Wake me up when they're shipping a fully functional game in quantity, otherwise I've heard this story too many times already.
Wake me up when they're shipping a fully functional game in quantity, otherwise I've heard this story too many times already.
Nothing would make me put down an enthusiastic pre-order faster than finding out the company I'm buying from is suing the programmer from Jpop's trashfire failures, that's the kind of dedication to customer service you can really trust.
Quoted from rubberducks:
Oursler is apparently back working for HW's new operators, on games 3 & 4
Nah, he's all Texas now. So that part at least scans.
I honestly didn't read the interview, glanced at it and just couldn't work myself up to care. It looks like really great work! Solid reporting, really a service, I just can't spare the emotional energy for this shit any more.
But for the sake of my friend David Thiel, who's work I respect immensely, and the same for my not-friend-but-I-sure-like-him Dennis Nordman who's a pinball god, I guess I wish them the best. The Jpop shit leaves a terrible taste in my mouth, but I'll let the people who lost money to that clown judge what happens.
I'm not sure how clear the details are on that, but it seems like it was Steve and/or Mark Ritchie maybe?
STEVE: Oh, World Cup. World Cup was taken over.
MARK: It wasn’t a bad pin, it’s still all right, actually we still operate it.
STEVE: In the end it turned out to be pretty Ok, but in the beginning it was handled by a newbie. The game designer was a stubborn newbie, and it had to be taken over by someone else.
MARK: Did this happen very often?
STEVE: Actually it never happened before unless somebody died or got sick.
MARK: Did he abandon the project or did he just get the sack?
STEVE: Neither. He cooperated, learned and latter did Theatre of Magic and some other really good work. But when he first came in he thought he just knew everything about making pinballs and it is just not that kind of thing. You have to live it for a long time, you must have an affinity for mechanicals and you have to be able to work with other people.
MARK: Working with others is essential, unless you are a going it alone.
Wait, they're saying they're still going to make Jpop Houdini even though there's now a different one actually made and shipping? That's just ridiculous.
Quoted from deeproot:
Our only response to AP's post is that their statements are not true, they contradict their attorney's private statements, they contradict the contract they voluntarily drafted and entered into with John, and (as to the trademark) appear to contradict federal law. We are proceeding with John's original Houdini design but not the Houdini name; which is consistent with our prior statement.
Don't mind us, by all means, keep fighting in the forums.
Starting a new company by inheriting a bunch of debt from something you had nothing to do with, along with the con artist who ran with all the money, what could go wrong?
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:
Absolutely! But because of all the prior fiascos, people are going to be skeptical until games and/or checks start coming out. Right now it's all talk.. which is all that ever came from JPop. And Heighway & DP arent' much further along yet...
I'm hardly a Heighway cheerleader, my frustrations are pretty public, but there are over 100 Aliens shipped, and however many Full Throttles, maybe less than that, but still a real game you could actually play. The company is struggling, their communication sucks, they're constantly digging out of the hole Andrew left them, and I'm not blaming anyone for being frustrated with them too. But games have shipped, the code is real (that's a big one), I don't think they belong next to vaporware.
Quoted from Roostking:
Not sure why Deeproot gets so much hate, but if they help get you guys paid back or a game, shouldn't we all be pulling for them?
It's not that I want anyone to get boned, I have friends who lost money with Jpop. But I have a tough love approach to it personally. People took a risk, they got conned, and they lost their money. It sucks. For most people it wasn't a huge sum, but legit thousands. I just don't really think the lesson should be "don't worry, someone will bail you out" and then Jpop gets to have a job again. He should never get to work in the industry again, instead of being enabled. That's my perspective at least.
I'm not losing sleep over it, and if someone is crazy enough to try and take on his debt and make his customers whole I can't be mad about that part. I hope it turns out well.
No one needs to defend me to Kim, he can whine into the void, I don't see it, and I don't care. Thanks, but don't bother.
Quoted from Roostking:
Sure, those who got burnt me get not even notice the money gone, but they still need to be made whole.
Why? Why do they need to be made whole? Again, I'm happy for them if they get something. I don't wish anyone ill. Ice and I used to argue, far as I'm concerned we're cool now, I hope he gets a game out of all this and loves it, I'm not petty about it or anything. I don't want to play it, but whatever. I'd knock back whiskeys with him any night and we could argue about it like old times until we were drunk and didn't care any more.
