Thanks for taking the time to do this great article. I'm going to Disney next month and I think I'm looking forward to TPF more!
Exciting times for pinball. Good luck to all involved and hope to see some great products in Texas.
(Topic ID: 203700)
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6 months later
I don't really know how to rate games the way some of the top players do. I will certainly say that the games were not an initial hit as they all made it to some sort of close out if I recall correctly. CV being considered the worst game for operators at the time. Ultimately the art style of the games is now desired and the layouts are fun to shoot. The code is certainly the biggest disappointment but a casual player is almost always impressed with what people consider the JP big 3. I want to see some games out of deeproot. I'm excited to have another option out there for our location games.
Quoted from branlon8:So you‘re saying if somebody likes TOM, TOTAN and/or CV they are at best casual players? That „serious“ players would not be impressed by these games? Nice touch.
Not at all. I'm saying that casual players tend to appreciate the game more than someone that reads code before they play a game.
Again I'm excited for everything pinball. Casual players love Gerry's games. We have had them at some locations with great collections and it's held up. Gerry's support to the customer is the best we have encountered. I hope deeproot delivers and I would definitely be a great customer for them.
Different is not bad. Having a different prespective is what keeps these games so interesting. American plays different than Stern which plays different than JJP and spooky and so on. It really is cool to have all these different visions for pinball.
2 weeks later
Quoted from Bublehead:I think the play that DR is making is based on the desire to create another set of 4 machines like the original 4 that sold well in the 90’s, and that JPop can hopefully recreate the same “magic”. And there are a lot of loyal followers of JPop’s machines and they are not players but operators. People seem to forget these titles made a bunch of operators a lot of money in the nineties, and who would not want another piece of that? JPop had a pinball vision back in the 90’s, but he had help, as I have heard a lot of rumor and mummers over the years that all four of JPop’s titles needed a lot of help from others to get the machines actually built. I never put much faith in rumors, but they came out of mouths of people who would have known, so I always put JPop down as a bit of a idiot savant on pinball design, with flashes of briliance that inspired others with his vision, and that the others then went and made it work. A title sells because it makes money. JPops machines made money. Ergo, DR is hoping that this can be recreated again in the 2020’s. I think that they are trying to brush some of that “bad” JPop taste out of peoples mouths and just trying to limit the bad publicity they knew that hiring JPop was going to cause. I say good luck DR, lets see what you got.
I opened every machine John has made in the 90s brand new. Zero of them at the time earned well or even significantly. I can also assure you that CV and WCS made it to close out which top titles from then never did. I was also discounted a totan that I forgot I had until I opened it when I moved to my new house. Either way the games are desirable to collectors now and they do earn better now than they ever did back then with TOM being the exception. Now I am not saying they are not beautiful and all that, we are strictly talking about at the coin box and the amount of units sold at retail.
Nah. I don't really sell anything. That's part of my problem.
Quoted from chad:Local alley got two of them at $1895.00 each
I remember my dad calling me and asking if I thought we should buy a Rowe wall box, I think it was a starbrite at full retail and be given a CV from Betson or if we should save $950. I thought CV in parts was worth $950 so that's why we had some extras. I also have a few that were pillaged for parts but never played. Haha. That game was considered a dog in the 90s
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:As long as we are reliving dreams ... did you buy many of the spare CV playfields that went for $25? That would have been a ridiculous return if you bought 10 and could sell each for $800 today. That’s 3200% or vaguely 100% annually for 32 years. If you were a stock broker, people would read your whispers
I don't think those ever to our access. I do have a ton of 80s Bally fields populated. I have a handful of 90s game fields but those were given to me at Williams when we visited.
3 weeks later
Quoted from harryhoudini:If you think what JJP is producing is close to what was available in the '90's you're smoking crack. The complexity, deep ruleset, PC-based and detailed playfield mechs and toys is way past 90's era games and quite a bit past what Stern cranks out. The LCD and movie integration, especially on WOZ, is huge. I'm all for innovation and unique/new concepts in pinball but putting my JJP games next to my top level WPC games is like night and day and I love my WPC games.
I will certainly agree with the game rules being far advanced. Mechs, not really. Just used differently. I appreciate every manufacturers take on pinball and the direction they are taking it.
Quoted from LTG:That isn't quite accurate.
Gary kept the doors open in the worst decade in coin op ever. Look at the year the investor came in. And the games Stern made leading up to it. They were rolling, the investor made things bigger, better, faster.
LTG : )
Llyod is correct 100% here. Gary is a great business mind. Sometimes we disagree but I know he is a big part of this side of coin op staying alive to grow into what we have today.
1 month later
Quoted from LTG:HaHaHaHa.
Most people here never uncrated a NIB Williams pin from their DMD era, or even before or after.
I have.
Why would you want Jersey Jack Pinball, Stern, American Pinball, Spooky Pinball, to lower their standards and match the problems and issues of a by gone era ?
