(Topic ID: 203700)
Linked Games
Alice in Wonderland
Zidware Pinball USA, 2013-
Celts
Haggis, 2021
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Magic Girl
Zidware Pinball USA, 2017
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Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland
Zidware Pinball USA, 2012
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Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland (Arcade Edition)
Deeproot, 2020
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Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland (Xtra Edition)
Deeproot, 2020
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Clermont, FL
Quoted from o-din:Look at my avatar. That's what I am enthused about today. If the general pinball community doesn't get it, not my worry. We got tickets for 9:30.
Ford v. Ferrari?
I hate that people keep saying RAZA has a Zombie theme. I mean I get that its in the name, but art-wise it seems a lot more like a retro sci-fi theme, mixed with some carnival type stuff. The only zombies I see look more like space-zombies that could just pass for martians. Maybe it needs a name change.
A few big takeaways from Robert's interview:
*RAZA and future pins will definitely NOT be priced at or below Stern pros. He actually seemed kinda offended at the notion, like we didn't value his, and his team's, efforts enough. (seems like Premium/LE pricing for sure now)
*You can take a regular hammer to DR playfields, but not an actual sledgehammer. His previous statements were "of course" hyperbole. (I do appreciate how seriously he takes the playfield issue, it was nice to hear a manufacturer be this upfront about the issue)
*His interest in pinball is fading (Not sure what that means for the future, since he hasn't released even one machine to the public yet. Hopefully, the rest of his team is still interested!)
*He thinks pinside is a sewer, and nothing anyone posts on it has ANY value (does that make us all sewer-dwellers, by extension? worthless too apparently?)
His comments about pinside annoyed me the most, because while yes there are jerks on the forum, there are also a whole lot of decent people. You can post an issue with your machine in any owners thread, and within an hour you'll have 6 people come online to give advice, and say how they had the same problem, and here's how they fixed it, and post up pictures, and provide parts links. There's a lot of good on pinside, a lot of really helpful/kind people, and a lot of genuine positive excitement about upcoming machines. I find that if someone is truly being an jerk, without any merit to their statements, then they tend to get called out on it. If Robert had approached his marketing and public-persona differently, then I think he'd have had a much better time on pinside.
Also, ask the average bar/arcade owner if they have heard of deeproot. Now ask the average pinsider. Pinsiders are currently deeproot's biggest customer base. You can't compare DR to Stern in regards to needing pinsider money. You have to compare DR to other boutique companies in regards to scale and customer demographics.
Quoted from Rondogg:I thought it was very odd that he tried to make it very clear that Deeproot money was "his money" and that there are "no investors". Was he just using jargon wordplay or is that correct? I thought there was evidence of this being some sort of investment vehicle, no?
Yes, RM very condescendingly said he was laughing at everyone who was speculating about his/deeproot's financial situation. Of course, he didn't offer to clarify any of the apparent misconceptions. Which is of course his right; however, providing information is a much better form of communication IMO, than mocking statements.
Quoted from razorsedge:Pinside, the threads like this one, has proven to be little more than a Circus made up largely of misinformed comments, by people whom think they know, and by god don't dare come forth to stick up for yourself or the pitchforks will be flying thick and fast!! lol
Stern designers left, stern never gets involved, RM is only the same story. Designers, Stay Away from the pinside cesspool!!, threads like this one, for the most part, appear to be just a place for pinheads to argue about their imaginary crap!. Throw around "thoughts"
Designers/manufacturers.... Read, of course.... but good idea to take most of what is written in here with a BIG pinch of salt! .... and definitely think twice before posting!! ...or just don't (feed the Trolls).
Except that I don't think that pinball manufacturers and designers who conduct themselves with dignity, and transparency, should have any real problems here. RM's problem was that sometimes he can be a trash-talking braggart, and people love to try and take down people like that. Mike from Homepin ran into the very same issues. Also, Stern didn't run into any real problems on the pinside forums, until after they started having insert/playfield issues back in 2016 with Ghostbusters. That's when Stern started getting a lot of hate comments, and because as a company they have never fully and properly addressed the various and ongoing playfield/quality issues, they can't for the most part engage with pinside. Aside from Nordman, who seems to still get away with the occasional post.
Show me a pinball company that's taking a lot flack on pinside, and I'll bet you 100% of the time you'll find technical, quality, or communication problems coming from said pinball company/representative.
Quoted from bigd1979:I don't know much about this company or pin but anytime a new pinball is designed and goes into possible manufacturing than it's a good thing. Not sure why people are being so negative about a new pin...let alone a early prototype with some low grade pictures and video. Seems most that actually played it had fun and said it's a good start. Can't everyone just be excited for more options ? If you like it buy it..if not then wait for another new release. Fun or not what a great time to be in this great hobby with so many new choices.
People aren't really being that negative about the RAZA game itself. There has been a mix of reactions to its reveal, mostly toward the positive end. The negativity is towards Robert, how he conducts himself, and how much he's over-hyped various things. He's promised the moon over and over again, so people are judging the game, and Deeproot, based on RM's promises and on his bragging/shade throwing. Most people are excited about the prospect of new pins coming out; its just that there's a greater-than-normal amount of scrutiny and skepticism, because JPops involvement and because of RM's statements.
