New! Dark mode!

Browsing Pinside at night? Getting tired of all the white? Switch to dark mode using the button in the top right (or CTRL-B)!

(Topic ID: 203700)

deeproot Pinball thread

By pin2d

3 years ago

Topic Stats

  • 13,866 posts
  • 873 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 10 hours ago by blueberryjohnson
  • Topic is favorited by 233 Pinsiders


Linked Games

Topic Gallery

There have been 1,280 images uploaded to this topic. (View topic image gallery).

PXL_20201203_173809334 (resized).jpg
IMG_20201202_232146 (resized).jpg
8B462B61-F08E-4419-A0BF-BAC1E783CFFD (resized).jpeg
BtbxZM-CEAEzeM3 (resized).jpg
dreampolice02 (resized).jpg
4BC74473-7C8B-4FB5-B334-BD8A99122013 (resized).jpeg
logo (resized).png
Screen Shot 2020-11-27 at 1.09.56 PM (resized).png
subway02 (resized).jpg
popcorn (resized).png
dp_topper (resized).jpg
qr (resized).png
IMG_20201124_203346 (resized).jpg
20201122_135803 (resized).jpg

Topic index (key posts)

17 key posts have been marked in this topic, showing the first 10 items.

Display key post list sorted by: Post date | Keypost summary | User name

Post #111 Firsthand information from the Magic Girl programmer. Posted by applejuice (3 years ago)

Post #3026 RAZA promotional video Posted by vireland (1 year ago)

Post #5771 First RAZA gameplay video Posted by ZMeny (1 year ago)

Post #5874 RAZA video with more audible game sounds Posted by zaphX (1 year ago)

Post #5926 First RAZA video with successful ramp completion Posted by zaphX (1 year ago)

Post #5967 Another RAZA gameplay video Posted by flynnibus (1 year ago)

Post #6050 Closeup pictures of key playfield features Posted by Potatoloco (1 year ago)

Post #6133 Video of display animations Posted by LateCenturyMods (1 year ago)

Post #6329 Summary of Robert Mueller's interview Posted by jeffspinballpalace (1 year ago)

Post #6724 RAZA Gameplay video Posted by DS_Nadine (1 year ago)

Topic indices are generated from key posts and maintained by Pinside Editors. For more information, or to become an editor yourself read this post!

You're currently viewing posts by Pinsider flynnibus.
Click here to go back to viewing the entire thread.

291 posts in this topic match your search for posts by flynnibus. You are on page 1 of 2.
#182 2 years ago

Screenshot of deeproot sales pitch...

3291D32D-6504-4F01-AF1F-AD3643E8A4C6-5277-000009AECDA5EFCE (resized).png

The 5 days of deeproot will transform your life! Do not miss this amazing opportunity! Call now to get your tickets... they will be at the Columbus Hilton fri and Saturday. At the Toledo Sheraton next weekend, and the Farmington hills Hyatt the following weekend.

Don't miss out, all attendees will be a free copy of Roberts best selling book on how to flip homes with no money of your own!

#215 2 years ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

Another piece of jargon spewed to seem "advanced".

It's scheme'ing all the way

Be over confident...
Throw out buzz terms to make yourself seem associated with known successes...
Create new terms or ideas that make you seem innovative...
Tease with ideas/concepts that are enticing, yet you can't explain or give too much detail about..
Create links and analogies to well know successes
Associate with some past respected celebrity or well known person to give some impression of credibility...

It's the same psychological manipulation that con men have used for centuries.

People should recognize the formula from every 'as seen on TV' telemarketing ad... it's all the same crap aimed at pulling the same strings

1 week later
#425 2 years ago
Quoted from lpeters82:

What happens if someone signs the goodwill terms and they are unhappy with these mystery machines? Say they are like Zizzels or The Pin. Intentional or not, wouldn't they then be S.O.L. Things seem to be vague enough that they could legally be anything. Did I read it correctly that buyers could just take a 50% refund now?


You can say 'F this' and take nothing.. but keep your right to sue the guy and company with no assets and enough flip flops now to make it difficult to collect anything
You can sign up for a promise of discounts on deeproot games
... And at the end if you don't like the deeproot games, you can walk away... and depending on your 'tier' will dictate what relief you would have.

It's basically a tease for huge value on vaporware to lock in people waiving any claims against Popadeuce.

If deeproot fails to deliver... you get your money back (but they'll never let this happen)
If you don't like deeproot's games... if you were in for <5k.. you can get 50% of your money back AFTER the 'delivery date'. Those that put more money in the pot... you would be eligible for that money back (again after the delivery date).

The model is setup to encourage new deposits... with a promise of no risk.

But you know nothing about what games they are delivering... they've made zero games yet plan to be delivering 'multiple' games in less than 18months.

You also stand to be in the same situation you were with zidware... money or things owed to you, with potentially no way to collect.

They are selling promises in exchange for you signing away your claims against Popadeuce. The flip side is... 'something' even promises is still better than 'nothing'. But you get to ride the wave for another 12-18months

#442 2 years ago
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:

Is “delivery date” ever defined? They could just never deliver anything and keep half the money free and clear.

Yes, June 30, 2019 (or sooner)

#443 2 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

This is so unnecessarily complicated.
I realize we're dealing with lawyers and there is no such thing as simple, but this is as simple as I can suggest:
All deeproot has to say is this:
-We're getting into pinball
-We'd like to use jpop and his designs
-We realize there are past customers of his out there that are out money
-We'd like everyone to feel good about what we're doing, so here's what we're offering:
-Please don't sue john.
-When we're done, you get XXX credit on the final pinball.
We're not asking ANYTHING else of you. Just don't sue him, and hope we succeed. If we do, you get something. If we fail, well, john is already a failure.
-You've waited 6 years already. This is basically a bad debt. Let us try and make a go of this and wish us the best. At this point what more is there to lose?
The end.

It's not that far from it... except signing off to not sue John. Which is kind of tablestakes anyway... simply 'asking someone' doesn't really fly in business.

You can get credit towards a product you may or may not want... in exchange for signing off not to persue John/Zidware any further. The rest is fluff.

#445 2 years ago
Quoted from deeproot:

Thank you for your assessment, but you missed most of the points I tried to emphasize in the Webinar. Zidware customers who file a claim and are approved will get advanced access to play all titles *before* they have to commit to anything, or pay in any more money. It is completely no risk.

I didn't miss it - I just didn't give you credit because it's just fluff and I boiled it down to what really mattered.

1 - No one gives a %#$# about your offer to visit the facility as part of the deal. You make it sound like its some super valuable honor. You should be doing this anyway.
2 - The requirement to lock in a NDA for the privilege is more mental gymnastics to make this seem more 'impressive'. No one has any incentive to visit EARLY, it's actually counter productive to visit early vs near when games and the deadlines are. When trying to decide if you want the game, LATER not earlier is better. There is no requirement or incentive for anyone to give you any money sooner than the delivery deadline. So why would anyone want to visit early vs being able to see what the FINAL product is really like? And if at that stage you still really need to be keeping details under wraps... I think you have more to hide than promote.
3 - If it gets to the deadline period and you're ready to ship MULTIPLE games... and you don't *want* people playing the games.. then I would be far more worried about what you are delivering than I'd be worried about the internet knowing.
4 - The '5 days of deeproot' is the biggest fluff this community has ever seen. Even Python couldn't dream up such self-pontificating crap. I can't wait to hear the tales of the revolutionary things you've done that you can't actually share in detail.

Quoted from deeproot:

I would say you did get something right. We are sure that once Zidware Claimants see what they will be getting, most will likely max out the top tier. That benefits them; and admittedly us as well.

Well you are at least consistent with your boasting. But many of us are immune to that kind of fluffing and see your statements for what they are and can ID plenty of holes and outs to make the 'deal of a lifetime' not such a great thing.

I can't wait to see the product you look to put out that you think people are going to rush to give you an extra 10k dollars ahead of time to 'max out' to buy games from a company who hasn't shipped any and won't be vetting the games with anyone but the 'chosen ones' who also bought into the scheme.

Lets list the ways this 'dream offer' comes back to reality
1) Your offers are all off List Price - Street pricing could significantly devalue any perceived value offered here
2) You're offering 'free games' but NO frame of reference for what the resulting game value will be (List, Street, or perceived...)
3) Putting your 'revolutionary' manufacturing model aside... if take your boast of hoping most people max out their benefit.. lets assume that takes 5-10k for most people... and we speculate/guess on how many claiments there could be... 100? Lets stick with a round number.. 100. That means you HOPE to give away 300 machines for maybe 1.5-3500k revenue each. When 300 machines is a sizable run for any title these days. What does that say about your expected cost basis for your machines?
4) "Delivery date" doesn't necessarily mean 'able to take possession'. So who is to say Delivery Date isn't just 'project complete' date and actual production->shipment is still open ended.

So trust me... I didn't get it wrong, I'm just not falling for your big tale

#448 2 years ago
Quoted from lpeters82:

My only fear at this point is that somehow signing this contract could eliminate any legal leverage current customers might have against John / Zidware

That is its entire purpose. That and trying to build a captive audience of buyers for your new product...

Quoted from lpeters82:

Further, I would like to know what happens if deeproot fails, as in, they fail to produce the machines, nor have the capitol to refund deposits. I'm assuming this would make this new contract null and void, but I just don't want to see anyone loose there legal leverage.

Wouldn't be null and void - I'm sure the Settlement Deeproot makes you sign will have plenty of avoidance clauses that are one sided to avoid liability. After all, they are the only ones taking 'risk' so they hold all the cards. You can agree, or stick to what you have right now... which is nothing.

If they flop, you go right back to where you are now... facing legal costs to pursue an entity that owes you something, but probably has nothing to repay you with.

#452 2 years ago
Quoted from brucipher:

If all these other seasoned designers (Nordman, Oursler, etc.) are on board, deeproot must be doing something right to encourage them to sign up.

The promise of a steady healthy check?

These guys need to eat too... and contract game design isn't like hollywood movie star money

#456 2 years ago
Quoted from brucipher:

True, but it appears deeproot has pretty deep pockets to pay all these people, without taking money from the community. That's also a step in the right direction.
I get all the anger, but really, what does anyone have to lose at this point? Why not give deeproot a chance and then get angry if they don't live up to their words. They have promised more than anyone up until this point (outside of Jpoops original promises).

It's easy to spend other people's money...

I don't think anyone is 'angry' at deeproot for trying. What the anti feelings are about is the televangelist, 'as seen on TV' snail oil speak and dismissive nature towards things people know as credible ways to achieve success.

#534 2 years ago
Quoted from gstellenberg:

That said, innovations (and talk) mean nothing without execution and customers

Well that's why he's in law... talk wins

#539 2 years ago

I'm convinced more and more this guy is trying to build a company to be bought... more so than build a lasting pinball company.

3 weeks later
#673 2 years ago
Quoted from brucipher:

Do you think the majority of the people who gave money really felt like they were "gambling"? The community took him on good faith that he would produce pinball machines. We didn't have a whole slew of failed attempts at that time to learn from. It's not like they walked up to a roulette table and placed it on red knowing the risks. If I am not mistaken, the whole idea of crowdfunding was still pretty early on at that time (at least from a mainstream viewpoint).

Being uninformed doesn't absolve the clear and obvious risks people took. If those risks were 'clear and obvious'... then that's on the person for not doing any homework before forking out thousands.

People were over eager and FOMO was in full effect. And JPOP was not sold as 'crowd funding' it was sold as "I'm going to give you this amazing dream... for $16k"

1 month later
#783 2 years ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

Is pettiness an official claim denial reason?

remember when they said they could/would deny claims based on people tearing them down? well, I think you see them doing that here

#788 2 years ago
Quoted from wcbrandes:

And where did I tear them down flynn?

No idea.. but I imagine it falls under his assertion of "You have made multiple comments on this public platform in violation of the confidential terms of the agreement, mischaracterizing confidential terms of the agreement, and dishonestly misrepresenting performance by the parties."

1 month later
#933 2 years ago
Quoted from toyotaboy:

I think it's too vague to make the assumption that "nearly every component" means they are going to reverse engineer every single mechanism (ball through, pop bumpers, plunger, flipper assemblies, sling assemblies). Perhaps they mean that nearly every "unique component to each table design" is going to be made in-house (laser cutter for plastics, CNC and printer for playfields, etc).

We know some gear in Wales that might be up for sale... from the last guy who thought that was the way to go too...

#947 2 years ago
Quoted from PismoArcade:

Sorry if this has already been mentioned, but does anyone else think that Deeproot will sell their new pin at cost to people who got screwed by JPOP?

They have already outlined what they are offering people who put money into jpop.... basically credit towards dp games... depending on how much you were in

#961 2 years ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

There is a stark difference between him and your run of the mill, egotistical, mid size CEO.

