(Topic ID: 203700)

deeproot Pinball thread

By pin2d

3 years ago

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Topic index (key posts)

17 key posts have been marked in this topic, showing the first 10 items.

Display key post list sorted by: Post date | Keypost summary | User name

Post #111 Firsthand information from the Magic Girl programmer. Posted by applejuice (3 years ago)

Post #3026 RAZA promotional video Posted by vireland (1 year ago)

Post #5771 First RAZA gameplay video Posted by ZMeny (1 year ago)

Post #5874 RAZA video with more audible game sounds Posted by zaphX (1 year ago)

Post #5926 First RAZA video with successful ramp completion Posted by zaphX (1 year ago)

Post #5967 Another RAZA gameplay video Posted by flynnibus (1 year ago)

Post #6050 Closeup pictures of key playfield features Posted by Potatoloco (1 year ago)

Post #6133 Video of display animations Posted by LateCenturyMods (1 year ago)

Post #6329 Summary of Robert Mueller's interview Posted by jeffspinballpalace (1 year ago)

Post #6724 RAZA Gameplay video Posted by DS_Nadine (1 year ago)

Topic indices are generated from key posts and maintained by Pinside Editors. For more information, or to become an editor yourself read this post!

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#1238 2 years ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

Either way, I'd be quite surprised if Stern didn't intend to amortise the per unit cost increase due to display content with the presumably significantly reduced DMD -> LCD cost.

Nobody knows what Stern paid for their DMDs. Probably a lot less than we got the AMH ones for. And remember Stern uses the better version of the LCD. So the hardware savings might not as as much as you think.

If you look at Alice Cooper the LCD is like a third what the AMH DMD cost....But! You need a single board computer to drive it, PROC, and an HDMI to LVDS converter board. And on top of that you have to create tons of content from scratch.

So for smaller companies with fewer games to amortize costs across the LCD is most certainly a landmine they've all happily chosen to step on.

#1251 2 years ago
Quoted from 27dnast:

And it’s not as if a DMD/LCD makes a game more accessible to the 99% of all humans that finds pinball endless confusing. The pinball industry should start looking at new ways to make games easy to understand.

That can be done with design. TNA being a great example. Don't even need the LCD.

I think the sweet spot would be a double high display (like Jetsons) with double res dots (like AFMr) This could probably be done with a single MCU.

Remember normies consider pinball retro anyway. Why not have Dots? There's a certain romanticism to it, it's attractive for the same reason hand drawn art is.

#1279 2 years ago

Also why put an LCD on a game when everyone is carrying a smart phone in their pocket?

It's like LaGuardia's new Delta terminal that attaches an iPad to every table for the 0.0% of travelers who don't have a smartphone.

I thought it was weird that Dialed In connected to a smart phone but Pirates had an LCD built into the apron. Why not set your phone on the glass and the Compass appears on it?

#1289 2 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

The LCD effect will eventually be part of the glass
A world on the glass
Think about slot machines today
Deep root probably already has it implemented

Really the end goal should be to remove everything mechanical and simulate the game with a high-quality 3D 4K LCD glass.

Use head tracking to change perspective on the fly.

#1312 2 years ago
Quoted from Brijam:

Please tell me you're joking.

Oh I'm dead serious.

Not that they would, but if a company like MS Valve or Oculus wants to build a head tracked virtual pinball they would make all our tiny industries efforts look like a kid playing with Lincoln logs.

#1317 2 years ago
Quoted from brucipher:

Why go this route versus VR pinball? I am not a big virtual pinball cheerleader, but of anything virtual I've played, Pinball FX2 VR (which I play on my Playstation VR) is the best so far (in my opinion). The tables look great, the effects going on around the table are quirky and fun, and to me it feels the most like real pinball. I have to imagine VR pinball would be way cheaper than head tracked virtual pinball with 3D glass...

Having to put anything on your head is lame. That's why VR never really took off.

Everyone on this forum whines about "getting young people into pinball" so the hobby doesn't die when you all get old and sell your shit to move to Florida.

Well pin prices are going through the roof while LCD prices are dropping through the floor. Maybe the latter is the solution?

No item ever became mass market by increasing the price. Well... Except Apple.

#1334 2 years ago
Quoted from Brijam:

Well, like you said, they woudln’t. If VR goes mainstream, and it’s looking quite doubtful at this point with less than 1% penetration, somebody will do it. And it might be better than existing virtual pinball (might), but it would still suck compared to real pinball.

Kids used to play Cowboys and Indians outside with toy pistols and sticks. Now they all play Call of Duty.

The technology of simulation can create better than real life experiences. It's just hard to imagine with pinball because the technology we use is a f'ing joke compared to the games industry.

#1360 2 years ago

You could have a pair of solenoids inside the virtual pin to give flipper feel. Perhaps a third as a general purpose knocker. Accelerators could feel nudges and also act as a tilt bob.

Then probably some higher resolution haptic feedback motors (near the flipper buttons) to simulate things such as the feel of ball roll or impact.

Pinball isn't skydiving, car racing or sex. It's a person watching a ball roll around under glass while they feel and hear the vibrations of mechanics.

"Better than reality" - you could do visual tricks like Zen Pinball. Things that can't possibly be built. Should keep it to a minimum, what I'd do is have cool mechs that would be too expensive / fragile for a real game, but still feel physically possible.

1 month later
#1510 2 years ago

Be interesting to see if deeproot does use new technologies.

Was at this interesting dinner at a Silicon Valley BBQ with Tanio and Jeri Ellsworth about 8 years ago. Pinball of course came up. One of the other people said "Oh I toured Stern once. They were still using wires. It was cute"

#1518 2 years ago

A big roadblock in the advancement of pinball are the customers.

"I hate surface mount!" they un-ironically type into their phones, which would be the size of IBM typewriters were it not for surface mount.

#1524 2 years ago
Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:

That is a strawman logical fallacy. No one objects specifically to surface mount, they object to being forced to spend $350 for a new board instead of 30 cents for the failed component. If surface mount becomes as easy or cheap to repair as through hole is now customer objection will disappear.

That's Stern using replacement parts as a profit center.

Why can't node boards be repaired?

#1532 2 years ago
Quoted from deeproot:

If only one could get the benefits of SM and the ease and cheapness of TH. Hmmmmm...

The benefits of surface mount are plentiful:

1) Can get actual, modern parts (a lot of through hole is now obsolete or gone)
2) Can be placed by robot
3) Smaller
4) Won't tilt under vibrations and cause a "fix it" kit to be sent out which is basically a zip tie.

Through hole only has 1 plus - it's easy for noobs.

#1568 2 years ago

If you made Blade Runner pinball you'd have to set the playfield to .5 degrees and run the flippers at 12 volts to match the pace of the movie.

#1626 2 years ago

Sparks and smoke... Two things which indicate electrical failure and they want to put them inside an enclosed wooden box?

#1631 2 years ago

I read the US Air Force is really low on new fighter pilots.

So not only is a new Top Gun topical it will serve as great proganda like the first! (which equals free use of military equipment for producers)

#1635 2 years ago

Kurt Russel's beard should get a Lifetime Achievement Award Oscar.

#1651 2 years ago
Quoted from jonesjb:

I’d like a John Carpenter hits pinball machine.

So you'd like a Halloween pinball?


#1687 2 years ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

Deeproot won’t have a game to show

Ah.... don't be so sure of that.

1 month later
#2018 2 years ago

Something one must keep in mind with a transparent LCD is that is can only block light, not create it. You'd have to make the inside cabinet very bright to act as a backlight. You'd also have light losses with the pair of polarization filters.

You'd also have to track or somehow detect the height and position of the player to make sure the FX are drawn in the correct spot for perspective.

Also re: visor - nobody is going to wear that. Sorry. It's the secret reason why VR is dead.

