(Topic ID: 203700)

deeproot Pinball thread


By pin2d

2 years ago



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Topic index (key posts)

11 key posts have been marked in this topic, showing the first 10 items.

Display key post list sorted by: Post date | Keypost summary | User name

Post #111 Firsthand information from the Magic Girl programmer. Posted by applejuice (2 years ago)

Post #3026 RAZA promotional video Posted by vireland (1 year ago)

Post #5771 First RAZA gameplay video Posted by ZMeny (8 months ago)

Post #5874 RAZA video with more audible game sounds Posted by zaphX (8 months ago)

Post #5926 First RAZA video with successful ramp completion Posted by zaphX (8 months ago)

Post #5967 Another RAZA gameplay video Posted by flynnibus (8 months ago)

Post #6050 Closeup pictures of key playfield features Posted by Potatoloco (8 months ago)

Post #6133 Video of display animations Posted by LateCenturyMods (8 months ago)

Post #6329 Summary of Robert Mueller's interview Posted by jeffspinballpalace (8 months ago)

Post #6724 RAZA Gameplay video Posted by DS_Nadine (8 months ago)


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#45 2 years ago

I'm ready for some hot Jpop action for the price of a Kia. Bring that shit on!

What's left for John to rob from the EM graveyard? Rototargets? Flipping Flags?

#50 2 years ago
Quoted from pin2d:

I have no horse in this race - I'm not effected one way or the other if deeproot becomes a major pinball manufacturer or is a total failure, and I wasn't a Zidware customer.
If I were owed something from Zidware though, and knowing that right now JPOP has no funds to pay back Zidware customers and no means to make the machines without help...if deeproot can provide restitution to those effected by JPOP's past mistakes, isn't that a good thing? Or is JPOP so hated that - even if deeproot makes those effected whole - since they hired him, they'll never be accepted in pinball?

I think the issue is the Zidware suckers have already been "made whole" like 3 times and for the most part it always disastrously implodes. It's like a very sadistic Groundhog Day game for these folks.

I'll quote Ben heck "This can only end in tears."

Except for like 18 "lucky" Magic Girl owners I guess.

#86 2 years ago

That interview delivered!!!

Eagerly awaiting this promised "masterpiece!"

#100 2 years ago
Quoted from oohlou:

I don't know about you guys but I'm psyched for "the 5 days of deeproot"!!!!

If it's five days of bullshit as tasty as that interview I seriously cannot wait!

#112 2 years ago
Quoted from applejuice:

Hello,
I have only just seen this on the TWIP site (yes i find out this type of thing second hand it seems on a public website....) , and to say the very least am quite shocked to be honest. I have no idea where they've got the 100k figure from, or why the tone is so aggressive???
I was contracted for over 2 years from August 2012 to August 2014 (if memory serves) but i started in June 2012 and i pulled the plug in May 2014 after being 3 months behind on invoice payments. I had 4 visits to Chicago during that time. My contract had a 2 year gag clause in it which i upheld and I even returned all my prototype assets in return for John paying up on the 3 months left which he never did of course.
This type of blatant lie and random statements is just really bizarre. All i've ever wanted was to be paid up in full for what i did and receive a game. That's it nothing more. I even created the magicgirlcode.org site and helped out owners on my own time with issues as i want this game to be a good one. Feel like i've being kicked in the nackers again.... !!
If it comes to it, then i'll just publish all my invoices with the dates and amounts, as i still have all my audited records!

Did Zidware/John at least pay for your flights over here?! A couple meals here and there?

#117 2 years ago
Quoted from stpcore:

"Pinball is hard" seems to be the common consensus of all of the current pinball manufacturers. Deeproot seems to be taking an opposing standpoint on this. I find this puzzling yet interesting for many reasons.
That said if they are selling machines for 5K or less with industry leading quality I would tend to believe that their version of a pinball machine will not be what we are used to playing. Perhaps a modified/simplified version of pinball that's more affordable to manufacture and would appeal to people that aren't familiar with pinball.
The confidence and statments this company brings to the table are shocking. Are the other manufacturers intimidated...I would guess not. It will be interesting to see if they can live up to these public statements and hold themselves accountable should they not deliver.

These guys are a joke and like most of the other Johnny-come-lately disasters this decade they will not be held accountable in any way shape or form. The only dummy who didn't make sure of that was the Predator guy.

#147 2 years ago
Quoted from greenhornet:

money and legalese talks.
both jim and jeremy reaching resolutions.
perhaps this new found money and legal team will enable JPOP to enforce any pinball patents he may have acquired during the past few years. another win for innovation.

It's gonna be a big loss for pinball if nobody else can use that ridiculous Magic Girl cabinet design.

1 month later
27
#179 2 years ago

My favorite Deeproot innovation is the elimination of whitewoods and test machines, which have always been a huge waste of time and money. These guys get it!

#186 2 years ago
Quoted from clempo:

It is clear JPop is a terrible businessman but that's not his job here. JPop can be an amazing designer but he can never finish anything.

Is there a single "legend" in pinball built upon so little? We are talking about a small handful of games, from decades ago.

11
#189 2 years ago
Quoted from clempo:

That's exactly my point. If the formula worked to produce masterpieces, why not try to duplicate it.

The formula DIDN'T produce masterpieces. His games are for the most part poorly regarded by serious players. They are flawed games that some find gorgeous and some find incredibly tacky, with ridiculous, problem-ridden development cycles and BOMs that helped put Williams out of the pinball business.

People need to stop backing this horse already. The most spectacular failure in pinball history is Jpop's true legacy and most of us are completely sick of this horseshit.

#220 2 years ago
Quoted from vireland:

His next court date is Monday, so we'll see!

LOL. I can see the interview now...

"What John Trudeau just needs is a manager and a dedicated team to make sure he's focused upon designing the most awesome masterpiece pinball machines ever built instead of getting distracted online. We are confident that pinball is easy, and that it's easier still now that we have assembled the greatest pinball design team in the history of the universe."

#239 2 years ago
Quoted from PinB:

Does anyone know who helped tweak/finish World Cup Soccer? Any good stories there?
That's one of my favorite games that somehow has JPop attached to its credits.

I always thought it was steve ritchie but "someone else."

STEVE: Oh, World Cup. World Cup was taken over.

MARK: It wasn't a bad pin, it's still all right, actually we still operate it.

STEVE: In the end it turned out to be pretty Ok, but in the beginning it was handled by a newbie. The game designer was a stubborn newbie, and it had to be taken over by someone else.

MARK: Did this happen very often?

STEVE: Actually it never happened before unless somebody died or got sick.

MARK: Did he abandon the project or did he just get the sack?

STEVE: Neither. He cooperated, learned and latter did Theatre of Magic and some other really good work. But when he first came in he thought he just knew everything about making pinballs and it is just not that kind of thing. You have to live it for a long time, you must have an affinity for mechanicals and you have to be able to work with other people.

#243 2 years ago
Quoted from spfxted:

Hey! Anything that can POSSIBLY get those poor basturds their money back (or a machine) is worth a look see!

This is like the 3rd time they’ve been promised a lifeline.

At this point it’s past funny and is approaching cruel.

14
#275 2 years ago

I was skeptical until I realized deep root
Was the brains behind Elvira 3. Impressive.

#308 2 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

Honestly, I just cant figure out WHY he would have Jpop involved at all.
.

It's a cynical ploy, yet nobody has lost money in pinball recently underestimating the blind enthusiasm of people who can't get enough of "jpop magic."

He knows that even after all of this, there's tons of people just dying to believe that a "properly managed" Jpop can make their wildest dreams come true.

17
#312 2 years ago
Quoted from SprSnc:

"That we are aware of, no pinball machine ever manufactured has been truly “safe” or “suitable” for a home environment"
Interesting statement. .

There's nothing "interesting" about that statement, it's total unadulterated bullshit like almost everything they've said. A properly serviced pinball machine is about as dangerous in your home as vacuum cleaner or blender.

The absolute worst thing about the "pinball comeback" has been the parade of cynical johnny come lately clowns trying to jump on the gravy train before it derails and explodes in a valley.

