(Topic ID: 203700)

deeproot Pinball thread

By pin2d

2 years ago

Topic Stats

  • 6,834 posts
  • 610 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 days ago by Fulltilt
  • Topic is favorited by 189 Pinsiders


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Topic index (key posts)

9 key posts have been marked in this topic

Post #111 Firsthand information from the Magic Girl programmer. Posted by applejuice (2 years ago)

Post #3026 RAZA promotional video Posted by vireland (7 months ago)

Post #5771 First RAZA gameplay video Posted by ZMeny (20 days ago)

Post #5874 RAZA video with more audible game sounds Posted by zaphX (19 days ago)

Post #5926 First RAZA video with successful ramp completion Posted by zaphX (19 days ago)

Post #5967 Another RAZA gameplay video Posted by flynnibus (19 days ago)

Post #6050 Closeup pictures of key playfield features Posted by Potatoloco (18 days ago)

Post #6133 Video of display animations Posted by LateCenturyMods (17 days ago)

Post #6329 Summary of Robert Mueller's interview Posted by jeffspinballpalace (15 days ago)

Topic indices are generated from key posts and maintained by Pinside Editors. For more information, or to become an editor yourself read this post!

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#2657 8 months ago
Quoted from thedarkknight77:

Few thougts......First off, why are people making so many small minded assumptions.

Um, you realize what website you are on, right?

1 week later
#2756 7 months ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

So I am very much looking forward to this.
(And I can only win. Either I get a great game or save me some money. )

Sums up my sentiment exactly.

If they ship and it's awesome, great. If they never ship, the tables suck, cost too much, etc, then take your money elsewhere.

Speaking of money, I don't get why people are concerned about how much money they're burning through. It's all coming out of Robert's wallet, so why should we care?

Anyway, happy speculating, everyone!

#2779 7 months ago
Quoted from Fulltilt:

I'll be f*ing dead before I get my RAZA machine. I'm going to get my attorney to put it in my will.... just in case it ever shows up.

Maybe you can ask to be buried in a RAZA cab. Might be the only one to ever exist.


#3111 7 months ago
Quoted from soren:

Pinball is traditionally a product with reliabillity issues.

For my new-to-pinball friends I refer to pins as “Rube Goldberg machines, with scoring.” The fact that they work even somewhat as intended - especially decades later - is a miracle.

1 month later
#3752 5 months ago
Quoted from Tranquilize:

Commas are required with coordinating conjunctions, no exceptions, but if you read the quoted sentence, the conjunction is not coordinating. A coordination conjunction (and, but, or, for, nor, yet, so) requires indpenendent clauses on either side; otherwise, the conjunction is just a conjunction and does require a comma. Commas with conjunctions that are not coordinating happen often, and in the case provided, one could be used. I just wouldn't use one, and it's definitely not required.

Looking forward to the sub-thread about the Oxford comma

2 months later
#4589 3 months ago
Quoted from o-din:

And I just bought a Ferrari for the price of a Fiat.
[quoted image]

Nice, but not as nice as my hybrid Subaru Baha. Efficiency in the front, storage in the back.

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1 week later
#4747 3 months ago
Quoted from Extraballz:

Wait........did Steve Richie tell you this?

He did tell me I should play better.

2 months later
#5304 24 days ago
Quoted from pinballwil:

I hope not ist a zizzle game for 3.5k
Or a standard machine voor 8k.
They sell games from 3.5k to 15k.
Can't wait to see how the pricing is.

Given the talent they have amassed, there’s no way this is Zizzle 2.0. I’m patiently, and eagerly, awaiting to see what they have - even if this is just a prototype.

What I *really* want to see is the “innovations” we keep hearing about. 99.9999% sure we won’t see that at Houston, but hope it’s not far behind.

#5357 22 days ago
Quoted from toyotaboy:

"TWIP: Is there any concern at deeproot that the launch may never happen?
RM: Zero concern. We are spending over $750k a month now on this project, and that will increase through launch. That is unsustainable without a launch in the short term."
And that was 11 months ago.

Saw that URL and immediately thought, "OH NOOES!" Glad, as you pointed out at the end, that was from last year.

#5624 20 days ago

Just played multiple games on RAZA and came away very impressed. Will leave it for tomorrow for details, out of respect for the DR folks.

#5694 20 days ago
Quoted from DakotaMike:

I hate that people keep saying RAZA has a Zombie theme. I mean I get that its in the name, but art-wise it seems a lot more like a retro sci-fi theme, mixed with some carnival type stuff. The only zombies I see look more like space-zombies that could just pass for martians. Maybe it needs a name change.