Quoted from rubberducks:So there are likely hundreds of detached, moderately well off, relatively clueless people being sold small to medium sized investments by detached, relatively clueless salesmen on commissions.
Seems like an interesting financing model for what's a fairly esoteric creative industry, with a string of entry failures. Particularly at what appears to be the tail end of a long boom cycle.
If this is accurate, then I can see why he feels licence to make rather bold statements. There might not be any big investors, and the chances of them hearing anything he says, let alone organising to protect their money seem pretty small. Still, it doesn't make publicly calling your largest concentrated market a sewer any smarter, even if you aren't going to get in trouble for it.
I'd be especially curious to see what any sales literature or pitches might say. What kind of returns over what kind of time scale. Risk assessments. Even more curious to see what updates and annual reports for people who bought in might contain, particularly about the delays.
I get the impression (and I'm sure RM is laughing himself sick over how wrong I am) that Deeproot didn't get direct investments for the pinball side of things, but instead got investors for one of the shell businesses, and then the money sorta got funneled over to the pinball-side somehow. I don't think the investors were actually speculating on the pinball industry being successful. More like life insurance or the animation side or something. Could be way off though, but that's kinda the sense I get.
Quoted from DS_Nadine:Srsly, noone postet this yet? (Well, except Jeff in his article, wich you should read.)
Thanks for linking this Nadine. Best video I've seen to date. High resolution, you can hear some of the machine audio, see the display, and it has a good player on the pin. If Deeproot had just done a video like this alongside the prototype unveiling, it would have quelled a lot of the negative speculation.
One thing I liked after watching the latest video of RAZA, is that it reminds me a lot of a 90's game. The RAZA playfield is full of stuff! None of this empty playfield with some small-metal-ramps-at-the-back stuff.
Quoted from CLEllison:The end of that article NAILED it. "DR doesn't owe anyone anything so we'll have to wait and see what happens."
While they technically may not owe pinball enthusiasts anything, if they want us to buy their pinball machines, then we need to be confident that they won't go out of business in a year. And we need to be confident that their games will hold up maintenance-wise.
1 month later
Quoted from razorsedge:Still just alot of people talking about completely irrelivant speculative nonsense which really seems to only interest them. Why not start a shares/investment/stockbroking thread??. Seriously!
Some seem to misunderstand that I care either way..... I'm just tired of reading irrelivant "investor" bull crap on here, and particularly when none of these "ex-sperts" are RM. Making the theories flying around simply that, irrelevant. Non pinball related hypothetical "theories".
Bad sketchy Deeproot!! They Must be swindling Somebody because they're new in pinball!! .... Why? ... Oh just cos that's what pinball has delivered in recent years!!
Some people will always just be negatively focused, I guess. Trolling, talking rubbish just for tge fun of it.
Who Cares where RM's company funds come from!? ... Really. Nobody, except about maybe 5 broken record posters in here care. Lol
It's none of your business, unless you're an investor?? ... if you have invested in DRP? , please, Post!
Pins in March, for anyone whom has been living under a rock. Unless they fail. Then no pins?
No offense, but you are completely missing the point of why a lot of us are interested in Deep Root's finances. A lot of us care about their financial situation because we want to know that we'll be able to acquire replacement parts, and continue to receive support, from the manufacturer after the purchase of an expensive machine. As we all know, pinball machines contain components that wear out or break, and need to be replaced. Owners won't be able to get those replacement parts if the company that made them is out of business. Its a simple concept. A lack of replacement parts is why some people are scared to own TBL or Alien machines.
And we've seen A LOT of start-up pinball companies go under, so DR going out of business is a valid concern. The fact that DR will supposedly be using a lot of unique, exclusive components makes the concern even more valid.
1 month later
Quoted from JodyG:In Roberts last interview, he definitely walked back his earlier boasts about pricing and pivoted to "best value for the money", which tells me these games are going to be expensive. He is also banking on outselling Stern in every way. Can the market really absorb a large quantity of titles at a high price point? I don't think this is possible. $8k, $9k and up is going to price Deeproot out of a big chunk of the market. I think if you want to inflict pain to your competitors, you need to have some games priced below Stern Pro pricing with better features. Selling all of your games at or above Stern Premium pricing just makes you another boutique manufacturer.
Yeah, that's the thing. If someone wants an expensive, limited-quantity pinball machine, then they've all ready got lots of options from Spooky, JJP, Stern (with LEs), CGC, American, and possibly even still Dutch. Not to mention High-End Restorers that sell pristine collectors-quality 2nd-hand pins. What we don't have is someone manufacturing quality lower-priced machines.
What's the most popular model from Stern? The Pro, by a lot. There's a reason for that. The Price. Imagine if Deeproot could offer Premium-level pins at Pro-level prices. They'd make a killing in sales. Now imagine if they could manufacture an entry-level pin for $5000, but with the features and quality (such as it is) of a Stern Pro. They'd make even more of a killing. While a more-packed Premium is a good thing, it's not going to change the market. A better low-priced option would change the market in a lot of ways. Imagine getting a quality NIB pin for cheaper than a used Stern. The ripple effect would bring prices down on all pins on the secondary market.
