did. For pinball it makes less sense, since playfields are much larger than digital game cartridges/disks, but if a well-architected pinball platform was designed with that in mind from the start with more common/cabinet elements and smaller swappable elements, then it could/does make a lot of sense for a growing number of people. The industry is much bigger than just pinball enthusiasts who want a gameroom or house full of machines, and even many enthusiasts want more value for their money and floorspace.

- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

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#2633 5 years ago
 
GSS

gstellenberg

Multimorphic

US Round Rock, TX

12y 119K 1,589 24 10

Quoted from iceman44:

The problem with DR it would seem is that they don’t have years of runway like you had/have Gerry for people to adopt to whatever it is they are doing.
That’s the biggest risk. The smell of cash burn is not a good one

Having a lot of money to support the risks associated with innovation will certainly let them hit the ground running faster than we did. Lack of money made us implement our ideas with passion and personal investment. If they have half the passion that we did (and still do), then I'm sure they'll deliver some really cool things. Hopefully this seemingly well-funded company can break down more walls people seem to have around innovation in this industry. If they do, we all win. I personally wish them luck.

- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

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#2684 5 years ago
 
GSS

gstellenberg

Multimorphic

US Round Rock, TX

12y 119K 1,589 24 10

Quoted from jawjaw:

Game hardware (boards) become restrictive and cannot be updated with new games.

Only if the system is poorly designed.

Quoted from jawjaw:

Traditional cabinet artwork will not be possible.

Only if "traditional" means theme-specific that's permanently adhered to the cabinet.

Quoted from jawjaw:

You will save some money but not that much.

Only if "not that much" means 75% savings isn't enough.

Quoted from jawjaw:

Populated pf's are heavy and cumbersome.

Only if "pf's" means full-size playfields that are in pinball machines not properly designed for swappability.

The Heighway system definitely shouldn't be viewed as the way to design a pinball machine with swappable playfields. If it was, I'd agree with your conclusions. I actually use the same arguments when describing why that system didn't make sense. If DR is pursuing a system with full-size swappable playfields, I'll agree with your conclusions there too.

- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

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#2695 5 years ago
 
GSS

gstellenberg

Multimorphic

US Round Rock, TX

12y 119K 1,589 24 10

Quoted from Lamprey:

Are you saying the cabinet is 75% of the machine cost? Is it really that much?

Certainly not in a traditional machine. Our game kits so far are 25% or less of our full machine price, but we've designed our system to separate many more common elements from the game kits. The point is, if you evaluate traditional games for modularity / swappable games, you'll come to certain conclusions, but there are better ways to do things.

- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

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#2700 5 years ago
 
GSS

gstellenberg

Multimorphic

US Round Rock, TX

12y 119K 1,589 24 10

Quoted from Richthofen:

That's interesting to me, mostly because the expensive part of pinball machines these days are not the parts.

I'm curious to know how you drew that conclusion. It's quite wrong, at least for the majority of manufacturers, unless you're talking about inflated limited edition prices. There's a reason no new manufacturer has come in at a low price point. Passionate people might donate their time to get a company off the ground, but vendors don't donate production parts.

Quoted from Richthofen:

Selling separate playfields doesn't reduce the labor to write the game code, or create the artwork, or any of the other substantial overhead.

Agreed, and those costs gets paid from profit over COGs. For purely argument's sake, if profit on a machine is $1k, then a company could make the same amount of money to pay for game development by selling playfields with $1k profit, assuming they sell the same number of both.

- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

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#2703 5 years ago
 
GSS

gstellenberg

Multimorphic

US Round Rock, TX

12y 119K 1,589 24 10

Quoted from Richthofen:

I do not run a factory, so my take is purely conjecture. But I did do a playfield swap on a Taxi pinball machine. It took probably a hundred hours. I had plenty of help too. And the swap didn't have to build the harness.

Well, I DO run a pinball factory. I write the checks to our vendors, and I write the checks to our staff. I also designed the P-ROC control system that many MFGS are using, helped most of the new pinball companies get off the ground (in one way or another), architected the modular P3 pinball machine to address many of the points brought up in the last couple of pages of this thread, and personally built at least a handful of every sub-assembly and of every playfield that goes into our machines. I have a handle on the economics and the trade-offs with modular systems.

That said, it's content that sells. Make a compelling game that connects with a good portion of the community, and it'll sell regardless of the platform model. It should just sell for a much lower price and be a lot more manageable if it's a well-designed game kit instead of a full machine. That certainly doesn't mean people couldn't buy a full machine with every game they buy; they just wouldn't have to.

- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

2 weeks later
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#3051 5 years ago
 
GSS

gstellenberg

Multimorphic

US Round Rock, TX

12y 119K 1,589 24 10

Quoted from benheck:

Jeri Ellsworth could make a ball-tracking ASIC in her sleep.

OK - got to give you credit for that. It never occurred to me to multi-task in THAT fashion. I would have so much more energy!

- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

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#3085 5 years ago
 
GSS

gstellenberg

Multimorphic

US Round Rock, TX

12y 119K 1,589 24 10

Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Exactly.
For everybody else there's Lexy Lightspeed.

Correction... There's:
Lexy Lightspeed - Escape From Earth
Lexy Lightspeed - Secret Agent Showdown
Cosmic Cart Racing
Cannon Lagoon
Grand Slam Rally
Hoopin' It Up
ROCs
Barnyard
HeadsUp

I've heard very few people claim to not enjoy the innovations. On the contrary, the innovations and the industry-leading price per game are the things people seem to love the most. The biggest knocks on the P3 are the lack of popular theme and the need for better art design (which we hear and have taken big steps to improve).

Back on topic, DR is starting with one thing that we didn't start with... money. Good on them. They've leveraged that money to pull big teams of people together, and that seems to be a major reason why everybody's got so many expectations for their products. Whether or not they turn that into corporate success and fun playing pinball machines... we all wait to see.

- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

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#3089 5 years ago
 
GSS

gstellenberg

Multimorphic

US Round Rock, TX

12y 119K 1,589 24 10

Quoted from DS_Nadine:

As I wrote there is no P3 System anywhere in reach for me (that I know of at least) but from what I saw, what you managed to do with this/ develop (with no budget to speak of) is downright impossible to believe and I have the utmost respect and appreciation for that!

Thank you, sincerely.

- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

3 months later
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#4252 4 years ago
 
GSS

gstellenberg

Multimorphic

US Round Rock, TX

12y 119K 1,589 24 10

Quoted from CrazyLevi:

It’s a dumb idea that doesn’t work in pinball. People just don’t want swappable playfield and “kits.”

Quoted from Taxman:

I can't believe the swappable playfield is still a thing. 19 years ago Pin2k did this. I have known lots of people with an RFM and a SWEp1 playfield in the closet that will never go back in the cabinet. Then when they go to sell the game they have to try and make a deal to unload it all or be stuck with the PF.
Full Throttle is a decent game. But if Heighway ever shipped those Alien kits you'd never see FT again.
You will keep your favorite installed, or for Ops the one that makes the most coin.

Quoted from Fulltilt:

No thanks.
If that's the case, just go the "home game" route like Vacation America. That went over big too.

Dang, some of you really hold on to strong negative opinions based on implementations designed nearly 2 decades ago! I actually agree that P2K's implementation of playfield swappability wasn't good at all for consumers (it also wasn't designed for them). Heighway's implementation was pretty much identical and therefore also didn't make sense to me either. To conclude that playfield swappability is a bad thing because of two poor and nearly identical implementations, though, seems shortsighted. As I've argued before, if everybody thought the way you did, video game consoles would have been shunned, and one of the biggest consumer entertainment markets that's ever existed would have been DOA 45+ years ago. I know, I know... saying "video game console" in a pinball forum will turn some of you off too, but we can all learn a lot from the technical and economical progression of video game consoles.

To argue that a potentially large group of pinball-loving consumers (including a huge % of pinheads) aren't interested in saving floorspace, saving money, and having a variety of shot layouts and gameplay styles in the form of easily swappable is silly. A swappable system actually designed to make it easy and convenient to both store and swap playfields will succeed or fail largely based on size of marketing budget and how well people connect with the content.

P3 owners generally don't mind swapping their playfields daily or even hourly when they have guests over or want to play different games than the ones their kids enjoy. At the factory, we'll oftentimes change playfields in a machine 10-20 times a day for feature testing/debug. It takes under 60s and requires no tools, and a couple of playfields can easily rest under the machine or stack up nicely in a closet or corner. If you don't connect with the content, that's one thing. If you don't want to accept it as a good idea because of P2K or other poor attempts to implement a multi-game platform, that's an entirely different and closed-minded thing.
Further, I'll never understand some people's desire to try to sway the public that a well-reasoned project that people pour their heart and souls into developing ethically and economically responsibly is stupid, even regardless of their reasons.