Agreed. Honestly, after playing it last night, I came away with a Comet/Cyclone/Hurricane vibe. JPop even referenced this in his interview on TWIP.

#5732 20 days ago
Quoted from epthegeek:

It's only to 'score an inlane shot' in games designed for that. Dialed In dumps in front of the sling. Monopoly Dumps in front of the sling from the train. High speed dumps in front of the slings. Big Guns too. I'm sure there are others I'm not remembering.

High Speed, as well.

#5876 19 days ago

Opinion from someone actually here at the event: The game isn’t perfect, but it is far and away the pin I played the most. It has that “one more game” feel in spades.

The shots aren’t in your typical places, so it definitely takes time to find them. But, I would not call it “bricky” nor compare it to that infamous magician pin.

Typical rule applies: Play it before forming a deep opinion. It’s too hard to convey the feel of a pin via videos, even professional ones.

#5880 19 days ago
Quoted from zaphX:

One machine was under a super bright light, the other was super dark. Neither was easy to shoot, especially if the person playing was not someone you know. You wanted to give them space.
I do wish I’d had my streaming rig for this.

That was one of my main pieces of feedback: The GI was way too dim. There was plenty of lights, so fixable by simply turning them up.

#5883 19 days ago
Quoted from zaphX:

I don’t think I got it on video but I saw it made quite a bit, and made it myself quite a bit. It was not a frustrating or disappointing shot.

I would liken it to the ramps on MM. it’s steep, so takes a good hit to make it up there. I would say I averaged about 30% success. Tended to hit multiple in the same game, then might not make any in the next. All about getting that groove and hitting it on the fly. It was pretty hard to do from a trap.

#5982 18 days ago
Quoted from frankmac:

It Is a open thread of opinions.
Let’s keep It a open line of opinions.
For better or worse.

It is when people who have not laid hands on the game express misinformed opinion as fact that it becomes a fools errand to try and share our experience with the community.

#5985 18 days ago
Quoted from frankmac:

Most have only seen pics and vids at this point.
While the pics of RAZA look great. The vids of RAZA game play are far from great.
Who can post a link of good game play Video anyone?

Sadly, people holding out hopes of a stream-worthy video will be disappointed. That isn’t going to happen. Fans taking their personal time out of their day to share any video with the community I would hope would be appreciated, not dissed because they’re not film school graduates. It sure as hell doesn’t encourage me to share (and I’m back home in Dallas, so don’t ask ).

While I share the opinion that this is a PR miss for Deeproot, realize from their standpoint, this was a field test - plain and simple. As such, my advice is to view all of this info through that lens. The real product is yet to come.

#6149 17 days ago
Quoted from Pinballer67:

IMO...everything premature here. Why would DR offer something in this unfinished state? ....

Or are they holding something back? I see this weekend’s events as a site test - nothing more.

Can’t confirm, but I got the distinct feeling from talking with the DR folks - and I talked with them a lot - that these prototypes were purposefully stripped down. I guess the intent was real world tests on the layout in general, as well as mechs, input on the theme, etc. I think the lack of “innovations” shown was 100% on purpose as not to show their hand.

We will see in March, I suppose.

#6151 17 days ago
Quoted from Potatoloco:

What I would really like to see is some sort of accelerator / diverter / drop target put on this ramp. Have the drop target (s) be hit to unlock the ramp itself, but allow the ball to plop back down on the playfield as intended.

Good point, though I would actually prefer it not to plop at all. Maybe go down a lower-value ramp ala TOTAN.

Quoted from Potatoloco:

I can’t wait to see the final product of that because I much prefer this over LCD and movie clips.

Agreed. It’s much easier to integrate the animation into the overall experience. JP2’s animations fit into the overall experience better than Wonka, GoTG, Stern SW, or Elvira where you get a framed video laid on top of the rest of the normal background. It just feels tacked on and doesn’t really add anything to the game experience, IMHO. Call outs are far more important to me than video.

#6163 17 days ago
Quoted from JRocket:

One of the staff in attendance was the Head of Engineering, who I had the pleasure of speaking with for a while. He told me some things that I won't share, but needless to say what was said illustrated that he isn't "head in the sand" and takes a serious, objective approach to his work. I also spoke with the VP of Operations for more than an hour just shooting the #*$@ and talking pinball in general. I really enjoyed that converstaion and it was a highlight of my time at the Houston Arcade Expo. He is a great person and seems to really know what they are up against, but is still confident that deeproot will bring value to the market. We spoke about different ways to reach out to and include the pinball community with the launch in March and beyond (all ideas for now) in a more "personal" way. Any frustrations I raised about current game design, he thought the same and always had deeper insight into the issue which showed they have already thought about it internally.