Assuming that DR can produce in the necessary quantities, in a reasonable time-frame.
Quoted from pinballaddicted:You need to ask the person who told you that where they got their info from, it is not true.
I think DR have missed the boat. Some of the comments earlier in this thread make me wonder how many people are willing to buy their games if they ever do come out.
Hopefully they produce some games for people to play at TPF.
Literally every person I've ever heard in the hobby and industry that's talked about the trim-level breakdown, has said that the Pros are the most popular Stern model. There are of course regional exceptions. In places like Australia, where they have increased costs due to importation expenses, the Premiums and LEs tend to be more favored than in the US.
Quoted from cjchand:My take: They weren't demonstrating anything. It was location testing. They had software devs with laptops connected to the pins and were keen to solicit feedback from those who played the games.
Then they shouldn't have let people film the game. Letting people film, but not having a proper camera-setup, was literally the worst of both worlds. It was neither a professional reveal or first look, nor was it a for-the-company-only quality control / stress test.
Quoted from Brijam:Yeah, but unfortunately it takes more than imagination.
Consider also that Stern's pricing might not be the only reason they sell more than other pinball manufacturers. Well established sales/marketing/distribution, accumulated knowledge, perceived stability, good (or conservative) design, top quality licenses, momentum... these all play a part.
I look forward to seeing the hundreds of innovations that have been touted by deeproot. Perhaps they will succeed where so many others have failed.
Oh for sure, Stern's long-established business relationships and strong distribution network is a big part of why they sell in the volumes that they do, but it doesn't explain why the Pro is more popular model. Only cost explains that. Be it initial cost or long-term cost of ownership.
1 month later
Quoted from o-din:9[quoted image]
Ahh, who doesn't love some dancing girls!
2 weeks later
Quoted from flynnibus:The poster wasn't talking about losing their job (they said they quit) - they were talking about the activities at deeproot studios and their actions involving layoffs after they left.
I can imagine a NDA being part of a separation agreement... especially if there is any severance involved. But this sounds like multiple people inbetween.
I'm not the one claiming the right to make someone C&D.. so no idea what their basis is
Even if the poster was under an NDA, that wouldn't apply to Pinside. So hopefully the post wasn't deleted by a moderator. Because Pinside is in no way obligated to abide by an NDA that they're not a party to. That would be a crazy overreach.
Last time K-man interviewed Robert, no one expected Chris to rude to Robert, or give Robert a grilling. But it would have been nice if Chris would have followed up on some of Robert's answers. Like the "It's my money." comment or the "Pinside is a Sewer." comment. Both of those statements definitely deserved some response. I think Chris could have found a way to be respectful but also not just give Robert a free-pass on everything that he said. Oh well, we'll see what Friday brings.
2 weeks later
Two Thoughts:
1) Regarding the Kaneda RM interview.
Deeproot had to approve the release of the interview before Kaneda could put it up. Normally, Kaneda puts up his episodes the same or next day that he records them. With the Robert interview, it was several days later before it was posted. The only reason he would take that long to post the podcast is if he was waiting on DR's approval. That would also explain why Kaneda didn't follow-up on questionable statements, and why he didn't give Robert any pushback whatsoever. And instead posted his rebuttals (as limited as they were) in a separate follow-up episode. One that wouldn't require DR's approvals.
For all K-mans talk of telling it like it is, and not shilling for manufacturers, Kaneda did compromise those values in order to get the Robert interview.
Which brings me to the next question.
2) Why is Kaneda the only podcaster that Robert will allow to interview him? It seems like a strange choice to me. Especially when there are, or were, several other podcasts that have close to Chris' numbers. And there are so many people that refuse to listen to Kaneda on principle. You'd think RM would want to capture as large an audience as possible and at least hit up one or two other shows. Also, RM doesn't go on pinside because he says it's a sewer, and yet Kaneda was one of the biggest trolls on pinside before he was banned. Seems weird to allow a former pinside-troll to interview you, when people like Chris are why RM left pinside in the first place. Strange. I find RM and Kaneda's entire relationship to be strange.
Anyone have any additional insight into any of this, or into how RM and Kaneda got hooked up in the first place, or why RM doesn't go on TPN, or Loserkid, ect.?
Quoted from Mr68:No offense but that's a lot of speculation on your part and most of it I don't believe to be true or I just flat out disagree with it. Maybe someone else wants to respond in detail but it's way too much for me.
Quoted from DS_Nadine:Is that so?
As I remember, that Interview came on the day he announced it and Robert was interviewed by a couple of podcasts and sites, via mail or "live"; from eclectic games, looser kid, twip...
With the assumptions allready lacking the interpretation has no basis.