Remember.. this guy isn't just a business owner... he is first a sales man trying to get people to buy into his funds/ideas. He comes from the insurance world.. and manipulating for gain. This isn't "our company is the best!" swagger... this is "you don't want to miss out on this amazing opportunity..." projection.

#963 2 years ago
Quoted from Fulltilt:

I got nothing more to loose... my money was already squandered by Jpop. I've been asked for nothing more.
Please tell me why I shouldn't "root for Deeproot" to succeed? (feel free to use that if you like) (:

For those that are lined up for getting a 'game' from them... sure nothing to lose but more crushed feelings. So sure, you want the best possible outcome.

I'm just putting the bravado in perspective... It's more in character with his skillset... than it is his passion.

Being in sales, you can separate passion for success, from passion for the end-game of the customer. They don't have to be exclusive... but don't confuse one for the other

#970 2 years ago
Quoted from rgb635:

Did I miss the Deeproot sign up or deposit list? I don't see any "crushed feelings" possible if their product is produced and available for purchase at the buyers discretion without deposit.

If you expect a Ferrari and get delivered a yugo.... the fact you got a yugo won’t change your disappointment. Just getting something... can still result in a lot of upset people. They need to get something they think is worth their money... else there will still be bad blood. That’s just reality.

#979 2 years ago
Quoted from Jvspin:

Yes, but what if you expected nothing and someone gave you a Yugo?

Do you really think all the JPOP people are going to be happy regardless of what they get?

Like I said... getting something isn't the same thing as being happy or satisfied. Plenty of people are going to have expectations of X.. and get Y... and be upset. The only way you avoid this is if the deeproot games somehow blow everyone away and is beyond any expectations.

#985 2 years ago
Quoted from rgb635:

or sale, you have the option to buy it or not depending on whatever criteria you feel is acceptable for you.

The conversation was about the JPOP exchange deal... your lost money towards a DR game(s)

1 month later
#1213 2 years ago
Quoted from Richthofen:

Didn’t BBB ruin Gene financially?

He lost money on every game... but that's not what did him in.

#1239 2 years ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

You think GotG or BM'66 took a lot of man hours? There's very little original animation or content. Even Maiden, a ton of it seems to be offline renders from the mobile game.

While I’m sure the game gave them plenty of a head start in character design and modeling.... I can’t think of a single scene in the actual pin that is a direct lift from the mobile game.

The big difference people keep missing is the challenge of blending live action content. Animated stuff is easier to layer, chop up, and mix with your cartoon style text, labels, backgrounds, etc. blending the live action stuff without making it feel like a cut screen all the time is wayyyy more work. And why JJP’s efforts have been so impressive on that technical and art level

#1264 2 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

This isn't actually the case, the DMDs were pretty pricey, the LCDs are cheaper.

Now, not really 15 years ago. The crossover was later. Then once those LCD had gotten so cheap, they had already moved to LED panels that had avoided the 'dead tech, so prices go up' that you had on the plasma displays. So they had affordable, with no concern about NLA parts LED panels. Then it becomes not about the cost of the unit - but the cost of the change over itself and total cost to the project. LED 12v displays may not have had a cheaper unit cost than a LCD monitor on its own... but it would have cost a lot more than 'status quo' to go the route colorDMD did.. or change your platform to drive a display natively. And remember... this is all about the time Stern was imploding and going super cheap everywhere. Why on earth would they have invested in all new hardware (and staff) to do exactly what their old hardware already did?

You should know by now... it's not just about COGS, but time and development too.

1 month later
#1496 2 years ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

Transparent displays cost the earth and are barely available. Ask again in 10 years.

I guess the slot machine guys are from another planet then?

#1501 2 years ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

Anything with something remotely capable costs a ridiculous amount.

Still used by most modern slots.. and in heavy common usage in redemption machines now too. You dismissed as not even of this earth... yet it's common place in the industries where innovation really is happening. Slots and redemptions.

You don't have to have the entire PF glass or the cabinet to make use of these kinds of things. (for instance, look at how the ghost effects were done in GB... localized effects).

#1506 2 years ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

Discussion has previously been about replacing or augmenting pf glass with it.
A 1.5" screen operating a 'hologram' isn't innovative or in any way game changing.
It's not really feasible or desirable to do much more than that in pinball.

You are probably arguing with people I have on ignore... and this would be why

Point being.. technology is out there and in common use depending on how people want to use it.

1 week later
#1624 2 years ago

How about... you all stop posting movie crap for no reason other than to post?

You all have ruined this thread for the last few days.

#1649 2 years ago
Quoted from Frippertron:

This is FUN! It's like the Ted shed pic thread. (What happened to the pics Ted?) Just Pinsiders having a good time, why do people get so mad about "staying on topic". All these posts are just a loose conversation anyway, chill out.

because when I see 30 new posts in a thread about deeproot... I expect to see some news relative to the topic. If you just want a jib-jab 'I'm bored' thread - go start one of those and post till your fingers are numb. And people who want a thread about that.. can do so. Instead, for nearly a week now, every new post on this thread has been BS.

Get off my lawn!

#1658 2 years ago
Quoted from Captain-Flint:

They are trying to guess the 80s movie that deeproot is making. How is that different than the color dmd guess threads?

No they aren't... it's just become a game/meme of throwing out random 'what if' of 80s movies as a game upon itself.... with absolutely nothing tying them to pinball or deeproot.

It's a bad meme that people just won't let go.

#1754 2 years ago
Quoted from knockerlover:

I’m really disappointed in this expo talk.
I have a lot of respect for Steve Bowden, Barry Ousler, and Dennis Nordman. I don’t know the other artists.. So I mean no disrespect to them..
There has been no substance.. Robert is asking questions to the team that’s mostly about their approach to pinball, design etc. JPop rambles on for way too long and says things that directly conflict with how he has executed in the past. I love these designers, but have heard their stories a thousand times at these panels..
This seemed woefully unprepared and last minute. No slides/video or even a static image projected and seemingly loose agenda/message. I would expect with such a powerhouse team and seemingly infinite budget, that at least some slides could be put together. David Thiels presentation that he did himself on Q*Berts audio blew this entire presentation out of the water.
It seems that the company’s plan is to hire big name talent, give them complete freedom, promise everyone the world and hope it all works out. (My opinion). I think this is reflected in the presentation today.
Roberts Main message - We are working hard behind the scenes .. ahead on some things behind on others.. we set a deadline for ourselves, and coming at TPF in March “some amazing things”.
Other main points and “big” promises - Magic girls shipped without the floating ball trick working, it’s never been done and hard to do, but deeproot has solved that problem.
They are going with a one tiered model and one tiered price. Would love to get prices lower than any pinball company has ever been done, with more toys than other games. They will be working on higher end games and will have something for all price ranges.
“Will release more than any manufacturer in history, and more titles that has ever been released in one year”
I don’t want to throw shade on anyone working to expand pinball and bring new technology and games to the market. But my “spidey-sense” is off the charts.. they aren’t taking preorders or money so, no harm in it.. but I can’t put my finger on the gameplan.

Sounds like trump pinball

#1756 2 years ago

People questioning 5 in one year and what that does to sales... remember he may not make 5 of the same type of thing.

He could make a video pin, a home pin, a stern-level pin, etc

1 week later
#1850 2 years ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

Why and how would they not allow it most already represent all the competitive brands?

Happens all the time.... companies give advantages and preference to companies that 'invest' back into the brand, by committing to marketing budgets, committing to volumes, or committing to 'exclusivity', or other avenues...

It's certainly possible... I just don't think the market supports it except for maybe a handful that could do it.

It was a big deal in the earlier days when companies like Bally/etc had much bigger power... now, not so much.

1 month later
#1920 2 years ago
Quoted from stevevt:

I don't feel like this was the very clear meaning behind "Pinball is Easy". Maybe it's just me.

Nah - just the difference between selling ideas and actually delivering product

The guy made his living selling 'potential' and 'futures' -- the idea that execution is a hell of a lot harder than ideas should be of no surprise and why Robert's over the top bravado has ruffled so many feathers.

#1924 2 years ago
Quoted from gweempose:

"We are spending over $750k a month now on this project ..."

So he's going to have a expense run rate of nearly a million dollars a month. Do the math on what you think his sales projections must be to sustain that kind of expense... then think about the price points he keeps talking about.

Let's assume he plans on a healthy 33% margin. That means he needs over 2.2 million a month in gross revenues just to break even (and this ignores startup costs). If you assume distribution makes at least 10% on sales... and an even 'average' price of 5k USD per unit. That means they need to sell 500 games A MONTH @$4500 to distribution just to break even month to month.

And if they go for some disruptor pricing... the volume numbers just go up of course.

And of course, every month you aren't making those kinds of numbers.. the hole just gets deeper.

This is the kind of stuff that makes people so skeptical of deeproot.

And it's not like pinball is something where you have R&D cycles that ebb and flow in terms of invest... then sell... you're spending that kind of operating expense all the time as you make the next widget in the pipeline.

#1929 2 years ago
Quoted from jwilson:

It's not shocking if it's money laundering. If anything it's low then.

If you are laundrying... you intend to get a percentage of your money THROUGH the system.. not just burn it on employees, taxes, and all other kinds of trackable expenses not going back to your network

#1975 2 years ago
Quoted from Bud:

All this talk about how he can’t sustain, no business plan and chock this up as a loss already might be surprised. What seems like big money to one person could be a drop in the bucket of another. In the end, if he has tons of money (his own, not investors). He might not care if this is turning a profit right away

What your logic misses is... investors will blow big money without sweating it because they believe there is a potential payoff. They take a risk hoping to hit the payoff. But doing so requires having a story about what the payoff is... and is it achievable. If you don't do that, the investors don't buy in.

What we are saying here is... this burn rate is not inline with what is practically known as achievable (or in line with what your total addressable market maybe). Basically it reeks of "not economically feasible"

People lose money on investments.. but they usually don't just burn millions without some diligence.

1 week later
#2105 1 year ago
Quoted from Roostking:

Wrong. A person invests in something to make money. You agreed to purchase a product from a company. What was the rate of return you were expecting on your investment?

Well if you pre-paid for ZW game.. You agreed to purchase a product from a non-existent company... that promised to do it after they got orders to build stuff. You invested in a promise of a future deliverable from a clearly non-existent company with no history. I think that's fair to challenge the claim of 'agreed to purchase a product from a company'. Agreed to purchase something as complex as a pinball machine... from a single mad scientist.

Maybe invested in a dream...

#2108 1 year ago
Quoted from Fulltilt:

No, backup a sentence.
ZIDWARE was the company.

A company by legal definition only. It was JPOP fumbling around in a light industrial space and convincing people to do work for him.

Point was, people were buying because it was JPOP, not because Zidware had some history, credibility, or even a sliver of a credible business plan. Zidware was a brand and structure created to sell JPOP creations. It had no employees, virtually zero assets, no history, no existing portfolio, no existing revenue, and no business plan. And none of that was really any secret, people just ignored it because of FOMO and believing the project would produce these masterpieces.

The very idea that you'd redesign stuff or even run a business selling just a dozen or so examples was the red flag from the start. There simply isn't enough revenue on the table to fund any sort of business operation, let alone R&D, game design, and manufacturing. And exactly why JPOP was able to pay himself some salary, and fail to do much of anything else.

#2114 1 year ago
Quoted from frolic:

The original threads are still here on Pinside. It was a different time then, no one was spotting those red flags then

The info was there, people just didn't want to hear it. FOMO and eagerness to get the next hotness totally overran any scrutiny. The knowledge was there, including all the commentary on JPOP himself and his role in projects -- individuals just didn't want to hear it. People were willing to run over themselves just to chase the carrot on the stick. (much like the Spanish guy developing the CFTBL mod). Once it all came crashing down and people got burned themselves, then people started opening their eyes.

Same thing happening here with deeproot - just there the FOMO effect is basically non existent and people are more cautious after being burnt. I think the same questions are being asked - the difference is how the mob is listening to the discussion.

Quoted from frolic:

But no one also could have predicted that jpop would be paying himself handsomely for years and finishing nothing

I know that's a sore point for people - but honestly it's completely moot. The revenue he took in was never going to be enough to float the business and expecting businesses (not hobbies) to run for years with no salaries is unrealistic and just a emotional outrage. No (or woefully inadequate) revenue = dead companies. It's that simple.

And that's the concern with the kind of numbers being shared around deeproot... the napkin numbers just don't work. So either it's a house of cards -- or he's got a different business plan (and GTM strategy) that hasn't been revealed yet. Yet... he just keeps marketing to the traditional pinball hobbyist audience. So I don't know how much of a disruptor he really is targeting to be...

