(Topic ID: 203700)

deeproot Pinball thread


By pin2d

2 years ago



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Topic index (key posts)

9 key posts have been marked in this topic

Post #111 Firsthand information from the Magic Girl programmer. Posted by applejuice (2 years ago)

Post #3026 RAZA promotional video Posted by vireland (7 months ago)

Post #5771 First RAZA gameplay video Posted by ZMeny (24 days ago)

Post #5874 RAZA video with more audible game sounds Posted by zaphX (23 days ago)

Post #5926 First RAZA video with successful ramp completion Posted by zaphX (23 days ago)

Post #5967 Another RAZA gameplay video Posted by flynnibus (23 days ago)

Post #6050 Closeup pictures of key playfield features Posted by Potatoloco (22 days ago)

Post #6133 Video of display animations Posted by LateCenturyMods (21 days ago)

Post #6329 Summary of Robert Mueller's interview Posted by jeffspinballpalace (19 days ago)


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#886 1 year ago
Quoted from deeproot:

If you only knew how little any of the designers have a role in the process

Depends on how you define "the process".

If you take the manhours of the whole manufacturing afterwards (of all the games made) into account it's propably 0,00X%.

#902 1 year ago

I'm very hopefull that all will be great (we have nothing to loose anyway) but you should hire a PR Person that kinda, uh... smoothens the Statements a little.

#905 1 year ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

I also wonder if they have some kind of plan to dispense with coils.

I have an 80s child pinball machine where 2 slings and 3 Pops are all powered by one motor trough a clever mechanism. They all work individually.

The Pops in a Zizzle machine all hang on the same coil as well I think (and all 3 are fired up if the coil powers up).

99% of the time that's totally sufficient.

#911 1 year ago
Quoted from spfxted:

True, but you just have to question what they do when they hire someone that has fucked over plenty of people and the pinball community. They either don't give a shit....OR, they are really trying to make things right. Only time will tell....

Maybe it's just the most obvious thing: JPop made such great games that people were willingly blowing money up his poopyhole and tha fact that he did mess up doesn't change any of that. There are still a lot of guys around that would buy a modern TotAN or ToM like game if it's reasonably priced.

#929 1 year ago
Quoted from vireland:

American Pinball did a working game to show from scratch in about 4 months, so you have plenty of time if you have their skills and ambition.

With the addition that American Pinball took another 9 months till shipping games wich DeepRoot want's to do immediately.

-3
#935 1 year ago
Quoted from Astropin:

What sucks is one bad apple might destroy the whole thing. Looks like there are some good people involved (hired) with deeproot. It's unfortunate that many (including myself) will not buy anything from them as long as JPOP is on the payroll. (period). But that's up to them...they have a choice.

Jpop is not XXXXX.

#951 1 year ago
Quoted from frolic:

The unfortunate thing is, we know the road from showing a demo game at a pinball show to delivering games to customers is even longer than the road was getting that game to the show in the first place.
So nothing means anything until customers have games. The countdown to TPF means nothing to me, because manufacturing is the challenge, not creating the pinball.

Well, he says he want's to show them only when they're ready for delivering.
That's the REAL challenge and I'm looking forward what comes out of this.

#957 1 year ago
Quoted from frolic:

We'll reconvene here in a year and see how we're doing.

We'll be doing fine I hope. Let's see how they do.

#1021 1 year ago
Quoted from hank527:

When one of those old guys is Jpop then there is concern. What has he ever done right in pinball?

Right Flippers, right outlanes, right ramps...

#1022 1 year ago
Quoted from singapore_pin:

that's make a lot of sense. Just like Apple folded after Steve Jobs kicked the bucket.....

Wich is exactly what happened after firing him 1985.

3 weeks later
#1101 1 year ago

The one who can't be named cause it gets you permabanned.

1 week later
#1205 1 year ago

Ever since hearing Deeproot kinda 'reinventing' production, I'm intrigued. Maybe even more then with the resulting products themselfes.
(Wich may come from me havig worked in automotive development internationally, so I'm used to 'dumb it down' for easy production/ less modell variants/ cost effectifeness.)

Obviously there are things an established manufacturer wouldn't change (may it only be because he has a blind eye for it, working like he always was for a lifetime) but would stand out as outdated for someone fresh going trough the whole process.

Things that come up in my mind:
Problem - The problem with manufacturing a playfield is that it is mainly one piece that has to go through a line, worked on from both sides, while only it can be worked on from one side at the same time.
Solution(s) - In the MMR we allready saw a pretty much "one board design" for electronics under the playfield. But why not make a "sandwiched playfield"? One sheet of wood to screw in all the bottom mechs, one for the top. Woudn't work with wood? Why use wood? If you could "mold" a playfield (bottomside) why not mold it with all the mounting brackets allready in place?

Problem - Every mech has it's own 'coil', that's a lot of parts, therefore cost, weight and wiring work.
Solution(s) - You could potentially for instance use 1 Coil for all 3 Pops, so that all 3 of them fire at once if one is activated. You could also use one coil/ motor to drive a lot more mechs and all of them individually with some mechanical solution, for instance found in the TOMY 80's Toy Pinball. This Toy has some masterful engineering inside with 1 Motor driving 2 Slings and 3 Pops (and other stuff). The Motor drives a shaft witch rotates constantly. When the Ball hits a Pop, the 'switch' hits the rotating shaft and fires it back up, same with every other mech.

What do you think would be 'great' manufacturing optimizations?
Molded Cabinet out of plastic? Consumer Versions without Coin Door? Hamster in a wheel driving it all?

Tell me your (insane?) ideas!

#1208 1 year ago
Quoted from OnTheSnap:

are coils really more expensive than complex linkages and a gearbox?

Depends.

You could cut the switches as long if you don't get "points" for hitting something specific.
(Like the slings.)

Of course, that whole thing would not be feasible in a home environment because it makes a constant noise and is to delicate for an Arcade.
It would work in a more toy like environment. (Original Size but way cheaper.)

But like written, one coil driving 3 Pops at once wouldn't be a big deal for most people.

#1209 1 year ago
Quoted from Brijam:

Perhaps, if the interactivity were good enough, and the graphics and video game aspect were good enough you could have gameplay so good that you wouldn’t need traditional ramps and such, and you could cut down on the physical costs. However, your production costs will skyrocket, and speaking as someone in the video game industry, that stuff ain’t cheap.

It can be cheap depending on how much units you sell...

...Yes, it's expensive!

#1226 1 year ago
Quoted from 27dnast:

We really need a manufacturer capable of pumping out games in a timely manner, while offering prices that beat Stern. Something that can push innovation and start driving prices down.

I try to temper my expectations (it would be kinda dumb to be way cheaper than Stern, while having made a huge investment upfront) but no matter what comes out of this, it'll change the bar. That we have handdrawn artwork back is thanks to Zidware, LCD thanks to JJP and so on...

#1249 1 year ago
Quoted from toyotaboy:

Zombie Yeti being snarky:[quoted image]

Awesome trolling.

#1274 1 year ago

Why does the Deeproot link link to the LCD vs DMD thread?!

Pinside broken?

#1324 1 year ago

Could you honestly discuss this somewhere else?

#1361 1 year ago
Quoted from benheck:

"Better than reality" - you could do visual tricks like Zen Pinball. Things that can't possibly be built. Should keep it to a minimum, what I'd do is have cool mechs that would be too expensive / fragile for a real game, but still feel physically possible.

One part of the "magic" of pinball is to watch (real) physics in action,... and tricking it with loops, magnets, VUKs, backkickers and stuff.

And I personally can't stand Zen Pinball for exactly that reason.

So like you say it has to at least "feel" possible (for me).

3 weeks later
#1417 1 year ago
Quoted from YKpinballer:

Meh, this guy seems like another pied piper to me.
[quoted image]

I see no flute.

#1424 1 year ago
Quoted from YKpinballer:

And how is posting relevant info about deeproot a troll post? Actually never mind, I don’t want to have a 10 post debate of you defending that comment, this thread has been derailed enough. Just want iceman to tell us his impressions after seeing the facility.

Since when is "This seems like ****" relevant Info?