But they took a risk with a crazy loon who promised the moon. I got downvoted to hell and back for telling people it was dumb to give him money. No one wanted to hear it. I'm not gloating about it, and I wasn't the only one saying it, but let's be real. It was a legit risk, and life burns you sometimes when you take a risk. Sucks for the people, but pinball as a whole would probably be healthier if that was more straight forward and people thought twice. Play with fire, get burned, be more careful next time.
That's just my opinion on it. I suspect most people wouldn't agree, and that's ok. I think it sucks that in 2018 we're still talking about Jpop, and he's still working in pinball, and that's my take. If anyone doesn't like it, well, that's life.
Quoted from brucipher:
Would it have been your preference for JPop to completely vanish and those people to get nothing?
Yes. I thought I made that pretty clear.
Again, nothing personal to Ice, my friends who got burned, or anyone else. But I think natural selection should have taken its course on this one.
If Robert wants to start a pinball company, more power to him. I know from personal experience that it's not easy. Starting with a big dumb weight around your neck strikes me as very stupid. Why even dig that hole?
Do I want his company to fail? No. He's hired David Thiel, who's my friend, and I wish him nothing but luck. But I don't respect his choice, and I'm fine with just saying it.
Quoted from InfiniteLives:
that is exactly what he is saying, he thinks people who made a bad decision should have to live with losing their money.
I do. Is that so terrible? They gambled, they lost, so it goes. No one (hopefully) put up money they couldn't afford to lose, they weren't spending their 401k or kids' college funds.
Obviously the better outcome would have been John not being a fuckup, a liar, and a thief, and they all got cool limited games. But he was, they didn't, and that's how that ball rolled.
Pinball is hard. If John had just been honest, if he hadn't ponzi schemed, if he hadn't been an asshole who wanted to reinvent backbox hinges before flipping games then I'd say sure, let's forgive. He overreached and it failed. It happens all the times with Kickstarters for instance. But we know he was deceptive and shifty, and I say throw him in the lake of fire and walk away.
Quoted from brucipher:
Do you think the majority of the people who gave money really felt like they were "gambling"?
That's not the right question, the question is, were they? And the answer is yes. If they thought they weren't, well that's kind of the point I'm trying to make really.
Quoted from tamoore:
There were a lot of people who, at the time, were skeptical about giving that cat any moolah. Just didn't seem like a good idea to many.
For good reason. This isn't a "no one could have possibly seen this!" situation. I'm not trying to victim shame anyone. Just being honest. There were plenty of rational voices then, saying the same things. People chose to ignore it, as is their prerogative, and it didn't end well.
I hit a pothole badly last year, cost me $4k. F&$*ing run flat tires and new rims weren't cheap. Sucks, but shit happens. My own damn fault for buying a pricey car instead of practical one. I knew that when I paid for it, so I sucked it up, that the cost was on me and my choices. Ain't nobody to be mad at but myself really.
Quoted from pinstor12:
You hit a pothole on accident, I assume. In your control, mostly.
I trusted jpop would deliver his product . Out of my control, mostly.
Two totally different things.
You missed the point. The pothole is a shit happens thing, accident, could have avoided, whatever. If I didn't drive a stupid car it would have been cheap to fix. It was expensive because I paid the BMW tax. I knew when I bought the car that things wouldn't be cheap, so I couldn't be mad when the bill came due. I was an adult and dealt with the decision that got me there. You need to be an adult and realize you took a risk with sending money to an utterly unproven business man, who screwed you, and you lost it. Trusting him wasn't smart, just own it.
Whatever, I'm tired of arguing about it so bitter people can down vote me. Deeproot will do whatever they do. I'm bored with talking about it. Good luck everyone.
Quoted from goingincirclez:
They can't all be fools (can they?) so we're witnessing the birth of something truly impressive, or a wholesale con like never before been seen in any industry
His checks clear. I wouldn’t read more into it than that. Predicting much else seems pointless.
The only thing that’s for certain is pinball is always harder than people think.
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:
Unsure why Penn and Teller wouldn't be lumped together nor why one has a better ranking? Haven't they performed together for years?
Of the two Teller is the more serious magician, they don't have the same skill sets. Not to say Penn isn't talented, because he is.
If anyone knows about the game Dennis Nordman was working on in his workshop a few years back, with a sci-fi theme, that poster speaks way more to that than RAZA to me. Won't be surprised to find out he sold it to Deep Root. Hope he gets paid better than he did from Woah Nellie out of all this!
Alrighty, someone is clearly looking for attention, time to stop handing it out. Enjoy lighting candles at your jpop shrine kid.
Quoted from frolic:
No posts from you in these threads. You failed me.