#319 2 years ago
Quoted from rotordave:

Stick your fingers in a moving Time Expander to experience Dr Who at its finest ...
rd

That warning is great. I wonder who did the voice?

#354 2 years ago

That's cool. They've abandoned their "we'll make a Houdini policy" but glad to see they are standing firm on the "no whitewood or test machine" policy.

You gotta have principles!

#365 2 years ago
Quoted from BoJo:

Just rename it The Illusionist

And compromise the true creative vision of the genius?!?!?!

#369 2 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

Is it plausible that deeproot has a bunch of jpop pinball dioramas (ala Houdini), and just as American Pinball were led to believe they had a "nearly done" Houdini that they started showing and creating sales flyers for, the reality is jpop is awesome at dioramas and convincing people they are completed games (not needing whitewoods or test machines)?

I'll admit I thought his StyroKISS was very cool.

I almost sent him $15,000 right then and there.

#402 2 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

Can someone please just start a new thread when deeproot does more than hype and talk smack...
Pretty boring till they produce something

It's not THAT boring. I think most of us would be happy enough if they just keep doing what they are doing.

The last thing we need is more Deeproot threads.

1 week later
10
#469 2 years ago
Quoted from nephasth:

Nordman had a brief encounter with Heighway at one point in time... And check that place out now...

People will rationalize anything.

The fact that they’ve assembled this team of wash ups doesn’t mean the company plan is sound, or the people
They are paying have a firm belief in the company. It doesn’t mean ANYTHING, except that they convinced a bunch of old pinball designers to accept their money.

Sometimes the truth can be sobering.

1 month later
#737 2 years ago

So basically the 365 Days of Deeproot. Fascinating.

#741 2 years ago
Quoted from Roostking:

They have taken a beating on Pinside without people seeing games. They need to change that narrative and let pinsiders get to actually know the company, good or bad.

You don't think they'd have been better off not letting us get to know them?

3 months later
-4
#1001 2 years ago
Quoted from dnaman:

Coming in here very late to this thread but it is very interesting. There are a good number of industry folk who appear to be involved. That certainly has me intrigued.

Don't be too intrigued. Every single one of them was out of work.

#1004 2 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Probably because you can't afford to F up when you are spending millions of other people's $$$
Where is the "young new design talent" that understands pinball?
Probably making more $$ doing something else.

Stern is hiring people based not upon stuff they did 30 years ago, but on potential.

TNA is a huge hit and I've never heard of the guy who designed it before.

Deep Root is pinning it's hopes on Magic Girl, Gorgar 2 and Dr Dude 2 and AP brought the band back together for those of you who are big Lost in Space fans.

2 weeks later
#1031 2 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Lets wait and see what they actually produce before getting all bent out of shape over nothing. It's called keeping an open mind!

Oh yeah, when I think "pinside" I DEFINITELY think "open minds."

I still can't believe these guys are bringing Jpop back.

#1037 2 years ago
Quoted from Cheeks:

What's a bigger olive branch than assuming ownership of JPOP's pissed off customers, and giving them a free game?
Other than Pisiders needing something to be pissed about, I just don't get the angst here. If they hired JPOP and said F U to previous owners by asking them to buy one of his new games, I would totally get it. But that's not what they're doing. They're building games without taking money from anyone (whether that's successful or not remains to be seen) and in the process they're giving restitution to the people John screwed over. What the hell is there in that to be upset about?

I agree with you. Nothing to lose really. But this is like the 3rd JOP Savior to come along so try to temper your hopes..

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#1060 2 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

It wouldn’t help DR necessarily. I guarantee you investors don’t want a tax write off Odiner
They want to pay a shitload of tax. Means they made a shitload of profit

Not anymore. MASSIVE TAX CUT baby!!!

#1078 2 years ago
Quoted from bob_e:

First you have to make a PROFIT for tax write off.

That’s not even close to being true.

2 weeks later
#1236 1 year ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

but by the same token, absolutely nowhere near JJP games, and particularly Pirates.

LOL ya don't say!

Probably a good advertisement for not going so overboard on LCD development.

#1273 1 year ago
Quoted from 27dnast:

If pinball really wanted to attract massive amounts of dollar dropping customers, they’d ditch the entire concept of a head/backglass and look to redemption machines. Put in some super flashy lights, and use the head to house prizes... and make games simple to understand. That would attract attention.

The idea that pinball needs to become a redemption game is ridiculous.

Redemption games have ZERO room for skill, simple as that. They are completely different concepts.

A pinball-style redemption game might be cute but that's as far as it goes. You are never going to cross-polinate actual pinball with redemption because ops don't want to give away free stuff to skilled players.

2 months later
#1765 1 year ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

The market WILL crash if there's a serious economic shock ... and one looks due in the next 2 years, and probably unavoidable in the next 3 given levels of debt in major economies. For those not following, US public spending deficit will double to more than $1Trillion this year and continue to worsen as rates rise.
If the market's flooded when that happens, it will be a lot worse.

That’s good news. Do you think prices of original AFMs will be around $1500 or closer to $2500 US when this happens?

12
#1811 1 year ago
Quoted from wolfemaaan:

I got a good look at Magic Girl at Pinball Madness, and whatever J-Pop turns out with this company, everyone will be in line to buy.
[quoted image][quoted image]

Yeah we’ve all seen pictures of magic girl.

It’s a purple bombed box of lights that cost $20,000 and doesn’t work.

Where does the line form?

1 month later
#1934 1 year ago
Quoted from Rondogg:

I can't think of another show that suits a big reveal by deeproot other than TPF, which has become the best show out there, right in their backyard. This is very disappointing. Unless JJP surprises us, there may not be a big reveal of anything at TPF.

Great. I'm going this year and was looking forward to just playing a bunch of cool games, not a dog and pony show of people competing for Pinsiders' attention.

Just as Paul Masson will not sell any wine before it' time, I'm encouraged to see the Deep Root folks also adhering to this formula. Only when everything is just right will these games be revealed.

#2024 1 year ago
Quoted from Bublehead:

Ben heck, current VR may be dead, but is it going to stay that way? My experience has seen the equipment getting lighter and less cumbersome. It is just a matter of mass, bandwidth (resolution), and lag... once all three of those problems are ironed out, VR can be fun. I've played Beat Saber on the latest commercial gear, along with a bunch of other VR titles, and they are getting better. Not sure, but resolution and bandwidth and lag will be a problem with trying to play virtual pinball right now, but not that far into the future. You are spot on on the LCD playfield.

Nobody wants to wear that Shit. It’s why 3D TV flopped.

I’m not surprised at all that not a single person I know is into VR.

#2054 1 year ago
Quoted from Zablon:

I know lots, including myself. Yes, it has its drawbacks, but it also has its fans. I mean, come on, Pinball was dead too according to the populous and currently even though it isn't cheap it is still cheaper than pinball.

That's a terrible analogy, as I don't think anybody has invested tens of billions of dollars in pinball lately.

People aren't spending that kind of money to turn VR into a niche hobby "that has its fans" that most people don't even realize still exists.

All the commercials I've seen (or haven't seen? They don't seem to be running them on NFL games this year) feature loads of happy families, old ladies, kids, all with these dorky headsets on giggling and rolling around on the couch, joining in on the hilarity and techno wonder as a family, shocked and stupified at the dramatically changed world they live in. I think we can all admit that hasn't happened yet en masse, nor does it appear to be on the horizon, immediate nor otherwise.

#2067 1 year ago
Quoted from Zablon:

. I doubt having a headset on is really ever going to go anywhere until some tech comes along that allows you to just wear some form of contacts.

My mom ain't wearing no dorky visor and she as shit isn't gonna stuff some electro-contact lens in her eyes just so she can roll around the couch and laugh like those dumb ads on TV.

I also won't be doing that.

Just admit it: Pinball is huge and VR is a novelty which will soon be gone forever!

#2079 1 year ago
Quoted from Zablon:

no law suits 30 years later when you are running for office!

I really doubt that.

You think unsolicited dick pics are bad?!

#2090 1 year ago
Quoted from Sinestro:

Pinball doesn't need to keep up with something (VR) that has nothing to do with it.