LTG : )
I have uncrated every game since Pinbot. I will say Stern still is the champs at packing a game into a box. I have seen one NIB roll off of a semi truck at a freight terminal. Hit the ground. Roll. Game was still perfect. JJP seem to pack really well too. Spooky could use some work in this area. Multimorphic has improved a lot from the start when I got the first unit until now. Heighway was not good at packing. Dutch was not great either. Funny but I've never unboxed a CGC, you would have to ask one of our techs.
I remember a few issues with 90s games coming out of the box, nothing major. I've probably opened over 100 Williams games. Plus a lot of the populated fields for early ss held up well also.
What is your experience Llyod?
Quoted from LTG:Unboxing Gottlieb, early solid state Stern, Bally, Williams. I've probably opened in excess of 150 pinball machines. The Williams DMD era it seemed each pin had a few days tweaking to get things right and working. Occasionally missing parts, etc. Usually minor inconvenience, only a couple dead in the water. Not counting a prototype Jackbot that probably got used for test, crated and shipped, more likely a mix up at the factory.
I don't have experience with Stern SPIKE games. Stern Whitestar and SAM games had the 90's Williams beat on out of the box quality. No experience on Multimorphic, Spooky, American Pinball, Heighway or Dutch.
For me Jersey Jack Pinball and PPS/CGC games out of the box has been excellent. Since I usually get early JJP games, a few had updates. Hobbit ball trap guard for in front of pop up characters, Pirates a change on Black Pearl pivot brackets. Bear in mind I work for both companies, so take what I post with a grain of salt.
LTG : )
Very cool Llyod. Thanks for sharing. Part of my job as a kid was to play them after I unboxed them, I never had much issues with things working and never had one that was missing parts. Very neat to here your perspective. I remember hearing that betson once had a junkyard missing parts but that was never our experience. I do remember thinking it was such a big deal to unbox these games. Now I could care less about it but my kids are always so excited. There circle is complete, my dad would laugh about me being so excited and say "it's not a fun thing, were in the business of bringing fun. The fun comes after it's paid" lol.
2 weeks later
Quoted from flynnibus:But the operator market was different then. Things moved FAST. Games were swapped out jamma style because you'd replace a non-earning game with a new one that would earn. Operators would have so many pieces, storage/space was an issue and it was cost effective to repurpose cabinets because if a game didn't earn anymore.. it had no resale value.
Pinball isn't like that these days. You don't have carcasses filling your warehouse.. you don't have off route games that have no value. You aren't putting out AFM on ice to put in MB. There is so much greenspace still that you try to put that AFM somewhere else to earn, or sell it.
TL:DR - unlike the 80s.. the 'out of fashion' game isn't dead weight these days.
Software rules updates have really helped out operators. If a game is not popular out of the gate, sometimes you can hit a home run later with a rules update that brings a player back to a game they previously were not fond of.
Quoted from Fulltilt:For pin players that can be true. I think for the majority of other "teenage Jimmy" players who put $1.00 in a machine and the game play sucks, they generally won't be coming back to it.
It can go a bunch of different directions. Location pinball for casual players, in my opinion, is directly associated with how relatable a theme is to an individual or a group. People are loving Wonka. Some say gameplay and IP is not the best but overall it has been a good investment. Time will truly tell but it's out of the gate with a bang.
1 week later
I want to see the community made complete. Regardless of how large or small this action was, whether the intent was for PR or legal, I'm just glad individuals were made whole. Paying back a debt/obligation is a huge step in the right direction. Now we will hopefully see some games and people will begin to take delivery. I'm cheering for them because I think there can be a new creative vision added to pinball. They may not replace any of our current manufacturers. That's good. They can bring their own twist to the community and I will certainly support them in their venture once I see what they have to offer. Good luck. Hope to see your vision for pinball soon.
2 weeks later
2 months later
Excited to see what is revealed and what is the timeline for the release of games. Hoping it's only a small wait as we have a lot of interested customers.
Quoted from Roostking:Why would you even mention DR to customers at this point? What are they interested in?
Some of our customers read these forums. They ask questions about the games and any potential info I may have. I don't have any info beyond what I am reading here but I always stay informed about potential products for any of our sites so I will continue to research and keep my eyes peeled.
1 week later
Quoted from Coyote:Er, you must be meaning 'recently', as two of my locations back in the 90's were test locations for Bally/Midway. And we gave them data.
What locations were they? I am interested as I love the history of pinball and we are close in location. We operate more than half the state of WV.
Quoted from Coyote:This was back in the 90's, down in Georgia.
Challenges Arcades (both locations at North Point Mall in Alpharetta and Duluth) and Tokens FFC in Acworth, GA.
We were to send them weekly earnings reports, any tech issues that occurred. We weren't allowed to update ROMs unless they told us it was okay. On some games (like WCS, Carnevil) they would send a rep down to go and pull some readings or make changes.
