(Topic ID: 203700)

deeproot Pinball thread

By pin2d

1 year ago

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  • 3,803 posts
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  • Latest reply 2 hours ago by greenhornet
  • Topic is favorited by 149 Pinsiders


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Post #111 Key posted, but no summary given Posted by applejuice (1 year ago)

Post #3026 RAZA promotional video Posted by vireland (56 days ago)

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#1238 10 months ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

Either way, I'd be quite surprised if Stern didn't intend to amortise the per unit cost increase due to display content with the presumably significantly reduced DMD -> LCD cost.

Nobody knows what Stern paid for their DMDs. Probably a lot less than we got the AMH ones for. And remember Stern uses the better version of the LCD. So the hardware savings might not as as much as you think.

If you look at Alice Cooper the LCD is like a third what the AMH DMD cost....But! You need a single board computer to drive it, PROC, and an HDMI to LVDS converter board. And on top of that you have to create tons of content from scratch.

So for smaller companies with fewer games to amortize costs across the LCD is most certainly a landmine they've all happily chosen to step on.

#1251 10 months ago
Quoted from 27dnast:

And it’s not as if a DMD/LCD makes a game more accessible to the 99% of all humans that finds pinball endless confusing. The pinball industry should start looking at new ways to make games easy to understand.

That can be done with design. TNA being a great example. Don't even need the LCD.

I think the sweet spot would be a double high display (like Jetsons) with double res dots (like AFMr) This could probably be done with a single MCU.

Remember normies consider pinball retro anyway. Why not have Dots? There's a certain romanticism to it, it's attractive for the same reason hand drawn art is.

#1279 10 months ago

Also why put an LCD on a game when everyone is carrying a smart phone in their pocket?

It's like LaGuardia's new Delta terminal that attaches an iPad to every table for the 0.0% of travelers who don't have a smartphone.

I thought it was weird that Dialed In connected to a smart phone but Pirates had an LCD built into the apron. Why not set your phone on the glass and the Compass appears on it?

#1289 10 months ago
Quoted from iceman44:

The LCD effect will eventually be part of the glass
A world on the glass
Think about slot machines today
Deep root probably already has it implemented

Really the end goal should be to remove everything mechanical and simulate the game with a high-quality 3D 4K LCD glass.

Use head tracking to change perspective on the fly.

#1312 10 months ago
Quoted from Brijam:

Please tell me you're joking.

Oh I'm dead serious.

Not that they would, but if a company like MS Valve or Oculus wants to build a head tracked virtual pinball they would make all our tiny industries efforts look like a kid playing with Lincoln logs.

#1317 10 months ago
Quoted from brucipher:

Why go this route versus VR pinball? I am not a big virtual pinball cheerleader, but of anything virtual I've played, Pinball FX2 VR (which I play on my Playstation VR) is the best so far (in my opinion). The tables look great, the effects going on around the table are quirky and fun, and to me it feels the most like real pinball. I have to imagine VR pinball would be way cheaper than head tracked virtual pinball with 3D glass...

Having to put anything on your head is lame. That's why VR never really took off.

Everyone on this forum whines about "getting young people into pinball" so the hobby doesn't die when you all get old and sell your shit to move to Florida.

Well pin prices are going through the roof while LCD prices are dropping through the floor. Maybe the latter is the solution?

No item ever became mass market by increasing the price. Well... Except Apple.

#1334 10 months ago
Quoted from Brijam:

Well, like you said, they woudln’t. If VR goes mainstream, and it’s looking quite doubtful at this point with less than 1% penetration, somebody will do it. And it might be better than existing virtual pinball (might), but it would still suck compared to real pinball.

Kids used to play Cowboys and Indians outside with toy pistols and sticks. Now they all play Call of Duty.

The technology of simulation can create better than real life experiences. It's just hard to imagine with pinball because the technology we use is a f'ing joke compared to the games industry.

#1360 10 months ago

You could have a pair of solenoids inside the virtual pin to give flipper feel. Perhaps a third as a general purpose knocker. Accelerators could feel nudges and also act as a tilt bob.

Then probably some higher resolution haptic feedback motors (near the flipper buttons) to simulate things such as the feel of ball roll or impact.

Pinball isn't skydiving, car racing or sex. It's a person watching a ball roll around under glass while they feel and hear the vibrations of mechanics.

"Better than reality" - you could do visual tricks like Zen Pinball. Things that can't possibly be built. Should keep it to a minimum, what I'd do is have cool mechs that would be too expensive / fragile for a real game, but still feel physically possible.

1 month later
#1510 8 months ago

Be interesting to see if deeproot does use new technologies.

Was at this interesting dinner at a Silicon Valley BBQ with Tanio and Jeri Ellsworth about 8 years ago. Pinball of course came up. One of the other people said "Oh I toured Stern once. They were still using wires. It was cute"

#1518 8 months ago

A big roadblock in the advancement of pinball are the customers.

"I hate surface mount!" they un-ironically type into their phones, which would be the size of IBM typewriters were it not for surface mount.