Correct. Pinball has always done its worst when it tries to be something else.

1 week later
#2191 1 year ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Jpop is bad karma. Period.
Only the lawyers win.

I guarantee you on some laywers' forum there's a whole 500 page thread of people bitching about unpaid JPOP legal bills.

4 weeks later
#2285 1 year ago
Quoted from mrclean:

Speaking of Deep Roots in my backyard (these guys trample lawns when not using hoverboards).....I'm first hearing about all of this now, is a BTTF remake updated version from Deeproot really a possibility ?! I've always loved the theme, but to me the Data East version is lack luster. I recently just got two Boxer Puppies just turned 1! their names are Doc Emmett Brown & Marty McFly ! (Doc's the white one, Marty McFly is the black & white one)
[quoted image]

Yes!!!

It’s a possibility!!!!!!!!!!!!

2 weeks later
#2305 1 year ago

I'm pretty psyched about this game.

SHould the full-size Flux Capacitor go in the backglass? Or a smaller one on the playfield?

I'm guessing Biff sits this one out and all the callout money goes to Chris Lloyd, which is fine with me. he rules.

1 month later
#2468 1 year ago
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:

You guys aren’t really still thinking this is a real company are you ?

It's endearing in some strange way.

#2475 1 year ago
Quoted from brucipher:

If it weren't a real company, you would think a lot of the pinball design veterans working for them would have jumped ship by now.

These veterans were unemployed till DR came knocking, so as long as they are getting paid why would they jump ship?

The fact that they are still getting paid is promising. But wouldn't say it's a guarantee we'll ever see any pins.

#2480 1 year ago
Quoted from JodyG:

Any pins? Robert told us we would see more pins released from DR in one year than have ever been produced before. Has that statement been officially walked back yet?

No pinball is still easy and they'll still put out more games in a year than has ever happened. That's still the current info I believe.

#2486 1 year ago
Quoted from brucipher:

David Thiel didn't seem to need the job there...

Oh my bad.

Real company!

#2489 1 year ago
Quoted from brucipher:

I am not defending deeproot. Until they start shipping games they are just a bunch of hot air. It just seems to me they have their shit together way more than any of the other startups over the last several years. No need to be a dick.

They hired a bunch of old guys who were on the street, and threw a lot of money around.

I have no idea if they'll ever put any games out, but I don't see why you think they "have their shit together."

They've already starting the "talk big, postpone big" routine we are used to half a dozen times over from the new companies. Clearly it's a wait and see but don't see why you think they deserve the benefit of the doubt.

#2491 1 year ago
Quoted from brucipher:

Because at this point they have not taken consumers money, so why not give them the benefit of the doubt. If nothing ever shows up, oh well, nobody loses, and on top of that some old guys collected some paychecks.

Either they'll put out some pins, or it'll turn into a disaster like it always does. My personal doubt benefiting doesn't really matter one way or the other.

They've earned nothing as far as I'm concerned but that's just my opinion.

3 weeks later
#2580 1 year ago

I can’t wait to see the 80 page patent for their on/off switch.

#2582 1 year ago
Quoted from arcademojo:

And I'm just hoping they can make a more affordable (under $5K) game that shoots nice and fun to play. There is still room to cater to operators and bar-cades.

I can’t see how you’d look at that cabinet patent and think “cheap.”

Stern was selling games with playfield pegs for $5300. What do you think a game with a built in rotisserie system, about 3 sets of rails and hinges, and an elaborate counterweight system to keep the entire thing from flipping over and
Crushing you to death is gonna cost?

#2591 1 year ago
Quoted from NYP:

That's pretty far fetched to think they used a counterweight system, they're probably going to use a hydraulic system to raise and lower the legs to balance the weight.k

Damn! Deep root - hire this man!

16
#2592 1 year ago
Quoted from amkoepfer:

To me it looks like the playfield sits on rails ro make the playfields swappable, my guess is generic cab art or magnetic decals, swap the playfield, translight and side decals and you have a new game. Only one cab needed, possiblydo it with one or 2 connectors for a quick easy swap

This has been an unwanted and poorly
Received feature whenever it’s been tried. Making a game “swap friendly” has sold exactly
Zero extra pinball games in history.

15
#2601 1 year ago
Quoted from Bublehead:

We all buy one DR cabinet, then each title comes in its own shipping “Roady” case. These will be packaged so you can take them as luggage, and they will expect we take or “favorite” DR games with us to our friends house, who, having a DR cabinet, allows us to plug it in and play.
Sounds like a viable solution to the problem of “we got to go over to Dan’s house to play the latest DR title he just bought” and could you imagine a parlor of empty cabinets where we all bring are favorite titles and play? Like maybe a pin-alley?
Anyone getting where this is going?

It’s going nowhere because this is a solution nobody wants for a dilemma nobody has ever had.

#2611 1 year ago
Quoted from Zavadoza:

If there was a Williams widebody cab with swappable playfields of IJ, STTNG, and TZ for $10k all in, it would sell.

Right, and if my aunt has wheels she’d be a wagon.

You realize that what you propose we’d all buy is completely impossible from a cost standpoint, right?

Would this thing sell at the $30,000 or so it would actually have to cost to be feasible? Unlikely.

#2616 1 year ago
Quoted from Zavadoza:

You need to stop buying those $10 cups of NY coffee. It would be closer to 10 than 30 (so less than $20k).
Two words man. Octo assembly. Lol. I guess we will see.
I’m glad you changed your stance on a swappable game not being a good idea and that you agree that it’s marketability will come down to price.

Yes. I’m convinced. Your insane idea that I can one day buy 4-1 classic Williams widebody kit for $10,000 is indeed a good one.

Consider my stance changed.

Speaking of beverages, what in God’s name are you and ICe drinking down there in Texas. Is there something in the water?

#2621 1 year ago
Quoted from Zavadoza:

Its 4 games now? I love your snarky foolishness. It’s always been amusing. $30k is ludicrous for 3 modular games. We were only talking about the concept, not the exact pricing. Let the mfr worry about that.

The entire swap concept has been ludicrous since it was first tried in the 1990s. Nobody wants this.

Again you can dream up a cheap classic Williams 3 in 1 like I can dream up a 3 way with a reanimated Marilyn Monroe and a Young Sofia Lauren. Doesn’t mean it will ever happen or is even in the realm of possibility.

#2635 1 year ago
Quoted from thedarkknight77:

I think you are all crazy, swappable playfields makes so much sense on so many levels. I hope that is what the patient is all about. We are all running out of space and I am tired of having to sell my favorite games for space reasons.

I beg to differ but I’m an open-minded guy, id love to be convinced. It certainly makes Zero sense for the pinside crowd.

“Hey who wants to come see
My rad pinball collection?”

Vs.

“Who wants to come see my one game and stack of playfields?”

#2639 1 year ago
Quoted from thedarkknight77:

Oh so now we are saying you can only own one or the other??? Oh I forget,if I buy a interchangeable pinball machine, I will have to sell my collection? Are you people for real??

You can use as many question marks as you like but that does nothing to change the fact that 45 years of attempts At the swap playfield thing has never borne success.

Right???

#2640 1 year ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Well you and Kaneda of all people should love this concept with the limited expensive space you have in New York City

I don’t know about him but I got 15 games set up to play.

Not an issue for me.

Besides have you seen how we live?! Where am I gonna store a bunch of playfields in crates?

#2678 1 year ago
Quoted from jawjaw:

I disagree. The negatives have already been addressed and shown in reality. Game hardware (boards) become restrictive and cannot be updated with new games. Traditional cabinet artwork will not be possible. You will save some money but not that much. Populated pf's are heavy and cumbersome. You will need somewhere to store them safely and easy way to swap them. Not many people are physically able or will want to do this. When selling a pf, it will be impossible to demonstrate everything works. Even if you drop it in your cab to show it works, what happens when it does not work in another cab? It will add cost and complexity to something most people are not asking for. Most people just want a great game with awesome playfield features for a competitive cost. If this somehow makes pins cheaper or easy to maintained then that would be cool. On the surface it just looks like it adds complexity, costs, and more issues to deal with.