#1453 1 year ago
Quoted from Brijam:

That must be some European terminology. Do you mean stock options, a profit sharing plan, or something different?

This money thingy!

2 weeks later
#1457 1 year ago
Quoted from deeproot:

deeproot is announcing the addition of Steven Bowden to its ‘Future Worlds with deeproot Pinball’ seminar panel at 5:15pm on Friday 10/19 at Pinball Expo.
Steve has only been with us for six weeks but has pounded more ingenious rule script than the best in the biz. It’s been a treat to see a master at work.
— Robert dT

Very much looking forward to that.
I hope there will be a stream.

I have one question:
When ramping up production and starting domestic sales next year,
how quick do you intend to get CE certification and start sales overseas?

1 week later
#1491 1 year ago
Quoted from Only_Pinball:

I was thinking more along the lines of just a screen with a sound bar vs a more traditional head with LCD inside it.

I hope not. I like to know what game is in my room before I turn it on.
And I like it to look good turned off sitting in my office.

Don't like the JJP solution, but at least there is a tiny Translite around the screen.

I like the Stern Solution best.
AP is great also.

#1492 1 year ago

The "never before seen mechs" and "Bally/ Williams style" part excites me.

Sterns a little barren. JJP overcompensates...
Would be nice to have a middleground with not only Houdini in it.

#1495 1 year ago

Me again (but this time in front of a PC, so I can write my toughts down a little bit more elaborately).

I'm quite excited of what I read and thanks Jeff for reporting as much as you can, while still beeing secretive and sharing your passion, while still beeing objective.

We know now for sure that it will be pinball (well I never doubted that) and it will have innovative mechs/ Baly Williams Vibe (wich is something I really long for in a not totally overpriced game, and only Amercian Pinball does that at the moment).
I'm on the brink of being able to buy a NIB game again; allready picked it. But I am very tempted to wait what Deeproot has in stock for us next march.

I don't quite believe that all 5 games will be ready for sale in march, but I happily get proven wrong.

#1547 1 year ago

I love Blade Runner but how the hell can you do a pinball (Action) out of this?!

#1551 1 year ago

Blade Runner is a slow movie with slow music and nearly no action,... not the ideal theme for a fast flowing game of pinball.

#1565 1 year ago
Quoted from Brijam:

I would Daft Punk up the soundtrack, though.

Yeah. I mean "Terminator 2" did not use the Main Theme in game for a reason I think.

#1625 1 year ago

Running man would actually be an awesome Pinball license... and fitting for "sparks & smoke".

#1628 1 year ago
Quoted from DavidPinballWizz:

Top Gun (remake next year)

Didn't know that.

Plz let Steve Ritchie do this. Just take a Stern Star Trek and Retheme it into F-14 Tomcat 2.
Vengeance become General Yagovs Plane, and the F15 sits where the Enterprise sits in the Premium/LE.
Astroids become clouds. Warp Ramp becomes Barrel Roll.
DO A BARREL ROLL!!!

Awesome!!!

Instant Buy.

Why'd nobody ever moddet this? Let's do it!

NOW!!! GOGOGO!!!

#1638 1 year ago
Quoted from branlon8:

this is a fun thread. Everybody just posts random pictures and says silly things!

I don't know if Robert thinks this is funny and I wonder why the moderators are keeping silent, but in general I like that the tone is getting way more releaxed and we're kinda anticipating/ looking forward to whatever comes out of deeproot. And that's a good thing.
Thanks to Jeff, I suppose.

#1669 1 year ago
Quoted from jonesjb:

Will Deeproot be doing a Back to the Future with the original voices? Or will they be voice actors?

Definatly one of this.

#1672 1 year ago

Bttf the Telltale Game has a real great sound alike

Quoted from vicjw66:

I heard they hired Michael J. Fox to do the artwork but he will not do any voice call outs.

#1675 1 year ago

Ok,... 4 left.

Quoted from Shapeshifter:

Hmmm, unlicensed space invasion? [quoted image]

#1695 1 year ago

Will you do a livestream of your seminar?

#1707 1 year ago
Quoted from jellikit:

Expo deeproot.
[quoted image]

Is that backhead on the left George Gomez?

#1710 1 year ago

At least thanks to "pinball news" now I have a face to associate with Robert Müller.

#1730 1 year ago
Quoted from c508:

Would have been even better if some people stood up and turned their backs to him or walked out during his intro!

Then why go in there in the first place if you intend to leave?

That's not showing anything in the leaving persons favor, to say it very mildly.

-1
#1741 1 year ago
Quoted from c508:

The point would be to publicly insult and shame him (if J-Pop had any shame).
Maybe “turning your back on a speaker” or “leaving the room” isn’t a thing that is done in Germany?

As I said there's a difference when you intentionally go there... just to leave.
That's just plain childish.

If you come by by accident that's completely diffent.

That just noone applauded is the right thing to do.

#1755 1 year ago
Quoted from c508:

I don’t think it’s any different than students protesting a controversial speaker at a university (like Mumia Abu Jamal or Charles Murray) or constituents calling out a politician on his/her bs at a “town hall” event.

They're protesting. Not leaving.

It's just irrational to go somewhere with the only goal to leave.
Well... Unless you're going to work.

Not applauding is a good, adult like form of protest, not interfearing with the Seminar. Wich is how it was made, because noone thought yelling "JPOPSHEREIMOUT!!!" Is a good idea.

#1773 1 year ago
Quoted from knockerlover:

I’m germany they will just make Jpop drive a car of slightly inferior quality..

Lika a "Ford"?

#1774 1 year ago
Quoted from c508:

This must be some kind of cross-cultural misunderstanding. In the US, showing up at an event like this and walking out IS THE PROTEST.

Ok. But if it's common why'd noone do this?

I think everyone is more or less excited and wanted to hear what deeproot has to say while still protest against Jpop. So they did, alltogether, with not applauding for him but still having a nice evening.

It's a pinball show. You're there to have fun!

#1778 1 year ago
Quoted from o-din:

Same reason as usual. Because he can.[quoted image]

I have no idea what you want to say, but the guy is pretty. :-*

#1779 1 year ago
Quoted from vdojaq:

That's your choice to make for yourself. Not a choice for you to make for me or anyone else.

Well,... noone "needs" any pinball machine.

#1789 1 year ago
Quoted from c508:

people were there to have fun (not make organized statements about poor business practices like hiring a known fraudster whose victims successfully sued him).

If you write it that way it sounds kinda funny (to someone whos not involved with this of course). XD

#1790 1 year ago

So with the seminar and what JPop says...

I keep in mind that he can not openly apologize to the people for legal issues, even if this would be kinda nice.

But him saying that you have to deliver the game (and not take 4+ years), that he has to "get over it" when someone else makes changes or that he sticks within his "role" in the team (and let the others do theirs and what they do best), I think this is the best confession we will get.

And he seems quite enthusiastic so, yeah... It's easy for me to say beacuse I didn't loose any money but I'm looking forward to this.
He's the mad genius; keep his artistic vision intact as good as possibe (I have a little fear over the 3D rendered Magic Girl) but get it running.

And I like that they want to tell a "story" (I hope it's not marketing BS), because the lack of this (or any kind of connection between "modes") is what kills many games for me that could easily have one. (Like Deadpool.)
JPop does tell a little Story in TotAN, and he tells it in one sentence when you start up the machine. You KNOW you have to battle the Genie to free the princess. That is the best story in the world used in smash hits like Super Mario and Double Dragon. Save the Girl!

Maybe they'll never deliver... ever. But that's ok. For me they help me 'save' money, since I'll (most likely) wait with my next purchase till their reveal (with all new Stern resell prices recently dropping increasingly fast).

#1794 1 year ago
Quoted from solarvalue:

I listened to the seminar. I thought it was OK, pretty standard for a new company seminar. Sure Robert Mueller made a few big claims but I guess he's a salesman a bit like Jersey Jack. Seems like they have assembled a fairly large team of people, not just of designers but engineering and software staff as well. A few take-aways:

You forgot: Magic Girl Ball now float's mid-air... kinda.

#1797 1 year ago
Quoted from knockerlover:

How is that positive that they didn’t reveal anything?

