Alice in Wonderland
Zidware Pinball USA, 2013
Celts
Haggis, 2021
Magic Girl
Zidware Pinball USA, 2017
Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland
Zidware Pinball USA, 2012
Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland (Arcade Edition)
Deeproot, 2020
Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland (Xtra Edition)
Deeproot, 2020You're currently viewing posts by Pinsider brucipher.
Click here to go back to viewing the entire thread.
When I read the most recent Deeproot interview, I took it more as they would develop a machine based on Jpop's previous Houdini design (but not necessarily call it Houdini).
They specifically said they are happy to add John's Houdini design to its portfolio of games. That doesn't mean they were planning to make Houdini.
Quoted from o-din:Does this mean we may finally be getting that Marshall Brodien pinball machine?
God willing!! 
Quoted from o-din:Perhaps they should partner with Dutch and Heighway, and if they pool all their resources they could make everybody whole.
Why not go for the Predator license and throw Skit B into the mix.
Quoted from spfxted:The deal is good for people that were never going to sue Poppadoosh anyway.
....also, let's not hang these guys until we see what they can do. If Nordman is there, something must be right....
Well put. First disclosure, I have no skin in this game, but have been following the saga pretty closely.
I do not get all the negativity towards deeproot. I still have no clue why they all got into bed with Jpoop in the first place, but this is seeming like the best chance for those who had skin in the game to actually get something out of it (excluding those who are part of the lawsuit). Even if the machines aren't the best games ever, something is better than nothing, which is where this seemed to be heading.
If all these other seasoned designers (Nordman, Oursler, etc.) are on board, deeproot must be doing something right to encourage them to sign up.
deeproot clearly has a lot to prove, why not give them a chance rather than jump all over them?
Quoted from flynnibus:The promise of a steady healthy check?
These guys need to eat too... and contract game design isn't like hollywood movie star money
True, but it appears deeproot has pretty deep pockets to pay all these people, without taking money from the community. That's also a step in the right direction.
I get all the anger, but really, what does anyone have to lose at this point? Why not give deeproot a chance and then get angry if they don't live up to their words. They have promised more than anyone up until this point (outside of Jpoops original promises).
I find it really hard to believe this is going to be VR based - especially based on the terms of the Zidware customer program. I would be pretty ticked if I had $9,500 in the game with Zidware, which got me two machines, and in reality it was just two VR software packages. Not to mention Robert talked about how people love to bash things with a metal ball - you can't get that same feeling in VR.
Now augmented reality (AR), there is something I hadn't considered before which could make some sense. You still play on a physical machine, but wear some sort of glasses which project an overlayed image on the playfield. For those who aren't familiar with AR, check out Microsoft Hololens, or the Star Wars Jedi Challenges AR game. Not sure if this is really practical, but could actually be really cool.
Quoted from pinlink:What is "the first generation of games"? Is that like the first game you make? First 3? First 10? I don't think you even know what the hell you're taking about anymore.
Why does it have to be a specific number of games?
In my mind, Stern has had 4 different generations when you consider the boardsets - WhiteStar, SAM, Spike, Spike v2. Different boardsets alllowed for upgraded tech - USB updates, RGB lighting, HD displays, etc.
I just take deeproot as saying in the future they may expand upon what their machines will do beyond the first generation (however long that lasts).
Quoted from Aurich:I think it sucks that in 2018 we're still talking about Jpop, and he's still working in pinball, and that's my take. If anyone doesn't like it, well, that's life.
If we weren't still talking about JPop in 2018, then a lot of people who had skin in the game would be getting absolutely nothing. Again, as long as deeproot keeps their word, a lot of people will get something out of the whole fiasco. Would it have been your preference for JPop to completely vanish and those people to get nothing?
Quoted from Aurich:They gambled, they lost, so it goes.
Do you think the majority of the people who gave money really felt like they were "gambling"? The community took him on good faith that he would produce pinball machines. We didn't have a whole slew of failed attempts at that time to learn from. It's not like they walked up to a roulette table and placed it on red knowing the risks. If I am not mistaken, the whole idea of crowdfunding was still pretty early on at that time (at least from a mainstream viewpoint).
Sure, anyone today who gives a large sum of money to start a pinball company is crazy - the community has learned from it's mistakes.
Despite his explanations I still don't get why Robert brought Jpop on with all his baggage, but I am thrilled that those who were out money may still get something in the end. From my viewpoint I will tolerate Jpop still being around if those who invested aren't left high and dry.