I love how people read something like this and then say:

"I can't believe you wouldn't be into a swappable playfield! It makes so much sense! Give me one reason it's a bad idea!!!"

Err...ok...

#2681 1 year ago
Quoted from branlon8:

Actually I‘m kind of still waiting for somebody to give a good reason. All I‘m reading is that people wouldn‘t want it.

Yeah you are right. Not a single good reason has been posted stating why it's a bad idea and has consistently failed whenever tried for the past 45 years.

These pinball companies are morons! Been leaving money on the table since Nixon was president!

#2682 1 year ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

Why are you guys discussing swappable playfields when there are none?

I'm sorry did I miss out on all the other fabulous Deep Root news we should be talking about instead?

#2686 1 year ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

You did miss out that (all of) you are disussing some feature wich doesn't exist/ is not mentioned in this patent.
That said, feel free to continue discussing off-topic stuff. *insert mom-joke*

Speculation in a Pinside thread?

welli-never (resized).jpg
#2688 1 year ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

Sorry, I forgot why no major manufacturer posts here anymore...

That's ok! Deep Root still does.

#2690 1 year ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

"Major manufacturer"
Let's discuss haircuts!
I have one.
(At least partially.)

Dude that's a low fucking blow.

Not all of us have hair.

1 week later
#2793 1 year ago
Quoted from Thunderbird:

No doubt the industry needs a pricing shakeup, because MSRP is getting way out of hand (going up and up with no sign of stopping in sight). If DR can change current craziness and do it, through their motto of “Pinball for the Masses”, this’ll be a new era for silver ball entertainment. Here’s hoping DR can bring some balance back, through decent pricing for the consumer, of top designs with fun and unique tables. Other industries figure this out, so why can’t pinball?

The industry has figured it out. A Stern pro provides everything you are asking for.

#2812 1 year ago
Quoted from Sinestro:

That is a very wide aspect ratio!

Looks
Like they plan on using a screen like the one on afmre

Does this count as 1 day of
deep Root?

10
#2904 1 year ago

I’m a little hung over and sun-baked from a few days in Florida...

But ball tracking cameras instead of switches? What in God’s name are you people going on about?

Why not train hamsters to follow the ball and register switch hits? Sounds even more innovative!

#2947 1 year ago
Quoted from benheck:

"Modern" pinball machines are laughably primitive compared to most other things.
If a large tech driven company bothered to do anything in the realm of Pinball they would squash every company like an elephant on an ant.

Don’t you think they’d just do something else besides fuck around with primitive pinball machines?

#2959 1 year ago
Quoted from Chippewa-Pin:

Any word on when the reveal is supposed to be?

You missed it!

It was at TPF.

20
#2982 1 year ago
Quoted from wolfemaaan:

And his games are still better than any pins released in the last 20 years.
f

His games suck ass.

The best one he ever made he didn't even finish (World Cup Soccer - thanks to whomever at Williams took that project over).

There's never been a single more overrated "classic" pinball designer than Jpop. I do not and never will understand the cult.

#2986 1 year ago
Quoted from 3pinballs:

I own 3 of his games. My collection is mixed and TOTAN is a great game. All his games shoot smoothly. Hated TOTAN, wife loved it, couldn't sell because of her, glad I kept it as it is a phenomenal game.

Yeah it's a dumb ass game with bad software and gimmicks he stole from ancient Williams EMs just like the rest of 'em.
Looks pretty though!

-2
#2994 1 year ago
Quoted from benheck:

Come on now.
If TOM or TOTAN had better code they'd be Top 3 pins instead of Top 10 pins.

And if my grandma had wheels she'd be a wagon.

You really like those games that much? Top TEN!?

Still under the Jpop magic spell!

18
#2996 1 year ago
Quoted from branlon8:

The guy who designed Cirqus Voltaire needs to bring out more games. Bring 'em on, please !

Just send him $15,000 and I'm sure he'll whip something up for you.

20
#3050 1 year ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

I think that is really dismissive of some of the very smart engineers that work at Stern for example.

Of course it is. I've seen this argument before and it's always stupid and offensive.

There are PLENTY of people who work at Stern because they WANT to. They'd rather work in the pinball business than somewhere else. Many people have turned down higher-paying jobs to work in the pinball industry.

Most pinball companies aren't just hiring people who are otherwise unemployable off the street. They are hiring talented people who want to work on pinball machines.

21
#3073 1 year ago
Quoted from benheck:

I found an image of what your smart phone would look like if it were limited to 35 year old tech like a pinball machine.
[quoted image]

Exactly.

That's why people like pinball, because it's basically the same as it was 30 years ago.

For everybody else there's Lexy Lightspeed. Don't exactly see those flying into everybody's collections.

People who want "innovation" should find a new hobby. People like pinball because it's pinball.

I cannot believe how many of you are taking this ball tracking camera to replace all playfield switches idea seriously. Why are you even into pinball if "old tech" isn't good enough for you?

12
#3088 1 year ago

I advise all of you innovation fiends to buy the Multimorphic product. It's the most innovative pinball machine in the market.

They are giving you what you claim to want, and what you aren't going to get from companies like Stern any time soon. Support them.

10
#3129 1 year ago
Quoted from wrb1977:

Could we please keep this thread on topic? This thread should be about deeproot and any associated updates, reveals, etc. This thread has in large part turned into a thread about new technology that could be incorporated into pinball. I feel there is plenty to discuss regarding new pinball technology to warrant its own thread. Just my thoughts and very much looking forward to what deeproot has to offer...best of luck to them...thanks!

If you truly love a thread, you must set it free.

#3139 1 year ago
Quoted from ultimategameroom:

Im not trying to stir the pot but as someone who was extremely upset at having missed out on preorder of the first two of the three games I am very curious as to specifics of the lawsuits filed by Jpop against those who filed suit against him.
what did they do to him do?
Defamation/slander?
On a positive note I Hope deeproot will produce these machines and deliver something to the people who preordered.
Wayne’s MM fiasco went on for many years (almost 10?)and amazingly the games finally got made.
hopefully another miracle will happen!

Wayne was a lot of hot air but he never stole anybody’s money. Hard to call it a “fiasco”.

#3198 1 year ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

I'm surprised how little discussion there is of how JPop absolutely screwed and took advantage of American Pinball.
The shenanigans didn't end with his Zidware operations.

Is this a joke?

You’d think bored rich guys trying to jump on the Pinball gravy train and milk some cash would be smart enough to do a “google search” as the kids call it before basing their entire launch on one dude?

People do a google search before buying a toaster much less throwing millions into making bad pinball games.

Zero sympathy. Probably why there’s been so little discussion, pretty open and shut case of idiocy.

#3219 1 year ago
Quoted from delt31:

Ok I thought it was some proto that was being converted. Would have been so sick.

Man if you like that cardboard Alice in wonderland you’ll LOVE that foam core KISS!

All of jPop’s paper games Are totally Sick.

#3271 1 year ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Apparently John took deposits on a "Space Mission X" game that is part of the claim?

I’m pretty sure there was a point where John would promise anybody any game they wanted with any features they wanted within any time frame they wanted and he would accept a cash deposit for it.

#3292 1 year ago
Quoted from benheck:

Yes like a doctor reading an xray, a dentist poking your teeth or a contractor looking at your walls.
Just because you don't notice something doesn't mean it's not wrong.
But hey it's art, easy fix.

In the end tho, the letter H hasn’t been changed and almost nobody cares. The gradient fill in game of thrones hasn’t cost a single sale of that title.

I think we all appreciate the efforts of the artisans involved in making our pinball machines what they are. But it’s undeniable that some things are more important than others.

And some complaints tend to seem a little more nit picky than others.

#3377 1 year ago
Quoted from TecumsehPlissken:

CV did so bad on route the games were sold alright ..... NIB at fire sale prices

For real.

None of his games were big sellers. Where do people come up with this stuff?

2 weeks later
19
#3423 1 year ago
Quoted from JodyG:

More hype.

Sit right back and you'll hear a tale...

A three hour tour!

A three hour tour!

38
#3503 1 year ago

So a problematic TNA is responsible for the "promise big, delay big" routine reminiscent of every other failed pinball start up?