Agreed that Craig (VP, Eng) and Sean (VP, Ops) were really gracious hosts. We had a great time talking with them.

I can reiterate your comments about Deeproot's "silence": They are watching here and listening, just like any other manufacturer. They do have - IMHO - a proper assessment of where they stand, what the community is asking for (where reasonable and informed), and I get the impression they have more under the hood (figuratively) than they showed at Houston. As I mentioned separately, I think this was just a field test for them. There's a reason the word "prototype" was used *many* times leading up to this.

I'm really excited to see them take the wraps off of everything at TPF and see how much of Robert's swagger becomes reality.

#6169 17 days ago
Quoted from littlecammi:

Come on now, you're being too courteous when you're supposed to be pouring gasoline on the fire in this thread.


#6174 17 days ago
Quoted from iceman44:

All of the reviews are great.
Two questions that matter most. How much will it cost?
How much would you pay for that game?

Depends on how you derive value from these boxes of lights.

I could see it landing at Stern Pro pricing, presuming the comments about the sculpts not being final, code getting finished, etc. If this entered JJP Standard Ed territory, that would be a tough sell for me.

Of course, I'm a cheap ass, so most anything post System 11 is a tough sell

On the topic of value: It was really an adjustment walking over to Elvira, which I had never shot prior to the show. The playfield felt cavernous compared to RAZA (and most any other game, to be fair). Shots were easier to make, but they were also in the same spots where they are in every other fan layout. I played one game, lit up multiple modes, and felt I had seen everything I needed to see. I had way more fun playing Striker Extreme, another pin I had never played, than Elvira.

Point is, theme can make up for a lot of the perceived value in a game. There's alot of folks who are Elvira fans that will be totally happy with that pin. For me, it was just another fan layout.

I just dropped more on a pin than I ever thought I would for TSPP. Being a huge Simpsons fan, the theme adds to the layout and insanely deep rules. I paid just a touch more for it than a NIB Stern, which - logically - doesn't make sense. But, I'm happier with a 15-year old TSPP than a NIB JP2.

$0.02 deposited

#6265 16 days ago
Quoted from dc2010:

Could be because I had time on this pin and and face to face conversation with the engineers....

I spoke with the DR folks at length, as well, and it's clear that DR was holding stuff back. To Levi's point, the real question is how much.

There's two broad options:
1) What we saw was 80%+ what we'll see in March, with most of the changes being spit, polish, process... and a sprinkle of "innovation"
2) Robert's promises come true and we get our minds blown

My vote is for #1. All of the "innovation" we keep fight.. erm, disagreeing about is not likely to be above the playfield.

Lame, but pertinent, example: I noticed when they popped the playfield that every mech was connected via Molex connectors. Been done a million times, especially by folks like Chris at HEP. But, imagine how much simpler - and cheaper and less error-prone - it is to assemble a pin when you don't have to solder stuff on the assembly line. Not a "mind blown" situation, but it is an example of how I expect DR to keep costs down.

IMHO, folks expecting levitating balls and augmented reality are likely to be sorely disappointed, though it's easy to understand how they were led to expect that kind of stuff.

My guess is the "innovation" will be more around online connectivity and manufacturing efficiencies and the final product will still look like most other pinball machines.

Until then, we get to bitch about who is wrong Look forward to having a beer at TPF and finding out who is right!

#6266 16 days ago
Quoted from adol75:

I saw a bunch of RAZA videos and all I saw was balls hitting nothing and staying in the lower part of the playfiels. No flashing, no calls, it really looked boring as hell.
Prototype or not, it was the reveal of Deeproot first game after years of bragging about themselves and spitting on everyone else. I also had to check my monitor setting twice I thought it lost the red and blue color, I really hope their is a lot of people out there who like green, well super green actually.

It didn't look like that in person. Was a factor of the crap lighting. Scroll back for someone who posted color-corrected pics that are closer to reality.

#6274 15 days ago
Quoted from noitbe1:

I liked your comment but I hope you're wrong

It’s a win-win. If I’m right, I win the Pinside guessing game. If I’m wrong, we get a lot of cool new pinball stuff

#6318 15 days ago
Quoted from branlon8:

Wow! What did the game look like underneath? I’m so curious. Were there tons of circuit boards and bus cables or was it a “proper” pin with the electronic and driver transistors in the backbox and separate cables for the playfield features?

They only slid out the playfield just enough to see the sides of the bottom half. Other than the Molex connectors, what I saw looked like any other pin. I didn’t get super nosy. It was clear they wanted to keep what is under the playfield a secret and I wanted to respect that.