No pinball company will ever succeed with the business plan of needing to be in the black after ONE product release. Hopefully the general hobbyist buyers will start to scrutinize that about startups. The startup costs and development cycles too long for any single product release to fully fund. Companies either need other revenue streams, huge capitalization to give them runway, or extenuating circumstances of free resources (like Spooky had) to keep the lights on until they can claw their way back out of the startup hole.

#2126 1 year ago
Quoted from Zablon:

I think people are misusing 'investing'. They are crowdfunding. Completely different.

Jpop didn't crowd fund. He presold titles to fund his business. Customers bought into a boutique product model from a guy with zero capacity or business to actual deliver on the sales promises.

I say investing because these people bought with the idea that if they didn't... the product would not be made. It became an urgency to get in... while you could. All while ignoring the lack of ability to do it

#2129 1 year ago
Quoted from applejuice:

All said with the benefit of hindsight

No - John's reputation was known in the WMS circle, and was out in the hobby circles as well because insiders like Python and others painted him as such. (Python TOPCast Interview was in 2007). And Python wasn't the first to trash JPOP, he was just one of the more flamboyant ones about it. JPOP couldn't get hired, or even have his designs bought by Stern.

The only redeeming thing he had going was that Zizzle had been moderately received. Everything else was people buying into the aurora of his past titles at WMS... where every insider tale talked about his games needing to be bailed out, his inability to complete stuff, and his complete reliance on others. Yes, everyone had kind things to say about his vision/eye for things - but they also almost universally stood against crediting John for the games' successes.

All of this was in the open and understood at the time - the faithful just didn't want to hear it. They drooled over the next CV/TOTAN/TOM... and it would be super limited so super valuable???? TAKE MY MONEY!!! That's JPOP in a nutshell.

I do acknowledge tho that the ben heck association probably brought in many to RAZA.. as the combination of new/cool thinking plus JPOP style was an attractive view for people.

Then add in the actual "how will you do this" angle. I get that at the time many people new to the hobby probably had no idea how difficult it is to get a game to production volume at the time. Most hobbyists had not yet seen the struggles DP, HWP, Spooky and others make that more visible.. and educated them on the subject. But that is simply ignorance of the topic, not relying on hindsight. The challenges to face were understood by others... the buyers just dismissed it. Interviews and stories from insiders had told the tales of the struggles. Again, people like Joe Kaminkow in 2007 had told stories about the DE pinball startup. The IPB fiasco was already in the history books.. and people like Kerry Stair told some of the tale. The cautionary tales were out there - even if you weren't someone familiar with product development - people just didn't want to focus on the 'why not', they just wanted to focus on the what can I get.

Even at the time, JPOP did nothing (except create a website and promotional pieces) to convey to anyone his credibility in actually getting a product to market. In fact, in hindsight, you can see how he may have even intentionally shyed away from that topic... with stupid stunt thinking like the ben&Jpop assembling your game crap. It's not hindsight that exposed these concerns -- people just didn't want to hear it.

Quoted from applejuice:

At the time, from being involved and working with john, nobody had a concern that John couldn't do it

What I will say is hindsight.. is the insight into John's ability to maintain that deception through his controlling of information about the project and its contributors. He duped people like you by limiting what you knew and his ploys of using secrecy, limited info releases, and gifts helped keep people from becoming critical of the project.

Quoted from applejuice:

I myself, left my old job and went to work with him based on this information to

And to be blunt, but honest... that was poor research by you. To not vet and investigate the startups viability and funding, their runway, their leadership and their track record. It's one thing to work on a project when you don't put your career/lifestyle on the line to do so - it's a whole different level to commit to where your livelihood depends on it. And as someone who is just an employee, not an equity holder, you better have faith the company has the resources or plan to actually pay you before committing. Andrew Heighway was a predator in this sense as well... leveraging people into spots where they couldn't get off the bus even when they wanted to.

Honestly, that type of vetting is the only element adding any story to the deeproot plan to date IMO.. in that multiple, seasoned people who should know what to be looking for have commited to Deeproot with significant life choices.

#2131 1 year ago
Quoted from Roostking:

How can seemingly educated people not know the difference between investing, crowdfunding, and purchasing lol.

Here's a simple way to look at it...

Which came first - your order, or the actual company and product to fulfill your order?

We're not talking the strict definition - but labeling that captures the reality of the situation. Ordering from JPOP was not the same as ordering from Amazon, or even your local department store promising delivery after payment. "ordering a product" is just people clinging onto a strict definition to distance themselves from the consequences of their choices.

#2133 1 year ago
Quoted from Zablon:

They were pre-purchasing a product that didn't exist, hoping that with enough people doing it, it would be made. That is crowdfunding

...and not what Zidware sold or advertised. JPOP sold the idea of magic girl as a "can't miss exclusive" boutique game limited to 16 examples. Zidware was never pitched as "with enough orders... we can make this happen" - it was pitched as an exclusive offer that people were hyped into FOMO and why they needed to buy before the product even existed. RAZA as well was purely a pre-sales model - not a "gather enough orders to make this a reality" sales pitch. Zidware never pitched uncertainty of the product's availability or their funding to make the project happen.

That's why it's not 'crowdsourcing' and simply pre-sales. I take it further to risky behavior as 'investing' because it was a "company" selling stuff for 5 figure numbers with no credibility and huge promises.

I really don't want to drag more JPOP reliving into this deeproot thread. I just wish people would stop dismissing that all the red flags were there all along - people just wanted to see what they wanted to see from the cards. The pre-order frenzy and "10k by christmas" effect was in full swing.

#2137 1 year ago
Quoted from boo32:

People who get excited about a new pinball machine sure are dumb jerks. People who aren’t excited about having been ripped off are even dumber. Anyone who didn’t know all of the pinball gossip surrounding every designer is an even bigger jerk. What a bunch of dummies. I bet some of those dummies got excited about Deeproot too. What a bunch of idiots!

Know what's worse? If people actually listened to the people who did the work as much as they listen to amateurs doing podcasts acting like they know the work... hundreds of thousands of dollars would have been saved.

#2148 1 year ago
Quoted from toyotaboy:

I love the people in this thread rubbing salt into wounds. In 2011 there was Stern and JJP was JUST announcing their new company and 1st title. You didn't even see early concepts of WOZ until mid 2011. Like Frolic said it was a different landscape. Did many buy in because of FOMO or thinking it would be another BBB? Of course, but honestly the concept wasn't that far fetched.

Yeah, but what you saw Jack do was very different from JPOP. Jack went out and assembled a team of veterans. Jack had a running, successful business that was generating revenue and gave him plenty of initial capital to work with. Jack had the resources to actually build his company and team. And even then, the delays basically sapped everything he had too. Contrast this with JPOP who tried to shoe string a business together and masqueraded as way more than he actually was... and horse traded as much as possible to stretch what little he had.

JJP was an upstart... but to put Zidware even on the same page is an insult to Jack. Zidware was far more like Skit-B or Vonny-D than anyone else. All fluff, no vetted business plan to actually get to at least shipping... let alone success.

The only way you can say Zidware wasn't 'far fetched' is if you only looked at his idea of what a pinball should be - instead of actually looking at Zidware as a company attempting to produce commercially available pinball machines.

Quoted from toyotaboy:

Wrath of olympus got designed for free, but because it didn't get the 100 pinball minimum (I think it got somewhere around 70) it couldn't get manufactured. However, those willing to assemble their own playfields could do so if they bought the parts and 6 did get made (and they work).

Wooly tho is more akin to TBL - just because you have a game you built, and can even reproduce manually, does not really make it production ready. TBL got reworked to make it more viable to be mass produced and sourced for production by ARA. Even TNA had to go through similar work, and Wooly would have had to as well.

But I think Wooly is a red herring here though, as Scott never set out to build the game on his own, or was he attempting to startup a business to do it.
Sure JPOP could have ultimately parallel Wooly's path and built a handful of games - but you'd never be an actual producer of pinballs that way.. just like the build party that built the 6 wooly's doesn't really count as production. Which is also why when DP first boasted about ARA's plan for TBL that included photos of just a small area of 4 workstations it was laughable. But again... people just wanted to see what they wanted... so any progress report was taken like it was the bee's knees. (and notice, once ARA started, they revamped their whole plan and moved the project to bigger spaces).

Quoted from toyotaboy:

If John didn't squander money (IE lease a giant building and buy a bunch of capital equipment and hire 2 artists to work on the same game), but just tinkered with a design like Scott Danesi did and got a WORKING game before taking deposits, it would have had a much different outcome.

No, he still would have flopped hard - because having the game layout and art is only a fraction of the work. And JPOP really had no plan beyond that. You would have ended up with the box of lights like they had for the Houdini, and every other Zidware project... a physical prototype with absolutely no path to actually getting it produced. All the emotional angst about how John spent money on himself really is just emotional outbursts. That's not what sunk zidware - it never had a shot of surviving given the path he took. Which is why I still think JPOP thought he was going to simply produce playfield concepts and someone like Stern would see the potential, swoop in and buy him out and take him in before he ever actually got to the point of having to figure out how to build the games.

Which.. ironically.. is what Deeproot has kind of done now... but they took in an infant, not a ready design(s).

#2157 1 year ago
Quoted from aeneas:

It was indeed pre-sales and nothing else.
For those asking why people wouldn't understand it wasn't crowdfunding or investing - this was back in 2010 or 2011, crowdfunding was non-existant then, kickstarter probably didn't exist ?

No, crowdfunding was a thing - it's just not what Zidware was.

Quoted from aeneas:

The only comparable project was Gene's BBB. Gene basically did the same - presales. He made some flyers, went to a pinball show with a BBB, announced he was going to make it and collected money. Then people didn't hear from him for a long time (except some rumours) and suddenly BBB's got delivered.

Not true.. While it's true Gene did not publize updates, etc.. the struggles were very much discussed in the hobby. The whole BearCave guys fallout... Kerry Stair coming in and rescuing the project, etc. It wasn't an open book, but it was far from a 'years later, games appeared'. It's all out there on RGP. BBB was the zidware of the day and if it weren't for Kerry, it would have failed. There are parallels here... the idea guy probably isn't the one who will be able to get the project over the line - they need the expertise along side them. Gene had money and the inventory.. so he had that huge head start. And even that was not enough to build a pinball machine successfully. Even tho the project got done (thank you Gene) they finished it only at the expense of tons of money lost and lots of people/relationships ruined.

Quoted from aeneas:

John had a much higher price so people assumed John had done his math and was able to produce the game

That's the horrible line of thinking - and gets back to what I've said before... people somehow only focus on this 'per unit profit' mindset which is nothing about how a business needs to fund itself. He could make 10k margin per game, but if he only sells 20 games.. that's still only 200k to run the business with. Knowing a project will take a year or more... then start thinking about all the expenses you incurr, in labor, overhead, tooling, you see how the numbers aren't going to add up. 200k sounds like a ton until you realize that's the only money you have, and it's supposed to last you through startup, design, ramp, production, and till your next game sale. It's not just about margin per game, it's margin AND volume that matter... and why boutiques (that last..) charge so much more per unit.

Quoted from aeneas:

The only real difference between Gene and JPop is that Gene had a game to make. JPop still had to invent everything

No, JPOP INSISTED on inventing everything - even where readily available stuff worked just fine. And he was getting called out on that all along. The stupid leg bolts? The Z everything metal stamping, etc. This is just one of the many reasons that he was never going to make it, and the whole salary thing is just a emotional distraction. He was burning money chasing different projects, without any timetables, designing and prototyping completely unnecessary parts, spending way too much on overhead when he didn't need it yet, and more.

It's not his salary that sank Zidware, it was his management of zidware that did.

Which is why deeproot's disclosure of numbers is of interest. With correct management, you don't spend that kind of money they quoted without a plan for proportionally sized REVENUE. So what is their plan that pulls in that kind of revenue, because it doesn't line up with small pinball volumes.

#2159 1 year ago
Quoted from jlm33:

The initial number of MG (16) was not that different from the number of Wooly pins assembled (6). In both cases this seemed doable with a very limited infrastructure - no factory required, Do it yourself assembly, etc.

But Scott wasn't pretending to run a business - he allowed a select group to buy and build a project. So when everything runs in the red and doesn't matter what it costs.. that's fine. JPOP was promising to do radical things and somehow make a business out of it.

Quoted from jlm33:

But the similarity ends here.

Agreed - It's not so much that assembling a handful of games wasn't doable by JPOP - it's that doing so as a business that isn't a charity, while reinventing everything, doing it premium, and without any paid help wasn't really doable.