Just imagine: How would Stern survive all this "dark nights" of overpromising?

1 week later
#1838 1 year ago
Quoted from thedarkknight77:

Who will be the distributors for Deeproot?? Is it possible they are going to try and go direct to keep costs down?? I cannot imagine Stern allowing their distributors to sell games from both companies.

You could at least assume that they'll try to control that; they did as far as I know in some cases.

Bute widely/ internationally that's not even possible; the distribution network is too thin.

#1842 1 year ago
Quoted from Captain-Flint:

I heard they wanted to ship them out themselves. Tall order if you ask me.

Lol, you could read the opposite from Deeproot itself right above you.
(Ok, granted you propably were higher up the thread when reading that post you answered to.)

You misheard that, that was about the customer service when something is broken.
They said that they prefer to do that themselfes (since they know their own machines better).
Wich is still a tall order of course, when you think of worldwide distribution.

#1858 1 year ago
Quoted from jonesjb:

Wouldn’t that be illegal?

Why would it?

You're free to choose your business partners.

It questionable of course, but not illegal.

#1870 1 year ago
Quoted from deeproot:

This is fake and illicit use of our logo. Our law firm is contacting the authorities for original creator, and any subsequent posters, as this directly impacts our current and future relationships with IP holders.

And this is why I think Dead Flip would not dare to fake a Bill & Ted Pinball image with the Stern logo on it.

#1875 1 year ago
Quoted from pickleric:

Oh man, I was excited you guys had BTTF. Still excited regardless, can't wait for TPF.

If Jeff saw the party leftovers over a freshly aquired license that license will 99,9% not be in the initial launch lineup.

#1876 1 year ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

I don't think Stern much care, all talk is good talk as far as they're concerned***, particularly when it's their 'brand ambassador' doing the talking.
*** Unless it's about Spike1/2 boards, splitting cabinets, late & abandoned code, or playfield quality.

Please read what Robert wrote.

Yes Stern would allow DF to use their logo, but it's about hurting relations with other business partners just using that logo and slapping it over their intellectual property without asking.

1 month later
#2217 11 months ago

I'm late to the Party with the last announcement but while I'd like for them to have made the date:
To announce that they will not be able to make it MONTHS in advance speaks for them.
(That means that they have a real plan, with Milestones and such, that made them REALIZE that.)

Remember CGC that on the last days announced MBR will not make it or Heighway with it's in "two weeks".

#2219 11 months ago
Quoted from jonesjb:

Was Deeproot’s logo designed in house or by an external agency?

Excremental Agency if you do the analogy.

#2223 11 months ago

I'm very sorry I just wanted to make a joke about you joking about that logo; not starting another logo discussion. -_-;

4 weeks later
#2284 10 months ago
Quoted from mrclean:

Speaking of Deep Roots in my backyard (these guys trample lawns when not using hoverboards).....I'm first hearing about all of this now, is a BTTF remake updated version from Deeproot really a possibility ?! I've always loved the theme, but to me the Data East version is lack luster. I recently just got two Boxer Puppies just turned 1! their names are Doc Emmett Brown & Marty McFly ! (Doc's the white one, Marty McFly is the black & white one)
[quoted image]

Dont they have to have your last name?

2 weeks later
#2299 10 months ago
Quoted from Dkjimbo:

So does Deeproot have the BTTF license? And maybe a brighter question if so, how did JJP and or Stern already not have that locked down!?

Robert, Jack & Gary can answer that.

#2315 10 months ago
Quoted from SirScott:

I thought they are doing Octo Assembly now? Either way, this newfangled manufacturing is going to be awesome!

It's hard to train that Octopus.

1 week later
-1
#2379 9 months ago
Quoted from HeavyMetalBalls:

Yesterday Kaneda talked a little bit about deeproot. He said a buddy of his has seen what's going on at deeproot and when they launch it's gonna blow everything out of the park.

I hope they don't land on the street and get run over by a car.

Edit:
Adressing the downvotes: Why do you wish any people physical harm? Shame on you!

#2404 9 months ago
Quoted from Roostking:

Why would you wish deeproot to fail?

I wouldn't. How do you get to such a conclusion?

I'm very much looking forward to what will be revealled.

#2414 9 months ago
Quoted from JodyG:

$2500 profit? What kind of fantasy land are we living in here?

Pinball

#2432 9 months ago
Quoted from fanuminski:

well then , how many pins would a pin player play if a pin player could play pins?

All of 'em?

3 weeks later
#2456 9 months ago

Sicne it was expicetely said that the 5 days of deeproot don't have to be 5 consecutive days before the final reveal on day 5/ TPF (wich is cancelled) I'd REALLY like deeproot to have their first day of deeproot at TPF. - It wouldn't be contradictory.

#2466 9 months ago
Quoted from frolic:

there is a whole lot of money being lit on fire at DR

Not necessarily agreeing with you with the rest but yes, with an expected launch this week that had to be blown off and not having even an estimate for the new launch, there's whole lot of expenses and no income for a whole while longer. - I hope they can shoulder that.

#2488 9 months ago

Let's just all agree that we want to see/ hear SOMETHING from Deeproot this TPF.

#2513 8 months ago
Quoted from dannylite:

Deeproot "couldn't" care less if they {never} made a pin.

They invest a lot of money at the moment, wich would be completely burned if they don't manage to generate some income out of it, so...

....care to elaborate?

#2516 8 months ago
Quoted from Richthofen:

It isn't their own money, so...

...that that proves that they have the trust of others that they're no frauds.

#2518 8 months ago
Quoted from JodyG:

PT Barnum had a saying about that...

I thought the "pinside =cancer" thing was Steve Ritchie?

#2526 8 months ago
Quoted from Richthofen:

Andrew Heighway had a whole company full of people who trusted him. And a ton of customers that did too.
JPop also had a ton of customers who trusted him.
Kevin Kulek was trusted by many depositors.

They all had customers with too much wishful thinking, not investors or other successfull business.
That's the biggest difference here, as we all know and was stated a couple of hundred times allready.

I personally didn't trust any of those endeavours and propably woudln't with deeproot but the nice thing is: I don't need to!
If they ship games, I may buy one if I like it. If they don't, I don't.

I root for options, very much liking the way AP is taking for more feature packed games and like to see more if this.

#2535 8 months ago

So... nothing, nothing, not even the slightest hint of anything on TPF?

2 weeks later
#2672 8 months ago

OMGH, this is awesome!!!

Finally not having to smudge the glass, havibng enough room to pull it out, hope it doesn't fall over or gets scratched (come on nearly everyone here lost a playfield galss allready), we can solder on the playfield without standing on a stool or disconnecting the playfield...

Yes it is not "essential" but I love it anyways and I'm happy someone is rethinking this stuff.

#2674 8 months ago
Quoted from frolic:

https://www.thisweekinpinball.com/this-week-in-pinball-april-8th-2019/

Scrapped, but I wonder how much time and resources were spent on the scrapped idea. In light of them totally missing their TPF debut and no future dates announced at all.

"Mostly".

I guess the mechanism holding the playfield would be costly, but the liftable glass or the backbox hinges seem feasible.

They said they'd re-evaluate every aspect of the construction of a game and they sure do...

#2680 8 months ago

Why are you guys discussing swappable playfields when there are none?

#2685 8 months ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

I'm sorry did I miss out on all the other fabulous Deep Root news we should be talking about instead?

You did miss out that (all of) you are disussing some feature wich doesn't exist/ is not mentioned in this patent.

That said, feel free to continue discussing off-topic stuff. *insert mom-joke*

#2687 8 months ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Speculation in a Pinside thread?[quoted image]

Sorry, I forgot why no major manufacturer posts here anymore...

#2689 8 months ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

That's ok! Deep Root still does.

"Major manufacturer"

Let's discuss haircuts!
I have one.
(At least partially.)

#2691 8 months ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Dude that's a low fucking blow.
Not all of us have hair.

SCNR!

Apologies.