I honestly drained any jpop thread I posted in ages ago, so I couldn't tell you where I was posting. The drain feature is amazing, so good for my mental health.
It's not like I was the only skeptic, I'm just trying to poke holes in this "no one was saying otherwise" narrative. We were. We pointed out the obvious flaws, and no one wanted to hear it. At least with Heighway Andrew had a freaking factory. They shipped games, they made that Bacardi thing, it all was real. He was just shitty at managing it all, and covered it up with a web of deceit. Different sort of delusions.
There were Alien flipping prototypes at Expo, the games had real code, real assets. Much like TBL the house of cards collapsed, but at least the games were real. Magic Girl doesn't even get to claim that.
Quoted from benheck:
But I think owners should set aside what they personally like (cough cough Charlie) and focus on what the market is asking for.
I don’t agree with this. Frankly there are MUCH easier ways to make money than running a pinball company. If you’re not doing what you love and care about, personally and emotionally, then what’s the point?
But this is also my argument for why licenses are dumb so ...
Quoted from toyotaboy:
There's a reason why Sigourney Weaver's likeness wasn't in it, either it was too expensive, or someone else already had the rights to her.
It wasn't at at clear to me Fox couldn't have given us her rights, my impression was they simply weren't going to do that to their star, she had to sign off. We couldn't use the English actors because of legal reasons with their contracts, everyone else was fair game, no special permission needed to use their clips and voices.
I don't think Andrew ever got through to Sigourney, her agent probably said sure, for $100k or whatever, never asked her and that was that. But who knows, transparency wasn't a speciality inside of Heighway, so I'm just guessing based on things I was told.
Quoted from zeddex:
Except all the time and money that has to be spent designing, manufacturing and storing for multiple versions of the same game, same cabinet etc. While certainly not the biggest problem that led to the implosion of Heighway.....it was certainly a crippling factor in their never ending ALIEN development cycle. Trying to make things work with the Full Throttle hardware.....then trying to come up with a way to take care of Full Throttle owners when they were finally forced to upgrade computer specs. Trying to determine pricing that didn't fully flip out customers who had bought into the swappable story.... IE play fields that cost 3/4 of a full dedicated cabinet.
This is really a hugely important point I think. I have no idea why we've decided swappable playfields are coming, but I definitely don't recommend them for a new manufacturer for the above reason. You get locked into your initial design decisions with no room to update and fix things as problems come to light because everything you do has to be backwards compatible with what you started with.
Heighway made dumb decisions and then got trapped between pissing off their existing customer base (such as it was) while making new customers worry about how future proof their purchases would be, and fixing things so they were better, but would no longer work with old systems.
The 40 animators thing is real.
Seems crazy, but who knows what they’re actually up to. I’ll admit it has me curious now though.
Quoted from John_I:
I'm posting because that video posted on the previous page is DAMN impressive. The production value is miles ahead of anything JJP or Stern has done
It's really interesting to see a reaction like this. What is it about it that strikes you so much, out of curiosity?
Quoted from EDMAN:
Just curious...did JPop get any permissions from the Mars Attacks illustrators (original trading cards/movie) in regards to his original artwork for RAZA?
I feel like Zombie Yeti told a story about this, but now I'm not sure. Don't want to quote anything from a bad memory.
But, can we stop calling it "his" original artwork? He didn't draw shit.
Some people have been more impressed with the promo video than I was, but that's okay. I don't see any point in trying to dissect it, we don't even know what it is. It's an unlisted video that someone shared. Not a lot of context. Is the aspect ratio related to the game? No one knows, so it's meaningless. It could have been throw together over a weekend for a presentation for all we know.
I find it much more interesting to talk about why it excites people. If you liked it that doesn't mean you have shitty taste, it means you saw it and got excited, and that's cool. Forget the technical stuff, if you got an emotional rise out of it something was working.
I no longer really have the ambition to make my own game, but if I did, man, can you beat Pinside for free market research? It's a gold mine of opinions!
I think people spend too much time thinking and talking about Jpop.
And not enough time on the other people there. There’s a ton of real experience and talent in the game making department not named John.
I’ve been part of a sinking pinball ship ffs, nobody thinks I’m naive right?
I also got to work with David Thiel. Any game he’s involved in I’m at least curious. I don’t pry into his business, and he’s too professional to tell me anything he shouldn’t.
What’s Dennis Nordman up to? Are they giving him free reign? They’re making whitewoods, well Heighway never even gave him that. He and I had drinks and talked Alien, I know how he feels about how it went. AFAIK he’s still with Deep Root, right? He quit Heighway remember.