Quoted from jlm33:

I am pretty sure people would have lined up to help JPop for free... Hell, he would have probably convinced people to pay for that (Pinball assembly lessons 101)

But that scenario played out too... 1) batshit crazy JPOP secracy 2) failed promises 3) incompetency that ran off those that DID sign on him to help him (just go back and re-read applejuices and zombieyeti tales for start.. let alone the other individuals who tried to get involved)

#2160 1 year ago
Quoted from benheck:

Spooky made all 150 AMH's in a pair of units under 2k Sq ft total. Not all that different than a garage.

But Spooky did how much of it with friends and family labor? (jpop needed all his help)
Spooky floated the slow production with their own money and their existing business (zidware had no other business)
Spooky was doing what.. 2-3 games a week in the original setup right?
Spooky didn't paint themselves any bigger or capable than what they were
Spooky almost immediately outgrew that initial space and space was a limiting factor in their work

We all know people can build a game, or even multiple games in their basements no less. But I don't think that compares to repeating that, reliably, at scale.

And neither DP or Deeproot are aiming for such low production volume

#2176 1 year ago
Quoted from taylor34:

This is not to rub salt in anyone's wounds, but in the original announcement thread (on rgp), a lot of people didn't think it made financial sense and highly questioned whether it would be produced. It didn't matter, it still sold out immediately.!topic/

And the most bizarre aspect of all of it was... frank f was the voice of reason! While everyone else was too busy talking about who has money or not. That just goes to show how buzzed people were at the time and detached from reality.

And mrbally at least got one right
“I'll go out on a limb and say that John Pop's and JJP's WoZ will all
get built (not sure about Gene, Gene the Dancing Machine's King Pins
as of late). Gary will be proven wrong, again.”

#2177 1 year ago
Quoted from taylor34:

To be fair on BBB, that never would have been made had people not gone out of their way to save it. I don't think Gene by himself was going to get it done, much in the same way those initial Magic Girls weren't going to be built without American Pinball.
Those naysayers aren't wrong. Without outside assistance, was BBB going to be built? No. Magic girl? No. JJP games after Woz? No. If someone is going to fail and gets 'bailed out', that means the naysayers were right. Just like the banks in 2008, they were going to fail without a bailout. In fact it kind of reaffirms that the naysayers were right about the initial business plan.


#2179 1 year ago
Quoted from Mr68:

Quoted for my amusement.

I guess selective reading is a trait some just don't out grow...

#2201 1 year ago
Quoted from Zablon:

Sorry, I'll let you get back to your echo chamber.

Says the guy praising magic girl... the biggest fail of how to design pins in the modern era.

#2204 1 year ago
Quoted from Zablon:

Followed closely by others being suggested. Not sure I see your point, but not really interested in trying since you didn't try to see mine.

It’s a game lead by the visuals instead of what you actually do in pinball... play the game. It was never flushed out as an actual flipping playfield. It was not designed with any engineering. It was not designed with any form of team work except for JPOP being the common element. It was designed with the policy that contributors didn’t even know who else was working on the project. As such the game is only as good as what jpop could imagine himself... which is why it’s an unplayable hunk of crap with pretty art and an attractive lead character design.

The project is the poster child of virtually everything not to do in a complex project - and the output reflects that.

#2207 1 year ago
Quoted from lpeters82:

My point is, if they are reaching capacity by doing what they like, are they really leaving any money on the table by not doing what's "good for business"?

What does this have to do with the comment? Ben's comment was about the choice in titles and game economics - not about the choice to stay 'right sized' and not grow.

#2210 1 year ago
Quoted from lpeters82:

I'm not sure I'm following. If they choose more popular titles, with no capacity to produce more games, what is the economic benefit?

I think you're missing the comments and pattern . The pokes by Ben have not been about Spooky's limited production capacity and slow growth choice - but over WHAT titles they chose to produce.

He's already said in the past his choice was getting put down because of concerns over license costs and the most recent comment about theme selection -- Spooky picking titles Charlie is interested in, vs different opinions on what the market may want. Spooky has to be very diligent in what titles they chose to produce because they are essentially single tracked right.

The more successful their titles are (even if they didn't change their volume) - the less risk they face, the better chance for later re-runs, the less need to rely on 'limited' as a selling tool, the greater opportunity they have for securing future resources or titles.

2 weeks later
#2232 1 year ago

"deeproot Pinball plans to give away a FREE pinball machine for each designer to some lucky winners!! Designers include Robert Mueller, Dennis Nordman, Jon Norris, Barry Oursler, and John Popadiuk. You get a FREE deeproot machine of your choice by that designer! The designer will also help set up the machine, discuss the design process and the game, and play your game at your place of residence!! You can invite up to four friends. These giveaways will take place after deeproot Pinball officially launches!! (Reasonable restrictions apply. Subject to change.)"

Oh my.. where have we heard this before...

#2249 1 year ago
Quoted from deeproot:

2232 was a post of a repost from TWIP repost from early 2018. And if you win the game and you don’t want us to bring it out for you, I’m sure someone else would love to have it. We are just trying to help Jeff out.
— Robert dT

Regardless of when the idea was introduced, it was advertised in the Jan 10 post from TWIP as 'future giveaway' - so please don't try to flush this away as if someone were copying something old out place.

All the same cringe worthy promises in there still have their own stigmas


#2250 1 year ago
Quoted from JodyG:

Awesome, my apologies on not picking up this was a repost and most of the conclusions I made

It's not a repost of something out of date.. It's an ad ran in this week's TWIP about a promo DP setup prior.. which apparently they still want to promote.

#2251 1 year ago
Quoted from lancestorm:

It’s a repost dude and now you look silly

No, taking someone's word without doing your own homework is how you look silly

#2253 1 year ago
Quoted from lancestorm:

Disagree. It was stated much earlier in the threads and other avenues. I remember this and so do many other people. Basically RUBBERDUCKS should have sourced it instead of just putting quotes and posting it. Knowing the source is important. But I remember this from long ago. This is NOT new news.

Rubberducks didn't post it.. I did. The source was not material to the discussion about the text and why it wasn't included. The source doesn't change anything about the discussion... the only reason the 'source' is even a subject is because robert tried to bury it as something old.

Newsflash - the offer was still made WELL AFTER jpop made the same claims - which is why the thing has stink associated with it.. not because it was 2018 or 2019.

Regardless, the offer was posted AGAIN just this week by TWIP. So tell me again how knowing that or not changes the discussion?

4 weeks later
#2371 1 year ago
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:

Correct. You can license a character, but unless you also license the actor's face, it needs to look like someone else. Funny though this doesn't work like that in voiceover acting. You can copy
Someone's voice all day long and you don't owe them a dime. (Which, to be clear, is a good thing)

Usually For parody with limits... but not to simply copy and infer endorsement. In most areas their voice is still covered by right of publicity and copyright.

#2376 1 year ago
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:

It is exclusively that endorsement may be misconstrued. Voice is not protected by trademark or likeness rights at all. I’ve done tons of soundalike ads and other gigs that bear no risk. Half of voice acting is copying people’s voices in the first place!

Again, these laws can vary by state.

In california for instance, voice IS explicitly named in the right to publicity laws. Specifically:
"(a) Any person who knowingly uses another's name, voice, signature, photograph, or likeness, in any manner, on or in products, merchandise, or goods, or for purposes of advertising or selling, or soliciting purchases of, products, merchandise, goods or services, without such person's prior consent, or, in the case of a minor, the prior consent of his parent or legal guardian, shall be liable for any damages sustained by the person or persons injured as a result thereof."

Generally people tell you to be cautious... as the likeness and risk of confusion leads to risk of liability.

Just because you've done it and not been challenged doesn't necessarily make it legal. The matter is very much a regional one.

The matter of film characters adds other dimensions as you are typically mimic'ing the character, not a person.. so the likeness is that of the character. The rights the actor has to the character's use and likeness will vary based on their contract... but pretty much since the 80s actors have rights that prevent the studios from requiring them to blanket give away their control.

1 month later
#2478 1 year ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

These veterans were unemployed till DR came knocking, so as long as they are getting paid why would they jump ship?

In the context of the discussion... 'getting paid' is the exact retort to 'is this a real company?' question. They are still employed, they presumably are still getting paid, so to the question of 'is it a real company' -- that suggests yes.

What the outcome will be... stay tuned

3 weeks later
#2570 1 year ago
Quoted from toyotaboy:

someone posted a link to deeproot's patent for a pinball cabinet on deadflip stream the other night. im for innovation, but im also for JUST MAKING A PINBALL MACHINE.[quoted image]

that thing better have a cabinet made of concrete to keep it planted and stable when you pull a PF out that far out on pivot arm...

#2646 1 year ago
Quoted from Aurich:

This is really a hugely important point I think. I have no idea why we've decided swappable playfields are coming, but I definitely don't recommend them for a new manufacturer for the above reason. You get locked into your initial design decisions with no room to update and fix things as problems come to light because everything you do has to be backwards compatible with what you started with.

Yes, but it's a sound design principle you try to maintain regardless. Stern doesn't design a new platform for every game.. they design one and use it for many games. You don't want to re-invent the wheel every game and spend that time and R&D.

You don't have to get it right on the first game, you can always retrofit those first attempts. The problem was heighway had no sales to have resources to take care of those customers in a meaningful way... let alone the capacity to productize such upgrades properly.

Every manufacturer re-uses their core game design.. even if they sell you a new cabinet each time.

The problem is more what was described earlier... saving cabinets doesn't really save costs. It's a model that doesn't really move the price point radically enough to offset the trade-offs.

#2649 1 year ago
Quoted from knockerlover:

In a steve Richie seminar, he talked about how Atari spent too much time trying to reinvent things that didn’t need to be reinvented (flipper mechs, etc.) when they should have been trying to focus on making better games.. (paraphrased). That ultimately led to their demise.
Heighway had some similar patterns, passive switches, interchangeable playfields, etc. and we know what happened there.
It’s a fine line between pushing the line of innovation, and reinventing just for the sake of reinventing. And this patent looks to be a solution without a problem.

People want the big wins before they have revenue... that's a low percentage strategy

#2665 1 year ago
Quoted from tiesmasc:

The idea of a swapable playfield may not be novel and thus not patentable... particularly since it has been implemented before

Patents don't secure an idea - they secure a METHOD.

#2701 1 year ago
Quoted from Richthofen:

That's interesting to me, mostly because the expensive part of pinball machines these days are not the parts, it's the labor. Paying workers by the hour to hand-solder components, manually hammer in t-nuts, and build complicated wiring looms (now with more wire so you can cantilever out the playfield 5 feet!) is the big cost.

No it's not for machines built in a proper factory building at scale. Labor is the part that is most difficult to ramp up initially and is expensive if you are not Sustaining volume. It's the factor you can control and drive down with efficiencies and processes... so that's why it's such a focus. Because unlike a component cost you source, it's something you can actually influence and optimize quite significantly.

Labor is high operating overhead... it's not necessarily high cost per unit.

#2706 1 year ago
Quoted from Richthofen:

Pinball is made by hand mostly in the USA. In the United States, labor is high in price relatively speaking.

There is still plenty of assembly done here. The trick is speed.

Your pf swap example is bad because it's nothing like production. In production you take away all variations and hesitation as much as possible. Take away reaching for other parts... tools... looking up where it goes... or with what hardware etc. That's the entire point of their station based assembly line. Small repeatable steps that are each optimized. Why you use pre staged sub assemblies etc.

Changes to things like lightboards vs individual sockets... IDC connectors, etc these are examples of engineering for efficiency.

It's expensive to people who can't sustain a full time manufacturing plant or afford to engineer and optimize for production. Companies like stern have professionals that do just that...

1 week later
#2766 1 year ago
Quoted from frolic:

Some deeproot news posted here:
For us in this thread, this seemed to be the biggest chunk of new info:

I'd be curious how "40 animators" compares with the entire compliment at Stern or JJP. Isn't it just Jean-Paul de Win who does ALL the JJP games?
I don't doubt that all the talent at deeproot can produce some very exciting stuff. But I'm a business guy and this still doesn't make sense.

It's been mentioned before that DR bought into or has spun up a software group offsite.. and they were doing the media/interactive stuff. My guess is like most DR activities, it is a layered thing trying to multitask. This group is likely working on other initiatives, as well as pinball. Same way pinball was able to move into a facility intended for other uses too.

So I've read it as... one of DR's 'companies' is a game/media software group.. and they've leveraged that group to work on the DRP software. This in contrast with trying to land some 'big name' pinball software guy like they did with designers.

#2830 1 year ago

its as if... you can hear the money jumping out of people's pockets already... FFS

#2859 1 year ago
Quoted from John_I:

The production value is miles ahead of anything JJP or Stern has done

And it’s also nothing like the other teams have set out to do. So I don’t really get all the comparisons.