#2043 2 years ago

3D = gimmick to sell more TVs

4k TV = gimmick to sell more TV's (you can't see difference from 1080p unless you sit 3 feet from screen)

4k gaming = gimmick to sell more graphics cards that cost a fortune thanks Bitcoin

VR = cool tech but nobody wants to wear that when gaming.

#2062 2 years ago

VR is soooooo 2013. Seriously folks, it's done. Talking about the wonders of it today is like those people who audibly gasp when the 3D kicks in at the movie theater.

Now I'd agree VR is the best way to make a "virtual" pin. You could just have the first foot or so of a pin, grab onto the flippers and rest is simulated. But we don't really want that, do we?

Nope. People want big bulky collectibles so their basement looks like a bar to remind them of when they were single. It's the secret (not so secret?) reason Heigheway's modular system would never take off.

Remember this is a hobby where people pay a $17,000 premium for different decals on a wooden box.

#2072 2 years ago
Quoted from Bublehead:

benheck, you say VR is dead, but how many are willing to give up hope on a Holo-deck experience so easily? When the two technologies finally converge, the one which currently exists, and the one which is so far advanced it makes VR look like bone knives and bearskins, humans will flock to it, no?

It won't be Holodeck, much more likely The Matrix where you plug yourself into games and it interrupts your brain functions. Basically a video game dream.

But that's many decades away.

1 week later
#2144 2 years ago

I am still upset that I was ever even involved though would like to point out I was paid zero dollars and there was no contract for use of my likeness. So I was taken for a pointless ride like everyone else.

#2153 2 years ago
Quoted from jlm33:

- As soon as JPop announced he would then build 100+ or more RAZA, the Assembled-in-your-garage approach would not work anymore.

Spooky made all 150 AMH's in a pair of units under 2k Sq ft total. Not all that different than a garage.

As I've said a zillion times the difference between early Spooky/Scott and Jpop is Spooky had to SHOW A REAL GAME to get any money. People don't work very hard for money that's already in the bank.

#2190 2 years ago

Why doesn't deeproot just save Alien or TBL?

I ask rhetorically, knowing the likely answer is Robert doesn't like those games or find then pretty enough.

But I think owners should set aside what they personally like (cough cough Charlie) and focus on what the market is asking for.

3 months later
#2595 1 year ago

Keep in mind a transparent LCD glass can only darken things it can't add light. Unless it's OLED but that would be unaffordable at this time.

Also you'd have to use a camera to track the players head and eyes to render the correct perspective.

#2670 1 year ago

This seems very car-like. The linear actuator means the "glass hood" opening will be computer controlled likely with a solenoid lock near the (traditional) lock down bar area.

How does one then open the game without power on? Is there a hole under the cab to disconnect the linkage like unlocking a 4 wheel drive for a tow? Linear actuators have very high gear ratios so moving it by hand would be hard. You'd also need a locked door for that as it would be a pinch point hazard if left open and kids crawled underneath.

This also could lend creedance to a possible "LCD as glass" feature because you'd actually need to sandwich an LCD with more glass to protect it from ball knocks. Making it heavier furthering the need for mechanical assistance. The fact that glass stays attached also points to electrical connections going to again much like the rear hatch of a car.

Seems cool but would be expensive, and this game's weight will be "Hold my beer" to Hobbit and TNG.

2 weeks later
#2894 1 year ago

Since they're in Salt Lake City my guess is Robert hired people laid off when Disney closed Avalanche Software (makers of Disney Infinity the Skylanders clone)

As for ball tracking it could be done with ASICs (application specific integrated circuits) your modern car is loaded with this stuff. And yes, for any other industry they'd say "a $20 camera is cheaper than 20 $3 switches"

The "problems" of Pinball are minor and could be solved by any sufficiently large company in a heartbeat.

#2918 1 year ago

"Modern" pinball machines are laughably primitive compared to most other things.

If a large tech driven company bothered to do anything in the realm of Pinball they would squash every company like an elephant on an ant.

#2922 1 year ago

Jeri Ellsworth could make a ball-tracking ASIC in her sleep.

#2928 1 year ago
Quoted from lpeters82:

If it were modernized they might attract a new audience, but do you think the current audience would follow?

Possibly not, they might get "triggered" by surface mount components and serial... anything.

#2969 1 year ago

I like the part where I start a game after John, spend very little of my own money developing it (maybe 5 grand) and release it for manufacturing before he even gets bailed out the first time by Bill Brandes.

#2990 1 year ago

Come on now.

If TOM or TOTAN had better code they'd be Top 3 pins instead of Top 10 pins.

#3043 1 year ago

There's a simple reason why pinball doesn't have any of this advanced technology.

It's not because it isn't possible. It's because everyone capable of doing it already have six figure jobs at SpaceX, Apple, Tesla, NASA, Lockheed Martin or (insert giant tech corp here).

#3063 1 year ago

I found an image of what your smart phone would look like if it were limited to 35 year old tech like a pinball machine.

bag phone (resized).jpg
#3087 1 year ago

I think the P3 Cannon Lagoon game was awesome. Made great use of the hardware and most importantly you don't have to tell the player what to do.

1 week later
#3283 1 year ago
Quoted from BMore-Pinball:

I also think people spend too much time thinking about fonts and the letter H

I spent 30 hours "thinking about fonts" for ACNC. I made a custom comic font and tested the kerning (spacing) of every letter pair so they wouldn't overlap on screen. I even tested "impossible" pairs like XX. Why? Because I knew the programmer WOULDN'T think about that.

When it comes to ignoring details "you snooze you loose"

#3286 1 year ago

I chimed in because I think fonts ARE important. I thought the Willy Wonka logo looked weird at MGC but Aurich actually figured out why and I agree with his assessment.

Maybe deeproot will pay attention to details better than the other companies we will see.

#3291 1 year ago
Quoted from lpeters82:

It's probably something most don't notice, unless it's "off".

Yes like a doctor reading an xray, a dentist poking your teeth or a contractor looking at your walls.

Just because you don't notice something doesn't mean it's not wrong.

But hey it's art, easy fix.

#3314 1 year ago
Quoted from harryhoudini:

One of the main reasons I don't own a Houdini is due to fonts. Chiller just doesn't work as part of a steam punk-esque, turn of the century game. Neither does bright neon green or purple but that's a different story. The animations and graphics on that game look like a kid in computer graphics class made them. If anyone here should be owning a Houdini I think it should be me and they just killed it for me. Now no one will touch that topic since AP did it so I'm going to have to suck it up and get one someday, ugh.

What does steam punk have to do with Houdini? Answer: nothing. I agree the display on Houdini isn't great but it's a masterclass of cohesive design compared to Oktoberfest.

When you make scores indicators etc look like real world objects it's called skeumorphic design. It was hot in the early iPhone days but beyond obsolete now. It's one of the weak points on the Wonka machine too, makes stuff on screen harder to read.

#3403 1 year ago

When you take your time machine back to 1998 to get cheap CV's don't forget to buy up a bunch of $1 Apple stock

2 weeks later
#3444 1 year ago

Did you know John never had a contract or agreement for use of my likeness? I think he was just trying to flatter me into building him controller boards.

I like the kind of flattery that I can put in the bank.

#3463 1 year ago

"Setting up pins in your home" was John's idea. I was as shocked as everyone else when he mentioned it.

He had NO business sense, the above being a perfect example. You don't fly in Steve Jobs to service your iPhone (extreme example but not far off the mark)

Hopefully deepRoot has him in a "creative director but with a boss" position which is where he could excel one would hope.

2 weeks later
#3767 1 year ago
Quoted from pin2d:

Hello all! So their has been some discussion on the deeproot article after the tour, and your of course open to you’re opinion on it! There up to quite a bit they’re to, definitely peeked my interest. Planning on an article to be released on TWIP in the next couple weaks!

Piqued your interest #grammerWars

#3776 1 year ago
Quoted from pin2d:

Keep looking! Its a lot more grammar problems than just that. I mean, “it’s” a lot more...