There are more names too, I don’t know them personally though. But I know they can do good work.
I’m willing to wait and see before pre judging. American Pinball and Spooky showed it’s not always a shit show.
If the games aren’t good I’m never shy to say so, but we haven’t seen anything.
They’re delayed. I see that as hopefully a positive. I know about pushing out too early. Waiting can be smart.
Who knows? Just feel like the Jpop thing gets all the oxygen. We’ve all said what we think before, we all know where people stand. I think suing him is stupid. If you lost your money just admit you gambled it away, and should have always been prepared to lose it. Move on.
If you get a game from them with some credit, I don’t understand it, but cool.
We’ll find out soon right?
If you don't think fonts are important it just means you shouldn't be put in charge of them, that's all. There's really nothing more to discuss on that, I don't care if you're not interested in them as long as it's not your job. For the people who are designing games I expect them to pay attention, absolutely.
If Deep Root games have shitty fonts we can talk about it. We haven't seen anything, so what relevance does it have now? Nothing.
Quoted from benheck:
Maybe deeproot will pay attention to details better than the other companies we will see.
Details matter. When you're a craftsperson and good at your craft you take care of things that not everyone will be aware of. Not everyone has to pay attention to fonts. Not everyone has to understand how callout pools work, and how to randomize them properly. How to make sure the soundtrack ducks properly for that callout. David Thiel takes care of that for you. He cares about the minutiae and attends to it.
A ramp entrance being a millimeter or two wider or narrower, to the left or two the right, that matters. Can make the difference between a smooth shot and a clunky one, or turn a regular shot into something that feels really satisfying for some reason.
Details are what turn a good game into a great game. Sweat the little stuff and it adds up.
Quoted from TreyBo69:
As far as I'm concerned, deeproot doesn't matter until there is a game I can pay cash for and immediately load up in the car.
Damn right, nobody should send them a dime now, and they haven't asked for any so that's good at least. I think the investors for this company are probably morons honestly. Or getting utterly snow jobbed. Or rich as shit and just love pinball, I dunno. It's a dumb way to invest money, clearly. The burn rate alone makes no sense to me. But I can't see the books and projections, so what the fuck do I know.
But there are a bunch of interesting people who might do some interesting things with all that cash, and I'm curious and not really interested in still talking about Jpop nonstop. Fuck Jpop. I think he should be booted from the industry and never work on a game again, hiring him is a joke.
But I'm not really petty enough to throw the baby out with the bath water, for the sake of the folks like Thiel and Nordman I'm interesting to see what happens. And if Deeproot for some unfathomable reason makes Zidware investors somewhat whole? Who could be mad at that, even if it makes no sense?
If the games are good, and well priced, and actually ship, nobody will give two shits about what anyone in this thread said.
If they games aren't good, or are too expensive, or they aren't shipping, nobody will give two shit about what anyone in this thread said.
Phil got up at Expo and offended everyone by trash talking, and if Lebowski wasn't a vaporware disaster from a dead company it would still be selling. Is it smart to come on Pinside and brag and trash talk? Not really. Will it make any difference in the end? I guess that one guy who likes the games a lot but is really mad you insulted JJP might not buy out of principle.
Quoted from delt31:
GD this thread is deep. So much pinball drama it's INSANE.
I'll tell you what, Robert please don't sue me for posting my proverb free opinion in a forum, but I actually have way more faith in Deeproot than I ever did in the Jpop nonsense. What's gonna happen? Hell if I know. The burn rate and grand dreams seem crazy to me. But I'm not their accountant, and nobody here is out money, so who cares?
Maybe they've got 5 secret weapon games, maybe it's horribly managed and slowly spiraling down the drain. Not a clue. But I do know that there are smart people working on stuff there, and presumably more business sense than Jpop ever had, so who knows? Maybe it's working.
The checks are clearing as far as I know. David Thiel is still working there, and I respect him a ton. Dennis Nordman is one of my favorite designers, and remember what happened with Heighway when Andrew tried to fuck everything up on the time table? Dennis walked. Kinda badly, in a public and weird way too, he just bailed the fuck out. As far as I know he's still with DR. They didn't get the Andrew treatment.
The only 'bad sign' really that we've seen is things are late. And my personal experience with Heighway is you're better to ship late then too early. As long as you don't see a stream of people out the door, my personal non legal advice is just see what happens. Judge on the end, what do you have to lose? Some patience? There's always more drama to be found.
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