It’s a quick short... it’s completely incompatible with what is needed in a game in the formats we have now. People don’t want to stop for 5 seconds... let alone to hear some long drawn out monologue.

It’s apples and oranges.

#2906 1 year ago
Quoted from adol75:

You don't need a camera to track a ball on a playfield. Anki Overdrive is an exemple on how recognizing placement of little cars on a track can be achieved. It's a commercial product, decently cheap (150$ for the complete starter set), and is fully performed locally.
Here some details on how they do that, they claim (but no way to verify) that each car check its position 500 times per second.

and completely useless for this kind of application. It is the inverse of what is needed in pinball. In pinball, the moving object is the stupid inert thing... not the smart thing moving over a fixed map.

The ball can't track itself... something has to locate it. IR grids and ultimately cameras are the most popular ways to detect position of a foreign object.

#2950 1 year ago
Quoted from adol75:

The ball is the same as the car, it's the moving object, and it's the one that has the IR camera. The difference on the ball is that it rolls, so it would need either a very reactive gyroscope or an array of IR lights, each on its own frequency most likely

You should re-read yourself afterwards to understand just how ridiculous this is.

Is the ball also going to be transparent? Because it would need to be as it rolls so your cameras will have to see out every possible portion of the ball as the ball surface rolls past. And then we should talk about how you are going to fit all this in that space... and make it reliable as it goes through crazy G forces and impulses.. and must all fit in the size of a pinball.. and play like a pinball.

Oh and it needs to be powered... so we'll need a battery.. and a charging system...

etc etc etc.

DOA dude

#2951 1 year ago
Quoted from benheck:

"Modern" pinball machines are laughably primitive compared to most other things.
If a large tech driven company bothered to do anything in the realm of Pinball they would squash every company like an elephant on an ant.

something about mouse traps comes to mind...

And how many times have people thought they were smarter than the old guys from before... and failed?

#3004 1 year ago
Quoted from TreyBo69:

It's funny to me the number of people who think it's some Herculean engineering task to develop a system that could track the ball on the playfield without mechanical switches
Gerry, you really need to work on getting the P3 to more shows...

except... that wasn't the conversation. It was about doing it DIFFERENTLY than p3 had already done.

#3016 1 year ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

No. That wasn't mentioned one single time.

So wait.. you proposed a tracking system.. that you even admit is not feasible... to address a problem that you (should) know P3 already addressed, and did so successfully?

So you're back to reinventing the wheel with impractical ideas? You and the cameras in the ball guy should hang out more often.. two peas in a pod.

#3040 1 year ago
Quoted from adol75:

You know (or maybe you don’t) the medical industry use cameras that fit in a pill swallowed by the patient, self guided and self stabilized. It’s the 10th of the size of a pinball.
But anyways, since you didnt read what I’ve posted after, I didn’t say it was realistic or doable, I also did not say it should be done. What I said though is that there was other methods than a camera to track a ball in a closed environment.

They also don't hit them with bats and throw them around at a few m/s or smash them with other steel objects. You're comparing apples and cucumbers.

"There are other methods..." and you illustrate that with examples you acknowledge are not "realistic or doable"

That's the idiocy of this thread over the last two days... supporting points with stuff you know is complete garbage. Knew so much.. you even went back to the well three times to refine it..

#3041 1 year ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

I'm writing on a phone so I can't type all that again but I allready answered that ~2 pages ago.
Short: You don't track the ball. You just define areas (like switches) where the view (maye an infrared light) gets obstructed by the ball or not.
If you NOW in multiball shoot a slow ball in the left orbit and one in the right, the game will count it as an orbit shot also. The game doesn't track the ball. It assumes you made the shot because these two switches are hit.
Also this "play of thoughts" doesnt assume to get rid of all switches.

Your idea simply evolves to what we already have.. optical switches. When you start addressing all the nooks and crannies you want in a game.. you end up with all these zones that can only be seen from nearby places.. and why bother with an advanced computed image if all you are doing is proximy detection.. so you end up with just what we already have. Optos or induction detection.

When you go to visual and expect a good FOV.. you end up doing what P3 already did.. a big open empty space.

#3052 1 year ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

It would be way easier if you would just read what has allready been written before trying to proof some conspiracy.
It is an opto, exactly. I said that allready.
But with only one emitter and one recepient, so you don't need to tie lots of cables into a switch matrix and therefore save money.

Ignoring the point why I said it devolves into Optos... you can’t have one spot that can see the entire pf! So instead of one.. you end up with two... three... four... and now your just back to doing what we are doing... proximity. And at that point, your complex method is completely wasted.

People seem to forget... sometimes the reason a method is repeated is not just venues it’s easier to copy.. but because it can be the most effective mix that has been proven.

Innovation that doesn’t improve anything is simply experimentation. You try to avoid making your customers bear that burden.

If the solution doesn’t outperform the original... don’t do it.

(This coming from a guy whose industr has been trying to perfect drawing tracking, fingers, multitouch, etc forever). Digital whiteboards anyone? Yeah it’s the same problem and it’s been worked on for ages. Both optically and with surface designs.

#3061 1 year ago
Quoted from TreyBo69:

It just doesn't seem that technically challenging to install a small number of IR lamps in strategic locations and have an array of sensors positioned to view the majority of the playfield (with a few supplemental mechanical switches as needed). The lamps could flash a grid like pattern and the sensors would repeatedly detect changes. Software would then determine the locations of all the static objects and track the moving ball(s). Sure it wouldn't be perfect, but it could be just as effective as how it's done now.
At that point it's a cost-benefit analysis comparing the new system to the reduction in parts, labor, and assembly time from doing things the traditional way. And there would be new benefits like never having to physically adjust a switch

Go look at a PF and look at where the majority of the switches are. They aren't out in the great wide open.. they are in lanes, behind things, orbits, etc. This solution that keeps getting floated is a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.. and isn't extendable to the majority of the real work. P3 used the idea to ADD something... real-time ball tracking to enable new ideas. You all are trying to cost reduce a game by removing components.. and substituting a system that is crippled and doesn't actually address the initial application of how playfields are laid out.

No one is debating the viability of optical tracking. It's been done for ages. Heck, kids toys do it. The point is "does it make sense in pinball and as a cost reduction".

And as for just shooting IR around a playfield... notice many Optos have shields around them? And why long range optos like the Myst opto are not standard setups? Light pollution!

I get the whole 'parts reduction' and 'remove physical contact' ideas that stemmed this idea - it's just a DOA attempt at a solution due to its limitations and ineffectiveness as a replacement technology.

Wiring labor is cheap compared to field support.

#3062 1 year ago
Quoted from adol75:

The FIFA had similar issues when they started the goal line project, the ball was moving and being hit hard and played under hard weather conditions. On top of it it had to be precise by the millimeter and 100% reliable in a billion dollar industry solely based on the ball passing the line or not.
Bottom line of the story is with the right people and the right money the sky is the limit.

Hey, with the right people and the right amount of money we went to the moon right? So I guess any hairbrained pinball idea must work too!! My god, how did I miss that? FIFA's problem and solution has absolutely zero to do with the designs proposed here.

You're simply countering with "hey, OTHER problems have been solved before..." - So what.. that doesn't mean your ideas are viable.

#3075 1 year ago
Quoted from toyotaboy:

Yeaaa, but it's a LOT of wiring. ask anyone in the industry what a pain it is to manufacture, not to mention design a new harness EVERY single time you design a new playfield.
Physical switches are constantly getting mashed needing re-adjustment, and sometimes switches can cause ball hangups. Ever notice how modern cellphones have very few physical switches anymore? That's because touchscreens are more reliable. They also prefer you charge using a wireless pad so you don't wear out the charging port.
When people talk about cameras, we aren't talking about a webcam.. It can be a cellphone camera (which is tiny and cheap and can mount in tight areas on the playfield). If a replacement cellphone camera is $5 retail, it's probably less than a dollar in volumes direct from the manufacturer (and you don't need 13 megapixels to detect an object. Hell you don't even need color). I'm willing to bet if you found the right chinese supplier that was trying to dump 2 year old cellphone cameras you could get them for 50 cents all day long. Tool up a small plastic mounting bracket. $.50 camera + $.25 bracket ($.75) to replace a $2 switch (and cameras can detect multiple areas replacing multiple switches).
I guess the only caveat is how long would the camera stay clean, and how often would you have to clean it?
Could it slide out under the playfield so you don't have to peel away layers of plastic to get at it?

I totally get the idea of removing physical contact as a form of reliability. But again, it's not just a single dimension that matters. Ultimately many things simply boil down to 'keep it simple stupid' as the most consistent way to get something done.

Cameras are limited by FOV... so even if you table that for now.. and assume we're talking about where you can see. (ignoring things like multiple levels, going behind things, around things, lanes, etc)

If we want to use image cameras - now we're talking about object identification and reliability. Oh, and doing that on something moving very fast. And we'll want precision as we want to not just locate the item, but tell its depth in the field as well. Oh, and you're trying to do this in low light... and trying to do this with multiple objects... And now do all this in some cheap compute platform.. that you're using in relatively low volumes... and write all the software for it.

All to remove some switches? That themselves really aren't that big of a deal.

They aren't expensive. They are pretty reliable. Their biggest issue is labor at installation.. which is something you can highly optimize and do yourself. Oh, and the development of it is pretty damn stable.. so you don't have to dedicate huge amounts of resources to keep refreshing as the components you rely on keep changing.. outside of your control.

Cable harness work won't go away.. it would just be simplified. But this is work you do 'once' per project.. so it's not some huge gain the longer you run.

I've worked for over 20 years in the image processing world... the streaming video everyone enjoys today are based on the work of distinguished coworkers of mine. In our products today, we've replaced PTZ cameras with 5k sensors that do all the work digitally... removing fisheye for wide lens... facial recognition... face detection.. object tracking.. intelligent framing... I get and appreciate what the world can offer for us. But I also respect the idea that sometimes things are just poor fits.. or can be done much simpler.

It's like . 'man.. I could take a pi, and write code to do ABC...' - or someone comes along and says with with a few resistors and caps I could do the same thing and it will work for decades without ever needing to touch it.

It's funny you use the example of touchscreens being more reliable... because that's exactly what displaced all the optical sensing in digital whiteboarding. The experience of using a physical board and pen was dumped for basically huge iPads because the technology worked so much better, could multi-purpose so much better, and could deal with multi-touch and the physical environments so much better.

The reliability of switches is not really a huge deal in pins (minus a few corner cases). It's the reliability of the wiring and physical mechs.

The biggest advantage to replacing switches would likely be the removal of the physical space constraints they impose.

Or you could go like HWP tried.. and just try to come up with a better switch.

#3121 1 year ago
Quoted from soren:

Does a pingame without visually identifiable switches feel right?

You don't miss them at all in Alien. The switch with actuator isn't really part of the pinball lore everyone is attached to. Switches have been implemented dozens of different ways in pins... from buttons, to targets, to wires, to spring plates, to invisible beams of light or magnetism.

People want the idea that action = reaction... they don't care how the game 'knows'.

Switches are just a very practical way to solve the location problem on a playfield.

#3122 1 year ago
Quoted from Mr68:

One of the reason I mention this is because I sense an evolution of improving attitudes here towards Jpop. It seems to me that more and more people are now speaking up in supporting John. And I get it, as I see reasons to support him and Deeproot too.

I think that is just more and more people around now that aren't as informed about the past. Late comers who haven't listened to the insiders... or who didn't live through zidware... etc.

#3136 1 year ago
Quoted from soren:

You see, I am not so sure. The mechanical verification of a "finish line" is not to be overlooked. I think.

All I can say is... no one cried the loss of pinball purity after Optos became popular in the 90s.. and no one is at any loss when optos are used over blade switches even today. And no one bemoans how alien looks or plays simply based on the lack of under PF wire switches popping through.

1 month later
#3436 1 year ago

Still using the jpop book of how to sucker people... throw in some art teases...

#3453 1 year ago

Comical.... still boasting as they wildly miss deadlines.

Know what other companies do when it gets thick? Focus... instead dp boasts about developing “tens” of pins.

Wonder if claimants lose their buyout option if they don’t take it at this deadline?

#3523 1 year ago

I predict the update will give us at least 5 days of deepPoop... so there is that

#3526 1 year ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

So funny, yet so innovative.
Keep'em coming.

Stop cluttering up the threads with your babble.

#3532 1 year ago

Noise and legit interest are not the same thing

Pinball is small enough if you are making games... you don't really need to rely on drama to bubble your name to the top. A good product will get talked about enough on its own.