#2715 8 months ago
Quoted from Zavadoza:

I was at Barry Oursler's house 2 nights ago, and there is no denying this Wonka hype train!
Here's a couple clues though: JPop's RAZA is first release. Then Barry's game, then Dennis Norman's. Not simultaneous release. Still working out software on RAZA and getting parts in for manufacturing. Probably a couple months away.The Utah studio team is apparently large and talented.
This is all pretty common knowledge. I don't pester those guys for inside stuff. The excitement from people working at deeproot: Steven, Barry, Dennis is genuine and I think most will be happy with what they put out.
[quoted image]

Didn't they want to reveal 5 games at once?

Would be cool if they really could manage that, to start with a small lineup of games. Because even if their first game turns out great, no matter what it is, it' can't please everyone themwise/ artwise/ whatever... (Wich is exactly my problem with JJP.)

#2720 8 months ago
Quoted from wolfemaaan:

Wonka just fizzled, so it’s really up to Deeproot now.

Yes. Deeproot and American Pinball (I like their efforts minus the art very much) are our only hope to get back some Williams-esque Pinball Magic at an yet not too astronomical pricetag.

#2745 7 months ago
Quoted from Maide:

It's basically impossible to live up to the hype, so let's all just hope for some good games; we've had some great ones already in the past couple years.

That is right.

But... if they really can beat Sterns Pro pricepoint with a 'good' game, that's the best I could hope for.

#2751 7 months ago
Quoted from Rondogg:

It's really odd they haven't made some kind of announcement/tease. With BK3 and WONKA released you would think they would try and prevent some of those sales with some kind of announcement before people make financial commitments. Silence does them no good.

Announcing something and not being able to deliver is bad as well.

I don't think it's good that JJP showed us Willy Wonka allready while not being able to ship for 60 days (wich was the intended schedule for Pirates as well). We all know people jump off after a while. Not because the game is bad but because the buzz is gone and the next new thing is allways interresting, at least if the game is not 95% tailored to your interrest.

If I'd have the money I've ordered the new Black Knight at first sight.
I couldn't. - Now that I've waited a couple of days I notice what I may not like (too hard, knight does not shake, repetitive music) so I want to play it first.

The best game of all time is available new from CGC, wich is Medival Madness!
I just don't want to afford a 20+ Year old game at Stern LE price.
(Maybe they Re-Release it at the Monster Bash Pricepoint.)

When I got into pinball it was because of Arabien Nights, and I wanted one!
But I never got one, because I would not pay more for an 20+ year old beat down game as for a new Stern Pro.
If Deeproot can manage to make Magic Girl work (and plz don't change the tone/ artistic style of the game) at a Stern Pro pricepoint I'm in at day 1. Even at Premium pricepoint propably at day 2.

So I am very much looking forward to this.
(And I can only win. Either I get a great game or save me some money. )

#2752 7 months ago
Quoted from lpeters82:

first hire was JPop.

People love his games, that's why they all fell for him... again, and again and again...

#2757 7 months ago
Quoted from cjchand:

Speaking of money, I don't get why people are concerned about how much money they're burning through. It's all coming out of Robert's wallet, so why should we care?

It's just frolic.

Well, to be fair:
Robert mentioned it himself, when they announced the delay but couldn't give a new date.
"We are spending over $750k a month now on this project, and that will increase through launch. That is unsustainable without a launch in the short term."
via https://www.thisweekinpinball.com/deeproot-pinball-launch-postponed/

#2762 7 months ago
Quoted from toyotaboy:

i would.. its hard, music is repetitive (hope they fix in code update).. also shield is also falling off already[quoted image]

I've listened trough the music in pinball browser and I'm very positive that'll get more variety.

#2791 7 months ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Btw, thank you for the best audio package on a pinball machine ever in Alien.

Off!!!

Back to your CGC-Alien Thread.

#2802 7 months ago
Quoted from daley:

I did not see this posted in this thread (so sorry if already shared): https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=60&v=opAK-32MfJM

Wow. I'm not into that villains (?) character design but alltogether that's pretty awesome.

If this is the intro to the machine that would hint to an ultra widescreen display. I'd like that waaaay better then what JJP does. I prefer a reasonably sized backglass!

#2815 7 months ago
Quoted from adol75:

Cool, they've made a cgi intro movie. Can we see a pinball machine now ?

That is not CGI.

#2860 7 months ago
Quoted from adol75:

I was thinking the exact opposite, what’s the point in putting the screen behind the playfield when there is plenty of space in the backbox ?
Unless they go for some backbox thing like CV or BR.

It's where you can actually see that AND, if replacing the backboard, it could add a whole lot to the game.
The whole Black Knight SoR Fire panel in the back wouldn't have to be engineered if it was for an LCD back there. Plus you could actually show us how we're nearing the castle and fighting the monsters.

#2862 7 months ago

The "point of the backbox" is not neccessarily to hold your DMD/ LCD anymore, it's there to gain your interrest and attract players.

In this regard, something like Stern does, with a still pretty big translite/ backglass and explanations how to start a game on the LCD is a pretty safe bet.

JJPs Backglass is pretty tiny, so the LCD does that job. If placed in a mixed lineup they sure stand out, but if lined up in a row that sure is some information overflow...

And from that point of view it's understandable why you don't mind AP LCD work when playing, but may be not feel attracted when looking.

#2866 7 months ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

"This game would cost $2k to make"
[quoted image]
In reality it would look like this...
[quoted image]

First off you have to think outside of the box when it comes to driving the cost down.
Example: Track the Ball with a camera, therefore get rid of a lot of switches, use less wiring, less nodeboards etc. and maybe get the thing to work with a common & cheap Raspberry Pi without too much addons because you can use less connections.

Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

No matter what they charge, it comes down to EBIT and revenue per widget moved out of the building.
Just doing some simple math, at 750k a month going out, if they have operated at that burn rate for 6 months and will operate for 6 more months before steady revenue, that is 9 million dollars in the red.
If they make even a very generous 3k per machine they get out the door, that is 3000 games they have to sell to even recoup that cost, not counting the ongoing burn. With these numbers they have to ship 250 games a month to break even.
I think im being very generous with the 3k profit per machine too.
The math/business case on this is rough. I wonder when we will see a SaaS model in pinball.

Break-even for most endeavours is at around 7 years. (How long is JJP on the market now?)
So make that a max. 1000$ margin and it's still looking good.

And if you don't have the resources to survive that investment in the long haul you better shouldn't even try.

-1
#2873 7 months ago
Quoted from Richthofen:

They could be outsourcing the animation to overseas studios. Might save them up to 80% of the cost of having domestic animators.
even so, 40 animators is insane. You can't just drive to the Blicks parking lot and pick up animation day laborers and toss them at a project. When you have 40 animators, you need a team of something like 6 or more art directors, and then of course project managers funneling this work into a pipeline, reviewing and making changes, etc. I've worked at design agencies with > 100 employees whose job was to produce commercial art for clients events like trade shows, etc. At no point did we have 40 designers or animators or video people. You need people to manage and coordinate that level of staffing, so if you have 40 animators your total firm should probably be at least 120 total employees. My guess is for a company like Stern, they have 10 graphic designers / animators on staff full time. Stern puts out what 4 games a year? (double checking, linkedin shows 11 people with art/graphics job titles, although one seems like an intern. and Jeremy Packer is a contract artist from what I understand not a full time employee).
All this and let's face it, a lack of animation has never been the reason a pin hasn't shipped. (Remember the original game of thrones video mode graphics )

The "40 animators" don't sit at Deeproot Pinball 24/7 working on pinball games but in another (video game related) Deeproot subsidiary wich they have access to.

I don't get why people have to rethink the companys (investment) structure?

Trailer looks very nice, if the games live up to that: Great!

If nothing comes out of this: Bummer.

How they make it: I don't care.

2z93z7 (resized).jpg
#2876 7 months ago
Quoted from Richthofen:

Because several pinball companies / startups have failed.
Because deeproot hired one of the chief architects of a major failure
because deeproot has said "pinball is easy", then failed to deliver on their TPF 5 days of deeproot

These "companies" were Single-Person startups with no own budget to speak of (wich is why they had to collect money in advance) wich were pretty much doomed to fail from the start. (And yet there's still more positive thinking in the Alien & TBL Thread then here.)