Believe me, I hear that. I once had a janky lawnmower that kept me from filing my taxes on time.

I gotta say I was skeptical until he said those magic words, "dimpled like the moon." Are we finally gonna see some dimple-free pinball machines?

BRING. IT. ON!!!

38
#3530 1 year ago
Quoted from Bublehead:

If you are writing about deeproot, you are doing exactly what he wants us to do, talk about deeproot. Good, bad, ugly, it doesn’t matter to him, piss you off? Why not, you will still want to look behind the tent flap at the side show and see the new shiny things if and when (and when is really the big IF) they show up.
I think it is all pretty much Marketing 101... the more they talk about you, good or bad, at least you are on their minds.
If I was him, I would come on here and stir the pot every time this thread goes dormant... or wait, isn’t that what he is doing?

What does that actually accomplish?

Last year at NYCPC, we had a drunk crash our event. It generated 5 pages of discussion here on Pinside. Exactly ZERO of that "buzz" helped us grow the event, grow our team, or sell any more tickets this year. It was worthless.

This year, we had no such "drama." We had exactly ZERO discussion about the event here, as nobody on Pinside gives a shit about that stuff.The event itself was a huge success, with twice as many people (and income I may add) than last year. Pinside buzz or lack thereof it here had nothing to do with it - but the growth came from everywhere but Pinside.

So stow the "he's a marketing genius" angle, it's total bullshit. He's doing himself no favors with this amateur hour act. This is not how pros behave. This is not how the CEO of any respectable company in any industry behaves. It's doing absolutely nothing to instill confidence in his fledgling company, and it's alienating potential customers. If the product they eventually put out matches the laughable quality of everything else they've shown us so far - from the top - their games will be garbage.

Any "buzz" he's winning here is absolutely worthless. Pinside buzz is the cheapest buzz in the world to buy, but also wafts away quickly like a fart in the wind as soon as something else comes along, or people just get tired of it by lunch time. There's literally nothing easier on pinside than generating thread views through outlandish or ridiculous behavior, but in the end it gets you nothing.

He can talk all he wants. The natives are getting restless, and this is starting to look like every other shitshow we've seen in pinball. Promise big, delay big, talk shit...we've seen it all before. Great if you have a podcast. Worthless if you are trying to launch a pinball company.

If you think this is "marketing 101" you went to one shitty business school.

#3533 1 year ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Noise and legit interest are not the same thing
Pinball is small enough if you are making games... you don't really need to rely on drama to bubble your name to the top. A good product will get talked about enough on its own.

So sick of people quoting PT barnum.

Barnum was selling tickets to freak shows and circuses. He wasn't selling ridiculously expensive consumer products.

People just parrot this stuff without even thinking. "Duhhhh...it's marketing 101!!! He's getting you suckers to talk about him!!!"

Who gives a shit? Worthless. Especially when the tickets to this freak show are free (so far).

#3536 1 year ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

I don't get what you're writing (seriously).
First you write last years "buzz" didn't help with ticket sales & stuff this year.
Next you write this years event was twice as big.
As for me I never heard of the tourney before incident and know what it was this year. (With no effect for you of course since I'm halfway around the globe of course.)

I'll concede it's not the clearest point

I'll just say there was five pages of discussion. Zero of the people in that thread bought an NYCPC ticket (trust me, I have the registration list) nor will they ever. The buzz provided nothing but a distraction.

#3546 1 year ago
Quoted from Bublehead:

You missed the point. Your event did not stage the drunk crashing the event, you did not purposefully use this event to promote it the next year, you didn’t do anything PT would have told you to do, and you wonder why no buzz was generated?
Take a marketing course Levi, because anyone will tell you, it doesnt matter what you are selling, high end goods or tickets to freak shows, talk is talk is your name on peoples lips.
PT would have taken out adds the next year saying “come to our event, our event is so famous even the drunks crash our party”
That is Marketing 101.

If making empty promises and announcing countless delays while insulting all of your competition and a large portion of your potential customers is "marketing 101," why don't I see the rest of corporate America pursuing this model? You'd think if it's indeed "101" you'd see this all the time.

Is Deep Root the only company who has figured this out and brilliant enough to take this path? Are they the only ones who bothered with 101 in business school, and were the rest so arrogant they skipped straight to 102?

#3550 1 year ago
Quoted from Extraballz:

Taking into account the bravado of Deeproot I would say we will see something really great or absolutely nothing. No middle ground IMO.

I see it differently. I expect they'll crank out some games, if not the "tens" we've been threatened with. But my expectations are dropping daily based upon the entire tenor of this organization and its leadership.

Middle ground is exactly what I expect. I don't think we'll get the spectacular failure nor the mind-blowing success that would make for the two most entertaining alternatives.

Think "Houdini."

#3553 1 year ago
Quoted from jawjaw:

And the pinside keyboard warriors telling that guy how to do his business isn't just talk? So what if they missed a deadline they imposed on themselves? They have not taken any preorders or any money. They owe us nothing. They talk big just like a lot of people here talk big. Why waste the energy getting all worked up? You plan on running off their reps from pinside just like all the rest? Would you feel better to hear nothing until a game is announced to the public? Pinside lives off this drama.

Pinside lives off of people talking about pinball and what's going on with pinball?

vhh9hP3 (resized).jpg
#3607 1 year ago
Quoted from Bublehead:

The funny thing is, outside of Pinside, you ask a random casual player at an arcade, or off the street, “Hey, you ever heard of Deep Root Pinball, and did you know they are going to revolutionize pinball manufacturing?”..

Not sure why that's funny?

Blank stare.

#3613 1 year ago
Quoted from Bublehead:

Because the seriousness people throw around in here is pure bullshit on the planetary scale... because on this planet right now, statistically speaking, nobody gives two Hershey squirts about deep root pinball except Pinside. That makes me laugh, har-de-har-har!

In that case you should be drawing equal hearty guffaws from the Black Knight Sword of Rage thread, or in fact every word posted here.

Hilarity abounds.

10
#3619 1 year ago
Quoted from f3honda4me:

Wait, is the logo NOT meant to be a weird bird head? I thought it was a bird as soon as I saw it and couldn't figure out why the bird.

I would have loved to have been in on that "creatives" meeting.

"Ok, we have a terrible logo that reminds people of a butthole, or an avocado slung in a jock strap. Can anybody here make it worse, or at least more exciting?"

3 weeks later
10
#3851 1 year ago

Why are they wasting their time and money with all this bullshit?

Make a goddamn pinball machine already!

What is Brad doing to help make this happen, while we are still middle-aged?

#3930 1 year ago

Ancient Vulcan proverb:

Only Nixon can go to China.

#3950 1 year ago
Quoted from Paul1478:

Personally I took Deeproots comments as a joke. Maybe I am wrong.

It seemed kind of bitchy. He originally just told ben "Stay out of it" and then edited it to add the bizarre legal disclaimer.

Ben is ALWAYS pointing out what a hot mess Jpop is and it's probably starting to annoy them over there at Deep Root. Not sure why'd they care, not givin' a fuck is their credo.

32
#3958 1 year ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

edit: I have been warned that due to the litigious nature of some people with lots of money, that it is not worth the comment.

Is that all it takes to shut you up?

Hilton, for future reference, I have lots of money and I'm very litigious in nature!

26
#3961 1 year ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

we both know you are a broke. nobody with money wears sandals with socks.

I've never worn sandals with socks. The last guy who claimed I did has been banned from Pinside as well as Replay FX.

You'll be hearing from my lawyer, and can expect the same fate!

#3976 1 year ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

Levi PoV[quoted image]

Hilton PoS

#4004 1 year ago
Quoted from Monk:

The problem with draining it, is when there is legitimate information posted the thread will not be shown. I click every time this thread is on fire thinking there might be new information about games, but I should know better. I understand there will probably many more threads started when real information is released, but I still feel like I might miss it if I drain this thread.

FOMO is real

#4010 1 year ago
Quoted from jwilson:

You can safely drain this thread and have zero FOMO because there will be 17 new threads if and when Deeproot actually does anything.