Now whether deeproot is ethical and economically responsible remains to be seen, but a lot of people are clearly pouring their lives into it. So hopefully they are, and hopefully you won't dump on theirs or anybody else's efforts just because you didn't like another company's implementation.

- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

1 year later
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#11716 3 years ago
 
GSS

gstellenberg

Multimorphic

US Round Rock, TX

12y 119K 1,589 24 10

Quoted from flynnibus:

this digital connected and data enabled platform.

A good percentage of their marketing bullets are already implemented and deployed and being used by our customers today. There's not too much innovation in networking features, data collection/analysis, coding/configuration frameworks. The trick is always figuring out how best to use them to create a fun, enriched experience for those who want more than what traditional pinball gives them.

If somebody spends millions of dollars and years of dev time and delivers a fantastic, complete experience that's loved by everybody, I'll offer my congrats. I think it makes sense to get machines out, then enhance the ecosystem with more and more features as you learn what your customers connect with and what they don't, and then invest in what works and disregard what doesn't.

If anybody else has $30M they want to invest in an enriched pinball experience... yeesh... call me. Look what we've done with less than $1M.

- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

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#12102 3 years ago
 
GSS

gstellenberg

Multimorphic

US Round Rock, TX

12y 119K 1,589 24 10

Quoted from benheck:

The dumb thing about this if it were ANY OTHER PRODUCT IN THE WORLD it would just connect to your smart phone.

Very true. The architectural plumbing to pipe UI content back and forth to a phone is pretty simple.

- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

phone on p3 lockdown bar (resized).jpgphone on p3 lockdown bar (resized).jpg
1 month later
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#13796 3 years ago
 
GSS

gstellenberg

Multimorphic

US Round Rock, TX

12y 119K 1,589 24 10

Quoted from jsa:

"focus on what you do well"

That logic doesn't really apply much in this industry for some reason. I continue to be surprised at business decisions across the industry to spend literally millions of dollars and years of time to develop features that could be outsourced for mutual advantage. Not-Invented-Here, wanting to own the IP outright, valuing BOM cost unjustifiably above the other associated expenses, etc... MFGs overspend to develop inferior features, consumers lose, and potential partners lose. Pinball design, MFG, and tech feature dev are all very different things.

- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

1 week later
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#14016 3 years ago
 
GSS

gstellenberg

Multimorphic

US Round Rock, TX

12y 119K 1,589 24 10

Quoted from ufotofu:

>from Deeproot's website>
nearly all pinball manufacturers are experiencing supply chain disruptions and backlogs of orders primarily due to the order volume and the pandemic.

I can't and won't speak for other MFGs, but this was definitely not true in our case. We worked our butts off months in advance of the release of Heist, even as some of our overseas suppliers were shut down at the beginning of the pandemic, to ensure parts got to our factory in time to build and ship P3s and Heist playfields immediately upon release. We had playfields in customer hands the day of release and had a lot of playfields and machines ready to go home with customers at TPF (which was later cancelled).

Our backlog was entirely due to the volume of orders we received and the size of our assembly team. We successfully managed our supply chain throughout the pandemic.

If this is a pain point for other MFGs, please contact me. We have some really good relationships with quality vendors (we've paid our dues sifting through bad ones) and can leverage those relationships for mutual benefit.

- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

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#14159 3 years ago
 
GSS

gstellenberg

Multimorphic

US Round Rock, TX

12y 119K 1,589 24 10

According to FB, Robert and I are exactly the same age. Same birth day, same year. That's... weird.

- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

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#14162 3 years ago
 
GSS

gstellenberg

Multimorphic

US Round Rock, TX

12y 119K 1,589 24 10

Quoted from kermit24:

Gerry,
Is deeproot using the PROC platform?

I think the narrative would be different if they were. We've had the feature-rich hardware platform and toolchain implemented for years, and it's continually improving. Definitely would be a mutually beneficial arrangement.

Quoted from frolic:

Is he still pissed at you? Your enemy has your birthdate, that seems very... cosmic.

Not sure what you mean. I'm just not a sailor.

- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

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#14560 3 years ago
 
GSS

gstellenberg

Multimorphic

US Round Rock, TX

12y 119K 1,589 24 10

Production is what actually makes pinball hard. The rest of it, truth be told, is the fun stuff.

- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

2 weeks later
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#15028 3 years ago
 
GSS

gstellenberg

Multimorphic

US Round Rock, TX

12y 119K 1,589 24 10

Quoted from greenhornet:

in all likelihood, they reevaluated their various costs and concluded that these are the type of prices at which they must sell games in order to sustain profitability in light of their massive development/start up costs.

The low prices would be unsustainable even without massive startup and development costs. Add in various new technologies, and the price bumps even higher. I have a pretty good idea what it costs to manufacture pinball machines... stripped down ones, ones rich in traditional pinball features, and ones packed full of innovations.

The only way to get prices down much on complete machines is to increase volumes by a LOT, strip out features, or ship junk. Well... assuming you want to be profitable.

- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

2 months later
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#16666 3 years ago
 
GSS

gstellenberg

Multimorphic

US Round Rock, TX

12y 119K 1,589 24 10

Quoted from woodworker:

Ben is the only person in pinball history to design EVERY aspect of a pinball game. Including the fucking HARDWARE

Definitely not the only, but probably the most popular and well-known for it, at least inside the pinball community. I can think of a handful of others.

- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

4 weeks later
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#17555 3 years ago
 
GSS

gstellenberg

Multimorphic

US Round Rock, TX

12y 119K 1,589 24 10

Quoted from benheck:

Serial lighting works fine, just like nuclear power. As long as you do it right. We are using it on new system and haven't had any problems. We even tested it by wrapping strips around power tools, coils and extension cords.

LOL! I've said it before, and I'll say it once in this thread. If you're designing a production control system for a pinball machine and doing lighting entirely with serial LEDs under the playfield (or if you're an MFG building volume machines with that design), throw it out and start again. Seriously, throw it away now. Empirical evidence on a few machines or lab setups is not engineering, and trusting it is a recipe for disaster. I suppose you can argue "it's fine if you do it right" with anything, and in this case, you're very likely to not do it right.

Trying to save money by doing all of your lighting serially below the playfield will fail in volume, and it'll cost you more in the long run, but if you want to try it, you can easily do so with our boards. Each of our PD-LED boards can control 682 RGB LEDs, either serially (all in one chain or up to six chains) or with both serial and parallel LEDs (and up to 12 servos too).

I have no idea why so many pinball companies continue to try to use shortcuts, reinvent the wheel, and ignore advice from people who know better. It ALWAYS costs more in the long run, but if you want to try it, you're still better off going with a P3-ROC, a couple of PD-16s, a few SW-16s, and that one PD-LED. Your volume pricing will likely be lower than doing it yourself or using a single board that tries to do everything, your (and your customers') long term maintenance costs will be significantly less, and your software implementation costs will also be easier and less expensive. I of course talked with RM about this, but unsurprisingly he went his own route, and one of many reasons why the machines are taking so long is probably the amount of churn on their control system and software infrastructure associated with it.

If anybody ever wants our help, just message me. When Spooky switched to our boards for ACNC, we had it swapped in and working on their prototype in 3 days. Spend time designing and building your games. Reinventing THAT wheel is one of the worst ideas imaginable for a new pinball company and continues to be the downfall of people who don't realize what they don't know.

- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

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#17558 3 years ago
 
GSS

gstellenberg

Multimorphic

US Round Rock, TX

12y 119K 1,589 24 10

Quoted from flynnibus:

I'm confused... you tell people to not use serial LEDs

I very specifically didn't say that. We use serial LEDs ourselves in many places. Just like Ben's nuclear power example, there are places to use them and places they should be avoided. There's absolutely nothing wrong with serial LEDs themselves. They're great and convenient devices... just not in areas where there's a lot of EM noise, like under a pinball playfield. If your control system only supports serial LEDs, then you're already in trouble.

- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

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#17567 3 years ago
 
GSS

gstellenberg

Multimorphic

US Round Rock, TX

12y 119K 1,589 24 10

Quoted from fastpinball:

Gerry, you really need to drop this argument. The bottom line on this is that if you know what you are doing with serial LEDs and you wire your game up properly, then you will be just fine. Period.

At least you've given yourself an out if somebody's lighting is glitchy or fails!

- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

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#17588 3 years ago
 
GSS

gstellenberg

Multimorphic

US Round Rock, TX

12y 119K 1,589 24 10

Quoted from benheck:

Gerry I can't help but think you like parallel LEDs because you get to sell a $70 driver board for every 28 RGB lights a customer needs.