So if I was totally out-of-whack with my post on the latest Robert interview, then I am happy to be corrected! But when in recent times has Robert been on any other podcasts? Kaneda is the only person that's done a full audio-interview with Robert for at least 6 months, as far as I am aware. Has RM been on other shows in the last 6 months? If he has, then I stand corrected, and would greatly appreciate a link or time-frame for the other interviews. And I'm aware that he was interviewed in a limited fashion by the TWIP website, regarding COVID. Have they done a longform interview with RM recently? Either way, I was specifically speaking of podcast interviews in my previous post.
As far as speculation goes, my only point of speculation was Kaneda having to get approval from DR to release the episode. This was based on logical reasoning, and on things that Kaneda posted and said. I was under the impression that the interview was recorded sometime on April 8th, and posted on April 10th. I could have misinterpreted things though, and again if that's not the case, then I apologize.
Everything else I said about finding it strange that RM would choose Kaneda for his audio interviews stands. And Kaneda WAS a huge troll on pinside. This isn't opinion, it's fact, and you can look it up if you don't believe me. So again, I'm not seeing speculation here. And if you listen to Kaneda's interview and his follow-up episode, he is much gentler with RM and DR than he's been with any other manufacturer. So again, I'm not really sure how crazy uniformed and speculative my post was. But I am happy to be corrected. I'd rather be wrong, but informed, than blindly right.
4 weeks later
Like a lot of people, I interpret silence from a business as something negative. I've never understood when companies/business ventures/kickstarters go quiet. Obviously, they need to be careful what they share, and they need to be careful not to accidentally overshare or overpromise. But there's never an excuse for total silence. In a lot of cases, total silence means bad news. Ala' Dutch Pinball or the Stern Coffee table book, just to name a couple of recent examples in pinball alone.
And so if there is no bad news, then all the more reason to keep communication flowing. Even if it's just a brief update once in a while, with no real information. Anything is better than nothing.
7 months later
One thing hit me recently. I was considering ordering a RAZA, and decided to re-watch Robert's RAZA walkthrough video with my wife. After watching it again, I realized something...Robert never actually walks through the game and never really talks about RAZA at all. All he talks about are the features of the DR platform. He doesn't go over game rules, or shots, or mechs or anything. He spends 15 minutes talking about the DR platform as a whole, and barely any time on the actual game. Which is a red-flag to me.
So I realized that what I was interested in about RAZA were all the platform features, and not really in RAZA itself. And apparently the same is true for Robert. I've decided to just wait for a DR game that actually excited me because of the game itself, not just because of the special DR platform. Every game they sell should have the lift-glass, the pinbar, the wraparound backbox, and all the other stuff. So I might as well wait. Also, my wife thought that RAZA was probably 50% too many themes combined into one game. One or two of them would have been sufficient.
Quoted from Zablon:Hmm...I recall watching a gameplay feature video. It isn't in that feature video. Search on youtube.
Quoted from Yelobird:You Could watch one of the other 8 videos that covered those things. Just a thought. It’s an easy to find page called Videos.
Actually, DR only has one other video of any substance, and that's a fairly uninspiring rules-video by Steve Bowden and partner. Love Steve, but the rules video certainly isn't a slick or to-the-point overview.
Come on guys, my point wasn't that I couldn't possibly find any more info on RAZA; my point was that DR called their video a RAZA walkthrough, and that's not actually what the video is. DR doesn't actually have a slick, well-produced game-overview video. And the fact that Robert doesn't spend any time talking about the actual game, speaks volumes to me. The RAZA video in question should have been called a Deeproot Platform walkthrough, not a RAZA walkthrough.
And I just found it interesting. With Stern games, I can usually find a nicely produced and to-the-point video to show my wife a game I'm thinking about buying. With RAZA, it was difficult to find an equivalent video.
2 weeks later
Quoted from TreyBo69:We received orders (paid or goodwill) for ~70 Arcade Editions of RAZA, and ~60 Xtra Editions of RAZA. We will round up to 160 total RAZA Games with most of the remaining games available for sale at $8,000USD starting price for the Arcade Edition, and $13,000USD flat fee for the Xtra Edition. More details on timing of that later. After all RAZA games have sold we will publish (for historical purposes - IPDB), the exact game counts.
So....what's with the pricing here? $8k for the Arcade Edition and $13k for the Xtra Edition?! I hope that's just you snooze, you lose pricing, and not indicative of DR's pricing model going forward.
Because, at this new pricing, the Arcade Ed. is $500 more than a Wonka standard, and I don't know that I see $500 additional value added here over a Wonka Std. Plus, that 8k doesn't seem to include any extras either since it says "starting price".
At $6k starting price I was very tempted, but at $8k...no way. If future titles stick with the $6k base price of the ordering window, then DR could compete very favorably with Stern, provide they actually had a desirable license with exciting gameplay and rules. This new pricing has them competing with JJP, and which would you rather have, a GNR CE for $12.5k or a RAZA Xtra for $13k? I mean that's no contest at all.