They hired JPop, a guy with no salesmanship whatsoever that dug his grave even deeper announcing more & more machines to keep getting money so that the biggest fool could get that he is a fraud, but he still was showered with money because people want his games.
(And here is a company standing completely on their own feet delivering these, getting shat on for this.)

And for the 5 days of deeproot... granted us a little bit of schadenfreude.
Can't argue against those bold statements. Reading those announcement why they won't make it to TPF reads skills shortage in assembly, wich is quite typical.

#2877 7 months ago
Quoted from Seraph:

It's interesting that the video never said "pinball."

You should watch that again.

#2879 7 months ago
Quoted from zeddex:

OK - so there goes your 7 years and millions and millions of dollars for R&D, proto-typing and testing this to get it somewhat reliable. What about multiballs? Fast Moving balls? Subways? VUKs? To save $200 per machine in physical switches? Hey, I'm sure that technology could be dialed in, but it would be a huge front loaded and time soaking dev cost.

As you say yoursef you couldn't replace them entirely (I don't think you save close 200$ either, even if you count in the whole assembly) and the whole thing as well is just an example.

But developing this -one time- can save a lot of money -every time- and DeepRoot has the capital to the development costs (to a certain degree of course).

On the other end look at JJP. - They needed a solution to drive their machines and enough power to drive that big LCD.
They saved a lot of development cost buy 'just using' a common PC, instead of developing their own "Spike System" but they pay for that with every machine they ship.

#2882 7 months ago

I don't want to sound like "K" with "I'm a marketing guy, I'm a marketing Guy" but:

I worked as senior automotive consultant in developing and setting up/ optimizing manufacturing processes locally and overseas.
I might be totally wrong about everything that goes on with Deeproot, because I have as less clue as you what they're doing.
But I do know a little bit of what I am talking about.

And while I think many of those "rethinking" pinball (manufacturing) processes will lead to a dead end you will stumble over stuff that noone knows anymore why it is done the way it is and will get completely overhauled.

The "recession" mentioned above could actually help them, if machines get to be significantly cheaper then a Stern Pro.
Or in other terms: A recession is the best time to invest! (Wich is my sole opinion.)

#2883 7 months ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

Tracking the ball with a camera would just mean horrible latency, even if it worked 'perfectly' otherwise - which it certainly wouldn't.
Hopefully JPop won't read this as it'll give him money wasting ideas.

Where would that horrible latency come from?

JPop is not in technical development.

Edit:
The camera does not send it's picture over the internet, there's no TV Output lag and it doesn't need to interpret a motion like Microsoft Kinect does.
In a Videogame the game can only interpret your command AFTER your movement is completely finished. Then the program does it's job and due to buffering and post processing of the TV itself you a have a noticeable lag.
In the "replacing switches" examples it is:
If Ball = PositionX { execute command }
It doesn't matter where the ball came from, wich ball (multiball) it was, it may start just working like normal pinball machine.

THERE IS a lot of other problems though, wich makes my idea not feasible.
But again, it is just meant as an example.

#2887 7 months ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

From processing time. Also, for multiball you'd likely need an AI based solution with an expensive accellerator such as those sold by NVIDIA or AMD. The notion that this would save money and time is patently ridiculous.

Well, see above. Edited that in.
You're totally overthinking it, you don't need to track motion.

Main problems why this is not feasible would be: Traking when the machine goes dark, what if something obstruses the view, etc.

#2890 7 months ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

It would be a problem. Also, where do you think the cameras would go? Cameras because they'd have to be below the playfield glass and therefore there'd need to be several of them. They couldn't go in the head and expect to have a useful view, and at that angle reflections would be terrible. A seperate external overplayfield mount would be rejected by locations and a lot of home buyers, and would still suffer with reflections.
Not just dark, but light too. LEDs are bright.
From just about every perspective it would be crazy to even try.

Some of this stuff I allready answered explicitely.

There is no need to prove me wrong, because I don't say I'm right.
I myself wrote: "THERE IS a lot of other problems though, wich makes my idea not feasible."

But there is room for re-thinking.

Edit:
The "Tipper" in the cab (the patent they have) is showing that, altough this thing will propably never be built (too expensive for that rare usage).
If they do the backpanel of the game as an LCD that's interresting as well.
I myself like to see what they'll do to get the manufacturing cost down by "re-thinking".

#2899 7 months ago
Quoted from toyotaboy:

dude, i said what i said for a reason. thanks for making this thread nsfw

That's not nsfw, that's art.

Maybe FAILED art but art.

#2900 7 months ago
Quoted from LTG:

They haven't delivered any games yet. Hence the shat.
Once they do, the shat will decrease.
LTG : )

I loled.

https://en.bab.la/conjugation/english/shit

Srsly, I thought it is "shit-shat-shitten".

Then I hope a decline of shittness is incoming!

#2907 7 months ago
Quoted from adol75:

You don't need a camera to track a ball on a playfield. Anki Overdrive is an exemple on how recognizing placement of little cars on a track can be achieved. It's a commercial product, decently cheap (150$ for the complete starter set), and is fully performed locally.
Here some details on how they do that, they claim (but no way to verify) that each car check its position 500 times per second.
https://thenextweb.com/insider/2013/11/11/anki-drive-reveals-secret-track-technology-guides-ai-controlled-cars/

The car has the camera.

But infrared is a good keyword, since the human eye can't see it and most relflections don't matter because modern LED light doesn't shine in the infrared spectrum.
Let's just imagine you'd have cutouts where the switches would be (like the tracks in Anki) and one infrared illumination inside the cab. Programming knows where the "switches" are located. (Could do this with the given inserts also.) Camera tracks those.
Light falls trough = switch open
Light is blocked (because Ball rolls over) = switch is closed
No "AI motion tracking" needed at all. Kind of the same system a prehistoric lightgun shooter uses.
It's am opto with one emitter and one (computer controlled) recipient.
Could not replace all switches of course; depends on location.

Still not something i would patent since it is prone to failure but I'd still trail that thought.

(It would work better then Kinect... wich was a product brought to market TWO TIMES and failed! )

#2910 7 months ago
Quoted from adol75:

The ball is the same as the car, it's the moving object, and it's the one that has the IR camera. The difference on the ball is that it rolls, so it would need either a very reactive gyroscope or an array of IR lights, each on its own frequency most likely.
I am not saying this could replace the switches as I don't even think the switches are what needs to be replaced, but I am saying there are other methods than a camera to track a moving object in a closed environment.

You don't built a computer (with a camera) in an object exposed to high forces (and that's btw. not transparent). XD

#2911 7 months ago

But honest question:
If you had the chance to built a competitive company to Stern and underprice their Pro model lineup without watering down the experience, where do you see potential to re-invent something to cut down development and/ or manufacturing cost?

You start with (only) one advantage.
You're able to start with a blank slate instead of homogenously add/ change things in the existing process like Stern does.
(Like stamping the playfields with the Hanafin (?) machine.) If you don't use this advantage and try to imitate the competitors process you propably won't beat them in their own field. And you can win a lot by optimizing the production process, as Toyota showed when re-inventing their manufacturing process, wich is now copied by every car manufacturer around the world.

#2913 7 months ago
Quoted from Jvspin:

Sounds like a great idea! Would still need to power the individual IR transmitters but they would just be on 100% or better, pulsed to conserve power. No more (or greatly reduced) wiring the playfield into a switch matrix.

"ONE infrared illumination inside the cab"

No multiple transmitters needed. Only one.

But yes. Even if they were lit seperately you could tie them into the GI and won't need a switch matrix.

#2917 7 months ago
Quoted from rgb635:

Jeff Teolis with effects added

To me it sounds like the Bending Sports Arena Guy in Legend of Korra.

(Boy I'd love for a pinball company to sail a bit outside their known waters. Like Gottlieb tried with Mario & Street Fighter...)

#2921 7 months ago
Quoted from goingincirclez:

What if a sensor-equipped ball like that were lighter weight: it might not (or perhaps should not) need to be steel. Heavy steel balls are used to trigger durable physical mechanisms.
But a sensor ball could be lighter, and could achieve similar gameplay speeds with lower-power coils. Interactive mechs wouldn't need to be built as indestructible, saving costs and wear and tear - even dirt from coil mechs. Reactive mechs could be triggered by sensed proximity instead of a physical switch; losing all the switch cutouts and space constraints might free more real estate for other uses (screens, lights, ramps, or other mechs...)
It's a lot of conceptual thinking and R&D upfront, but not fictional impossibility. Taken in sum, these concepts would certainly reinvent the game of pinball as it's come to be known, while being similar enough to appeal to traditionalists.