#1524 8 months ago
Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:

That is a strawman logical fallacy. No one objects specifically to surface mount, they object to being forced to spend $350 for a new board instead of 30 cents for the failed component. If surface mount becomes as easy or cheap to repair as through hole is now customer objection will disappear.

That's Stern using replacement parts as a profit center.

Why can't node boards be repaired?

#1532 8 months ago
Quoted from deeproot:

If only one could get the benefits of SM and the ease and cheapness of TH. Hmmmmm...

The benefits of surface mount are plentiful:

1) Can get actual, modern parts (a lot of through hole is now obsolete or gone)
2) Can be placed by robot
3) Smaller
4) Won't tilt under vibrations and cause a "fix it" kit to be sent out which is basically a zip tie.

Through hole only has 1 plus - it's easy for noobs.

#1568 8 months ago

If you made Blade Runner pinball you'd have to set the playfield to .5 degrees and run the flippers at 12 volts to match the pace of the movie.

#1626 8 months ago

Sparks and smoke... Two things which indicate electrical failure and they want to put them inside an enclosed wooden box?

#1631 8 months ago

I read the US Air Force is really low on new fighter pilots.

So not only is a new Top Gun topical it will serve as great proganda like the first! (which equals free use of military equipment for producers)

#1635 8 months ago

Kurt Russel's beard should get a Lifetime Achievement Award Oscar.

#1651 8 months ago
Quoted from jonesjb:

I’d like a John Carpenter hits pinball machine.

So you'd like a Halloween pinball?


#1687 8 months ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

Deeproot won’t have a game to show

Ah.... don't be so sure of that.

1 month later
#2018 6 months ago

Something one must keep in mind with a transparent LCD is that is can only block light, not create it. You'd have to make the inside cabinet very bright to act as a backlight. You'd also have light losses with the pair of polarization filters.

You'd also have to track or somehow detect the height and position of the player to make sure the FX are drawn in the correct spot for perspective.

Also re: visor - nobody is going to wear that. Sorry. It's the secret reason why VR is dead.

#2043 6 months ago

3D = gimmick to sell more TVs

4k TV = gimmick to sell more TV's (you can't see difference from 1080p unless you sit 3 feet from screen)

4k gaming = gimmick to sell more graphics cards that cost a fortune thanks Bitcoin

VR = cool tech but nobody wants to wear that when gaming.

#2062 6 months ago

VR is soooooo 2013. Seriously folks, it's done. Talking about the wonders of it today is like those people who audibly gasp when the 3D kicks in at the movie theater.

Now I'd agree VR is the best way to make a "virtual" pin. You could just have the first foot or so of a pin, grab onto the flippers and rest is simulated. But we don't really want that, do we?

Nope. People want big bulky collectibles so their basement looks like a bar to remind them of when they were single. It's the secret (not so secret?) reason Heigheway's modular system would never take off.

Remember this is a hobby where people pay a $17,000 premium for different decals on a wooden box.

#2072 6 months ago
Quoted from Bublehead:

benheck, you say VR is dead, but how many are willing to give up hope on a Holo-deck experience so easily? When the two technologies finally converge, the one which currently exists, and the one which is so far advanced it makes VR look like bone knives and bearskins, humans will flock to it, no?

It won't be Holodeck, much more likely The Matrix where you plug yourself into games and it interrupts your brain functions. Basically a video game dream.

But that's many decades away.

1 week later
#2144 6 months ago

I am still upset that I was ever even involved though would like to point out I was paid zero dollars and there was no contract for use of my likeness. So I was taken for a pointless ride like everyone else.

#2153 6 months ago
Quoted from jlm33:

- As soon as JPop announced he would then build 100+ or more RAZA, the Assembled-in-your-garage approach would not work anymore.

Spooky made all 150 AMH's in a pair of units under 2k Sq ft total. Not all that different than a garage.

As I've said a zillion times the difference between early Spooky/Scott and Jpop is Spooky had to SHOW A REAL GAME to get any money. People don't work very hard for money that's already in the bank.

#2190 6 months ago

Why doesn't deeproot just save Alien or TBL?

I ask rhetorically, knowing the likely answer is Robert doesn't like those games or find then pretty enough.

But I think owners should set aside what they personally like (cough cough Charlie) and focus on what the market is asking for.

3 months later
#2595 74 days ago

Keep in mind a transparent LCD glass can only darken things it can't add light. Unless it's OLED but that would be unaffordable at this time.

Also you'd have to use a camera to track the players head and eyes to render the correct perspective.

#2670 73 days ago

This seems very car-like. The linear actuator means the "glass hood" opening will be computer controlled likely with a solenoid lock near the (traditional) lock down bar area.

How does one then open the game without power on? Is there a hole under the cab to disconnect the linkage like unlocking a 4 wheel drive for a tow? Linear actuators have very high gear ratios so moving it by hand would be hard. You'd also need a locked door for that as it would be a pinch point hazard if left open and kids crawled underneath.

This also could lend creedance to a possible "LCD as glass" feature because you'd actually need to sandwich an LCD with more glass to protect it from ball knocks. Making it heavier furthering the need for mechanical assistance. The fact that glass stays attached also points to electrical connections going to again much like the rear hatch of a car.