1 month later
Quoted from JodyG:I've designed and built a number of stamping dies. The pinbar probably wouldn't be that hard to build a low production volume die for. Well, you'll need two. One to do the draw operation for the sides, and another to cut the window out. The bigger issue is you are going to probably be looking around a bit for a stamping house that wants to screw around polishing the die and running 120 pieces. The hourly press time rate will reflect this. The edges of the pinbar which wrap around the sides is going to be a bitch to keep straight in a draw forming operation. They might be better off blanking it with notches in the corners, forming it, welding the seam, and then grinding/polishing it out. Thats 3 dies now. Or maybe just laser cut the blanks. This is going to get salty for such a low volume of parts, and further proves why reinventing the wheel is costly.
Hmm, that all sounds like a challenging, and self-imposed, set of problems. But I thought Robert said that "Pinball is easy." 
I'm feeling feisty, so here's a controversial hot take: I actually DO want deeproot to fail.
I'm sick and tired of loudmouth, incompetent assholes like Robert Mueller, who can never admit to making a mistake. I don't want egomaniacs who manage to get some cash behind them through either graft, inheritance, or dumb-luck to succeed.
We've got plenty of pinball manufacturers now. More than enough with Stern, JJP, CGC, API, and Spooky. Plus, we've got P3 Multi, The PB Bros, Dutch, and Haggis to name a few more small-run guys. In fact, I'd even go so far as to say we've got too many pinball manufacturers right now. I'd love to see a few of these companies team-up or merge together. They could increase overall volume to reduce their costs and overhead, and maybe we'd actually see more than 1 game a year from a company besides Stern.
The only reason I'd even half-want deeproot to succeed is so that Zidware people can be made whole, assuming that RM actually intends to follow-through with that promise. And I'm sorry, but as much as I like Steve Bowden, he can't redeem the utter shitshow that is RM, JPop, and deeproot.
Quoted from jawjaw:Pretty poor imo to want a company to fail just because of a dislike of a few people. So you would be happy when dozens of people lose their jobs, customers lose thousands, and pinball loses competition?
No, I wouldn't be happy about people losing their jobs, but I would be happy for all the truly talented, creative, and motivated people working there to get scooped up by the other manufacturers. That way they could actually put their skills to use helping good companies make more and better pinball.
Quoted from iceman44:Has Robert been a dick? Sure.
I could care less
Because.....I will get my RAZA!
Right, but will RAZA be good? Will it actually be a fun pin? Will it still work after a year, and will deeproot continue to support it? Will deeproot even still be around for long after RAZA?
Also, you should care whether or not Robert is a dick. Because, he's the one in charge of the company; he's the one making all the decisions. If he's a myopic asshole that continually shows bad judgement, then he's hardly likely to make good long-term choices for the company, and he's not likely to listen to the smart advise of his more experienced employees.
And hey, I don't like talking about strangers like this, but Robert has continued to make idiotic, insulting, and woefully inaccurate public statements time after time for years. So I'm going to assess him based on those statements and on his company's failures. Maybe deep down Robert is a good guy, I doubt it, but maybe. And hey, maybe he'll change his tune and turn everything around. But again, I doubt it.
Quoted from benheck:I splurged on a RTX 3070 and now Cyberpunk runs great but it still isn't fun to me
John would have potential but yes, he never wants to go past the "fun" part of design. That's why he wasted time on KISS and Space Mission X and God knows what else instead of finishing his existing sales.
Yeah, I've been looking for a 3070 or 3060ti for a couple weeks now. Anything in-stock goes within 10 seconds being grabbed by the bots, or the hungry gamer/miner masses. And I don't want to pay triple the MSRP for ebay scalped cards. I know some guys that have been hunting for months.
Quoted from russdx:We have this argument all the time in my industry (slots) to build great games the coder needs to be creative, some coders are not and just don't make as fun games as the flow / creativeness (even if told exactly what to do) is just not there. Some one who has been coding washing machine firmware for past 10 years wont make you a good game. The person needs to be creative and want to make games for it to turn out / feel right. Some people just cant do it. All these games are about flow and timing and lamp shows. That's my opinion any way and iv seen it first hand, just because you can code does not mean you can code games to great standard. You need the right type of person.
Quoted from pookycade:Absolutely agree here. And sure the coder doesn’t have to be the rules designer. But if they are separate people it makes for one helluva convoluted process. The rules of a game are a fairly static flowchart. The use of lighting and sound and scoring and display to implement that rule set requires artistic as well as technical talent. Otherwise you just get an EM in your $10K machine.
Well, and this relates to people wearing more than one hat on the job, or to having more than one set of skills. You can look at people like Kojima or Iwata-san in the video gaming industry, to see that it's possible for creatives to serve in executive roles, and for skilled programmers to serve in leadership and creative design roles as well. Iwata-san got his start by helping to create the Kirby video game series. He was a very skilled coder, and a good leader. He ended up becoming president of Nintendo during some of it's most successful years. But if Nintendo had stuck with a mentality that, "Coders code, designers design, and executives lead." Then none of that would have been possible.
3 weeks later
Thought I'd post some knee slappers from the other thread. Those guys are REAL deeproot devotees. I can't imagine where their confidence comes from.