#3560 1 year ago
Quoted from deeproot:

Thank you for your assessment, but you missed most of the points I tried to emphasize in the Webinar. Zidware customers who file a claim and are approved will get advanced access to play all titles *before* they have to commit to anything, or pay in any more money. It is completely no risk.
I would say you did get something right. We are sure that once Zidware Claimants see what they will be getting, most will likely max out the top tier. That benefits them; and admittedly us as well. I guess 'Sizzle without the zizzle' was overlooked in my last interview. I thought it was clever at least. Hehe.

Hey deeproot - How's the rear view mirror on these claims now? Will zidware customers get that advanced access to play 'all titles' before they have to commit to anything? Because it sure sounds like a decision facing them now. Will they still have the cash out option in the future if they chose to accept your new timetable?

And did your projection of most claimants upgrade to 'max out the top tier'? I've only heard of people opting not to mess with the whole thing in general.. not double down.

#3562 1 year ago

Hrmm... so in December 2018... deeproot boasts they are spending over 750k a month.. with costs to further ramp up. 6+ months later... they miss their major milestone date, and give another 6 month release window... that is 4+ months away.

That's 10-16 months of delay at their 750k++ number. So that's 7-12 MILLION dollars in sunk costs just from this slide. How much are people making per unit again?

#3646 1 year ago
Quoted from pinstyle:

Has any one of you guys ever broken out a calculator and just punched in some rough numbers? Their sales are far in the millions. Its not THAT expensive to buy/lease a building, its not THAT expensive for a few hundred feet of gravity conveyor, cheap assembly labor etc...

At the time Stern was struggling to get games to sell 500-2k units.. they were only making 3ish titles a year.

Revenue is essential... but your 'rough numbers' probably assume a sellout at high numbers. And doesn't account for titles that couldn't sell. Struggling to sell 500 pieces wasn't paying the bills. Games cost huge amounts of time and money to develop.. and if it didn't sell, that was all red. Stern had a model of needing to sell a # of games to make it all work.. and they weren't doing it. It's a huge capital cost to fund the development, then fund the inventory, and then run the manufacturing. It's all predicated on the idea that you are getting cash flow from current sales to fund the next project. And they weren't.

It's why they went crazy reducing the BOM on games. It's why they laid off all their design staff and went BARE BONES. That wasn't the sign of a company just waiting for an investor to 'take them to the next level'. That was the sign of a company facing the crunch of cash flow and expenses.

Gary is an accountant... and that saavy shows in his efforts in the lean years to try to keep things going.

You think it's a simple calculator exercise? Yet we have a whole list of companies that couldn't do it profitably, and another list of companies that couldn't even get it done before running out of money. Your assumptions forget it takes a staff of several disciplines, MANY months to work on game. Then there is prototyping, molds, contractors, etc. That's all cost that needs to be recovered in that margin of the game you hope is going to sell. Because you ordered parts for 200+ games to get things in the timelines and quantity discounts you needed... and now you hope you can sell all 200 or be forced to sit on that inventory. Even if Stern is at 100% gross margin on their distributor sales.. that's still only on the scale of about 2k per unit in today's dollars. In 2008, that was more like 1500. 1500 x 3k units is only 4.5million. That's not a lot to fund dozens of professional staffers... maintain a full factory... pay contract labor... actually run the business, etc.

#3664 1 year ago
Quoted from pinstyle:

And that's only 1250 machines....
What about 5000 machines at an estimated $4000 profit? 20 million..
Even if it cost 4 million to develop a game (which is an insane number), there is still a shit ton of money on the table.

Because no one is selling 5k pinballs... that's the super cherry on top Metallicas and ACDC maybe reaching those levels. Stern hits those kinds of levels after YEARS of sales on a title.

You keep flopping around on what numbers to include... you sometimes count dev, sometimes try to count operations and production.. sometimes with the 'if we were world champion production numbers'.. but never all together

Take a look around at who is in pinball production... its Stern and a bunch of passion project people. Not one big time company involved... why is that if there is so much money to be made like you suggest?

Because all those people know it's a slow, high risk, high cost business without high enough returns.

#3666 1 year ago
Quoted from pinstyle:

Jack just called me collect, he said he is doing just fine.
I wasn’t suggesting 5000 of one title. Stern releases two machines a year typically. It was just a rough number with no real timeline attached to it. I stand by what i said originally. No one is in business to be broke with the intent of dragging their business across finishline. I wont base numbers on Pinside either, there is a whole world out there outside of this place. Pinside doesn’t represent the current state of anything. Its just a place where enthusiasts can gather.

nothing stated here was based on pinside... and Stern releases more than 2 titles a year... nothing you've cited has been remotely correct.

you started off correcting people about Stern in 2008... now you're citing wrong numbers from today... you dance and throw shit out haphazardly to dodge being solid on anything. You're ill informed.

2 weeks later
#3709 1 year ago
Quoted from CLEllison:

I can understand the hatred from those who JPOP screwed. But what I dont understand is why the "ill will" towards DR?

It’s called a “dick tease”.

2 weeks later
#3945 1 year ago

Hrm... not impressed.

Building whitewoods or one off games is not really a sign of anything.. except access to resources.

Besides rapid prototyping, why are we bothering with inhouse PCB fab, etc? That stuff is commoditized... It reeks of Heighway again where they think they can do it better/cheaper by doing it themselves... (instead of letting 'experts' excel at their trade).

Reducing soldering to speed up assembly? Again, trying to reinvent the wheel here. They keep using 'slow' soldering for a reason.. reliability and costs. Something tells me that being able to produce 'fast enough' probably shouldn't be at the top of the list in challenges to get 'right' for the first effort.

4 more months to show off 'prototypes'? I think the most 'pinball' thing Deeproot has shown so far is... making the same mistakes as other failed pinball companies.

#3986 1 year ago
Quoted from toyotaboy:

It's not always about better/cheaper. Often processes are brought in-house because it's faster, and you have control. You realize how often a vendor can cripple a manufacturing process because "their line went down", or the BOM goes up because they decide to re-negotiate the price? This isn't necessarily a bad move honestly. Remember when Stern fought with churchhill cabinet? They almost brought CNC in-house over it, but in the end they made up (but it could have had serious effect on production).
We have a stratasys 3d printer at work that cost us $120k, and then there's a $15k maintenance fee. Would it be cheaper to just farm it out to local 3d printer services? Of course, but you wait in queue with everyone else. It speeds up development when you can literally throw in a job before you leave, and have parts waiting for you the next morning.

Oh there are reasons to do it... I should have been more clear in my writing... what I meant was more about a company trying to get off the ground. They should be focusing on what their unique assets are and the things that are difficult to source externally. Use the established vendors as aids to avoid having to ramp up many different capacities and skills.

I can agree the idea of speed in development is useful (hence my reference to rapid prototyping)... but there are so many of these out there and it’s something that is easy to “buy your way out of” if it comes down to it. Just seems like another example of boiling the ocean instead of laser focus and execution.

#4030 1 year ago
Quoted from Roostking:

Be honest, how many people knew what FOMO was, until Levi said it. Not me!

It’s been the center of the LE buying frenzy since Metallica...

1 week later
#4094 1 year ago
Quoted from JodyG:

Glad I am not the only one that sees this crap day in and day out on here.

I just used the ignore feature so I don’t have to

1 week later
#4203 1 year ago
Quoted from toyotaboy:

Maybe it's different with pinball because the most expensive part is the playfield. But in the early 80s with the invent of the Jamma connector, video game operators were gutting any cabinet they could find to put in the next pcb to earn again, often re-using the same buttons/joystick. This was especially true in the late 80s when fighting games brought back the interest to arcades and they were coming out so fast with street fighter and mortal kombat. It's why you now see so many retro arcades with the wrong cabinets and control panels

But the operator market was different then. Things moved FAST. Games were swapped out jamma style because you'd replace a non-earning game with a new one that would earn. Operators would have so many pieces, storage/space was an issue and it was cost effective to repurpose cabinets because if a game didn't earn anymore.. it had no resale value.

Pinball isn't like that these days. You don't have carcasses filling your warehouse.. you don't have off route games that have no value. You aren't putting out AFM on ice to put in MB. There is so much greenspace still that you try to put that AFM somewhere else to earn, or sell it.

TL:DR - unlike the 80s.. the 'out of fashion' game isn't dead weight these days.

2 weeks later
#4356 1 year ago
Quoted from fosaisu:

Really? So you’re saying if I license technology from a company that has not honored its debts to other customers, I assume legal liability for those debts?
I interpreted the settlements with Zidware customers as a PR move to cover deeproot hiring JPop and using some of his old designs without immediately alienating 3/4 of the customer base. But I’m not following your legal argument.

He bailed jpop out by making takers agree to absolve jpop and zidware of their claims.

How do you get jpop to work for you and behave how you want? You bail him out. The agreement frees up the zidware assets to be freed up to be used (transfered, etc) without future concerns,

#4363 1 year ago
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:

And the question certainly remains... “why???”

Robert clearly thinks JPOP is some mastermind that just needs the right environment to produce... so he built that.

#4376 1 year ago
Quoted from Fulltilt:

Everything seems to want to revolve around Jpop.
There are other people on the team, unless I missed the exit announcements.
[quoted image]

The discussion was on 'why bother with the zidware liabilities and jpop'.

All the people deeproot brought in besides jpop... were not tied into the zidware mess... so they aren't really relevant to the discussion.

Robert wanted to extra some value from the zidware/jpop stinkpile... reasons he's sold everyone on 'good will'... which is lawyer speak for 'pre-emptive strike'

#4386 1 year ago
Quoted from Fulltilt:

Last I looked this was a DeepRoot discussion thread. Not a Zidware solvency/resolution thread.

What's your point?

You inserted yourself in a threaded discussion on a matter without respect for the context or the discussion going on.. and now want to play topic police?

Get off your high horse... hate to break it to you, but JPOP is part of the deeproot story.. as is zidware as deeproot are looking to use material that was sourced from zidware. So yes, 'why did deeproot engage zidware customers' is part of the story and its all relevant to a deeproot conversation.

You should do more work before any 'last checks' it seems.

#4387 1 year ago
Quoted from Fulltilt:

Totally agree. But to suggest the other members are irrelevant to the discussion is missing the forest for the trees.

Relevant to deeproot - yes

Relevant to the chain of posts you inserted yourself into ignoring the rest of the posts? No

You can't cherry pick posts in isolation. Well.. you can.. and look stupid.

#4423 1 year ago
Quoted from badbilly27:

Can anyone point me to a form or contact I should reach out to for a refund on my deposit with JPOP for BHZA? I've tried to scan this thread but not doing a good job. Thank you in advance. If easier please PM me.

If you didn’t get in on the goodwill offer long long ago... that opportunity is long gone. The deeproot offer was like 1-2years ago

#4441 1 year ago
Quoted from badbilly27:

I'm not smart enough to troll. A friend texted my cell and told me he read on this thread refunds were offered. He's a moderator and didn't know either.

You are getting half information and getting crossed most likely.

What has happened recently is some zidware customers that had entered into an agreement with Deeproot back when deeproot went public have recently gotten payouts from Deeproot as they opt'd to not wait any longer for the deeproot products they were going to get as part of the arrangement.

Basically deeproot offered zidware customers the opportunity to get credit towards future deeproot games based on the amount they had in with zidware) if they agreed to settle their claims against zidware. Those deeproot games were to be made available to the claimants by a fixed date, or deeproot would offer the claimants a cash settlement if deeproot failed to deliver.

That promised date passed this summer. Deeproot offered people the opportunity to wait longer, or cash out now. Several people have taken the cash out route.. and have gotten their checks.

There are no 'new refunds' going on... this is people exercising their options from the agreement they entered in with deeproot a long ways back.

1 week later
#4519 1 year ago
Quoted from Honch:

I dont know how anybody could maintain confidence in this company.

people gave money to a guy who literally called himself some kid in the basement... so standards are low

#4619 1 year ago
Quoted from wolfemaaan:

Actually you’re wrong, look at their studios page. There main business is not gaming, it’s video &amp; animation. For TV commercials, movies. Gaming is probably next and pinball is a very small portion based on their roster

You are once again late to the party and way I’ll informed. Don’t count sister company,s work as deeproot pinball work and revenues.

#4626 1 year ago
Quoted from wolfemaaan:

Once again, you come with not facts nor even to bother looking at their site.

Because we know more than just what goes into big claims on a website? Why don’t you do yourself a favor and go back to the very start... he’ll even just read the news articles if you want the tidy versions, and get educated.

I’m not “coming with facts” all listed out and organized for you because I’m not your freaking hand maid. I don’t have to make a case because This is all research and knowledge accumulated years ago and common knowledge now. But once again, you come strolling in late, and telling everyone they are wrong because you simply don’t have the baseline understanding Of what is going on.