You don't build electronics into something that is constantly abused unless you have to. And NASA doesn't use off the shelf components or assembling techniques, you need to be certified for every poop you dump.

#2930 7 months ago
Quoted from goingincirclez:

Agreed... but my point was that the "abuse" we're so used to in pinball is because of one thing: the ball. Literally everything else in the machine is scaled around the size and weight of that steel ball: from object dimensions, to the force required to impart energy to it, to the damage it imparts at speed.
If the ball itself were substantially different, the other aspects - including the "abuse" generated - should change accordingly.
Think like Stewie or Munsters mini-pinball, but full-sized with a lighter ball. How heavy-duty would everything need to be? The cabinet needs to hold up to the monkeys mashing the buttons and pounding the glass, but maybe the insides can be made lighter duty with less wiring, but still hold up. Would make Stern happy for that alone. And maybe a "sensor ball" avails new possibilities too.
Just thinking outside the box, er, cabinet...

Not sure if that wouldn't change the feel of the game too much.

But if you make the ball out of rubber you could open up a lot of the shots because you won't need rubbered posts anymore.

#2940 7 months ago

adol75

Quoted from KoolFingers:God forbid that you anwser a 3rd time for those of us that don't listen to podcasts. But I do wish you success in your endeavors.

It really was answered answered every time ever this comes up.
TWIP itself wrote long ago it looks like classic pinball. If I remember correctly he said the backbox differed.

So adol75 if not everyone was telling the same lie you're 100% wrong.

#2942 7 months ago
Quoted from adol75:

Then I don't see the point of having 40 animators on the job, but I guess time will tell. Really wishing them the best on their endeavour, but speculating on the little information we are given is still fun to do !

I explained that earlier today, while I'm not sure that was actually confirmed. Dumbed down I'd translate that statement into 'they have access to 40 animators' because of their other endeavours, not 40 animators working in-house, full time.

I like speculating too.

More the manufacturing side for the moment, since this is a really interresting situation.
Pinball machines are pretty much built like they were for decades, with only slight, gradual improvements.
So you could try to reinvent the wheel and gain an upper hand against the competition, but pinball sales are still a tiny market, so you can't invest too much in R&D.

#2946 7 months ago
Quoted from Drewscruis:

Ya'll are a bunch of lemmings. Look a shiny new video. Woah, take my money. .....idiot's, there is no physical product yet, just a video. This is a page right out of the jpop playbook.
If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull$#!+....

Greetings average pinsider!

Who exactly is that lemming that yelled "shut up and take my money" and whom can he give it to?

#2948 7 months ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Don’t you think they’d just do something else besides fuck around with primitive pinball machines?

There is no big market. But high profit margins and only one real competitor...

#2964 7 months ago
Quoted from pinlink:

Any update on when we may see an actual pinball machine from DR? Next TPF?

I don't expect to read trough hundreds of posts but you could scroll up 5 or so.

#2966 7 months ago
Quoted from pinlink:

And when is that?

Further up...

Games were supposed to be revealed last march after the 5 days of deeproot, that was cancelled/ postponed ~3 months in advance.
No concrete new info since then.

Deadline to "make up with Ex-Zidware Customers" (wich would propably be a copy of RAZA) is end of May or end of June.

Will they make it in time? Will Zidware Customers get a Deeproot game before the 5 days of Deeproot even happened?
(Edit: Actually that would be cool, o that they clean this slate and do the exact opposite of what everyone else did, collecting money from early buyers but then shipping games to new customers first.)

The anwser is:

Dunno!

-1
#2971 7 months ago
Quoted from benheck:

I like the part where I start a game after John, spend very little of my own money developing it (maybe 5 grand) and release it for manufacturing before he even gets bailed out the first time by Bill Brandes.

You made a game.

HE WROTE HISTORY AND BECAME A LEGEND!!!

(Just in case someone needs it -> )

#2974 7 months ago
Quoted from lpeters82:

I thought it might be interesting to try to date just how long it's been since JPop designed a functional game.
* Gas costs were on average $1.25 per gallon
* Barry Sanders was still in the NFL
* Vince Carter won ROTY
* Pre-Y2K
* Jon Snow (Kit Harington) was in elementary school
* Spice Girls were on tour
* There was no Xbox
Again, I want there to be a redemption, but it's a little unbelievable that anyone is willing to work with him after this many years.

Last JPop game is from 2006.

#2977 7 months ago

Or 2007, 2008. License was aquired in 2006.

41KKSHS84XL (resized).jpg

And no, I shit you not.

#2980 7 months ago
Quoted from lpeters82:

Fair enough, I edited my post to include "full-size".

#2987 7 months ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Yeah it's a dumb ass game with bad software just like the rest of 'em.
Looks pretty though!

I'm here because of playing TOTAN in the Pinball Arcade and getting hooked.

If I wasn't, wouldn't this forum be a sad, sad place and you would cry every single day missing me?

#3006 7 months ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

except... that wasn't the conversation. It was about doing it DIFFERENTLY than p3 had already done.

No. That wasn't mentioned one single time.

#3023 7 months ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

So wait.. you proposed a tracking system.. that you even admit is not feasible... to address a problem that you (should) know P3 already addressed, and did so successfully?
So you're back to reinventing the wheel with impractical ideas? You and the cameras in the ball guy should hang out more often.. two peas in a pod.

"Not feasible" means that every play of thoughts has it's downsides that would have to be worked out and I don't claim to present you a fleshed out solution aka IAMRIGHT.

But I am.

I'm only think it further. I want it not only to work but to be cheap. So the question when developing something like I proposed is how much decrease in precision can you justify/ will be noticeable.
My proposed solution is for example not feasible if the cameras view is obstructed. So you have to evaluate if that is a major problem and how often there is something in between the top of the backbox and the glass. (Under the usual circumstances: Never)

So we could collectivly let our phantasy flow and work some of this out just for fun or just keep saying that everything is shit, impossible and everyone else is wrong.

And camera in the ball is a terrible idea for obvious reasons I pointed out immediately.

Oh and sadly I don't know of a single P3 in europe. Also I am not in pinball development but in automotive.

#3028 7 months ago
Quoted from Roostking:

While I appreciate the back and forth, you are talking best case scenario. What happens when the ball "jumps" off a post due to old rings? What happens if there is a multiple happening and you have multiple jumps? Ball tracking will be lost. Then what? Play again?

I'm writing on a phone so I can't type all that again but I allready answered that ~2 pages ago.
Short: You don't track the ball. You just define areas (like switches) where the view (maye an infrared light) gets obstructed by the ball or not.

If you NOW in multiball shoot a slow ball in the left orbit and one in the right, the game will count it as an orbit shot also. The game doesn't track the ball. It assumes you made the shot because these two switches are hit.

Also this "play of thoughts" doesnt assume to get rid of all switches.

#3031 7 months ago
Quoted from adol75:

The ball doesn’t need a camera but you surely need glasses Mr Pea !
An Ir beam or an array of them, who said anything about a camera !

We still can hang out tough.

#3044 7 months ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Your idea simply evolves to what we already have.. optical switches. When you start addressing all the nooks and crannies you want in a game.. you end up with all these zones that can only be seen from nearby places.. and why bother with an advanced computed image if all you are doing is proximy detection.. so you end up with just what we already have. Optos or induction detection.
When you go to visual and expect a good FOV.. you end up doing what P3 already did.. a big open empty space.

It would be way easier if you would just read what has allready been written before trying to proof some conspiracy.

It is an opto, exactly. I said that allready.
But with only one emitter and one recepient, so you don't need to tie lots of cables into a switch matrix and therefore save money.

#3045 7 months ago

But off to higher misterys...

Since now we know nearly everything about Deeproot and their games:
When does the Star Wars topper come out?

#3047 7 months ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

When Stern isn't putting video camera ball tracking in games, that's business smarts.