Quoted from Charlemagne1987:I don’t have a dog in this fight, but my guess is that Deeproot WILL deliver on its promised 160 or so games. If they wanted to rip people off they would have asked for more deposit money and they wouldn’t now be talking about refunds for displeased buyers who laid down deposits. We all know of JPOP’s sins, but he IS an incredible designer and Deeproot took a calculated chance on him. I think the current delays are exactly as Robert says...shipping on parts due to the pandemic. I sincerely hope you guys get your games. RAZA looks awesome.
And Deeproot has some very cool pins in the pipeline. If/when they deliver on RAZA, they will prove to all of us that they are a company worth buying from.
Quoted from kklank:So excited to see this game become a reality. It really looks spectacular.
That guy playing the game in the video giving instruction is great to listen to and he’s a good player.
It’s crazy how strong the negativity is on this company. It’s just pinball. Lol.
People constantly telling you the sky is going to fall. So what if it does?
I’m keeping the faith in DR though. Great for pinball to add another pinball company cranking out games even in small volume.
Quoted from Makakka:I was surprised and shocked when Cary Hardy backstabbed deeproot recently in a video and a Interview podcast. That pattern is reason why he got kicked out of TWIPY and is blacklisted by Stern and others.
In his video said he can’t imagine deeproot ever being able to produce RAZA. Confronted in the interview that the reveal video in December showed a working prototype he said he was surprised bc deeproot he could not imagine them being able to progress that fast...
Quoted from Mr68:It's not just Kaneda, Carey Hardy, Ben Heck or the sceptics in the Deeproot thread. Check out the final 30 minutes of the LoserKid podcast.
https://soundcloud.com/loserkidpinballpodcast/ep-57-deeproot-to-the-future
Quoted from Yelobird:And these opinions matter why again? They hunt for viral media attention or have a personal axe to grind. They have their own mission I wish them well.
2 weeks later
Quoted from wcbrandes:Maybe this is a little embarrassing for Deep poop?
[quoted image]
Well, in this case the Pinball Brothers were smart to contract out their manufacturing to someone who actually builds things like this for a living. Now a Jukebox is no Pinball Machine, but a lot of the same manufacturing principles would apply.
Quoted from Yelobird:Cultish lol. Its Pinball for god's sake try not to overthink it. We are talking about an adult non essential toy. You will note I have NOT said you nor anyone can not have your personal feelings good or bad towards Jpop or RM. Thats your choice and personally could care less. IF this was the dating game and we were somehow marrying one of these guys then sure but I personally don't feel I need to be BFF's or even like either of them to enjoy the hobby. Why does this have to be so personal with those that don't agree with you? Did I (we) take your money or spite you in some way? Or is it just that we don't take your side in this fanciful fight?
Much of that is true, but it's more than a toy to the people working in the industry. It's their livelihoods. So whether or not deeproot can succeed matters to their employees (poor folks!).
Quoted from SantaEatsCheese:While this thread is active again, I'd liek to remind everyone of the math on this is the $30,000,000 investment to start up rumour is true. At $1,000 profit per machine and a 6% return on investment to investors they will literally never make any money even at 50 machines per week.
From several months ago:
f they make 50 machines per week (JJP numbers), and make $2000 per machine, if they are paying 6% to their initial investors it would take them almost 20 years to break even.
Let's say Deeproot is invested in this all at $30,000,000. How much "profit" do they need to make on a machine? Let's say for the purpose of math (and making it easier to alter later) it is $1,000. That means that in order for Deeproot to break even, they would need to make ($30,000,000/$1,000) 30,000 machines just to break even. Let's step that up further and say that they reach the rumored manufacturing capacity of Jersey Jack Pinball of 50 machines per week. This would imply that (30,000/50) 600 weeks or 11.5 years were needed just to break even. If you want to say they make $2,000 per machine that makes 5.75 years or $3,000 per machine makes almost 4 years just to break even. But wait! Deeproot must be paying their investors some sort of rate of return. 11.5 years at $1,000 per machine and Deeproot promised... say a 6% return on investment once production started, then they would owe investors almost $60 million after 11.5 years, not $30 million. In fact, if you include interest of 6% on Deeptroot initial startup money at $30,000,000, produce at the rate of Jersey Jack (50 per week), Deeproot would never be able to eliminate its startup debt. At $2,000 markup per machine it would take them ALMOST 20 YEARS to eliminate startup debt.
Please note I have no insider knowledge of Deeproot and am pulling the numbers for debt repayment based off of online calculators. My math may or may not be right but from my purely mathematical analysis I do not see this company making it long term. With that said I am rooting for them.
Quoted from Yelobird:How is it defined as "mathematical analysis" when the value, profit margin, percentage return, capacity, (basically All numbers) are assumed or made up? Wouldn't it be more defined as a "mathematical guess"? Just because we add paragraphs of numbers doesn't make the equation in any way valid. lol
I think you're missing the point yelobird. I believe sataneatscheese's is trying to say that even by doing basic math, being generous with profit margins, and being very liberal with manufacturing and sales estimates, there doesn't seem to be any feasible way for deeproot to crawl out of their seemingly enormous debt and become a profitable company.