#6334 15 days ago

Pretty much aligns with most ratings systems. People feel compelled to review when they are passionate about something, which tends to be strongly positive or strongly negative.

That's why I always read 1-star reviews on Amazon to get a real gauge on a product. Most of those 1-star reviews are about items that are DOA or damaged, but sometimes it's about the shipping or seller. Only if it's about usage of the product itself do I take those reviews into account.

#6335 15 days ago
Quoted from zaphX:

He's not wrong. I've never seen a bigger collection of people who seem to hate pinball on a pinball forum.

#6457 14 days ago
Quoted from adol75:

62.000 pinsiders even if there's a lot of inactive accounts, most likely a lot of operators here, a big portion of serial buyers, I would say treating Pinside well can have a significant impact on a pinball company.
Then there is google and with the numbers of pages and word count that Pinside has on each brand, the link often shows up on first page.

Yep. The same Pinside that swore off NIB pins during the last round and this round of #clearcoatgate, yet continues to buy them.

You can definitely gauge overall trends and sentiments here, but there is definitely a *very* vocal minority that speaks the loudest. Pinside is not to be ignored, but it is not to be blindly appeased, either.

#6465 14 days ago

Everyone keeps saying it’s impossible to undercut a Stern Pro.

I’m curious (and too lazy to do it myself): Has anyone priced out the hardware of a Stern Pro? Yes, that doesn’t cover software, design, support, distribution, etc. I’m talking orders of magnitude kinds of estimates here.

If the hardware is, say, 50% of MSRP, then things like production efficiencies could provide a decent edge. If the hardware is 75%+, then we’re talking something different.

And, yes, I know we can’t account for economies of scale. Again, just curious about whether the “can’t undercut Stern” line of thinking is based on fact or is assumed knowledge.

#6490 14 days ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Let's clear up some simple math here for the mathematically challenged!
"BOM" or Bill of materials is also known "COGS" or Cost of Goods Sold

I get your overall point, but BOM is not COGS. The BOM is the Bill of *Materials*. It is a component of COGS.

The point of my question was to “guestimate” what percentage of COGS the BOM was. If the BOM is an overwhelmingly large part, then it comes down to process and efficiencies in manufacturing, design, back office, etc.

Again, we’re all talking out of our asses here, but that’s Pinside’s stock-in-trade

PS: Hook ‘em!

#6492 14 days ago
Quoted from frolic:

Where does building a custom Deeproot theater fit into the COGS?

Ultimately, it gets amortized across their products sold. Same way every paper clip, computer, back office salary, etc does.

And I have to think their “Theater” is simply a room in their existing facility. We’re not talking Apple here. There’s not going to be hundreds of people coming to attend a DR launch event.

#6505 14 days ago
Quoted from cjchand:

I get your overall point, but BOM is not COGS. The BOM is the Bill of *Materials*. It is a component of COGS.
The point of my question was to “guestimate” what percentage of COGS the BOM was. If the BOM is an overwhelmingly large part, then it comes down to process and efficiencies in manufacturing, design, back office, etc.
Again, we’re all talking out of our asses here, but that’s Pinside’s stock-in-trade
PS: Hook ‘em!

Not that this wasn't a dead-end conversation to begin with, but after listening to the Kaneda interview, it's clear that "value" doesn't mean "value priced". Am I mis-remembering the "Ferrari for a Kia's price" line of talk from Robert?

Since Robert was not happy people were thinking RAZA needed to be priced at/below Stern Pro pricing, my armchair financing exercise is even less pointless than when I started.

So, what shall we all argue about now?

#6506 14 days ago
Quoted from zaphX:

I tried to be still, do it landscape, and capture the DMD as well as the playfield. All without getting in people’s personal space, lol

Even James Cameron wouldn't have been able to get a good video in that place.

#6713 11 days ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

Depends. If you came for information about Deeproot, come back in March 2020. But if you are here to get deeprooted or if you came for rumor, drama, speculation or if have a conspiracy theory, welcome home.

Someone needs to make “I got Deeprooted” T-shirts

#6745 8 days ago
Quoted from Shapeshifter:

Looks more fun in that video.
And there are 4 battles to be coded so it could end up being a pretty cool game.
That said, that right ramp is a design flaw, pure and simple.
It's BS that 'it's meant to roll back'.
Fix that and this game could surprise a lot of people.

I spent alot of time playing RAZA and I can tell you that the ramp absolutely was intended to dump out in the middle of the playfield if you didn't make it up to the end of the ramp. It was cut out there specifically to let that happen, ala TOTAN. There's even a set of standups that increase your multiplier right under that area which you can nudge the ball into.

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