Well we don't just sell the boards. We also use the PD-LEDs in the P3 and on P3 playfields. We use serial LEDs for the cabinet lighting, the CCR shot liners, and a few places on Heist, and we use parallel LEDs for all underplayfield lighting, both in the main platform and on playfield modules. If we sold a special parallel LED board for $5 and a special serial LED board for $100 (obviously these are unrealistic numbers), I'd still be giving the same advice and continuing to follow it myself. A few of us have also given a lot of advice to other companies that has cost us sales, and we've developed a lot of the tools and features many of our competitors are using, even some that aren't using our boards, and you know that. So to suggest I'm saying things specifically for financial gain is a bit disingenuous. Use our boards or somebody else's... that's up to every company and/or machine developer to decide, but using serial LEDs for your underplayfield inserts is a recipe for disaster. I've explained in detail in other threads, and the counter argument is always "it'll be fine; you just have to know what you're doing." Well, if people really knew what they were doing, they wouldn't use them under the playfield, and then I'd agree, it'd be fine.

From a technical standpoint, I'm really surprised this is even a discussion. From a BOM standpoint, parallel LEDs will cost a bit more (boards and wiring). From a maintenance and support standpoint, again, there's no comparison. Regardless, as already mentioned, you can go completely serial with our boards if you want too, but I wouldn't recommend it.

- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

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#17615 3 years ago
 
GSS

gstellenberg

Multimorphic

US Round Rock, TX

12y 119K 1,589 24 10

Quoted from stumblor:

you're not saying that a serial comms protocol like I2C being used in this way is a dodgy architecture right, since the LEDs on those node boards will still be driven in parallel using LED drivers? Your argument is against LEDs connected to each other in series and driven using something like WS2812 (ie LED strip lighting) ?

I2C and SPI are also single-ended digital buses not designed for noisy (EM) environments, but an LED implementation using one of them is more likely to avoid issues because you're likely using just a handful of slave devices that all receive the same data at the same time. They're still not the best choice if you're seeking noise immunity, but they're definitely better than long chains of serial LED devices. Yes, you can theoretically add error detection and correction on top of I2C/SPI, but few do, as it adds complexity to each device and reduces refresh bandwidth.

Quoted from pookycade:

The other disadvantage of 2812s and pretty much all led control systems is use of pwm which inherently means one has flickering to control brightness.

This really just depends on your refresh rate. Anything above 30fps is probably fine, 60fps for sure (just like 1080p HDTV). Our boards refresh parallel LEDs at 1000 fps and run serial buses as fast as the protocol allows (therefore limited only by the number of LEDs in the chain). Most often any flicker you see in some systems is from software-controlled color fades in systems that can't send new color data to the chains fast enough. Our PD-LEDs do fading in hardware to avoid that.

- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

3 weeks later
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#18140 2 years ago
 
GSS

gstellenberg

Multimorphic

US Round Rock, TX

12y 119K 1,589 24 10

Quoted from pookycade:

There’s a podcast I frequent called “How I Built This”. In their own words: The show features innovators, entrepreneurs, idealists, and the stories behind the movements they built.

I was on that podcast!

https://www.npr.org/player/embed/661049018/661122503

- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

6 months later
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#27210 2 years ago
 
GSS

gstellenberg

Multimorphic

US Round Rock, TX

12y 119K 1,589 24 10

Quoted from Stuieb84:

With Pre-voting open for the TWIPY awards can we all rally behind the cause of getting RAZA on the nomination list for "best homebrew"?

No! I can't imagine anything more insulting to the people who pour their hearts and souls and own money into their homebrew projects. They deserve to be appreciated and celebrated, not insulted. Please bury this idea completely.

- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

2 years later
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#33567 3 days ago
 
GSS

gstellenberg

Multimorphic

US Round Rock, TX

12y 119K 1,589 24 10

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/twip-is-deeproot-the-next-misadventure-or-a-pinball-revolution/page/243#post-5880755

There are actually lots of examples of phones controlling features on pinball machines already (well before 'pinbar' was proposed). In some cases, it's really useful. In other cases, it's a silly gimmick. As with all technology, ideas incorporating it will evolve.

- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

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#33571 3 days ago
 
GSS

gstellenberg

Multimorphic

US Round Rock, TX

12y 119K 1,589 24 10

Quoted from blueberryjohnson:

Gerry, do any p3 games utilize the functionality?

Yes, you can control various aspects of gameplay in a number of our games with a mobile phone or computer, and our SDK has the implementation as open source so any 3rd-party develop can implement their own remote control features.

- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

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Pinball Edu

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