Yeah it won't be too tough to figure out something is going on.

I can't wait for the announcement that they've plugged the "Countdown to Awesomeness Clock" in the break room back in. That'll be a big day for sure!

2 weeks later
13
#4199 1 year ago
Quoted from CLEllison:

Modular is the key on so many levels. IIRC there"s an Italian pin company that made their games modular so operators could literally go onsite, unplug and drop a complete mech and replace with a complete mech. Sling shots, pop bumpers etc. No longer spending hours ... just freaking brilliant. Playfield swap times severely decreased as well. VERY cool.

And it was a huge success and this Italian company is now a household name that dominates the pinball industry!

1 week later
19
#4232 1 year ago
Quoted from CLEllison:

Ok, whatever you say is the Gods honest truth. Next.

The gods honest truth is that the kit thing has been tried many times before and it’s always a failure.

It’s a dumb idea that doesn’t work in pinball. People just don’t want swappable playfield and “kits.”

2 weeks later
#4476 11 months ago
Quoted from o-din:

I was a little too old to take that show seriously at the time. I can see how it amused the kids though. It was kind of like Hardcastle and Fuckstick, or whatever it was called.

I was 7 and it was like my prayers had been answered. A talking car that flies?

SIGN ME UP!!!

1 month later
#4907 10 months ago
Quoted from RonSS:

I'm new to this thread. Can someone summarize the last 98 pages for me please?
30 words or less.

Pinball is easy. It's MAKING pinball that is hard. But it's still easy. You'll see.

#4990 10 months ago
Quoted from BMore-Pinball:

..."unprecedented 10 year warranty on PF wear and tear (which includes dimples)..."
Major shots fired.

Not really. Rob is just really good at telling people what they want to hear, when they want to hear it. If it were 2 years ago he'd be going on about his miraculous ghosting-proof inserts, or his indestructible cabinet corners.

There's are not shots, just the same constant dull thud of war drums we've been hearing for ages.

17
#4995 10 months ago
Quoted from BMore-Pinball:

Yes, becuase then they have to backup the warranty with some sort of quality.
I would be happy that it would cover my years of ownership as I keep games 5 years+
Even more bonus if they make it transferable.
Either way, it's better than anything currently offered by any other mfg.

A ten-year warranty from Deep Root is about as good as a ten-week warranty from Suncoast pinball.

Meaningless.

#4999 10 months ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

And that seems so strange. Gerry is one of the nicest people in the industry. I’ve never met anyone that had an issue with him.

Perhaps he dared to proffer what one might consider legal advice without a license?!

2 weeks later
24
#5064 9 months ago
Quoted from frolic:

This seems like such a recipe for disaster. A debut that "isn't" a debut with tons of cell phone videos and crappy players bricking the ball and exposing all the broken elements of the game. And the game will now have been revealed, you only get to do that once. By the time it gets shown again it's old news.
This is what low profile location tests are for.

Oh I wouldn't worry about that.

Pinsiders are known for keeping their expectations in check and being completely resistant to overwrought disappointment.

4 weeks later
#5238 9 months ago
Quoted from iceman44:

How many of you have paid a deposit on a DR pin?
How many of you have gotten reimbursed on the Jpop disaster from DR?
I took the pin versus a lesser cash benefit. Others took the cash and got PAID
Anyone bitching about DR coming soon has ZERO credibility other than they are either bored to tears like Odiner with nothing else to do all day but opine on Pinside.
It's not long now. The pitchforks are just getting warmed up for the haters no matter what. F ing hilarious because all you geniuses know wtf is going on.
I'm LMAO right now while i eat a bowl of chili.

Hey when is that Alien Vault coming again?

#5269 9 months ago
Quoted from Micky:

Have you been partaking in a few beverages again?

Yup. You should see my inbox. Imagine waking up to that garbage. Not to mention LMAO at three insane Ice posts in a row while I am in a deep slumber; yeah that's perfectly sober behavior!

Ice, once you sleep it off please get this through your head (I'll try not to say it too loud - I know you have a raging headache):

I'm not going to bet you $$ every time you crack open a six pack.

I already won cash from you as a result of your know-it-all proclamations, and I think I'll leave it at that. When you are unboxing your brand new Alien feel free to rub it in my face, but until then please just dial back on the drunk and crazy lever a little bit.

Thanks!

#5283 9 months ago
Quoted from vicjw66:

Well, in Levi’s defense, the guys at Stern are so thinned skinned that if you want them to sponsor your New York pinball tournament, you better damn well slobber all over their sac and proclaim everything they do is perfect. Does Levi lose a little respect in the pinball community for his “Pencification”? Perhaps, but I can’t really fault him for it.

Yeah, cause lord knows we couldnt throw our little tournament without 5 free translites.

I don’t really want any respect if it’s coming from morons, thanks!

Trust me, If I’m licking any sack, it’s gonna taste like G Fuel.

Mmmm....tasty G Fuel!

1 week later
#5365 8 months ago
Quoted from razorsedge:

From reading the statement is seems like this RAZA "prototype" will not be missing any gameplay or playfield feature mech "innovations", it sounds like robert is not classifying these aspects as "innovations" but merely what pinball already should/has had. Stuff that cost cutting by others has taken away.
I think the things missing that He calls the innovations will be alot of stuff inside, like operator features, servicability, playfield slide out/hang device, Augmented reality, VR, cabinet design.
System/Platform innovations, nothing missing that might impact on the ability to properly location test a complete, fully functional playfield/game in the public show setting. This scenario the bits/innovations that may be not revealed I guess may have little to nil impact on the ability to successfully fully test the Complete (with all the fantastic mechs) RAZA playfield prototype.
I dont think the insides of these games will be seen. Probably just in a standard generic cab, for testing the RAZA game on it's own.
Just my guess, based on the trickled statments.

I love watching you guys parse this stuff out like it’s the Rosetta Stone. Reminds me of the days when our greatest minds were tearing apart every letter of the latest “stern of the Union” to decipher if a ghostbusters code update was coming this week.

13
#5458 8 months ago

This was supposed to give my life meaning.

But it just looks like another big dumb pinball machine.

I’m not sure what I can turn to now.

Religion? Family? Friends?

Everything seems so empty and pointless now.

#5734 8 months ago
Quoted from minnesota13:

The rotating duck target on the playfield left side is cool, but is reminiscent of the Gottlieb Roto-Target.

Very reminiscent. It's basically a miniature roto target.

Pretty cool, but not sure how it's going to suit a modern game. The biggest problem with rotos have always been that they aren't reliably aligned, and that they are freaking huge taking up a ton of above/below playfield real estate. This small version probably takes care of both of those issues.

The question is if anybody cares in 2019 about roto targets. The return of the vari-target with Ripleys didn't exactly set the pinball world aflame.

#5828 8 months ago
Quoted from Fulltilt:

OMG is that Jpop?!
[quoted image]

Nope. That's actually Eddie Cramer, New York pinball restoration guy and official NYCPC tech.

NYC legend operator Al Cihak (pinaholic) in the right outlane. Not that anybody over at Deep Root actually knows this, they are just using the 5-year old zombie yeti art they tried to steal.

there's a story behind it but I absolutely have no idea how those two ended up in this playfield art in the first place. One thing is for sure, they probably sold about 20 games to Al by doing it!

#5905 8 months ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

Looks great? Seriously? People seem to be in the denial phase still.
Be honest. This looks bad. Really bad.
It is also entirely consistent with JPop's 'work' since the birth of Zidware.
The danger here is not that this sucks. It looks like it will. It's that the whole company is set up to succeed or fail around JPop's shit, and that the other designers end up as some kind of marginalised tech support team for him, who get ignored anyway, and whose own designs suffer as a result.
With 6-8 months to go until their supposedly final deadline for this machine or their product launch(es), I hope Mueller and the others have their eye on the ball, and are not fixated solely on JPop and Zidware's mess that he chose to involve them in.
With Robert sounding like he regretted his involvement in the shit show now, in that interview, hopefully that is the case, and he will make sure that everyone else can carry the company and product line.

Remember when Homer’s brother put him in charge of designing a new car that would save or sink his giant auto company?