On vids we sent them updates. We had a full arcade redemption center at the Pittsburgh International Airport. I don't remember them ever asking for anything where they were on site for pinball but on MK, Carnevil, Area 51 and Cruis'n they certainly asked for data. If I can find it, we still have forms that they sent with the units to specify data on cruis'n based on time of day. So they wanted data prior to 5 pm and then data post 5 pm.
Quoted from wesman:I'm a poor player, and I intentionally try to never double flip. Occasionally it'll happen by reflex. I don't compete in tournaments because I suck. Why waste the platform, time of myself or others to wait on me, or money, if I suck?
Knowing when someone sucks at something, understanding our own limitations, is never intimidating. It's the opposite. Empowers me to make smarter choices, like what I said above.
You don't suck, your just not as good as the gals you hang with. 
Quoted from Frax:Horrible rules? Give me a break. It's literally the same as MM, RfM, AfM, Scared Stiff, Monster Bash, and ANY OTHER NUMBER OF GAMES that are ALL "Shoot X shot Y times to start/finish Z mode. If you don't like the weird layout, fine, but if you're bitching about the rules..... lol....well, you certainly must not like most of the most popular Williams/Bally games of the era.
I think jpops Williams titles are more mode based. MM and AFM are more as you are describing. Monster bash is mode based too. I think some of the flaws are within the modes. For the casual player they are fun, my kids favorite game is Arabian Nights but once you get to a depth of rules it is much more shallow than the other consider "A" title games from the 90's. I am not a hater of any of his games, I dislike CV the most but the others are ok. TOM you can time out or in competition you would just shot the orbit (advance clock) and that's about it.
I am excited to play this game as I will judge it for myself.
I am with most here and not understanding the game being a proto at this stage but I'm happy to have another game on the road for people to play.
Quoted from razorsedge:Maybe to simulate the gameplay of a game that's been thrashed for 2000 plays?
But who knows really...
I am not sure what our exact science is on plungers and flipper mechanics failing but 2000 plays should not be the gauge for failure rate. We have sites that go through 2000 plays in less than one month. If the game breaks down that quickly then I feel there is a QC issue. All manufacturers of late have had issues but I feel this had to be made aware to the manufacturer and it should have been corrected. Save if the unit has unique flipper mechs this is easily solved.
Quoted from razorsedge:Who said anything about the flippers Failing? ... I thought someone said weak? ... oh well.
It is pretty funny if you think brand new flippers perform exactly the same as flippers that have done say 2000 plays (or whatever, sorry I just picked a random gummy number). I never said how much weaker, but maybe enough that you cant make the ramp from a trap? .... you know just to see how players reacted.
Pinside.... what a "special" & unique place!
crikey ...
If they are weak that has failed the game play. Have had games at the brewery that have 6000 games on them, no flipper issues. Not weak not stuck nothing. So I get it, the games at home are played much less. I am just giving my opinion to you on failure rate in the field as most would not realize what it's like to play your games 20k+ times.
Either way thanks for your opinion. I mean to no ill will just having an objective opinion.
Also another observation I was making was in 28 hours, 2000 games is a lot. You figure there are some very good players and some not so good but the average would be almost 72 games an hour which we all know is very unlikely.
Quoted from wesman:From seeming like eons ago, sorry for the late reply here.
Haha, I do! I hope they can continually beat me, then point back, and tell anyone that will listen who gave them some pointers, long long ago....
More importantly, I trust you're onbard Chris to pick up some of these for Helicon, Starport, and maybe that other venue you mentioned awhile back.
I will. I have no communication with the company however so I can't project anything.
1 week later
Stern flippers certainly feel different than the 90's games but we never hear customers complain about the flippers when they are playing with new or proper coil stops. This is really the only issue, other than that Stern games flip incredibly accurate and have a great feel. You can criticize the materials and I'm happy to hear your opinion however the feel and response to the flipping of a modern Stern is excellent. It's not better or worse than a Williams/Bally game it's just a different feel.
11 months later
There is a lot to digest in this thread. One thing I would be interested in is, what are the updates like for $50/month. Is this additional code worth it? I'm hoping it's just not big fixes and normal things but features within the logic of the game. I will never say never, like previously stated, we as hobbyists and operators are spending more and more on location pinball. Side note, the cost of a game is still the same per play as it was many years ago. I am not sure how we can cross over to charge the correct amount and stay in business at this juncture.
Final thoughts are, if it's worth it then, I would do it. But there has to be additional value for both myself and our customers. I can't say for sure what it will look like so my thoughts are just speculation, but I hope whatever the end results are, there is value for the player in it.
Quoted from Looprunner:We were ready to support Deeproot. My wife and I watched the stream. She loves the theme and ramp. Zero percent chance a new company is getting subscription money from me. They might get me to buy an upgrade but I'm not paying for a subscription until the value is proven.
All very true. I'll roll the dice to see where it all ends up but I totally understand your stance on it. We basically have subscription services through a bunch of companies, ie raw thrills, incredible technologies, touch tunes, ami, usa tech, etc. Some provide more value than others but this has been going on in coin op for many years now. You buy something and it's not the end. Haha
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