Oh damn your right. Its true all I noticed was the common misspelling of "piqued". I could care less about all the other mistakes I cant bare to see.

#3786 1 year ago

Yeah I'm surprised nobody has said anything about the proposed character design posted above. That looks nothing like any RAZA art we've seen pitched before.

1 week later
#3877 1 year ago

RE: ramps my is theory is since John "proved everyone wrong" when the TOTAN curve ramp worked this means any future ramp idea he has also will work, guaranteed!

#3914 1 year ago
Quoted from Fulltilt:

Lemme' see.. what did I get from Jpop?... a big dig up the pinball launch lane...
Why would I not wait for the offer of 2 free games vs a little "cash" reimbursement...?
Seems to me like any real pinball fan would want 2 pins vs a little cash back in the pocket to blow on some other mediocre current offering.

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

10 months later
#8540 8 months ago
Quoted from Ericpinballfan:

Always take the money back when you can, always.

"Sir, I'm going to need to see your law license and proof of malpractice insurance"

2 months later
#9064 5 months ago

Speaking of Musk, pinball machines are indeed laughably primitive. "Innovations" like LCD screens and RGB inserts are like putting a Ring video doorbell on a 200 year old house. Doesn't change the fact it's 99% ancient.

So yeah, radical innovations are possible. But I doubt they're gonna come from a nut job like Jpop or a boss who seems to think art is all that matters.

#9066 5 months ago
Quoted from JodyG:

There you go practicing law without a license again!

My true sin was giving the correct advice

#9070 5 months ago
Quoted from TreyBo69:

The projector on Stranger Things was neat for dynamic artwork. Maybe they’ll refine it for another future game.
I think little one inch OLED screens as inserts would be cool.

Yeah if you see it in person works pretty well. Demogorgan shot is still awful though.

#9075 4 months ago
Quoted from marlboroman:

Where was your "advice" to pinheads when you realized zidware was a fail? you were in the trenches with JPOP, you could have saved people a lot of money and hardship! so don't boohoo it's insulting!.... Mr. Ben Heck the untouchable!

I stopped associating with Zidware once it became clear I was to be an "apprentice" to a has-been instead of making my own game. As many have said John does very good "set dressing" to make things look real and lure people in. Had I stayed associated (Btw I never was paid a single dime) I'd have zilch just like the customers.

Also don't forget it wasn't politically correct to question ANY boutique back then. Like that POS Predator that duped so many.

#9088 4 months ago

"Zidware" was Jeremy Packer.

Stern "saved" it the smart way by hiring him.

Change my mind.

#9098 4 months ago

Here's hoping the launch goes well!

#9104 4 months ago

Hopefully they fixed that RAZA ramp. That was a dead giveaway Jpop is still in the driver's seat.

#9109 4 months ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

So you when you played it what did you not like about the ramp?

Don't need to play it to know what happened.

"Nobody though the ramp in TOTAN would work but it did, which means any ramp I design from now on will work!"

Anyway. Here's hoping those who stayed on get something out of this.

#9164 4 months ago
Quoted from Shapeshifter:

Teaser webpage if it's a hint, surely Fire and Brimstone.
Aren't they doing this title?

Terrible name. Makes you think of it in a negative Southern Baptist way.

Mine was gonna be Cecile b deMille/Michael Bay/God of War action spectacular. No God, no Jesus, just action and based on the Books of Moses for Jewish compatibility.

Curious to see how badly they screw up the concept they "borrowed" from me.

#9180 4 months ago

Yes I would have called it Bible Adventures.

And it would have been much better rules-wise than Viking or Greeks because in western culture people are far more familiar with the Bible OH SNAP!

#9329 4 months ago
Quoted from NeilMcRae:

I want to send Mr Franchi's excellent quote in!
[quoted image]
at least if the game is shit you and your buddies can play shmash-the-playfield
Shipping now!

Millions in art hires and they let John design their hammer logo? He probably spent five hours and three coffee breaks telling the team about Diamond Plate first.

#9392 4 months ago
Quoted from epthegeek:

That "B.d." can't really be "before deeproot" can it? I mean, really?
There's the general "ugh, really?" factor - but then the B is a capital and the d is lower case. Would they really lower-case their own name?

Hubris + religion + yes their name isn't capitalized = entirely possible.

1 week later
#9670 4 months ago

The only 80s movie "as big as Ghostbusters" that hasn't been a pin recently is BTTF.

Beverly Hills Cop actually out grossed GB but didn't stay in the public consciousness at all.

Top Gun also didn't "escape the 80s" very well but there's a new one coming (eventually?) and it would actually make a better pin (rules wise) than BTTF.

#9725 4 months ago
Quoted from T-800:

I think ET would be a huge dud as a pinball. Hope its something else...

ET didn't "escape the 80s" so I'd agree.

Do we know for sure it's a movie? Maybe they're making a Michael Jackson pinball.

#9752 4 months ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

That's what K said, so...
He also said "it's not Gremlins" (wich in my opinion didn't escape the 80's as well) so, I wouldn't trust in his assessment.

Yeah whether or not something "escaped the 80's" is pretty important. Box-office would say make a Rain Man pinball before Big Trouble but we all know it would be a sales dud (as would ET)

Then again, deepRoot seems to run on emotion not logic, so maybe we'll finally get that 3 Men and a Baby pin we've all been waiting for.

#9879 4 months ago

I'm hopeful the people burned by John will be made whole with a delivery of a RAZA game. I think John "sold" around 150 of them.

Curious to see how well RAZA sells beyond that. I'm guessing not much. It's an original theme and a confusing one at that.

#10410 4 months ago
full_jpop (resized).jpg
#10608 4 months ago

The backbox with the wrap around image is VERY cool (art is OK)

But it would look better if the display/speaker area was attached directly to it instead of that second gap. Jpop may be obsessed with retro toasters and art deco but it's beyond obsolete from a design standpoint.

I like the crotch speakers. You could play voice clips there to better help the player.

Game itself doesn't look changed from Houston.

#10618 4 months ago
Quoted from Aurich:

I don't get the stilts on the head, they look dumb. I don't want to see the wall behind my pins through my games. Lose that and it's better imo. Too much different to try and be different. It's the dumb Jpop effect all over again. Spend time on the hinges and not getting the game working.
Different year, different company, same Jpop. Some things will never change.
[quoted image]

Yup bingo. Your drawing is much better... And would be cheaper too.

#10649 4 months ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

Don't you tink that whole backbox thing is an optional "slide in" addon?
If you don't have it, you'd still have the lockbar display and the crotch speakers. - At least that would EXPLAIN the crotch speakers. XD

No, there's no way a company obsessed with "art above all else" would forgo a backbox.

If they have 4 channel sound it would make a LOT of sense to put the callouts and directive speech on the 2 front speakers. It's a very good idea and makes sense since they seem super-obsessed with story as well.

But end of the day it's a JPOP clunker turd. deepRoot put all their eggs in the same basket case.

#10842 4 months ago

Dear rich people:


At what point will you realize this?

Signed, Anyone who's known him.

#10847 4 months ago
Quoted from Reznnate:

You guys are behaving like Deeproot are trying to harm your family, not expand one of your favorite hobbies.
Geeeezus, lighten up....

Nobody has destroyed more wealth in the pinball hobby than JPOP.

It's time for him to be cancelled.

#11323 4 months ago

PinBar is stupid. It's ugly, uncomfortable and shows a very Boomer-esque misunderstanding of why Millenials and zoomers enjoy location pins in the first place - BECAUSE THEY'RE MECHANICAL AND RETRO.

In fact i'd argue pins would become more popular on location the FURTHER from a cell phone they get, not CLOSER.

#11326 4 months ago
Quoted from Napoleon:

Based on that logic, someone should make a new EM game with scoring reels and bells to attract the millennial/hipster crowd.

That's a bit far in the other direction. All that matters is what's under the glass, not outside it.