Yes.

But I'm talking about competition. And competition driving innovation.

It was business smarts of Stern to keep the DMD to keep development cost low. It would be business dumbness if they would still be doing this, competing with JJP.

JJP gives us nice games, so Stern has upped their game.

Deeproot says they want to keep the price low, so you have to rethink the development and manufacturing side of things. (Whatever they'll do.)
Camera replacing a couple of switches, tracking the flippers for an end of stroke switch replacement, while using ist maye also to be able to stream your game could potentially drive cost down while adding additional features.
Again: Not saying that this is the way to go.

Simpler example:
Most Pop Bumper Areas are totally seperated. Would it really change the outcome noticably when all 3 Pops are only driven by one switch line & coil?
Would it save money? I dunno! But it is something that could be evaluated if you see the need.

Even simpler and Stern allready does this:
If you don't have to hit targets in a specific order why bother intergrating a lot of seperate targets but include a big one, like in Munsters.
It is risky to do that if people think you're watering down the experience, since this is an obvious change. But they did it and will look if people get around accepting it.

#3058 7 months ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Ignoring the point why I said it devolves into Optos... you can’t have one spot that can see the entire pf! So instead of one.. you end up with two... three... four... and now your just back to doing what we are doing... proximity. And at that point, your complex method is completely wasted.
People seem to forget... sometimes the reason a method is repeated is not just venues it’s easier to copy.. but because it can be the most effective mix that has been proven.
Innovation that doesn’t improve anything is simply experimentation. You try to avoid making your customers bear that burden.
If the solution doesn’t outperform the original... don’t do it.
(This coming from a guy whose industr has been trying to perfect drawing tracking, fingers, multitouch, etc forever). Digital whiteboards anyone? Yeah it’s the same problem and it’s been worked on for ages. Both optically and with surface designs.

Same answer as before.
Is reading so hard? "A couple of switches" is even written in the post you answer to. Not all of them. Wrote that explicitely multiple times.
Goal of that "PLAY OF THOUGHTS" (wich is still way mote elaborate then your allready answered attackings) is improving manufacturing cost.
I might have written that... A couple of dozen times if you quit reading with predefined assumptions.

#3059 7 months ago
Quoted from TreyBo69:

And there would be new benefits like never having to physically adjust a switch

We'd get new problems for that though.

#3077 7 months ago

What have I done?

#3081 7 months ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Exactly.
That's why people like pinball, because it's basically the same as it was 30 years ago.
For everybody else there's Lexy Lightspeed. Don't exactly see those flying into everybody's collections.
People who want "innovation" should find a new hobby. People like pinball because it's pinball.
I cannot believe how many of you are taking this ball tracking camera to replace all playfield switches idea seriously. Why are you even into pinball if "old tech" isn't good enough for you?

It's (mostly) about innovation in development and manufacturing. Not innovation in gameplay or differing the user experience like P3. (Wich is a great thing but you have to experience it to get how it feels.)

I'm pretty sure you get that.

#3082 7 months ago
Quoted from ZNET:

I thought that ball tracking was long ago invented. Isn't that technology called a "video game."

I call it "wife".

#3086 7 months ago
Quoted from gstellenberg:

Correction... There's:
Lexy Lightspeed - Escape From Earth
Lexy Lightspeed - Secret Agent Showdown
Cosmic Cart Racing
Cannon Lagoon
Grand Slam Rally
Hoopin' It Up
ROCs
Barnyard
HeadsUp
I've heard very few people claim to not enjoy the innovations. On the contrary, the innovations and the industry-leading price per game are the things people seem to love the most. The biggest knocks on the P3 are the lack of popular theme and the need for better art design (which we hear and have taken big steps to improve).
Back on topic, DR is starting with one thing that we didn't start with... money. Good on them. They've leveraged that money to pull big teams of people together, and that seems to be a major reason why everybody's got so many expectations for their products. Whether or not they turn that into corporate success and fun playing pinball machines... we all wait to see.
- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

As I wrote there is no P3 System anywhere in reach for me (that I know of at least) but from what I saw, what you managed to do with this/ develop (with no budget to speak of) is downright impossible to believe and I have the utmost respect and appreciation for that!

#3093 7 months ago
Quoted from minnesota13:

Whatever happened to the Gottlieb System 3 "Smart Switches?" A high tech switch, no adjustment needed.

Got a college degree and is now working at NASA.

#3099 7 months ago
Quoted from KoolFingers:

lolol But you could throw that out your car window doing 60mph, backup to get it, but drive over it, and still make a phone call with it. Today’s phone can’t be dropped 3’ and survive without and sometime with a case.

But your car will break.

-1
#3123 7 months ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

I think that is just more and more people around now that aren't as informed about the past. Late comers who haven't listened to the insiders... or who didn't live through zidware... etc.

Nah, it's that now you can post 'reasonable' things without getting completely flamed by the angry mob.

Edit:
Not that the mob is completely gone as you can see.

What I mean by reasonable:
Crazy Levi might poop on JPops games and get's upvoted for that, but nontheless JPops games are still in the Top 20 and people want his games, that's the reason they gave him money in the first place. You can deny and downvote that but it's still a matter of fact. One year ago I'd not have one downvote for that statement by now but over 50, so it get's better!

#3126 7 months ago
Quoted from CLEllison:

What's your proof/source for this? I seriously haven't heard/read anything like this.

"Had to be" in my understanding of your language hints at an assumption and therefore his statement is appropriate.
(Wich doesn't mean it's right.)

#3128 7 months ago
Quoted from wrb1977:

Could we please keep this thread on topic? This thread should be about deeproot and any associated updates, reveals, etc. This thread has in large part turned into a thread about new technology that could be incorporated into pinball. I feel there is plenty to discuss regarding new pinball technology to warrant its own thread. Just my thoughts and very much looking forward to what deeproot has to offer...best of luck to them...thanks!

Sorry for that. It was not my intent to "discuss technology" I just (while waiting) wanted to bring ideas to the table (and read some of others) how Deeproot will be able to get us a Ferrari at a Fiat pricepoint, like they claimed.

#3154 7 months ago
e4f (resized).jpg
#3158 7 months ago
Quoted from Brijam:

I agree that this video is merely a notch up from a flash video. I wouldn't put it on the level of JJP, but I'd put it over Stern which isn't saying much. It starts with a couple of seconds of mediocre 3D. The rest is 2D hand drawn art and so-so visual effects. Great VO and sound effects and music, but for me it lacks a consistent art style and direction. For example, the low detail cartoon spaceships don't fit with the gritty, flat, comic-book style art of the main characters.

Where is benheck when you need him?

That is the second time I read this and last time from a Person that thought American Pinball has cohesive art packages.
That characters aren't 'flat' the colorization and shadows show depth, it's the animation that is flat. When they move their arms, that's the only time the Animation is a bit sub-par put I'd prefer a nicely drawn character over a lackluster 3D built.
You couldn't do this animations in 2D with the spaceships (wich are easyer to make in 3D then a human body anyway) so they're 3D animated.
I'd call that 'optimization'.

#3162 7 months ago
Quoted from Brijam:

I don't recall saying that AP had cohesive art packages. I think their LCD visual art and animation is their weakest hand. Pretty sure I've said so.
I'm in the video game industry, what do you do?

The characters are two dimensional, my friend. They are flat and have no depth. That's not an arguable point. That's why it is painful to watch the zombie arms and faces zoom at the screen with zero depth. It's why all of the facial and arm movements look mechanical. It makes it particularly painful because they open with 3D and then switch to 2D for the remainder.
But I'm shocked, simply shocked that you prefer nicely done art to shit art. That's astonishing!

Of course they could do the incredibly simplistic 3D animations they did with 2D art. Have you never watched any anime?
Mixing 2D and 3D is a no-no. They saved money but it looks awful, and it should /never/ have been signed off on. Choose one.

I din't say it was you referring to AP.
(It wasn't you, it was the last time someone said this video is not cohesive.)

You don't get what I mean with 3D.
I know and said the characters are 2D, but they're not flat shaded, so they have depth.