Quoted from frolic:i'm not even good at this but sometimes you just get inspired.
Could you put slits in the pants with his hair coming through?
Quoted from wcbrandes:I've sent my 4,995 canceled check cashed by Zidware with popadiuks signature on the cashed side (back) but doesn't seem to be good enough? I would also like to see if they will credit me the 5 bucks lol
How the hell is that not good enough?!
Quoted from benheck:Oh I'm dead serious.
Not that they would, but if a company like MS Valve or Oculus wants to build a head tracked virtual pinball they would make all our tiny industries efforts look like a kid playing with Lincoln logs.
Why go this route versus VR pinball? I am not a big virtual pinball cheerleader, but of anything virtual I've played, Pinball FX2 VR (which I play on my Playstation VR) is the best so far (in my opinion). The tables look great, the effects going on around the table are quirky and fun, and to me it feels the most like real pinball. I have to imagine VR pinball would be way cheaper than head tracked virtual pinball with 3D glass...
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:Really seems like a sort of VR or virtual something is involved here, I think you are right
Maybe it will end up being a multi-pronged approach. Maybe they will release a physical machine along with a digital machine (like Pinball FX3) at the same time...hit both markets.
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:You guys aren’t really still thinking this is a real company are you ?
If it weren't a real company, you would think a lot of the pinball design veterans working for them would have jumped ship by now.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:These veterans were unemployed till DR came knocking, so as long as they are getting paid why would they jump ship?
The fact that they are still getting paid is promising. But wouldn't say it's a guarantee we'll ever see any pins.
David Thiel didn't seem to need the job there...
Quoted from CrazyLevi:Oh my bad.
Real company!
I am not defending deeproot. Until they start shipping games they are just a bunch of hot air. It just seems to me they have their shit together way more than any of the other startups over the last several years. No need to be a dick.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:Clearly it's a wait and see but don't see why you think they deserve the benefit of the doubt.
Because at this point they have not taken consumers money, so why not give them the benefit of the doubt. If nothing ever shows up, oh well, nobody loses, and on top of that some old guys collected some paychecks.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:Either they'll put out some pins, or it'll turn into a disaster like it always does. My personal doubt benefiting doesn't really matter one way or the other.
They've earned nothing as far as I'm concerned but that's just my opinion.
Fair enough...I respect your opinion.
Quoted from Richthofen:Except Steve Bowden gave up his teaching career to move to texas and go work for DR. This is the part that worries me. People like to think "What's the harm in Andrew Heighway/JPOP/etc blowing money", but there's always collateral damage. AppleJuice not getting paid for coding work. The game designer for Heighway who was unpaid and basically made broke. There's always collateral damage when you look behind the big personalities. When DR fails, it will mess over a lot of people, like the investors in Robert's funds, which will then make it harder for pinball manufacturers in the future to raise capital.
Sure, you are right, there will be collateral damage, but any of these pinball veterans (whether they have worked in pinball before, or have been a part of and followed the pinball community for the last 5 years or so) should know to do their homework on a new pinball startup. I feel for the likes of AppleJuice and the Heighway guy, but we know those stories now, and anyone accepting a job with a pinball startup have lessons they should have learned. There is a risk involved with taking employment with any startup, regardless of industry. Again, I am not a cheerleader for deeproot. They have a lot to prove and could very well fail just like the many other recent pinball startups. But at least they are not scamming consumers out of their money like pretty much every other recent startup that failed.
77 days left until deeproot has to deliver games to the people who submitted a claim (per the goodwill terms). I wonder if they'll meet the deadline....
Quoted from benheck:When you take your time machine back to 1998 to get cheap CV's don't forget to buy up a bunch of $1 Apple stock
Grab me the winning Powerball lottery numbers from the last year or two while you are at it.
Quoted from Pinzap:LOL... i can get you the winning numbers for the last couple years from my living room couch. What you need is the ticket!! But my luck would be my friend would bring me back a winning powerball ticket from a couple years ago only to find out they become invalid after 365 days!!
Lol...I am a moron.
Quoted from JodyG:You have quite possibly the worst luck out of any pinball machine owner I have ever encountered, or your engineers are not very good. It sounds to me like you guys messed up your "test" machines during the reverse engineering process, and now want to blame the manufacturer. Rebooting/Problems turning on are not exactly common issues.