#11347 4 months ago
Quoted from HighVoltage:

This is also why I wondered about your preaching that pinball should be more like a video game during AC development. I basically had the same response to that. Do you still feel that way? Seems a bit contradictory.

Video gamey as far as game rules. You go through the mansion and can collect items that act as modifiers for the boss battle. You can never collect every item per boss run so the modifier stack is always different.

I mean, I think Rampage would make a great pin. Just whack the ball around and buildings fall over. You don't need to explain anything. It's why Jerry's best game by a country mile is Cannon Lagoon - balls sink ships boom done!

#11394 4 months ago

Here's some real innovations pinball could use:

1) Get rid of wires.
2) Put some drop down wheels at rear of cabinet so it becomes its own cart.
3) Use computer vision to track the ball
4) Expand the Stranger Things projector across the entire PF.
5) Use an RGB laser and galvo to paint FX under the targets.
6) Use computer vision to track players face and change perspective of LCD elements to simulate 3D
7) Spend money on mechs not art
8) Use the internet for something that makes sense, like daily challenges and leader boards.

Slapping on a LCD is not an innovation. Innovations should make the game itself better and easier to build. Hate em all you want but Stern Node boards are a step in that direction.

#11443 4 months ago
Quoted from yancy:

The. Line. Is. Everything. And I haven't seen any evidence that deerpoot has one.

Yup. Isn't that hard to make a game (unless your Jpop) Manufacturing is where the rubber hits the road.

Ask DP about the vast canyon between game and production.

#11579 4 months ago
Quoted from Tomass:

Or work with your hands some and develop tougher hands. People are so afraid of how bad this will hurt and they haven't even tried it. Man up!

The "innovative" PinBar (tm copyright) ignores millions of years of evolution. Human hands are meant to grasp round objects, namely tree branches and the limbs of other animals.

That's why your rake, steering wheel, shifter, gun handle, dildo, pan handle, drinking glass... ARE ROUNDED.

#11590 4 months ago

If I had to guess a big difference is that the PinBar was fabricated while real lockdown bars are stamped. This gives you complex curves and shapes made from the stretching of metal.

Whereas PinBar likely needed a very accurate LCD aperture so they laser cut it with tabs on the sides that were then bent 90 degrees, TIG welded and polished smooth.

A better solution would be to fire some more artists and use your Daddy War-Bucks to get a new stamp made. Then use a bezel interface between it and the LCD to hide errors and deviations.

#11626 4 months ago
Quoted from nwpinball:

They could be trial balloons, throw all their ideas out there to the public, see what generates the most interest, build that game.

That's possible. I'd also agree it feels like a pitch deck.

The suspicious thing is each designer has like what, at least 3 games? How does that work? Again, could be multiple concepts and they wanna see what sticks (BTW they all suck just do Goonies)

#12001 3 months ago

If it took outside influence to point out problems with RAZA then it means no one internally was allowed to critique "Golden Boy" JPOP.

Take a moment to realize how badly he's failed. He's had ten years and millions of dollars and yet he hasn't finished a single game. Why is he given ANY control?

How many zero-budget games have gone from a garage to production during that time? AMH, TNA, R&M, Iron Maiden. And now Elwin is pumping out the hits at a yearly rate.

And here's the thing. Making the game IS THE EASY PART. Coding and manufacturing is where the hell begins. If they haven't even gotten past the easy part, boy are they in trouble.

#12058 3 months ago
Quoted from metallik:

Does DR realize how unsatisfying it's going to be to pound on a touchscreen instead of an obvious, lit-up physical button?

I was just thinking about this as I ran some errands. One of my "lockdown boredom projects" was putting an Android Auto double din touchscreen stereo in my 2006 station wagon. Before I could run my finger across six buttons, feeling them, and change stations. Now I actually have to look at it.

#12100 3 months ago

On paper the Pinbar(tm r c) makes sense for troubleshooting - you've got the PF up, the main screen is blocked, but the PinBar(tm (C++)) can display the tests etc.

The dumb thing about this if it were ANY OTHER PRODUCT IN THE WORLD it would just connect to your smart phone. Printing under the PF? Cool, put some QR codes there. Hold your phone in an area, it sees the code, BOOM you're in the test menu for that section so the screen isn't a mess of irrelevant data. Built in flashlight too!

#12109 3 months ago
Quoted from CLEllison:

Sorry for the rant but as an IT guy this is just embarrassing/irritating that PC's are being implemented and aren't cashing in on the benefits available by doing so.

The thinking isn't "what can we do with a PC in here?" but rather "what's the easiest way to drive HD video for this damn LCD everyone demands? Oh I know throw in a PC!"

Everything you mention could be done with a $5 MCU but massive amounts of horsepower are spent (and mostly wasted) cramming in a PC to run the display.

#12214 3 months ago
Quoted from o-din:

Just to let you guys know I have been paying attention to all these modern innovations, I also figured out where I've seen those speaker grills before.[quoted image]

The cabinet seems designed around the RAZA retro theme. Not sure it would fit other themes as well.

Now custom cabinets per theme... Cool idea even though it'd be a manufacturing / maintenance nightmare.

#12311 3 months ago
Quoted from spinal:

In an alternate universe, there is a DR who just shut it and just quietly focused their passion into making great pinball until it was ready. We would all wish them the best.
But in this universe...

In this universe... They hired JPOP. Despite EVERYONE telling them not to.

#12460 3 months ago
Quoted from rai:

Maybe after food truck pin DR can do other food/truck themed pins.

Maybe after deeproot Jpop can go work at a food truck.

#12498 3 months ago

John's very good at making a "representation" of a game. A shiny box of lights, who cares if the shots don't work look how amazing the art is! Just enough to trick the investors.

Houdini was a perfect example of this. AP didn't realize they'd bought a pig in a poke, but Balcer certainly did. Don't know how many of you saw that thing at Expo 2016 but it was a joke. Looked cool but it wasn't a game.

Think about how many homebrew games we've seen at shows - "made in a garage... With a box of scraps!" John can't even finish one game in 10 years. At what point do people figure this out?

#12505 3 months ago
Quoted from frolic:

JJP blew it with no powerpoint deck. Bunch of amateurs.

I didn't even see a single PinBar(tm). FAIL.

#12590 3 months ago

"Ben Heck's Des Moines Adventureland"

Coming 2036!

PXL_20201007_003542287~2 (resized).jpg
#12670 3 months ago
Quoted from iceman44:

There was a story in the SA Express newspaper about Deeproot when they hired Jpop. The headline read something like "local pinball company hires the Rembrandt of the pinball industry".

I didn't realize Rembrandt hired people to do his art for him then take credit for it!

It cannot be overstated how obsessed Robert is with John. Instead of having him do what he's best at (theme, art direction, feel) they gave him the keys to the castle and put him in the driver's seat of the clown car.

#12698 3 months ago
Quoted from jonesjb:

Do we know when RAZA will be finalized and and available for purchase?

The goal isn't to finish a game it's for John to stay employed until he turns 64.

#12731 3 months ago
Quoted from fishbone:

I'm pretty open about new ideas and innovations in pinball machines. No idea whether the pinbar actually is a good idea, time will tell. The backbox design feels like a breath of fresh air to me, I really like it.

I agree the wrap around backbox is awesome. The split portion... Not so much. Front firing crotch speakers is a great idea even if their design and spacing looks bad.

Still think the Pinbar is dumb, even if they'd stamped a proper lockdown bad around it. It's such an "old man idea" of what would attract whipper-snappers to play.

"Oh they like cell phone screens, let's put that on there!"

The young people who goto barcades like pins BECAUSE they are retro. There's a huge millenial/Gen Z fascination with analog tapes, records, anything pre-digital.

The innovations (aka $$$) should have been put into the mechs. You wanna stand out from Stern, and remind us of the 90s, that's how you do it - not a f'ing LCD. (I'm assuming Jpop is still butt hurt that Williams didn't use his Pinball 2000 concept)

Make a mechanical wonderland under glass, again, retro! Instead we get a static sculpt of a stupid alien with the WCS target below it.