Go start and learn where deeproot’s money, and leadership come from. It’s selling insurance and investment funds. They started businesses under the deeproot name umbrella. These are startup projects (including their animation group) - not established cash generating businesses.

You seem to be a sucker for big bold claims on a website (Roberts favorite type of customer!). Go try finding the portfolio of clients and past projects of “deeproot studios” instead.

Here... I’ll give you a running start... one piece for you..

Then go back and start with the reading on deeproot’s history and money.

#4632 1 year ago
Quoted from wolfemaaan:

Oh, I didn’t realize your were the CFO of Deeproot and know where they are getting money from.
So do you really think they have no money? Is that large talented staff hanging around for popcorn?
Pinball isn’t their primary business.

Read what was posted - not make up your own stories. I didn't say 'they have no money' - in fact they had lots of money up front. They setup these pinball and digital creative studios with their investment funds... I'm sure they are trying to shop their digital studio for more work as well, but they aren't an established business able to float this thing.

You are under this misimpression that this is some umbrella of companies that decided to start a pinball side biz. That's incorrect. You have a money man who had a business setup to do investment schemes and had made money in prior ventures... who setup this new scheme with some undisclosed seed money. Outsiders do not know who the investors are.

#4639 1 year ago
Quoted from wolfemaaan:

So are you under the impression Deeproot is a Ponzi Scheme and an illegitimate umbrella of companies? I'm confused on what point you're trying to make here.

I said no such thing and am tired of your repeated failures to comprehend or follow basic information. Deeproot pinball and staydio are startups from investment money - that's what is important.

They shown themselves to be well funded to date.

#4645 1 year ago
Quoted from vicjw66:

This will be Wolfemaaan’s next post.

You said earlier that Deeproot hasn’t made any money and now you’re saying they have? Make up your mind.

Did you miss those key words "investors" and "investment"?

Making money and having money are not interchangeable concepts. I said they were well "funded" which means money they had access to. Nothing in the same discussion about "making money".

"Funded" is money coming from investors - not customers

#4666 1 year ago

Junk ratings are junk ratings no matter what the score is. It’s the root problem with the idea of crowd sourced ratings from the start and why the system will never be worth a shit.

#4675 1 year ago
Quoted from Tranquilize:

That doesn't mean Robin and crew shouldn't do their best to try to help alleviate these issues. For example, averaging models helps to calm the excessive ratings of LE owners. To me, this would be common sense design. I Like it or not, the top 100 is the most popular part of pinside, and I felt that before the model
ranking issue, the list was pretty representative of what I consider to be the great, good, average, not so good and garbage machines. Now it has the disease of every new LE in the top 20...

LEs just exaggerate a simple problem that was always there. Most people can’t be objective about something they are heavily vested in. The more money in... the bigger the problem.

Crowd sourced reviews are always going to be junk. Since the reviews are done by those with energy to do it... instead of true random sampling... you don’t get the averaging out of bad reviewers.

Compound this that many reviewers simply don’t know what they are talking about... you get a “popularity contest”... not actual worthy reviews. That’s why new games always surge to the top group of the ratings.

The solution is either vetted raters- or just change it to a simple scale and allow (or solicit users to pump up participation) to acknowledge what they think of a title. Like/dislike/indifferent and list games by their percentages

And “most popular part of pinsidde”? I can’t think of anyone I know that uses it at all... maybe in page views... but how much of that is search engines, etc.

#4691 1 year ago
Quoted from frolic:

I never posted many reviews, but I had to admit to myself I'm biased towards the machines I own, so I stopped participating. If I can have that clarity for myself, then its true for just about everyone, and I haven't even looked at the charts in years.

Another way to view it is... chicken and the egg. Which came first, the buy, or the feeling of greatness. I think all my games are top titles... but that’s because I sourced the games based on the proven play of the game and what I thought of the game. For nib new release buyers... most will sell the games they ultimately decide they didn’t like... but there is a honeymoon period... and when the distinction isn’t that great... it’s harder to be critical on your own buying decisions. Just human nature...

#4692 1 year ago
Quoted from Mr68:

Since Robert has bailed on Pinside, which I believe was a smart move by him, I think it's better served for him to promote Deeproot via a written news release such as this. No judgment on content but I hope to see/hear more of this.

You mean one way promotion where the author controls the message and who is allowed to question or follow up?

It’s why people leave forums and goto twitter or blogs where they can self moderate and control who/if anyone can have an equal platform to respond to their content.

It’s not a good thing - it’s a method to control the message. And Instead of just making a blog post... he sends it to Chris who has a bigger built in audience... and he knows he can swoon Chris into being his amplifier.

It’s manipulation- not progress.

Edit: listening to the clip... probably Chris reached out to him for comment...and Robert just gave his opinion as a hobbyist. Nothing of interest here or even new credible informed opinions

#4696 1 year ago
Quoted from fosaisu:

mr68 didn't call it progress or a good, he said it was a "smart move" for deeproot to stop posting on Pinside. Which it is. There's just nothing to be gained by engaging in back and forth on the forums when you can get your message out just as effectively, under much more controlled conditions, through other venues. Stern and JJP reached the same conclusion, whether it's "good" or not it is a sound business decision.

Engagement is a good thing. - trick is it takes the right kind of people. Completely disengaging is a retreat and just hunkering down. It’s not a good thing for consumers.

#4702 1 year ago
Quoted from fosaisu:

Whether or not it's good for consumers, it's a smart business decision for pinball manufacturers to disengage from forums and stick to controlled media outlets. Doesn't mean you don't monitor the forums and respond to specific complaints offline if necessary. But the imbalance in the risk/reward of actively engaging seems pretty obvious.

Just because these companies suck at it.. doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't be done. Companies as big as Microsoft and others have ambassadors that get engaged and interact.

Pinside is its own worst enemy at times... encouraging trolling and driving the same crap over and over again instead of actively funneling traffic to the buckets it belongs.

1 week later
#4773 1 year ago
Quoted from Fulltilt:

Neither of my Twilight Zones ever had any dimples nor did my Scared Stiff.... but ain't got crap to do with Deeproot.

Sand it with 2000 grit paper and a block... you’ll see it’s probably not as flat as you think... (bring back to gloss with compound then polishes)

Old games seem to dent in big shallow depressions or very shallow spots. The modern games instead seems to make the more visible pits that eventually look like orange peel.

I think the new pfs dent deeper easier... and the high gloss makes it more visible.

Look at these tz photos... see all the black dots and changes in gloss when you zoom in? Those are low points in the sanding...aka divots.

Now look at it after polished... the surface imperfections are more noticeable as divots in the light reflection then they were when the pf was dull

#4781 1 year ago
Quoted from o-din:

Is that a repro or did you get that from vid's collection? He must have bought all the seconds and rejects back in the day. But hey, if the price is right...


my game from the 90s which I had fully broken down 2 years ago.

#4789 1 year ago
Quoted from vicjw66:

You got one with bad wood. I’ve never seen a TZ look as bad as yours. I did the same thing with mine and buffed it to a fine shine with Novus 2 and 1 and there were no dimples on it at all. Certainly some of those old Bally/Williams playfields had dimpling, but relatively few and the dimpling usually wasn’t too bad.

The point was what people think they see... isn't always what they think it is. The PF didn't look dimpled at all before refinishing the surface. It's only when sanding it were the actual individual ball impressions made visible. The idea of 'the entire PF gets beat down' I don't subscribe to, but sanding shows how the PF is not perfectly flat and you likely have a lot more shallow marks all over.

When you look at the PF before.. it looks dirty and dull, but nothing jumps out as 'DIMPLES!'

But when you get just the right reflections... you an pickout the surface isn't really perfectly flat

And when you compare against more virgin areas.. you can see just how much abuse the topcoat really had taken (look at the mini-flipper area near the orange/yellow lines)

When the PF is glossy and otherwise flat on a new pf... the individual ball marks stick out like a sore thumb.

1 week later
#4889 1 year ago

"We will ship more art in 2019 than any other pinball manufacturer ever!"

1 week later
#4988 1 year ago
Quoted from frolic:

As the cash dumpster fire continues to burn.

but you missed the next business venture... contracting out their expertise

Maybe he promoted JPOP to chief strategist

#4989 1 year ago
Quoted from BMore-Pinball:

..."unprecedented 10 year warranty on PF wear and tear (which includes dimples)..."
Major shots fired. If they can pull this off and sell machines with PF that don't blister, dimple, chip, pool etc..... and the games are fun and built well, there will be a lot of buyers

Why would this be a game changer? Most of these NIB buyers don't even keep their game for half that time.

#4991 1 year ago

oh god... this is setting itself up to be a train wreck.

"You cant do what we've done"... boasting that it would take others multi-x longer to reinvent what they've done.. God-complex again. And already saber rattling over defending their 'innovations'. Patent-Troll powers... activate! This guy hopes to blanket as much ground as possible and extort money from others... resulting in stalling innovation for everyone.

"We have some thoughts about how to get the best of all worlds." --- oh look, another "we will solve world hunger" claim.

Prepare for deeproot to be a DeepPain

4 weeks later
#5104 1 year ago
Quoted from pinballonthemark:

I want Deeproot to succeed and for Popadiuk to redeem himself as one of the most prolific designers in the pinball industry! For those that express disappointment for Popadiuk let’s give him another chance to wow us as kids all over again with his designs and allow Deeproot to make this happen

I was going to respond to your points until I got to this point... you're under the spell. No point.

#5146 1 year ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

Patent for a canted, extending arm. Pretty sure there might be some prior art on that one

Arm yes... arm in pinball cabinet to improve access to pf? Thats where you get separation.

#5148 1 year ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

There's absolutely nothing novel about the application.

So show us where it's been done before?

And the patent office disagrees with you.

#5154 1 year ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

It's a canted extending arm attached to a box at each end. The contents of either box has no bearing on the arm, nor the arm on them. There is absolutely NOTHING novel about it.

Secondly, it hasn't been tested in court. You can get granted a patent for virtually anything in the US if you're prepared to file ... see JPop's list of crap. Doesn't mean you'll be able to defend any of them.

Or you don't understand what the criteria really is...

There is certainly enough there to make it novel... A patent doesn't have to use all new undiscovered tech to be novel.. It can be a new use of existing concepts in new novel applications. You may think using a arm is 'obvious', but have you dug into the actual meat of the patent?

You may think this is 'obvious'... but so would a folding backbox right? Yet Wico was able to patent a folding backbox in 1985... years after Bally and others were already doing a folding backboxes... because their patent was about the hinge design to address what they identify as shortcomings with prior folding backbox designs.

Or how about Stern patenting the idea of using LEDs for GI lighting? Yup... they did that.

The deeproot patent covers lots of concepts such as the rotating PF, how they are doing the backbox folding, the different service positions, the mounting, etc.

And while you may point the finger at the US patent process... note deeproot has filed with WIPO - not just the US.

I have lots of problems with this concept.. and patents in general... but simply pointing at it and saying "its just an arm..." is not one of them.

1 week later
#5286 1 year ago
Quoted from vicjw66:

Well, in Levi’s defense, the guys at Stern are so thinned skinned that if you want them to sponsor your New York pinball tournament, you better damn well slobber all over their sac and proclaim everything they do is perfect.

Or is it of his close friends moves to Chicago to work for stern... and so he gets the real skinny on things directly instead of the made up crap pinside thrives on?

1 week later
#5506 1 year ago
Quoted from nogoodnames222:

Why would any animator (when given the task of animating for this aspect ratio) choose to put tall vertical images, portraits, small background details, etc in?

Because they are trying to covey things to people standing 4-8ft away??

At the end of the day the issue is you have a screen with incredibly limited vertical space... that limits what you can display. The bigger the item is, the smaller it must be on the display to actually fit in the vertical limit.. that will make it harder to see from the target distance.

#5507 1 year ago
Quoted from Darscot:

that just seems like a lot of additional cost for virtually no value.

That was JPOP's vision statement for his design studio...

#5517 1 year ago
Quoted from CLEllison:

Please tell me you're joking. If that is the case and if AIW is a title I want, I will be asking DR if it's possible to have a non cleared pf sent to Kruzman and then back to them.

just read the article dude.. it's all explained in there before you jump off a bridge.

TWIP: You’ve discussed that deeproot playfields would be higher quality and more durable (#hammer) than anything on the market currently. Am I correct in saying that the prototype machines at Houston do not have playfields made by deeproot? Have you built any deeproot playfields yet for testing?

RM: We had contracted with Mirco to supply the playfields for the Houston Expo prior to the quality issues being made public. It made the most sense to just use them for this limited purposes, and keep our playfield protection design a mystery. We have tested many samples.

FFS people... a little learning before we put ourselves out there isn't a bad thing.