No kidding! I've been in the pinball hobby for about 9 years now, have owned about 25 different machines, and in all of that time have had fewer major issues than the ones he just mentioned.
I really hope deeproot puts out a quality, fun, economical product...but it is really hard to like the company with someone condescending and arrogant as the spokesperson (and at the helm).
Anyone who accepted the goodwill terms and doesn't take the money is silly (being nice *coughstupidcough*). Use the money to buy a different game now, play it for a year or more, then sell it to buy a deeproot machine.
Quoted from JodyG:Really curious about how the pricing will humble the competition. If they are able to sell these things for sub-$4k, we are in for a wild ride.
I think even if it is in the 4k-5k range it would be interesting. Looks more packed than a Stern Pro...and at that pricing would still be less.
Quoted from valgalder:Just wondering what happened to the cool back glass art? Now it's just a logo?
Per the article/interview the art is not final.
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:Don't forget, not only are they showing games, but they've said they have revolutionary manufacturing techniques........
Wasn't it "quad assembly" or something? Also playfield you can hit with a sledgehammer.
I believe it was bumped from quad to octo.
Quoted from TreyBo69:I think most people are trusting Steve Bowden's judgement at this point. Isn't he still like the only noteworthy name that people trust over there? (I hope the best for Steve and that his passion for pinball isn't being exploited)
As far as I know, David Thiel is still with deeproot. He seems noteworthy and someone I'd trust with his experience in the video game and pinball industries.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:If the checks are clearing that’s all he needs to know.
People are grasping at straws to try to convince themselves this isn’t a disaster and the j pop games of their fantasies will one day be flowing out of the factory like a River of day glow neon.
Hey you know roger sharpe was working for Dutch pinball at one point right? None of that means anything. Except that their paychecks are clearing.
The person I replied to made a comment about nobody else noteworthy being at deeproot. I never said just because he is at deeproot that things are fine - on the contrary, I personally think deeproot is f'd. I was just stating that I thought he was still at deeproot (which may not be the case) and seems trustworthy and is a noteworthy person.
Since 9.21.20.B.d first appeared, I was wondering if the announcement might not be until 09/22/2020 if "09/21/2020 is before deeproot". Guess we will find out soon enough...
Quoted from okgrak:Whoever trolled us with that fake reveal countdown. Hats off to you....
It was probably deeproot
Quoted from f3honda4me:Except they had the countdown on their live stream...
It was never deeproot's live stream...
Quoted from Drewscruis:This reeks of kman....
Wasn't him... Dude came on twitch after the countdown. Missed most of what he said.
Quoted from Pahuffman:Basically he thinks they made a mistake by not setting a time. They also were unaware of the fake stream situation and thinks they have some damage control to do for people who legit got fooled.
It was a funny troll, but I certainly won't trust this guy in the future for anything.
How does this effect the people who signed the goodwill agreement? Weren't they owed something this month?
Quoted from frolic:This is like when jpop showed up with the empty cabinets at expo 2014 and wondered what everyone's problem was.
There was a FREAKING COUNTDOWN for weeks counting down to this day, and they didn't know what they had was a problem?
This speaks volumes about how the company is being run in general. What a train wreck.
Is the lockdown bar a screen? Maybe a touch screen?
EDIT: all of the fingerprints on the lockdown bar screen makes me think it is a touchscreen for interacting with the game.
Quoted from dung:Because p3 is kind of a turd. It has a few people who love it but for most its too much emohasis on tech and ignored what made pinball fun to begin with.
P3 is what happens when you design by comitee. People want swappable playfields. Reality, you have multithousand dollar games but can only play one at a time and have to have stoarage not to damage expensive wall hangers.
People want digital interaction. Reality, bittom of the playfield is barren. Physical toys are non existant. The games are interesting the firs r few times but lack replay sinilar to pinball 2k.
Don't even bother arguing against it. Numbers speao volumes. Price isn't the problem either because there are plenty of new machines sought after in its price bracket. The interest just isn't there for a reason.
My theory is the hobby is dominated by middle aged men (which I am) who just want the same old thing and many of which don't like change. That isn't necessarily a bad thing since the games of the last few years from all companies have been fantastic, but just the way it is. Just look how the themes are dominated by old school 80s stuff, old rock bands, and super heroes - and these themes are constantly the ones requested. I've not played a P3, so I can't really comment on how fun they are, but I am sure there are a lot of people who won't even give it much of a chance because it is so different. I'd love to spend some extended time on one, especially Heist. From the videos I've seen it looks fun.