Also reading the Bowden stuff and the lame ass, WAY overwritten RAZA back story makes me think this game is gonna come to a dead stop and make you use that PinBar far too often. Goto the shop, choose a path. Since all John really wanted to do was make a carnival themed pin he probably put Alien Whack A Mole on that screen too.

All they seem to have innovated was the cabinet. This does nothing for game play or costs.

#12739 3 months ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

The Ned toy is sitting on a coil, so it moves, as well as having a lightshow animating his guns.

That's hella weak for 2 years of a 750k monthly burn.

My guess is John-Robert formed an impenetrable feedback loop of crazy and nobody else was allowed to criticize "the Rembrandt of Pinball"

Thus we get an emperor who doesn't realize he's naked until an outside party (the city/journalists) tell him so.

#12748 3 months ago
Quoted from Richthofen:

Ben Heck’s game, AMH, was out for a limited run and did get built. All the shots were makeable and for first commercial game it was pretty good. Between AMH and the Bill Paxton pinball, Ben Heck has produced more complete commercial pinball machines than JPOP since the year 2000.

I also worked on Rob Zombie (script, storyboarding, code overhauls) Alice Cooper (core "mansion travel" rule set, some scripting, storyboards) and have been helping a lot with their next game as well (prototyping, mechanical engineering)

#12750 3 months ago

I've often said the secret behind Spooky's success is the fact we had to make games to make money, instead of getting the money ahead of time.

You don't work very hard when the money's already in the bank, especially if you're a lazy hack has-been who gets all their ideas from EMs.

#12752 3 months ago
Quoted from stevevt:

Now you're operating an overpowered tanning bed without a license.

Haha, and now we know why Robert was so triggered by my advice.


#12760 3 months ago
Quoted from iceman44:

How do you really feel about Jpop Ben? LOL
DR had loads of cash upfront as well. Burning cash with no output is not a sound business model?

Hey I used to think he was cool. Still remember first time I played Theater of Magic.

But you're only as good as your last gig and the last 10 years have been a joke. All these companies are like women becoming a guy's 3rd, 4th or 5th wife and thinking "I'll be the one to change him!

#12768 3 months ago
Quoted from RCA1:

What are the current odds that Derproot eventually sells games?
I'm starting to think it's less than 50:50. Maybe 60:40 against.
Seems like we may just see an announcement that "adverse conditions and factors beyond our control dictate abandoning the pinball market".

Zilcho. They can't even finish the easy part (a prototype) and there's no manufacturing to be seen.

Oh well. At least a lot of old pinball designers got nice paychecks for a few years.

#12832 3 months ago

Speaking of Zelda, Robert should have used all that money to get some "unobtanium" licenses like Harry Potter, Anything 2D Disney or Nintendo.

Get Lion King, Zelda, Mario, Harry Potter, let an experienced designer like Nordman design it and they'd have a line of customers beating a path to their door. (or put all hands on deck for Goonies)

Instead they put yet another art package on a turd that's been swirling around the bowl for the last 8 years.

#12879 3 months ago

"Tap the PinBar(tm) to spend your DeepBucks(tm) on this Magical Rubber Duck(tm) in the Retro Atomic Doesn't Contain Any Zombies John Just Wanted to Make a Carnival Game Because He's Obsessed With Python Angelo Who Ironically Hates His Guts Adventureland!"

#12935 3 months ago

I pitched this to Spooky for TV license games. You'd sell DLC for modes based on seasons that aired after pin was released.

The gimmick was it'd be tied to toys. Some blank spots on PF with a connector, you buy the Toy + DLC for like $300 and plug it in. Toy has a crypto unlock for the content because guess what you've already downloaded it haha! Basically a toy as software dongle.

Charlie HATED the idea. But this is pinball. Logic doesn't apply. Stern could charge $1k for this gimmick with Walking Dead: The Complete Saga and people would break their wrists whipping out the wallet.

#12989 86 days ago

And the people bowed and prayed
To the fake neon charade
But Ben flashed out his warning
With his words on Pinside each morning
And his post said "A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush, Bob's button was pushed"
And whispered in the sounds... of deeproot

#13012 85 days ago

I just wanna fast-forward to the part where all the NDAs expire and we can get the "Fyre Festival / Theranos" documentary of WTF happened.

#13048 82 days ago
Quoted from spinal:

As The Player begins to take a step outside of the Atomic Shop, everything slowly starts to move again, including the park patrons attempting to run away, the zombies, and the invaders! Quickly, The Player steps back inside where they were before, and instantly, everything else stops moving again.

So the game comes to a screeching halt whenever they want you to use the PinBar. As I expected.

Also that dialog is terrible. Seriously it's like a 3rd grader wrote it.

#13051 82 days ago
Quoted from TreyBo69:

Reads like a vertical slice from a pitch deck explaning the PinBar™
It's some sample gameplay, narration/dialogue, and explaining how the PinBar™ could be used to combine story telling and game play.
It's very video gamey

It's awful. Here's how you do a shop:


#13057 82 days ago
Quoted from Roostking:

Its warranted. All shade, all day.

"Our insults will blot out the sun!"

"Then we will noodle in the shade"

#13088 79 days ago

When you lay down with dogs you rise up with fleas
Why hire John Popaduik he's such a disease
Though to his credit he's done something right
Taking millions off rich men with boxes of light
I can't wait for deeproot to leave

#13097 77 days ago

Die Deep Roots! DIE!

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#13102 77 days ago
Quoted from Fulltilt:

Damn... I know you got burned too but that's pretty wicked.

What? I really was digging up roots today. Damn thing had to go.

#13110 76 days ago
Quoted from LOTR_breath:

You better um, "knot" mention that again.

Leaf me alone!

#13114 75 days ago

Thunder and Wamoc are right. "Ponzi scheme" is a specific type of scam, you can't just apply that label to everything.

I'd go with "Pig in a Poke". It dates back to medieval times, the scammer would say "inside this bag (poke) is a delicious young pig!" The victim buys it to discover it's a worthless stray cat ("cat is out of the bag" = scam exposed)

"This game is REAL!" says John to AP, as he pulls the curtain off his Houdini diorama. They ooo and ahhh, it's so pretty it must be real!

Joe Balcer rolls up "Ehhh, guys, I hate to tell you this, but, yeah that game's just a stray cat!"

(wash rinse repeat with RAZA and DR)

#13143 72 days ago

Oh and BTW, this kind of answers the question of "why doesn't company X spend whatever it takes to hire Sheets, Gomez, etc?"... because those people will want to work someplace where the game will actually GET RELEASED.

#13147 72 days ago

Bill spent 100k, AP spent millions, DR spent tens of millions... Where does JPOP fail up to next?

"You gotta see these games man" said Mike Quigley, Congressman for the 5th district of Illinois "They're like, so beautiful and stuff. That why I'm introducing the $1 billion dollar Let's Invest Money Pinball Does Interesting Commerce Credit bill. John Popaduik is the Obama of pinball and he promises a 20 trillion dollar return on investment."

#13149 72 days ago

No, Bill wrote the Necessary Outpouring Of Dollars Leading Into New Games act. Sadly it was blocked in the Senate.

#13165 67 days ago

Remember for me it's personal. John said I was "making a mistake" by helping Spooky instead of him.


#13178 66 days ago

I think I see where you're coming from Rockstar. Glad to be an inspiration to you and others.

My frustration stems from being a hobbyist who turned a machine to production. I was able to do it, many can't, not because they lack the skills (most home-brews are way more impressive than AMH was) but for lack of opportunity.

John destroys opportunity. He destroys wealth. How many Keith Elwins or Scott Danesis could we have discovered with the time and money that was wasted on Zidware, by Bill, by AP, and now deeproot?

What Bill spent trying to save MG alone was 3x what Charlie used to fund Spooky. AP could have saved a great game like TBL instead of Magic Turd.