Seems cool but would be expensive, and this game's weight will be "Hold my beer" to Hobbit and TNG.

2 weeks later
#2894 57 days ago

Since they're in Salt Lake City my guess is Robert hired people laid off when Disney closed Avalanche Software (makers of Disney Infinity the Skylanders clone)

As for ball tracking it could be done with ASICs (application specific integrated circuits) your modern car is loaded with this stuff. And yes, for any other industry they'd say "a $20 camera is cheaper than 20 $3 switches"

The "problems" of Pinball are minor and could be solved by any sufficiently large company in a heartbeat.

#2918 57 days ago

"Modern" pinball machines are laughably primitive compared to most other things.

If a large tech driven company bothered to do anything in the realm of Pinball they would squash every company like an elephant on an ant.

#2922 57 days ago

Jeri Ellsworth could make a ball-tracking ASIC in her sleep.

#2928 57 days ago
Quoted from lpeters82:

If it were modernized they might attract a new audience, but do you think the current audience would follow?

Possibly not, they might get "triggered" by surface mount components and serial... anything.

#2969 56 days ago

I like the part where I start a game after John, spend very little of my own money developing it (maybe 5 grand) and release it for manufacturing before he even gets bailed out the first time by Bill Brandes.

#2990 56 days ago

Come on now.

If TOM or TOTAN had better code they'd be Top 3 pins instead of Top 10 pins.

#3043 56 days ago

There's a simple reason why pinball doesn't have any of this advanced technology.

It's not because it isn't possible. It's because everyone capable of doing it already have six figure jobs at SpaceX, Apple, Tesla, NASA, Lockheed Martin or (insert giant tech corp here).

#3063 55 days ago

I found an image of what your smart phone would look like if it were limited to 35 year old tech like a pinball machine.

bag phone (resized).jpg
#3087 55 days ago

I think the P3 Cannon Lagoon game was awesome. Made great use of the hardware and most importantly you don't have to tell the player what to do.

1 week later
#3283 43 days ago
Quoted from BMore-Pinball:

I also think people spend too much time thinking about fonts and the letter H

I spent 30 hours "thinking about fonts" for ACNC. I made a custom comic font and tested the kerning (spacing) of every letter pair so they wouldn't overlap on screen. I even tested "impossible" pairs like XX. Why? Because I knew the programmer WOULDN'T think about that.

When it comes to ignoring details "you snooze you loose"

#3286 43 days ago

I chimed in because I think fonts ARE important. I thought the Willy Wonka logo looked weird at MGC but Aurich actually figured out why and I agree with his assessment.

Maybe deeproot will pay attention to details better than the other companies we will see.

#3291 43 days ago
Quoted from lpeters82:

It's probably something most don't notice, unless it's "off".

Yes like a doctor reading an xray, a dentist poking your teeth or a contractor looking at your walls.

Just because you don't notice something doesn't mean it's not wrong.

But hey it's art, easy fix.

#3314 42 days ago
Quoted from harryhoudini:

One of the main reasons I don't own a Houdini is due to fonts. Chiller just doesn't work as part of a steam punk-esque, turn of the century game. Neither does bright neon green or purple but that's a different story. The animations and graphics on that game look like a kid in computer graphics class made them. If anyone here should be owning a Houdini I think it should be me and they just killed it for me. Now no one will touch that topic since AP did it so I'm going to have to suck it up and get one someday, ugh.

What does steam punk have to do with Houdini? Answer: nothing. I agree the display on Houdini isn't great but it's a masterclass of cohesive design compared to Oktoberfest.

When you make scores indicators etc look like real world objects it's called skeumorphic design. It was hot in the early iPhone days but beyond obsolete now. It's one of the weak points on the Wonka machine too, makes stuff on screen harder to read.

#3403 40 days ago

When you take your time machine back to 1998 to get cheap CV's don't forget to buy up a bunch of $1 Apple stock

2 weeks later
#3444 21 days ago

Did you know John never had a contract or agreement for use of my likeness? I think he was just trying to flatter me into building him controller boards.

I like the kind of flattery that I can put in the bank.

#3463 21 days ago

"Setting up pins in your home" was John's idea. I was as shocked as everyone else when he mentioned it.

He had NO business sense, the above being a perfect example. You don't fly in Steve Jobs to service your iPhone (extreme example but not far off the mark)

Hopefully deepRoot has him in a "creative director but with a boss" position which is where he could excel one would hope.

2 weeks later
#3767 1 day ago
Quoted from pin2d:

Hello all! So their has been some discussion on the deeproot article after the tour, and your of course open to you’re opinion on it! There up to quite a bit they’re to, definitely peeked my interest. Planning on an article to be released on TWIP in the next couple weaks!

Piqued your interest #grammerWars

#3776 1 day ago
Quoted from pin2d:

Keep looking! Its a lot more grammar problems than just that. I mean, “it’s” a lot more...

Oh damn your right. Its true all I noticed was the common misspelling of "piqued". I could care less about all the other mistakes I cant bare to see.

#3786 17 hours ago

Yeah I'm surprised nobody has said anything about the proposed character design posted above. That looks nothing like any RAZA art we've seen pitched before.

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