In this case with deeproot, I personally like the wrap around translite, but the stilts are highly unnecessary and are strictly for visual "flair" (which doesn't do it for me). I think the touch screen is an interesting new idea, but horribly implemented. We've also not seen what is new under the hood. Needless to say, deeproot has totally shit the bed and now they get to lay in it - I am no deeproot fan. Regardless, I am sure there will be plenty of people ready to throw money at them if they ever release something.
I personally like the Pinbar. Feels like something fresh that could add to the pinball experience. Of course it will depend how it is implemented.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:Exactly. I've been saying this for years.
And there's a reason for that. It's because pinball isn't about innovation, it's about pinball. The entire allure of pinball is steeped in tradition and nostalgia, not shoehorning in tech that it doesn't need.
Deep Root calls their ridiculous "pinbar" "The most revolutionary innovation in the history of pinball."
Move over flippers, pop bumpers, score reels, solid state technology, digital displays, and digital sound. Here comes a bulky sharp-cornered lockdown bar with a screen nobody asked for. And if that ain't enough for ya, we got a new hammer proof clearcoat that has the texture of an orange peel and comes with dimples pre-installed, with the added impossibility of them ever flattening out because it's harder than a diamond.
The most revolutionary innovations in the history of pinball, ladies and gents.
I thought you were going to sit this out?
Quoted from BobSacamano:Who's going to build the first adult themed pinball machine?
Deeproot always reminds me of Deepthroat.
I suppose someone could program one for the P3 platform.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:Ultimately, They’ve been bad for the Hobby and the industry and we will be better off as a whole once this sideshow leaves town.
I've been no deeproot cheerleader, doubted them from the beginning (and still have a lot of doubts), but I don't really understand this statement. How have they been bad for the hobby and the industry? They haven't taken anyone's money (in fact they have given some people money back - and I still say those who didn't take the cash settlement were suckers). Sure, RM has been pompous and egocentric, but that's just forum drama. I guess you could argue that supporting Jpoop and keeping him in the industry is bad, but again, not really hurting anything. It's certainly been entertaining watching the train wreck that is deeproot, so from that standpoint it's provided something to the hobby.
Quoted from ChrisPINk25:Fail, site down for maintenance already.[quoted image]
Can they do anything right?!? 
Quoted from teekee:Cheer up dude... I get you're a hater and will never be able to put your 'hurt feelings' aside for just a second to see the positives... but you should try it some time and maybe life won't suck so bad.
How are you feeling about those re-fakes these days? Pot calling the kettle black here...I don't remember anyone hating on PPS/CGC more than you.
I was just reading the FAQ on the website. Here is one of the items in the FAQ:
"Will there be more RAZA's to buy later on?
We will never make RAZA again. However, we will round up our production lots; meaning there will be a few extra units available after the run. We will sell those for the real price of $8,000 base price for the Arcade Edition, and $13,000 flat fee for the Xtra Edition. Those real prices reflect the market value of the technology and standard components of the machines, and do not reflect the current discounts provided for start up risk and delays in receiving games."
Based on this I assume the "real price" of their future games will be in the 8k range for an Arcade edition. So much for their games being "more for less".
Quoted from benheck:Wait. Are they only making the RAZAs ordered last month or is it just the XTRA version that is limited?
Thought the standard would be an ongoing thing.
Per the FAQ on the Deeproot website:
Will there be more RAZA's to buy later on?
We will never make RAZA again. However, we will round up our production lots; meaning there will be a few extra units available after the run. We will sell those for the real price of $8,000 base price for the Arcade Edition, and $13,000 flat fee for the Xtra Edition. Those real prices reflect the market value of the technology and standard components of the machines, and do not reflect the current discounts provided for start up risk and delays in receiving games.
Quoted from Mr68:Happy mid-March everyone.
"We received some criticism in reply to the last update about putting an expectation of mid-March for first shipments. It was meant as an internal goal and external expectation, not a promise of delivery. We are sorry for not better communicating that."
As a consumer, reading their "RAZA Order, Payment, and Shipment Details" page implies to me that games would begin to reach customers approximately six weeks from ordering.
"Ramp up for RAZA
As of the time of opening orders, nearly all pinball manufacturers are experiencing supply chain disruptions and backlogs of orders primarily due to the order volume and the pandemic. Vendors face similar issues and lead times for metals, plastics, componentry and backlit panels are all unpredictable and much longer than pre-pandemic. Even prior to the pandemic many new pinball releases often took 4-6 weeks for manufacturing to ramp up after opening orders, and took months to fulfill all orders. Our RAZA run will be no different.