Python Angelo, who art in heaven, banging Ayn Rand, hallowed be thy name. Thy will of continuing your mission of warning people about Jpop shall be done.

#13184 65 days ago
office (resized).jpg
#13186 65 days ago

In the year twenty twenty
John has scammed plenty of money
Deeproot has helped him to
Build a game that plays like poo

In the year thirty thousand ten
Old Jpop is at it again
Got some aliens to pony up cash
For a game that still plays like ass

In the year ten million and eight
The RAZA game is still very late
All the buyers have since turned to dust
Never fulfilling their purple lust

In the year ten billion one
Earth has been absorbed by the sun
John took a rocket deep into space
To quote "finish RAZA at his own pace"

In the year octillion nintety-nine
John has finally gotten the hinges just fine
Nobody knows which will come first
RAZA or the heat death of the universe

Whoah oh oooooh....

#13215 64 days ago

Interesting to see what the feedback is.

Also can't drink inside a brewery what kind of madness is that?

#13250 63 days ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

Bars are open in Texas. No one is being forced to go to this.

The real risk is getting infected by John's reality distortion field. It causes normally sane people to think a bunch of artwork and blinking lights is a fully functional pinball machine.

#13330 63 days ago


1) Voice work is good, typography and graphics on screen(s) are well done
2) Pinbar looks less painful
3) Great light show
4) Wraparound backbox design is awesome


1) Stolen Ferris Wheel from Cyclone, in same location on PF even.
2) Lots of brick shots, ball rattle, bad returns and nothing for the ball to interact with.
3) Animations are very rudimentary, basic "puppet pivot" After Effects stuff - what did the "Disney Quality" Avalanche Studios guys do exactly?
4) No zombies (because John just used zombies as a trojan horse so you'd fund his Python Angelo tribute carnival themed game)
5) No obvious modes shown for a game that is apparently "shipping soon!"

All in all, a pinball game is what's ON THE PLAYFIELD. I don't see much on this PF. It's very telling that 99% of the DR fluff has been about everything BUT the game itself.

Best of luck, but it ain't gonna sell much.

#13343 63 days ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

It has a ferris wheel, a roto target, a side moving „goalie“ target, that ned mold above it with animated guns and shaking, that two way tower ramp, two magnets, that spinning floating disc toy, multiple molds...
You cant see it all due to the overhead perspective.

It's a Cyclone ferris wheel, the WCS goalie and the TOTAN spinner.

John recycles so much he'd make Al Gore blush.

#13422 62 days ago

It's possible DR is just slapping this together enough to fulfill their Goodwill Agreement, like AP did with Magic Girl.

The modes seem very bare bones and most telling to me the animation isn't nearly what it should be considering their hires.

The theme sucks. Its only appeal is as a Jpop game which has a negative connotation to the niche group that's aware of it (us)

Why they didn't complete AIW instead is beyond me. I mean they were both foam core pipe dreams when DR bought out Zidware debt to obtain their patents. Why not complete the pipe dream that is more marketable and better fits John's style?

#13446 62 days ago
Quoted from Roostking:

This is exactly my thoughts, try to sell as many as they can, but the main reason is to fulfill the goodwill members. Then we wait for FoodTruck!!!

Food Truck will be the "Dark Souls" of Pinball machines!

#13550 61 days ago
Quoted from adol75:

That poor game has no flow at all. There's a ball going up and down bouncing against whatever it finds on the way.

Shh! You're not supposed to notice that. Look how awesome the cabinet and backglass look!

Here's hoping future DR games made by real designers can wow us in the with this sweet cabinet AND good gameplay which is all that matters in pinball.

RE: DLC and "Pinball as service" well that's probably how he sold this to investors. Software as service/services is how MS and Apple broke the trillion $ market cap barrier. It's the future way corporations plan to bleed us dry.

Let's face it Pinheads did this to themselves by proving there's nothing too stupid they won't buy. $5k couch pieces, $800 flat plastic toppers, rugs...

#13575 61 days ago

As someone who has been using Adobe for 24 years I can attest to the shift. Used to be you'd buy the package once, then upgrade every 3-4 years for $600. Now you pay $600 every year. And the software changes a lot less than your average video game DLC.

I think DLC could work as I've said many times before. Add the 3rd movie to Star Trek, add more seasons to GOT, R&m, TWD. Licensing that extra content certainly isn't free but if there was financial incentive the pin companies might do it.

Maybe the DR plan covers all games you own. If that means DLC support for say 3 titles then it becomes a better deal. But does the content relock if you cancel? That's what Xbox Game Pass does.

Another question is does the content become BS filler? This is what happens to every "live service" video game that isn't popular. A hit like COD Warzone keeps getting new stuff but a flop like BFV gets dumb challenges like "try and get 10 headshots between now and Friday"

#13626 61 days ago

Hey anyone else notice how few inserts are on this game? It's just arrows pointing at stuff like Ducks, Coaster, Monkey and whatever a Doozie is. Where is the mode progression tracked? The PinBar?

Also where are the zombies? Oh right. John just wanted to remake Cyclone because he's obsessed with Python Angelo. (there's a Dracula on the topper FFS)

#13632 61 days ago
Quoted from wrb1977:

...and you Ben are obsessed with JPop.

It's more of a hobby really.

#13642 61 days ago
Quoted from wrb1977:

I tried to get Ben to move on and answer some legitimate questions I had for him regarding the Pinbar. He never answered and decided to continue his attacks on JPop. His choice...I will not comment on his personal vendetta again.

The PinBar is a cool concept. But it's just another screen. It displays info and takes input, neither of those are an innovation. I like how it helps add players. But I'm worried with how much DR talks about narrative and how that might cause the game to stop constantly and request input on it. It's also why the lack of inserts on RAZA is concerning, means the game progression has to show up someplace other than the PF. Guarantee that's a headache for Bowden and whoever is coding it.

IMO the Stranger Things projection mapping is a much cooler innovation. (albeit an ancient concept) Granted the game isn't the best and the projector could be brighter (though it looks better in person) it's still a cool way to add diversity to an otherwise fairly static PF. It's like Pinball 2000 but doesn't add 200 lbs.

And it bears repeating that Millenials and Gen Z (the people actually plunking down location money) like pinball BECAUSE it is retro. I don't think boomer designers get this. They're in a mindset of "what do the kids like I know phones!" and we get Dialed In and The PinBar.

Young people are obsessed with VHS, tape decks, the 80s, vinyl records in the same way Boomers were obsessed with cowboys and colt pistols. The innovation shouldn't be a dumb LCD but how we can use today's amazing sensors and robotics to make the real physical PF come alive in a way that's more exciting and tangible than games on your phone.

DR has talked about everything BUT the game with RAZA. Hopefully their other stuff will be better. But this is a dud. There's no magic just a bunch of color and lights.

#13680 60 days ago

I still think Bible Adventures would be awesome.

My secular version I mean. DR will blow it.

#13696 60 days ago

I'd agree a one time code update (perhaps tied with a small toy that plugs into PF like a software dongle key) is the best bet for acceptance.

But what's the return? Attach rates are fairly low in general, even if you double them because pinball is nuts you might get 20%.

So take your average hit Stern of 5k units 20% attachment that's 1000 DLC sold at say $500 gives you 500k. Divide by 3 because profit leaves a 166k budget.

Say 66k for licensing leaves 100k, let's say that's your average salary so you have a team of 3 spend 4 months on it.

Seems doable but no DR game is gonna sell anywhere near your average hit Stern. So..... We get the subscription model.

Also the dirty little secret since the dawn of time is you NEVER own software you are merely granted the license to use it. So yes, if you sold a DR machine secondhand the content would be locked to new user unless they subscribed.

#13730 59 days ago

The thing that's really gonna kill deeproot is lack of licensed titles. Goonies alone isn't going to carry the weight of 5 other games nobody wants.