Debt kills otherwise profitable businesses. Take Toys R Us for example, they were actually still making money when they shutdown. Absent debt, they were earning far more than their operating expenses. The problem is, they just weren't able to make enough money to overcome the massive debt they incurred when the investors bought them in a leveraged buyout. So while yes, their profits were down from their peak, it was the wallstreet money guys that killed TRU.
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:Serious question: How likely do people think the next update will more or less be the game over one? I'm almost 50/50
I think the next update will be the "you can get a refund update". The one after that will be the "we're done" update.
Quoted from Chalkey:Saying the pinball market is saturated while at the same time not a single manufacturer can poop out games or raise prices fast enough is kind of a weird take.
Well, that's the thing. We actually do have a LOT of pinball manufacturers right now. It's just that most of them are small guys that produce very few games. And the big guys are way behind, and are backordered to kingdom come.
1 month later
Quoted from jawjaw:Right. Anyone questioning the finances of Haggis or counting cars in the parking lot? That building looks expensive. If they indeed bought a bunch of expensive equipment and gone down the road of designed and building their own parts instead of buying off the shelf isn't that a little bit concerning? Doesn't sound all that different from the likes of Deeproot and Heighway starting out to me.
People aren't questioning Haggis' finances because they haven't been working on Fathom for several years without a released product. People aren't questioning their finances because Damian hasn't bragged about burning through 750k a month. People aren't questioning Haggis' finances because they haven't repeatedly failed to pay their employees on time.
So yeah, doesn't seem like an Apples to Apples comparison, does it?
Also, parts-wise it makes sense for Haggis to be as independent as possible since...stay with me now...they're located in Australia! Quite far from the major pinball parts-manufacturers and suppliers. Haggis' business plan involves making games for years, so they'll make their money back on that equipment in the long run, versus paying through the nose to get stuff shipped to Australia and having to deal with excessively long lead-times.
Quoted from seenev:Wasn't there a requirement that to be eligible for the second draw of PPP, you have to show that your revenue was down 25% or more quarter over quarter? How can that possibly apply to deeproot?
Mmm, maybe pre-orders could be classified as revenue? So without any more orders this quarter, then PPP? Or you know, lawyers and loopholes.
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:PPP Comparison Time!
As a reminder, for Deeproot—shipper of zero pinball machines during time period covered—we have…
[quoted image]
And now, the other manufacturers (ranked in descending order by rough guess of machines shipped):
Stern
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Jersey Jack
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Chicago Gaming
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Spooky Pinball
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American Pinball
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Multimorphic
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Screenshots from https://www.federalpay.org/paycheck-protection-program where you can view additional details about each database result.
There’s a few eyebrow raisers looking at just these basics, and that’s coming from someone who understands next to nothing about this stuff. I’d love to hear thoughts from our PPP experts and encourage you to dig around some on your own!
Bear in mind that in Stern's case they probably have far more than 150 employees. As most of their line is contract-labor, and so wouldn't br be counted in these numbers. Same would be true of JJP I imagine.
Quoted from Mr68:Spooky sells 1750 games in under 90 minutes and the sale window for 120 RAZA's was a month. That's 30 days of RAZA FOMO to sell 120.
Some people might want to seriously analyze the reasons for that.
And then apply much of that logic to the resale value of RAZA after (if) it comes out. Simply rarity will not save this tired ass game, even in today's market.
Preach brother!
Quoted from Haymaker:You don't understand bro, the game is gonna be AWESOME and a gold mine because its so rare. Believe me bro, once it comes out and everyone sees how freakin awesome it is bro, thats when the money is gonna start flying in bro, I swear bro!
omegalul!
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:Maybe the deeproot correspondent on the pinball show can get to the bottom of this
Trouble is, he quit! He gave up being a dr correspondent a few months ago.
Quoted from Rarehero:Survival. I think that’s the general psychology with horror movies/games - facing your fears, the adrenaline rush of being scared and living to tell the tale.
Well put!
Quoted from TreyBo69:This is the actual patent. I think Gerry is fine.
It's very broad but I think these points kill it
>4. The pinball game of claim 1, wherein the video display is provided proximal to a rearward portion of the playfield.
>5. The pinball game of claim 4, wherein the video display is provided in a Substantially vertical orientation
Now Stern Star Wars on the other hand....
[quoted image]
edit: I forgot Lexy has a vertical screen in its rear portion. Hmm.
How can John patent having a screen on the backboard? Modern pinball machines have screens all over the pf in many different places. There's nothing proprietary about having it there. Letting this patent stand, would be like patenting having a screen in the backbox.
I realize that Cirqus Voltaire was the first to have one in the backboard, but even if that was patentable, I was under the impression that Williams would own any relevant patents when a pinball machine was designed, and not necessarily the designer.
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:Remember when Kaneda would interview Robert and pump up deeproot between interviews to stay in his good graces?
Not saying Kaneda hasn't been calling out deeproot for sometime (he has). Just saying don't rewrite history to make him into a gen 1 fraud spotter.