We plan to ramp up our lines in a slow, controlled manner using phases with a goal to finish and ship all RAZA orders in less than four months. The first three phases will only be games meeting UL certification for North America/Canada. As CE and other international certifications will still be ongoing, we will not ship international orders until the fourth phase at the earliest.
Phase 1: Approximately six weeks as the first games reach customers, with us alternating between Arcade and Xtra editions (backlit side panels being the primary delays for Xtra editions).
Phase 2: Approximately four weeks, with the goal of increasing games leaving per week to 30.
Phase 3: Approximately four weeks, with the goal of increasing games leaving per week to 40.
Phase 4: The balance of domestic orders and all International orders."
Then, their "Updated FAQ 12.29.20" stated:
"When will my RAZA be delivered?
We will provide updates as production and shipments happen. We expect to be done with RAZA production well before the stated Phases."
It's no wonder why almost nobody trusts this company.
Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:Let’s all save Deep Root! We’ll do it in your honor, with RM’s price tag being that the next theme must be “Short Bus”.
If all 80678 Pinsiders chipped in $20 we could generate $1.6 million and save deeproot!
When is Robert sending out a new update?? LoL
In all seriousness, sucks for everyone who lost money here. Hopefully one of these days the pinball community will learn from the past.
Quoted from jonesjb:I saw there is a SEC document against Deeproot, I guess it's possible that the defendants are found not guilty? If so, is it possible that RAZA's still get made, and we might see them on location later this year?
I certainly hope you just forgot the sarcasm emoji.
Quoted from pinballrockstar:Anybody in the market for a signed JPOP magic girl proto drawing?
No?
I’ll make you a good deal!
No?
Okay…
[quoted image]
I'll chip in $10 if you take and post a video setting fire to it...
Quoted from benheck:Ice thinks I (and others) are obsessed with John.
I really am not. For me it's like I'm camping. And it's time to move on but there was a campfire. I just wanna make sure every last ember is dead and gone before moving on...
...so another forest doesn't get burned down.
Pinside would have understood this analogy better if you had related it to a car 
Quoted from benheck:Yeah! Did a bar crawl yesterday including The Fernwood an ancient hole-in-the-wall with actual holes in the wall and a United "Gold Nugget" Puck bowler all the Minnesota Millenials love to play. Bought a pack of microwave pork rinds for $1.50!
[quoted image]
I've been to some bars with actual holes in the wall...left them with a glorious smile on my face. Hope you had fun!
Quoted from Scandell:We are at the "Eagles flying in ending" of Return of the King. We still have the Pajama Party Ending, the King coronation ending, back to the Shire Ending, Sam's Wedding Ending, Bilbo and Frodo's boat to elf heaven ending...
If you think those extra endings are long, read the book!
Quoted from jonesjb:I was interested in seeing the Yukon Yeti title.
Nordman is with American Pinball now, right? If so, maybe we'll see something similar...
Quoted from Scandell:Hahaha not possible
Why not? Obviously not that exact theme, but he could still do a follow up to Whitewater.
Quoted from BC_Gambit:I don't think 500 machines is considered a home run by any of the major manufacturers. Heck even for a spooky game at this point it would be disappointing.
I would think selling 500 games in a day or two for AP is probably considered a home run...but perhaps I am wrong (also, I may be wrong on them selling out - I see there are ads still up for the LE version). Still, at $8400 a pop, that's 4.2 million in sales in a couple days if they sold all 500.
Maybe the guy who built the Sonic Spinball machine would take $100,000 for his game (or any of the other one off homebrew games). A much better investment...
Quoted from Haymaker:I think it was more Jpop was forced to build them in AP's back room pretty much by himself or get his pants sued off even more
Did AP get anything out of the deal, or was it just a loss for them (I assume the idea was John would design games for them, but they scrapped those designs/relationship, like Houdini)?
You're currently viewing posts by Pinsider brucipher.
Click here to go back to viewing the entire thread.
Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.
Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!
This page was printed from https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/twip-is-deeproot-the-next-misadventure-or-a-pinball-revolution?tu=brucipher and we tried optimising it for printing. Some page elements may have been deliberately hidden.
Scan the QR code on the left to jump to the URL this document was printed from.