They're clearly obsessed with the long-gone era of 90s B/W (again because John is the secret boss) but forget crucial things like how it was the early 90s licensed themes that sold huge while the original themes later on did far less business.

They're looking at it through the lense of history "after 20 years it was TOM, TOTAN, CV, MM, AFM, MB everyone loved best" but they're a company in the PRESENT. They can't wait 20 years for Food Truck to become a cult classic they need something they can sell NOW.

#13784 57 days ago

Yeah Jeff that seems like a better direction.

For comparison:

Xbox Game Pass. $10 / month and you can play any of like 200 games at any time. But if a game rotates off the service you lose access. (which sounds like the case if you resell a DR game)

Xbox Live allows you to play online, $8/month

Xbox Live Gold, $10/month and you get free games each month you keep forever.

Xbox Ultimate, all of the above, $15/month.

Again the only software subs even approaching $50/month is professional stuff like Adobe, Autocad, Fusion, Eagle, etc.

#13800 56 days ago
Quoted from cpr9999:

Welcome to the future...NOW.... “internet of things”.....
If they can do it for right cost...it is going on the net.......you will be tracked by usage of those devices.... just install the chip in me.....NOoooooo

Truth is these wifi chips and micros cost bugger all so why not throw them in everything?

Has there been any talk about internet error reporting? You know the thing that would be most important to operators?

#13813 55 days ago

DLC subs or no, their launch game is still just John's self-indulgent remake of Cyclone (with zombies added because it was 2012) with a bunch of lights and garish technicolor vomit so you don't notice the lack of flow, toys, cohesion, inserts and rules.

And for all the talk of innovation I've heard this still uses the PROC system ripoff John commissioned years ago.

#13842 52 days ago

Heighway and DP's mistake was trying to actually build games. Instead of trying to grift their way to retirement age.

Everyone knows the best way to lure investors is by making a fake diorama of a game that looks like Rainbow Bright vomited up Fruit Loops onto the glow-in-the-dark carpet of a bowling alley floor.

#13847 51 days ago

Here's a Software as Service gold nugget.

Office 365! Pay to keep up with the latest version, even though Word is still using the same linking dialog box from 1997:

PXL_20201203_173809334 (resized).jpg
#13854 50 days ago

"They haven't taken any money"

Except from their investors of course. Guess they don't count as people?

What happens if this goes tits up and ruins pinball as an investment in general? Stern was out of business back in 2009 until some angels saved them. Jack's been saved many times. What if Spooky needs help next (real) recession?

This is why I rag on JPOP. Not just because he's a hack, but because the more he "fails up" the more damage he does to the hobby.

#13939 47 days ago
zombies (resized).jpg
#13977 46 days ago

Such innovation!

1) WCS soccer target
2) Cyclone wheel that takes ball nowhere.
3) Spinning duck target no doubt stolen from some old EM
4) Static sculpt of NED! He shakes a little and has LED guns. (BTW Robert saying "LED light" is redundant)
5) Awesome static motorcycle and jet toys.
6) Hardly any inserts. So Bowen is forced to make everything about tickets and the game comes to a screeching halt (as I predicted) to make you use the PinBar.
7) No zombies anywhere because all John wanted to do was remake Cyclone but it was 2011 so he added zombies since they were all the rage at the time.

#14091 46 days ago
Quoted from kermit24:

On the website it appears that they won’t be taking any orders after the end of December.[quoted image]


They forgot the option for the PinPod(tm) to be spray-painted purple. +$300

#14136 45 days ago
Quoted from toyotaboy:

so what happens if deeproot doesnt get the minimum orders they were hoping for? do they just never invest in manufacturing because the ROI isnt there? do they move onto the next title? do they close shop?

I think they can sell 300+. But for this much investment you need to be in the thousands.

THEME IS EVERYTHING. If they had showed BTTF in this futuristic cabinet with Delorean like brushed metal people would be vomiting money at them right now. But no. We get (as someone earlier said) John's fever dream tribute to Python Angelo.

If you look at the Zidware bankruptcy filings DR is their largest creditor at nearly half a million. Doesn't take a forensic analyst to see DR bought their debt obligations (game vouchers) in order to become the largest (and only secured) creditor so after bankruptcy DR gets everything.

So that's at minimum half a million spent for a bunch of purple vomit. That's more than Stern's upfront cost to get Star Wars!

#14140 45 days ago
Quoted from frolic:

Maybe how like an abused child is always seeking their parent's love (even after death)?

I think that's the case. It explains a lot, like someone might wonder "why is Dracula on the topper for this sci-fi zombies game?" but then of course there was a Dracula in Cyclone.

John, Python is too busy banging Ayn Rand in heaven to give a damn about your tributes.

#14265 44 days ago

Daily reminder that what Dr spent "saving" the Zidware light boxes could have easily paid for the upfronts of 4-5 good licenses.

What a waste for a purple vomit remake of Cyclone that shoots like a wet turd in a clothes dryer.

#14342 43 days ago

Here's what I believe to be the deal with manufacturing:

In the interview, if you listen between the lines, they know RAZA is a dog. All they talk about is the system around it, what the next games are, and mostly the PinBar. Mentions how much work it was to get RAZA going (because John sold them a light diorama) and as for how many they will sell? 100? Maybe 200? Robert says. He doesn't know (who does?) but knows it won't be a lot. (This is the same guy who back in early 2015, without playing it, thought Magic Girl could sell 2800 units on looks alone. Note how often he says "beauty" in these videos)

Look, I'm sure RAZA is shootable. But it's pretty weak considering NINE YEARS of dev and the money deepRoot spent and their level of their ambition.

The 3 week sales window is so they know how much they have to hire up/ramp up for manufacturing starting in January.

Then the question becomes how close is their next game? A line is a beast that must be fed, so are they going to scale out the hiring to keep making RAZA until Food Truck is ready? When that bombs how close is Goonies to being ready?

#14352 43 days ago
Quoted from kermit24:

At least get a license from PPS and call it Diner 2 instead of Food Truck. I don’t think that will save it however. Fire and Brimstone is a TERRIBLE idea. Sorry benheck

Fire and Brimstone is a terrible name. Makes you think of super right wing Southern baptists and all the most negative aspects of religion.

I was gonna do a Cecile b Demille/Michael Bay/God of War like Bible game. But then I made the mistake of mentioning the idea to Robert and here we are...

#14365 43 days ago

Oh but it's so much fun to speculate. In addition I was there for some of it so it's interesting to see if the puzzle pieces fit in the ways I expected.

There's a bit of "original sin" as well, since my name was originally attached (again John's idea not mine)

#14409 42 days ago
Quoted from Tomass:

I don't know how this plays out but all the haters just represent the worst of pinside and our society in general.

I ran away from John's purple shit show and helped found Spooky, which has shipped thousands of ACTUAL GAMES, employs 30 people and generates millions for vendors.

I'm soooooo awful.

#14421 42 days ago
Quoted from NoQuarters:

Hit the pinbar and the establishment your in brings your beer and food order out to you at the pinball game. Saves you 20 steps going up to the bar to order.

Now that's an idea I can get behind! It'd be like all those iPads in the Laguardia Delta terminal.

#14448 42 days ago

Yeah the idea was a lower PF with a static flipper and a circular "lazy Susan" portion above it. The Susan would rotate and reveal different "room scenes", I wanna say 3 total? They'd have different targets, return paths etc. The final room had a reactor you'd bash to blow something up. Sounds elaborate but hey it was a 10k game why not?

We also had a Skee Ball skill shot (so obvious, and so TOTAN, shocked that didn't stay in) and a "acid dunk tank" No wait. It was zombie juice. You put people in it to make zombies (hero's GF would be dangled above it for instance)

Right. Anyway. You make the shot and the ball is captured. Then there's a gag to show a ball dropping through the tank. Then the ball becomes infected and a green ball pops out (think Powerball) I think we got hung up on how to detect and reload the ball, but it was a cool concept.