This did happen! Almost to the point that I thought he was on the payroll. But oh how things change.
In all seriousness, does anyone have any inside info on what is, or isn't, happening at deeproot?
I mean the fact that they have fully and completely missed another self-imposed timeline can't be a good sign. At this point, it's so laughable it's gone all the way to sad frankly.
And I'd love to get the final goodbye notice, I hate not knowing if they're really dead or not.
Quoted from iceman44:Where did Ben go, you on a another coffee run break? . Jk
The torment and torture is killing you guys that this thing hasn't closed up yet. I truly do have some "sympathy" for your extended agony and pain!
Drive by recon will occur today.
Yes!
Quoted from Lounge:Brother, for your own edification, go for it. But I don’t think anyone in this thread cares.
I live for Ice's driveby updates.
Quoted from Roostking:Lets not forget Dirty Donnie on Metallica. Kinda started the recent trend.
Was gonna say just this, but you beat me to it!
Quoted from flynnibus:Only if your doorway is the narrow 30” type. Which your exterior door will not be on any modern house. Boxes come inside all the time today - pinpod never will.
Well, I've got a 100 year old house, and while yes, the exterior door is that wide....none of the interior doorways are. So I've got to unbox in the garage regardless. Otherwise I'd have to unbox in my narrow entryway
Quoted from Beechwood:If the answer is no, then it is true they have no intention of making these games.
I know that deeproot said that they are no longer going to make any extra games to sell. And for some reason, I got the impression that they weren't that interested in letting waitlist people in. Because if they've got a waitlist, then why not just make all of them games.
This whole line of thinking is of course predicated on deeproot actually making the games. Which is certainly a big question mark.
1 week later
Quoted from pookycade:Hagis has built like what …. 5 pinball machines ? Skepticism is warranted even if they are nice guys and seem to know what they are doing. Running a financially viable business is hard. And I don’t throw rocks here. I put a deposit down on Alien part 2 when it was a no more than a kiosk flyer. I regret that and won’t do so again (even if I know Cointaker who holds the funds is on the up and up). These startups seem to always overpromise and underdeliver. I get why they would want preorders to solidify volume parts discounts and plan effort, but that’s their problem not mine. Well … strictly speaking it now is my problem since 8 months post deposit still no Alien. This isn’t how businesses should operate and I won’t support it any more even if it forces me to mostly buy Sterns. At least I know when money is paid to Stern product will ship and not like in 12-18 months (or in case of DR never)
Pretty sure they've built a lot more than 5 now. I think something like 50 celts games have been built. And they've actually shown their factory and the space is almost entirely taken up with manufacturing equipment and workspace. A far cry from derproot.
Quoted from iceman44:F off. Check your pm and call me. Keyboard coward
Keep slandering me buddy
Undoubtedly some of the same people that made the “anonymous threats” to Jeff at TWIP
Let’s go Debbie Downvoters! Line em up. Sign on and let your hate flow. I hope it feels good for you. I love it
Hey ICE, if you want to chat to people on the forum so bad, feel free to PM me, and I'll shoot you my number. I have no idea what we'd talk about though. I was stationed at Fort Hood when I was in the Army, so I guess that's a Texas connection at least!
We can only guess as to who is harassing Jeff and why. I could actually envision a scenario where the JPOP/deeproot haters might harass or threaten Jeff. Maybe because they felt he had inside information that he didn't share, or maybe because he accepted sponsorships from Robert and deeproot.
Not saying that's what's actually happening, but I think it's certainly possible for the culprit to be on either side of the fence.
Quoted from PinMonk:Ohhh, you hit one there. I constantly find myself making the that/who error. I've been trying to break myself of it for YEARS, but "that" is the default position in my brain.
Well, eventually grammar rules cede to common-usage. Common-usage never cedes to grammar rules. So someday you will probably end up being correct in using "that".
1 month later
Quoted from okgrak:That's almost 5K per year in insurance premiums. Is it really that high in Texas?
Maybe for a crazy expensive car. When my wife and I lived in Texas it cost us between 400 and 600 dollars every 6 months to insure 2 average-priced cars. That was like 10 years ago.
2 months later
Quoted from LORDDREK:And there were at least two who bitterly clung onto the hope that if they continued to blow the trumpets of praise well after all was known they might be the ones to posses one of the partially completed machines. That is the level of selfishness one should never forget…
Ah yes, I think one may have been yellow and one may have had horns. If I recall. 
2 weeks later
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:Big SEC news that looks like (to my untrained eyes) a win for RM: The deeplawyers submitted and the judge granted a motion to stay (pause) SEC case for six months while parallel criminal case is pending.
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Disagree! I find this development overly frustrating.
I mean, it's not really a win if Robert gets convicted in a criminal case. Do you know what the criminal case is, and who is bringing it? Is it a Federal case that came out of the SEC investigation, or is it something else?
I personally want to see Robert held criminally liable more than civilly liable. Jail time vs. Fines. Plus, at this point Robert is probably more or less broke, isn't he?
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