It’s kind of like that!

#5908 8 months ago
Quoted from HighProtein:

My one request for Houston expo was for someone
to get a fucking tripod and camera, setup right in front of the damn game and let an above average player play for 10 minutes!
Naw...
Just misc angles from cellphones...
Huuuuuuge Debut turned into a test location for 2 days and random video shots...
Obviously the pinball revolution won't be televised!
P.s...
Oh well...

Dude fly there yourself and do it. Last minute flights to Houston can’t cost that much.

#5912 8 months ago
Quoted from iceman44:

I too hope that DR doesn't let Jpop take an entire company down again. I took the RAZA instead of the cash payment.
Thus far, not very excited about what i'm seeing, although certainly subject to change after playing it.
I'm gonna chalk it up to just not close to being ready for reveal and let's see where its at in March.
I don't get why these Jpop games take MANY years to complete, so many resources spent on them, and yet its still not done.
I want to see what else DR has to offer with the other designers.
I've been living with RAZA for 6 or 7 years now. Get it out there and move on quickly to the next game.
I hope you aren't hanging your hat on RAZA success.

I know you like to let it ride, but at this point wouldn’t it be wise just to accept whatever the first functioning machine is that rolls off of their line? It’s been a pretty long road bro, and there’s no guarantee there’s a #2.

16
#5919 8 months ago
Quoted from Manic:

Let's be fair. It was never supposed to be a HUGE debut... they repeatedly said it was indeed for testing and "player input". Hopefully they learned something from this and it helps the final product. I'm disappointed there wasn't any videos of decent players on it but what can ya do?
The yellow-green light from the show bathing the PF sure didn't do it any favors either.

What’s most odd is how this whole thing is so decidedly un-deeproot.

We went from “five days of deep root” to this?

It’s a “soft reveal” on par with cosmic carnival or Team Mafia.

I was at least hoping for the game to descend from the sky, or at least for some pyro.

#6026 8 months ago
Quoted from frankmac:

My opinion of RAZA is underwhelming at this point.
Pics look good.
Vids of game play lookS underwhelming.
No not the person playing or taking the video. The game.
Time will tell. Hope RAZA shapes up to be a winner in the end!

Reminds me of Houdini.

Except it’s 8 years in the making and they cranked out Houdini in a week.

Hopefully, unlike Houdini, they take some time to smooth out the edges. But on the other hand might be time to cut this (and jpop) loose and move on. It doesn’t make sense to get bogged down in another jpop morass when you have other projects in the pipeline.

#6072 8 months ago
Quoted from toyotaboy:

how does this happen? You're a PINBALL COMPANY. Even if it was play tested like crap before it got shipped and you forgot to swap them out, you are at a PINBALL SHOW. someone go buy a dozen set of rubbers from a vendor there.

Deep Root isn't a pinball company. They are an entertainment company. Like Rudy Ray Moore, the complete entertainment package: Movies, TV, Streaming, Vacation Properties, Auto Insurance, IP, Animation...complete cultural domination. Pinball is a just a small part of it.

17
#6074 8 months ago
Quoted from Richthofen:

All shots in the game should feel good FFS. Seriously, go token up a Jurassic Park Pro from Stern. Every. shot. Is. Satisfying.
The problem with Raza is a standard JPOP problem which is few of the shots return to the flippers. That slows the game down and prevents combos, which are a super satisfying part of modern pinball.

Right. The huge Jpop problem is he thinks stuff that indeed ARE cool in a game from 1968 are going to translate to being awesome in a fast, rampy, 3D playfield in 2019.

They aren't. People want speed, combos, flow. They don't want a roto target, or a TOTAN spinner, or a swinging target or a bunch of standups that you literally can't shoot directly and hope the ball will just ricochet into. These ancient EM elements are fun on slower, shallower pitch EM games, but they don't work in modern pinball.

After RAZA tanks I'm wondering if people will finally figure that out.

18
#6075 8 months ago
Quoted from Chicoman:

You can trash Jpop all you want...the guy was a terrible CEO but he's made some really good pinball machines. ToM, TotAN, CV, WCS are all really good pinball machines. You can take any designer I don't care who it is....Pat Lawlor, Steve Ritchie, Barry Oursler, Dennis Nordman and many others out there...they have all designed a dog or two.

There's not a single "legend" in pinball design who's reputation rests on so little actual achievement. Jpop's games NEVER sold, were mostly disasters for ops. Most of his games have glaring flaws that render them useless in tournaments or for good players who don't want to be bored in a week. He's always relied on recycled gimmicks that are so old most people don't know they are from the 60s, magnets, and flamboyant fantasy artwork, while neglecting things that players value, like refined geometry and quality rulesets.

His games have their charms but the best playing one - by far - is also the one that was taken away from him halfway through and finished by people who knew what they doing (WCS). I don't know why people expect anything different but this is just more of the same. I just don't get the spell that JPOP has cast, the grip he has on pinball collectors. It might be time to get over it people.

#6091 8 months ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

So the most important things we got from this:
- There's a lot of people around here that are just plain dead inside get their only joy from bad mouthing everything in sight
- We now know for sure why Stern doesn't show prototypes... or stopped posting here... and why Deeproot just deactivated their account

These are the least important things we got from this.

#6121 8 months ago

The band playing in the background of that video was pretty good. Nice garage rock vibe. Maybe we'll book them for NYCPC 2020.

#6158 8 months ago
Quoted from Nhpolarbear:

The Dude was there but not his machine.[quoted image]

I don’t think he has much hope for RAZA...

Or the Credence!

#6162 8 months ago

Jeebus!!

RAZA bringing out the keystrokes that’s for sure.

18
#6166 8 months ago
Quoted from kvan99:

Thanks for the info, it's good to see them engaged....the positive and negative comments can both be useful in the proper context. Honestly, Deeproot deserves praise for bringing a real working prototype to this event and not just a box of lights or slide show....The animations are top notch, and there is no shortage of toys on the pf...like I said in the earlier post, it needs tweaking and hopefully they will go back with some good notes. I'm cautiously optimistic, it's a first effort, and I think DR is only going to get better at this.

A low bar is kind and charitable. But we were told this would be different.

We didn’t sign up for “maybe it’ll get better.” This pin is supposed to humble stern, capture 40 percent market share, and basically redefine life we we know it.

Can The bridge between “underwhelming Jpop mess” and “here’s what you were promised with repeated and obnoxious bluster” be built between now and TPF?

#6176 8 months ago
Quoted from iceman44:

All of the reviews are great.
Two questions that matter most. How much will it cost?
How much would you pay for that game?

I'm not a NIB guy so I have no opinion.

But anybody considering it should take a look at the Houdini landscape and see how much trouble people are having in dumping theirs before committing to a "what I'd pay" price.

16
#6187 8 months ago
Quoted from pinlink:

Hey, did you see the part about this being a prototype? Jesus Christ, people.

Jesus Christ, relax dude. We all know it's a PROTOTYPE as they couldn't possibly expect this to sell more than a couple dozen of these games in it's current state.

Deep Root wants to play with the big boys? Well, knee jerk reactions from Pinside are all part of it. I'm sure they understand that.

This is nothing more than roasting the new guys. It's all part of the fun, it's what Stern gets every single sneak peak pre-release, and it's what they signed up for when they decided the world needed yet another pinball company. We'll see how it goes! I'd love to have more good games to play, and look forward to seeing this in its final non PROTOTYPE state. But yelling PROTOTYPE over and over isn't going to protect them from people forming early opinions on it.

#6241 8 months ago

IT'S A PROTOTYPE DAMMIT!!!

re earlier comment: 2000 plays is indeed nothing which is why people are so justifiably annoyed their Stern coil stops are breaking at 2000 plays.

#6248 8 months ago
Quoted from yaksplat:

The lack of reading comprehension skills here is epic.

ITS A PROTOTYPE!!!!!

#6250 8 months ago
Quoted from o-din:

Like with most prototypes, they are sure to become more valuable and desirable than the regular production games. In a few years we can marvel at the slight differences and tell those that ended up with them how lucky they are.

I think people are expecting the production model to be wildly different than the PROTOTYPE.