I know Anime. And they mix a lot of 2D and 3D.
Mostly Cars (Initial D), Mechs (Macross Zero, Frontier) or *drummroll* Spaceships, all kinds of inanimate objects while the rest is traditionally animated.

When you watch TV, EVERYTHING is 2D, so when well made, you wouldn't even notice any difference.
There's enough movies (and anime series) that try to keep their traditional look while beeing completely 3D rendered.

Whatever:
Of course it could be better and I don't like the villains arm motion but that's a video that Looks better then most that we get now and propably only plays in the "DMD" of the game one single time when you start the game (all the other times you skip it).

#3166 7 months ago
Quoted from Brijam:

You don't know what the hell you're talking about.
Again, what do you do for a living?

I'm a professional Artist.

#3169 7 months ago
Quoted from Brijam:

3D? Animation? Graphic design? ???

Just tell me where I have no clue answering a "you don't mix 2D and 3D" Statement with all the times it's usually done.

You can colorize it FLAT (like a classic comic book with one color each plane) or imitate DEPTH with shadows, lights gradients.
So hard to understand?

You mix that in Videogames as well. In Halo 3 I think it was, when the camera shows the landscape from really far away and a ship crashes down the whole backdrop is a 2D Picture.

I draw Stuff people want me to. Like illustrations in books, comics, cover art... I try to continue retheming my Police Force when I have the time:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/bonkers-toon-police-force-retheme

Edit:
And before someone say's I'm schizo - yes, I worked in automotive development/ consulting till the last recession, then I quit and became a freelance artist because I wanted to do a job I don't hate as much.

#3172 7 months ago
Quoted from Brijam:

NVM I looked you up. I wish you well with your comic books. Nur auf Deutsch, oder?
My point wasn't that you can make 2D art as good as 3D such that a non-artist couldn't tell the difference.
Specifically in the game industry, it looks like ass to mix 3D and 2D assets they way that DR did. People do it, it just looks like ass.
It's cheaper to do 3D spaceships the way they did, and it's cheaper to do the 2D art and animations they way they did, and it looks it.
Comic books, I have no idea.

That Comic book thing is just my private hobby (and mostly the thing you can find because I can freely put my name on it, not like the cover of a game where noone knows who made it) , sadly (at least in germany) you earn next to no money with that.
(And no, not only in german.)

Here's a new Statement:
"they way that DR did"

What they did is mixing up 3D and 2D Flash Animation. The Problem is not the look of the 2D characters that were used (if you would take a Picture of the gril next to a spaceship it would look just fine) it's when both stand next to each other animated that the gap widens. - I'm with you there.

#3177 7 months ago
Quoted from Brijam:

This statement is everything that's wrong with America right now. Of fucking course it makes a person's /arguments/ more valid if they're coming from someone in the industry. I don't know much about climate science but I trust climate scientists more than I do people who talk shit for a living. It's why I asked if DS_Nadine was an artist.

Nontheless is someone correct if someone is correct or wrong if he is wrong, no matter what his background is.

My argument should not become more valid in hindsight because of my background.

Basically we were only talking at (tiny) cross-purposes, but "You don't know what the hell you're talking about. Again, what do you do for a living? [I'm a Pro!]" is not at all helping realizing such things.

#3179 7 months ago
Quoted from Brijam:

I heard Disney artists and I was hoping for more from them; either old school cel animation or full 3D. I've done work for Disney and I have a lot of respect for their product. On the other hand, Flash animation really sucks, and it sucks worse when you bolt 3D to it.

I think they were only referring to Disney Infinity, the Video Game.

Quoted from Brijam:

I disagree that putting the spaceship next to the girl would look good even as a static picture.

You may.

Actually I admit I'd have to watch that again.

I'd try making a mockup but after that fake BTTF pic, I'm afraid Robert will sue me.

#3183 7 months ago
Quoted from Brijam:

Come on. It's vastly more likely that someone with industry experience knows what they're talking about than someone who doesn't have industry experience. In any industry.

Not denying that.

#3187 7 months ago
Quoted from Rondogg:

When you see the deeproot thread has 100+ new posts and think there must be some new news. Nope. Robert doesn't even have to chime in non sequiturs to keep this thread going...

I should get paid for this!

But actually there has been everything said... Multiple times so I take my leave until we get the next tiny snippet of info.

1 week later
#3267 7 months ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Looks like DR is planning on "delivery" starting by June 30.
I just received the "Goodwill Agreement".
"By the delivery date, DR will offer at least three different titles....."
It looks like the standard pricing on these games is going to be $5k
Very nice!
And we will have the ability to tour the factory to play and select games.

I'd like tat to be true but how come your lover Chris did not yet make a podcast out of this?

#3297 7 months ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

The gradient fill in game of thrones hasn’t cost a single sale of that title.

ONE!!!

We'll because of the whole Playfield & Cabinet art also, but...

#3331 7 months ago

It takes time to train all that octopusses!

Looking forward to what's coming!

#3346 7 months ago
Quoted from toyotaboy:

I would hope nobody is actually doing this. Even if you announced a month from now that you have a fully working whitewood, I'm assuming there's still a lot to do (play testing, coding, animation, sound, artwork, tweaks, building up a production assembly area, ordering parts / tooling). Everyone should be buying whatever pinball looks interesting to them right now. You should never be waiting for the next thing, because there will ALWAYS be the next thing.

When they announce a game it'll be finished. And when you order it they'll be able to deliver it in two weeks. - At least that was the claim or how I understood it.

Even if they manage to do this I guess that won't apply internationally, so I don't care too much for that strict timeframe, but within 3 months at least would be great.

2 weeks later
#3424 6 months ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Sit right back and you'll hear a tale...
A three hour tour!
A three hour tour!

It takes time to learn how to snort cocaine with you poophole.

-4
#3469 6 months ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Comical.... still boasting as they wildly miss deadlines.
Know what other companies do when it gets thick? Focus... instead dp boasts about developing “tens” of pins.
Wonder if claimants lose their buyout option if they don’t take it at this deadline?

Comical, mixing up Deeproot and Dutch Pinball who 'focused' on one machine to their full success... Oh, wait.

Edit: Such a good sport.

-2
#3471 6 months ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Still using the jpop book of how to sucker people... throw in some art teases...

That darn pictures, always so visual...

-1
#3472 6 months ago
index (resized).jpg
14
#3502 6 months ago

Pinside bitching 24/7 about missing toys, dimpling playfields, node board failures etc. ...

Competition mentions adressing that:
HOW DARE YOU!!!

For me:
As long as Jeff seems happy what he was shown I'm looking forward whats coming out of this.
I don't need to mary neither Robert or Jpop... Whom calling 'Jpoop' for the 666st time is really tiresome to read and btw. childish.

#3506 6 months ago
Quoted from Tranquilize:

Once you start insulting JJP [...] I start to walk away.
I'll buy from JJP, that drab company that can't seem to get its act together with Lawlor and friends...

How does one walk away from himself?

#3512 6 months ago
Quoted from Tranquilize:

I don't understand what your confusion is. I stated I'd walk away from Deeproot and buy from JJP... Pretty straightforward language.

I'm not confused.

You should just read what you actually wrote/ I quote.

Edit: *hint* Stop insulting JJP. *hint*

#3514 6 months ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

As they say in the movie business; show--don't tell.
Imagine if all on-screen special effects were simply scenes of Gilbert Gottfried describing what was happening.
Yeah, it might be mildly entertaining at first, but it gets old after a while.

Well they were obliged to tell these days.

They told us what was obvious, since customers have 3 options but the game wouldn't be ready soon, so there's only 2 options left.

They gave additional Info, wich is nice, and get a lot of shit, as always.

So, nothing out of the ordinary.

#3524 6 months ago
Quoted from Tranquilize:

Maybe this is a German/English thing? There's nothing wrong with my post, and your quote does not make sense.

You say you walk away from people "insulting" JJP.

Next thing is you "insult" JJP as a company that doesn't get their act together.

I think that's funny (and a good representation of pinsiders double standards while with that not meaning to offend you).

#3525 6 months ago

So funny, yet so innovative.

Keep'em coming.

#3531 6 months ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Stop cluttering up the threads with your babble.

Why quoting me while talking to yourself?