#5582 1 year ago
Quoted from Multiballmaniac1:

Deeproot gonna slay the competition I just have a hunch.

giphy (7).gif
#5708 1 year ago

Its like people never learn...

They see a prototype and now that company is ready to take over the world.. and hit every promise... and be first to everything...

Its like people forget Dutch had two great looking Finished prototypes as well... how quickly people forget getting to reliable steady level of production is the hard part.

“Octo manufacturing to the rescue!!!!”

#5967 1 year ago

how late is this project that this prototype doesn't have anything but skeleton code running? It doesn't do anything but score and drive the coils. You can get that virtually for free on proc + skeletongame.

I mean.. even suncoast got further than this in a fraction of the time with two guys on a dog... not an entire staff of industry vets plus hiring a bunch of digital artists.

I get not showing your full hand... but they aren't showing anything here except for the art direction and the whitewood for all intents and purposes. Games done by April and shipping in June? and MULTIPLE games?

Either this is the biggest sandbagging of all time.. or all those dates are fantasy. Or at least.. the idea of 'complete' games is..

ETA: Ok, this video shows more..

I still stand by the last statement... even tho there is more there than coils and scores as I saw from earlier videos. Thx DT for chiming in on more detail

#5971 1 year ago
Quoted from zaphX:

Fake news. The game was way more than skeleton game. I guess you missed the mode specific animations, visuals, and smooth transitions.

By the above you mean simply changing the looping video in the main portion of the screen or was there more? Because I didn't see you do anything but flail and not hit anything.

#5972 1 year ago
Quoted from daudioguy:

I don't participate in Pinside much except when I see something completely untrue. For the record: the Houston RAZA code is deep but not wide. By that I mean four modes are completely functional with LEFF, DEFF, audio and rules. The main multiball is complete as well. The end of ball bonus sequence scores and has its AV. Extra Ball is wired in and Deeproot studios created a very funny animation for that. Player select-able Skill-shot and Super Skill-shot is being awarded.....There is more but my point is made.
The remainder of the modes, hurry ups, lane games remain to be done.
There is a lot more to come but RAZA programming is, by far, a lot more than skeleton code.
back to your regular programming

Great to hear.. anyone have any video of the above? Would love to see something besides the idle animations I've seen to date.

ETA: ok, I see this video actually showing something besides boucing around -

If that's the complete main multiball you mention...

#5975 1 year ago
Quoted from noitbe1:

This thread is depressing. Seems like some know everything guys know with 2 poors minutes in video exactly what was coded in this game and know the skeleton framework. Be my guest who has done skeleton games here? My 2 cents.
The game looks great, looking forward to see more.

The reference to skeletonGame was to reference the amount of progress... not to suggest its based on skeletonGame. For a game that has been in the oven for years... this amount of progress was not encouraging.

#6001 1 year ago
Quoted from zaphX:

I doubt you're going to get much better than over-the-shoulder cellphone footage without a proper streaming rig setup.

Dont need that... but how about an over the shoulder video of someone playing a good game... like i dunno... maybe... a very skilled player familiar with the game... like ... i dunno... the #10th ranked player in the world?

Why so hard deeproot?

#6268 1 year ago
Quoted from TecumsehPlissken:

Yeah I heard they had a bad batch of those recently

If by batch you mean over years... yes. The ones recently weren't bad, they were comically defective.

#6339 1 year ago

all of you hoping for dirt cheap games are in for a sad day. The tip off was when 'value' became the talking point of the week... you pump the 'value' point when you want people to forgive the price.

#6373 1 year ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

If Robert allows small batches of games to be built on demand, that would be an innovation and better than Stern. Stern is so big that their run sizes are bigger and it takes them awhile to switchover between titles. The production schedule is more rigid

No. Stern has switchovers nailed down. The reason they build larger batches is for economies of scale not because they are too rigid. Parts have lead times... they have minimum volumes...they get cheaper as you buy more at the same time... you lose production output as you switchover. Stern is highly optimized in they can cutover and be ramping to full speed with minimal productivity loss because they have their production processes and funnels so well defined. Thats why games have minimum runs... not because of size holding them back.

The “small batch” model doesn’t work because its too inefficient and increases per unit costs. You can make it work... you will just have much higher costs per unit, much higher overhead, much lower throughput, and thus much higher prices.

#6414 1 year ago
Quoted from konjurer:

Small batch DOES work. Actually the "optimal" batch size is the best and that's not a large batch. Large batch is inefficient and costly. Large batch thinking is a hold over from the industrial revolution. Large batch means you carry expensive inventory on your books. It's harder to pivot to a new line when your set up for large batches. From a Lean-agile perspective, do to the smallest, most valuable thing first. Companies that create the infrastructure to execute in this fashion may very well eat their competition before they realize they're getting eaten.

The entire frame of reference for this discussion is PINBALL. So 'large' or 'small' means what it means in PINBALL. "large" means units in the 200-500 range, small means dozens.

People are not carrying large game specific inventory when doing the 'large' batch because the batch is large enough to consume the minimum orders... while the small batch is not. The small batch is the one carrying inventory or suffering ordering in inefficient quantities frequently.

The 'large' size in this discussion is already the 'optimal' size because it's the size that has been proven over time to be the balance between efficiency and float risk.

Keep things in context... we're talking about pinball here.

#6453 1 year ago
Quoted from o-din:

So more than Bally/Williams did in 1995 with 9 different titles? Kinda hard to believe if you ask me.
That's almost 1000 a day boxed up and out the door.

100, not 1000.. but still totally bunkus.

#6514 1 year ago

Sounds like Robert is used to being the one that holds the microphone and hence the only one that can be heard.. and can't cope with the environment where others have just as equal voice as he does.

You can easily just ignore the dead-horse beaters and trolls.. and still function fine here. The problem becomes is when the company/individual can't accept they can't shutdown or out-shout the dissenting opinion going against their narrative.

Why would you go on a podcast if you decry the online community? Because it's a broadcast platform - not open turf. Same reason outcasts flock to youtube/podcasting.. they alone control the conversation in their content.

#6545 1 year ago
Quoted from razorsedge:

No, just pinside "expert opinion" ... speculation taken as facts.... again.

Don't fall for the word smithing... 'his money' probably means 'his company's money'... and go and find out where his companies make money from and where he came from. Psst.. none of it is selling hard goods.

#6547 1 year ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Pretty fascinating breakdown teach.
So you teach this stuff in school? This is how you do it, by the textbook? Allow me to play the crusty old do-nothing economics professor to your revolutionary, real world genius Rodney Dangerfield.
Looking to make some money? Enter a crowded, low-margin, niche marketplace where failure is the norm and startup costs are high that you really don't know anything about and try to make a go of it!
Staffing? Hire a bunch of old people off the street who have been out of the industry for years, and make sure the staff is massive. Pay them for years without earning any income.
Launching your first product? Do a half ass prototype reveal at a trade show that is guaranteed to underwhelm!
Promotion? Get online and talk shit about your competition, make promises you continually fail to live up to over 2 years, alienate and insult your intended market, and then hop on to a podcast to talk more shit about the competition!
This is business 101? Where do you teach, may I ask? You know, in case anybody I know is looking for a business school.

Octomanufacturing is the special sauce you haven't accounted for Levi... it's gonna smoke everyone!

It will magically expand the market to absorb a dozen new product releases... it will create product on-demand with no learning curve or forecasts... It will deliver product innovations beyond what any industry experts have been able to flush out in their 50+ years of experience.

It's just so god damn powerful its majesty couldn't be contained with a simple podcast. The 5 days of deeproot will unleash Octomanufacturing on the world and it will never be the same again.

#6596 1 year ago
Quoted from BC_Gambit:

You don't know any of the back story .... and you don't know why people are a bit prickly about this issue.
I wonder if those two things are connected?


#6623 1 year ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

Ok so completely different entity.

or maybe not so different... Just different legal entities... not necessary independent or disassociated entities.

And that's the crux of the matter.. from the outside we will never really know 100% how the operation is funded. We can however use facts and common sense to rule out some things, and theorize others that are likely or not.

One thing is for sure.. just having different legal entities doesn't mean much.. especially when they are part of the same umbrella and ownership. The man has made a career of insurance and securities... it is not far fetched to believe those same skill sets and know-how are going to be leveraged when creating an entity from nothing and spending millions of dollars to do so.

It also fits the scheme of why RM would be so boisterous and acting like prophet. You don't create FOMO by telling everyone 'we will start small and someday hope to be relevant...'

ETA: the only reason we even discuss this topic is because the guy makes claims that defy common understandings and practicalities. When the claims can't possibly make sense numerically.. that reflects on the claims and how people should receive them.

But I guess some people just think getting a game is all this is about...

#6625 1 year ago
Quoted from Fytr:

due to his tendency toward blathering on about basically nothing, groundless conjecture positioned as fact, and horrible mean-spirited personal attacks

That's probably the most succinct description I've heard of his problems yet. Kudos. Add in contradictory and Dunning-Kruger and it should be a pinned FAQ

Quoted from Fytr:

A lot of their innovation is obviously in the design and manufacturing area, which I'm really into so will be interested to see what they've come up with.

"Octo Manufacturing" -- I still put this whole category in "SOME ME THE MONEY". His boisterous claims mean nothing. Maybe "innovation" means being bold enough to do things the other companies won't. Often.. that's for a reason.

Stern is no saint nor perfect company... but what they are is an evolution of decades of experience and knowledge. You don't jump into an industry like this stone cold and claim superiority before you've even taken your first step... because you don't even know what you don't know. Even if you are Elon Musk with almost unlimited money and resources... you can see what it means to try to 'start fresh'. Look at all the learning and evolutions they had to go through to get things we take just take for granted from experienced manufacturers. And even now.. they launch a vehicle that won't even meet basic requirements and safety standards to be sold.

DP needs a lot more than words in this category to earn credibility. They've already shown the common mistakes of most upstarts... so I don't give them any free credits at this point towards them reinventing the process

#6632 1 year ago
Quoted from Fytr:

Well sometimes it takes a fresh upstart not burdened by knowing what doesn't work / is impossible to disrupt the status quo. I'm not giving DR any credit yet, other than it seems like they are genuinely concerned with finding better ways to build better quality games, and than can only be a good thing.

Yeah, but like all good things.. it must be in moderation. I mean, by their own account, look at what it's gotten them so far? 2 years behind schedule? These guys aren't working for free...

And do you want to be the guinea pig paying for the unknown performance of those new ideas? People love risk takers... as long as their own personal risk is low

There is always change and improvement in your products... they aren't (should not be) holding themselves to a single platform they have to future proof forever.. so you gotta stop at some point and say "that is it" and commit to changing "the next one" if its prudent.

At this kind of pace so far... they better be delivering 'earth shattering' things in their games.. not just new hinges, etc. As much as people hated the pegs on Stern Pros... they didn't stop you from buying a game you really wanted.. nor did they make you buy a game when Stern swapped them out. Those kinds of things can only move the needle so far.. they still pale in comparison to the main reason people buy a game.

#6750 1 year ago
Quoted from cjchand:

I spent alot of time playing RAZA and I can tell you that the ramp absolutely was intended to dump out in the middle of the playfield if you didn't make it up to the end of the ramp. It was cut out there specifically to let that happen, ala TOTAN. There's even a set of standups that increase your multiplier right under that area which you can nudge the ball into.

difference is the ramp like totan (and others before it) is done that way to prevent stuck balls. It's a necessary evil when you have ball paths like that. It's not really about 'shooting for the valley'.. it's an expected outcome, but not a 'targeted outcome'.. aka the player isn't TRYING to do that.

I fully support the idea that a shot (can or should) be difficult. But there is a difference between a 'difficult shot that players fail to make' and a 'flawed shot that fails/rejects unexpectedly'.

If the player does everything right and as expected... yet the shot still fails way more than expected.. it should be questioned. Is the shot intended to be 'random' or is it intended to be a makable shot? If it's supposed to be skill and its outcome is dominated not by skill.. then its broke.

The octoberfest beer barrel shot comes to mind. It's just a bad design.

If the ramp is a skill based shot and can't make it consistently when they've done everything right.. it's a bad design. Normally we'd talk about location conditions too.. but not so much anymore.

Requiring shots be made on the fly, etc is fine. But this one just looks like the 'window' where everything must be just right is just too small.

#6751 1 year ago
Quoted from CLEllison:

The end of that article NAILED it. "DR doesn't owe anyone anything so we'll have to wait and see what happens."

They owe people games that they promised for their JPOP settlements.

#6784 1 year ago
Quoted from pinlink:

THE FLIPPER POWER WAS TURNED DOWN. Not sure how many times it needs to be repeated.

Yeah, but physics wasn't... the inherent problems here don't go away with excuses.

1 week later
#6876 12 months ago