14
#6338 8 months ago
Quoted from zaphX:

He's not wrong. I've never seen a bigger collection of people who seem to hate pinball on a pinball forum.

Deep root aren’t trying to go for the “plucky upstart” thing that worked for spooky. That would be so far beneath them.

They are going for - embracing in fact! - the “obnoxious asshole” thing - and sticking the landing!! They are eliciting the exact response they are looking for. This is all part of their brilliant marketing plan. Not sure why you’d hold it against pinside for giving them exactly what they want.

#6353 8 months ago

Did he say if the countdown clock in the employee break room has been plugged in again?

Is there a countdown clock for the countdown clock?

#6371 8 months ago
Quoted from o-din:

Perhaps he is trying to make himself and the rest of us forget his own issues he had with J-pop, and perhaps some of the other promises made.

Christ, he's got beef with Steve Marsh too? Steve's a teddy bear!!

Is there anybody this guy won't get in the ring with?

#6375 8 months ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

No. Stern has switchovers nailed down. The reason they build larger batches is for economies of scale not because they are too rigid. Parts have lead times... they have minimum volumes...they get cheaper as you buy more at the same time... you lose production output as you switchover. Stern is highly optimized in they can cutover and be ramping to full speed with minimal productivity loss because they have their production processes and funnels so well defined. Thats why games have minimum runs... not because of size holding them back.
The “small batch” model doesn’t work because its too inefficient and increases per unit costs. You can make it work... you will just have much higher costs per unit, much higher overhead, much lower throughput, and thus much higher prices.

Yeah I don't get this line of attack at all.

I hear Primus was on and off the line in one day. All 100 copies. Stern's biggest "innovation," besides managing to stay in business in the late 90s through the 2000s, was flexibility on the line. At W/B, when a game was done, it was done, which was why they left thousands of MM and AFM sales on the table.

#6377 8 months ago
Quoted from o-din:

If you can take a deeproot beatdown, then they may have a position for you.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/deeproot-tech-job-postings

Oh come on, everybody knows I'm angling for a job at Stern.

Though Texas BBQ sounds way more attractive than Chicago winters.

10
#6384 8 months ago
Quoted from iceman44:

What's the point of doing an interview with Chris? His audience is the "Pinside sewer". He did steal that line from Steve Ritchie.
Not sure why he's trying to one up the Homepin guy?

The point was obvious: Let Mr. "no holds barred tell it like it is" lob softball questions at Rob so he can spew his usual unadulterated bullshit for two hours, without the usual pushback he got when he was doing the same thing on Pinside.

For Chris it was also a no brainer- land his first guest in forever who is actually (kind of) still in the industry and will get some people who have tuned out to tune back in. Chris can always turn on him and pull a Wonka later if he needs to drum up some fresh interest and a new angle but for now giving Robert a friendly forum was his best play and the biggest pop he's had in ages.

Seems like it worked out for everybody but doesn't really "move the needle" as everybody likes to say. Nothing has changed in perception or reality beyond the fabulous PROTOTYPE unveiling and I doubt any minds have been changed either.

#6387 8 months ago
Quoted from o-din:

How's that? I play almost every day and late into the night.
Maybe I just don't like your pinball?
It's like food, I eat what I like. If somebody else wants to eat dog food, that's up to them.

We all know all you eat are burritos.

Your house must smell great!

#6423 8 months ago

This thread has taken an unsavory turn!

Odin wants every thread to be That 70s thread!

#6438 8 months ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

Ony thing I "officially" get out from that podcast, is that Robert more & more refrains from that "Ferrari for Fiat" price statement.
They want to offer the best "value", aka. "best bang for the buck"...
...that of course is nice but still it'd be great not to fish in the same pond as everybody else (incomewise) and offer a cheaper alternative to a Stern Pro, to get other -new- segments of people into pinball.
(They just have to expand the market if they all want to stay in business and healthy.)

You still don’t get it.

In 2019 you can’t sell a modern, full feature commercial pinball machine for under stern pro pricing and still make a profit.

Inflation adjusted it’s pretty much the same as they’ve always cost.

#6448 8 months ago
Quoted from Monte:

How about at pro pricing or a wee bit more? Btw, love the new chair. It fits your decor nicely.

It’s going to destroy my social life. Hard to leave the apartment.

#6468 8 months ago
Quoted from cjchand:

Everyone keeps saying it’s impossible to undercut a Stern Pro.
I’m curious (and too lazy to do it myself): Has anyone priced out the hardware of a Stern Pro? Yes, that doesn’t cover software, design, support, distribution, etc. I’m talking orders of magnitude kinds of estimates here.
If the hardware is, say, 50% of MSRP, then things like production efficiencies could provide a decent edge. If the hardware is 75%+, then we’re talking something different.
And, yes, I know we can’t account for economies of scale. Again, just curious about whether the “can’t undercut Stern” line of thinking is based on fact or is assumed knowledge.

Yes there are dozens of posts here where people come up with imaginary BOMs and pretend they’ve cracked the code of exactly how much it costs. They don’t matter because they aren’t based on any reality, they are basically a parlor game.

#6501 8 months ago
Quoted from Daditude:

I am truly rooting for Deeproot. As pinball collectors and enthusiasts, we should ALL be pulling for them. More pinball companies equal better options, further innovation, and potentially even pricing wars.

Yeah, I’ve been hearing this since JJP entered the fray. Which, incidentally, is when prices started rise in leaps and bounds, a trend which has continued unabated. More pinball companies = higher prices apparently.

#6512 8 months ago
Quoted from frolic:

Is it possible to "disrupt" the pinball market with another mid to high tier manufacturer? We already know Stern Pros outsell everything else by a large margin, and everyone else is fighting over a small piece of the pie.

Yeah, Robert has cast himself in this ridiculous David vs. Goliath role (with he the courageous, plucky, fig-leaf wearing David and Stern the Goliath) when in fact his competition is American pinball.

There's almost nothing about any of this nonsense that makes sense.

#6516 8 months ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

I'm ready for some hot Jpop action for the price of a Kia. Bring that shit on!
What's left for John to rob from the EM graveyard? Rototargets? Flipping Flags?

Ha! Looks like I was right. This is from a year ago.

The roto is back! Shoulda brought back the flipping flags. Way cooler.

19
#6520 8 months ago
Quoted from razorsedge:

and why manufacturers and designers are smart to stay out of here, unfortunately.

It's not "unfortunate," it's a positive sign. It's completely unprofessional for the CEO of a pinball company to be on Pinside duking it out in the mud with everybody and acting like an asshole. That's OUR job, not theirs. That's why you don't see Jack here. That's why you don't see Gary here. That's why you rarely see Charlie here, and even the Planetary Pinball guy stopped fighting with people here and simply started cranking out successful remakes one after the other. If you are running a pinball company, you have better things to do than argue with people on pinside and talk shit about all of the other companies, designers, artists, etc. It's completely unprofessional and counterproductive.

It's not surprising it took RM TWO YEARS to figure that out, but then he's learning as he goes along, isn't he? Now that he's figured that small detail he out, he can work on the other 6.2 million details that going into actually producing a pinball machine.

Hopefully the learning curve on that is faster than it was on figuring out he had a better use of his time than beefing on Pinside. Though that Kaneda appearance doesn't inspire much confidence.

#6531 8 months ago
Quoted from Rondogg:

I've had a few discussions with Jersey Jack. He had some not so rosy things to say about his competitors. He doesn't post on Pinside. Smart man. Robert's learning. Lots of Pinball people start out here and quickly realize they have nothing to gain and then disappear.

Does the GE CEO post on a toaster oven forum? Is the Barcolounger CFO telling people on the furniture forum that La-Z-Boy is "weak" that "the bigger they are the harder they fall?," while talking shit about various other people in the industry on a podcast?

NO.

I don't understand why pinball attracts such lunatics. "Robert's learning?" Ok so it took two years for him to figure out not to carry on like that here, but he's still going to Kaneda with the same act. Another two years from now and maybe he'll figure out that's not smart too?

How anybody could have faith that this is going to be a successful enterprise is a complete mystery to me.