But yeah. I left to help Spooky and John began turning it into Cyclone Atomic Purple Edition. I mean look at that drawing above it has a Dracula Spook House for crying out loud, he didn't even change the name!

Also does anyone else appreciate the irony of a lawyer going gaga for the art on a game that's at least 3 lawsuits waiting to happen? (Toho, MGM, Topps)

#14450 42 days ago

Sketched this while smoking a cigar in my garage. Not to scale but you'll get the drift.

Basic idea was to advance through 3 stages of the lower Pf. A couple generic rooms then the reactor bash. Would rotate 120 degrees to reveal each room. You'd want a super weak coil on the flipper, and need to make sure the ball doesn't get stuck in hidden rooms, but should have been doable.

But now there's a static jet toy you can add to a ramp for $120. Such innovation.

PXL_20201212_213753458 (resized).jpg
#14473 41 days ago
Quoted from Makakka:

Thats not the magic I was talking about that was zidware stuff I clearly seperated in my comment. You love mixing that together to keep the hate going. But now there is a RAZA owner owner thread that is vacuum cleaned from any hate and ready for RAZA and Jpop fans only.

"You have been exposed to JPOP's radiation. Will you return?"

#14591 38 days ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

You can be confident that DR isn't re-inventing electronics assembly.

That was evident to me in the video where Robert lifts the PF. WAY too many wires to be true innovation.

Like it or not Stern Node Boards is innovation. But even then, this industry is laughably primitive compared to, well, anything else.

#14663 37 days ago


#14670 37 days ago
Quoted from spfxted:

I want to hear from the Goodwill People. What's the new deal?

They are having a sale on worn out jeans and bread makers nobody has used since the 90s.

#14705 36 days ago
Quoted from kermit24:

What about the smartphone app? It says it allows you to administer the machine. I bet it can connect directly to the machine over WiFi.

Could also do it over Bluetooth. Hold the phone under the PF as you click switches. It's the obvious, easiest answer but then you don't get to patent, promote and fellate the AMAZING PINBAR!

#14714 36 days ago
Quoted from fastpinball:

Oh no. If that is true, they need to sort that out. Not everyone has a convenient garage or other space to safely unbox a game in. Sure, you could unbox outdoors, but what do you do when it is raining?
PinTent? PinBrella?
FAST Pinball

Just get a mansion with bigger doors. Duh!

#14785 34 days ago
Quoted from NevadaNutJob:

I’m totally lost on all the love for Goonies as a game . It may or may not be fun to play but definitely not a theme I would consider buying .

It's better than Food Truck. Mostly unlicensed themes is the greatest danger facing the roots of deepness.

#14797 34 days ago
Quoted from hank527:

How dare you. Food truck is phenomenal. The pinball world has much rejoicing to do based on the creativity of this awesome game. Do they sell 5 or 10?

Other pinball companies might sell you the wish fulfillment of being a rock star, a superhero or a ghost-busting time-traveler. FOOD TRUCK lets you live the dream of spending all day inside a hot, cramped mobile kitchen making minimum wage while hoping ICE doesn't show up.

#14806 33 days ago

Is it bashing or constructive criticism? There's a LOT of money riding on deeproot and making 2 original themes in a row is incredibly risky.

I haven't had positive experiences with either of the two main players and they both stole my Old Testament Bible idea. Which they're free to do but they got it from me, not their own brains.

Oh and the owner apparently will sue employees for simply publicly saying they've quit. Ever consider these contracts you sign to buy a game are the tip of the litigious iceberg?

#14813 33 days ago

Well we will see if they ship. It's troubling they won't show a production line, but it's also likely they aren't spooling it up until they know the volume of RAZA orders to fulfill.

In the last interview Robert says outright they don't know how many RAZA they will sell, which is kind of nuts considering the debt and complications they spent acquiring it.

Hey if some buyers finally get a game thanks to rich investors that's great. But much like how Uber is cheap because investors subsidize your ride it's not a good long term strategy.

#14819 33 days ago
Quoted from mbwalker:

I mentioned before, given the low numbers they were shooting for (i.e. limited run), I'm thinking these will likely be built in the lab by the engineers. Boutique build. Can they pull it off? Yeah, probably at low quantities if they have the parts. Hundreds? No, that would require a production run w/a real manufacturing floor/processes.

Eh I bet they sell 100-200. Which is far more than "hand the employees a screwdriver" can handle. Guess we will see.

#14828 33 days ago

I'll give Andrew this - he at least shipped a few hundred games and "made a go of it" - look how fast his hair turned white. That's not from lack of effort. I'm curious to see how much Pinball Bros have simplified his electronics.

RE: production. Say they sell 300. A small group of people could build them but it would take YEARS (that's how Spooky started, or see DP now, good for them BTW)

So assuming they get 200-300 orders and want them all done in spring (haha right) they're going to need a line. Questions them become:

1) How long to train and spool up the line?
2) Did they order the max # of parts (300) ahead of time? What's the vendor delay if they're waiting for final numbers?
3) Do they have another game ready when RAZA is done to keep the line moving? Or do they have to fire, hire and re-train, slowing down the process for Game #2?

#14846 33 days ago
Quoted from iceman44:

I'm curious, how did Spooky start? They built 150 AMH somehow. And now they do 750 a year with 30 employees?

They had a couple 900 sq ft units and built AMH basically one at a time with a few employees. Of course this was over the span of nearly 2 years. It didn't really resemble a "line" until they did RZ in their second building.

So yeah the main issue is if they do intend to build all 300 RAZA this spring do they have another game ready to feed that line? And will it sell enough to sustain it? Or is the intention to take it slow until they get to one with good sales potential like Goonies? As-is seems like they'll be doing Spooky numbers at best but with literally 1000x the budget.

#14935 30 days ago

RAZA looks good and the cabinet has some very cool stuff. They'll probably sell all 300. I think some of my fellow haters are upset it didn't outright belly flop.

Thing is 300 is kind of a joke considering the investment thus far. Again maybe they are keeping it low to ramp up production. But it's also pretty weak considering when they spent to get Jpop - what if JJP spent half a million to get Ritchie and he made a game that only sold 300 units? BTW nobody in the biz gets anymore near 500k a game in royalties.

#14943 30 days ago
Quoted from greenhornet:

instead JJP spent whatever to get pat lawlor and he made dialed in.

A great game that sold over 1500 units? The horror!

#14986 25 days ago

Ya'll do realize that quad & octo manufacturing were never really a thing right? Just more "bullshit JPOP words" to slap on a flyer like "Quickstep solenoids"

Hopefully for the buyers they have something real setup.

#15012 25 days ago
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:

I'm confused. Isn't this the exact reason everyone is making so much fun of it?

Oh, that's good then. Just hoping people didn't think it was some real, yet unknown magical secret.

#15107 23 days ago

Gone or not gone (guessing gone) what did the Utah crew do exactly? The animation seen on RAZA is (for the most part) extremely basic and could be accomplished by one person using Adobe After Effects.

Did they animate for the most anticipated pin of all time FOOD TRUCK?

Also the engineering staff numbers are impressive but where did they all go? Was all prep work done for all 10 games and now they're fired? Is he running this like a video game company?

#15113 23 days ago

Why do people have to explain / apologize for not liking something?

Hell half my friends are obsessed with hating an orange buffoon they've never met, surely people can have an opinion about a company/people they actually have experience with?

#15121 23 days ago

It's an industry fraught with failed startups.

You've got a hack who tricks people with commissioned art and a rich dude who only cares about art who's obsessed with said hack.

If that doesn't set off red flags have your optometrist check you for color blindness.

Are we driving back into pre-SKITB times where no criticism was allowed until after millions had been lost?

#15129 23 days ago

I'm not trying to discredit (the vast majority) of deeproot employees. Obviously they are all pros, and I really miss my Space Shuttle (was too lazy to move it).

There's just a lot of red flags that people shouldn't ignore. You can't just throw cash in an empty room to make production appear, it takes talent and time.