(Topic ID: 203700)

deeproot Pinball thread


By pin2d

2 years ago



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Topic index (key posts)

10 key posts have been marked in this topic

Post #111 Firsthand information from the Magic Girl programmer. Posted by applejuice (2 years ago)

Post #3026 RAZA promotional video Posted by vireland (7 months ago)

Post #5771 First RAZA gameplay video Posted by ZMeny (28 days ago)

Post #5874 RAZA video with more audible game sounds Posted by zaphX (27 days ago)

Post #5926 First RAZA video with successful ramp completion Posted by zaphX (27 days ago)

Post #5967 Another RAZA gameplay video Posted by flynnibus (27 days ago)

Post #6050 Closeup pictures of key playfield features Posted by Potatoloco (26 days ago)

Post #6133 Video of display animations Posted by LateCenturyMods (25 days ago)

Post #6329 Summary of Robert Mueller's interview Posted by jeffspinballpalace (23 days ago)

Post #6724 RAZA Gameplay video Posted by DS_Nadine (17 days ago)


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#1497 1 year ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

I guess the slot machine guys are from another planet then?

Nope but machine retails for 20.000$, make a bit more than 1$ every 30 minutes and have a bit less of custom made parts in it than pinballs

#1505 1 year ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

I have a recent pachinko machine and it has a 3D LCD that doesn't require glasses.

Brand new pachinko machines cost around 5000$ but the annual income is in hundred of billions and game rooms in Japan are required to change all of them every 1 or 3 years (can't remember the exact time but it's short), so second hand machines can be bought for close to nothing. Some machine sell in million units, that industry is on a whole different scale than pinball

In any case I wouldn't put a 3D screen on a pinball machine, I don't think it brings anything to the table and it takes time to the eyes to focus on a 3D image which would make it terribly annoying in game.

#1508 1 year ago
Quoted from toyotaboy:

Yet we hardly see any of those machines make it over here, and when they do the sellers want $1k and up. But yes you are right, pachinko is still huge in japan, so are claw machines. People sometimes go to these places as almost like a shopping center. Some take advantage:
https://www.liveleak.com/view?t=3SOu_1536002094

Don't buy from US importers, it's robbery. Pachinko and Pachislo can be found on Yahoo auctions Japan, and you can use Buyee.jp who can handle pick up, shipping, customs etc... for a small fee.

This beauty is at 130 dollars currently : https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/h274417737

2 weeks later
#1684 1 year ago
Quoted from spfxted:

Nobody hates the company! Just Poppadouchebag!!

I understand J-Pop can be hated for what he did to his Zidware trusting customers, but I don't think anyone can deny his skills in game design and that's why I'm excited to see what deeproot comes in with their army of killers.

1 month later
#1998 1 year ago

They haven't opened preorders, taken clients money, or make any announcements on what exactly they are working on, and what machines they will release. So at this point it's a business teasing (a bit too much IMO) on a future release who says how much they spend to show they are serious about it.

so if it comes out, great, we'll see what games they produce, and if it doesn't then no harm done except to their investors who hopefully knew what they were getting into.

In any case that approach is less harmful to the community at least for now until they start taking preorders money following the reveal.

#2002 1 year ago
Quoted from o-din:

It must have come out of thin air then.
I've also heard with the right fertilizer, it will also grow on trees.

Do I really need to explain the difference between a client and an investor ?

That fertilizer must be a bit too strong...

#2004 1 year ago
Quoted from o-din:

I looked up client-
"a person or organization using the services of a lawyer or other professional person or company."

Now I wonder why they separate the lawyer from the rest of the crowd !

2 months later
#2360 10 months ago
Quoted from Sinestro:

Michael J. Fox has said that his agent was responsible for keeping him off the backless on the old Data East game, and that he regretted it after the fact.
Christopher Lloyd licensed his image for the BTTF game, as well as Addams Family. Seems he's up for it as long as he's paid.

I didn't even know actors owned rights to the characters they play. I wonder if that's why on WOZ, Judy Garland is mentioned separately.

#2375 10 months ago
Quoted from hank527:

What? He never admitted he was wrong or apologized for any of it.
He should not be working and I will not buy anything from deep root with his name on it. F him and his noodling and crappy persona.

I’m not a fan of his games to begin with, so that sorts out my choices without needing to get into moral values !

#2388 10 months ago
Quoted from pin2d:

I try to work with all manufacturers as much as they will let me. If I'm shown something privately that they don't want public, I don't share it of course.

It's great you've managed to build a good trust relationship with them so they would disclose infos to you without getting you to sign an NDA. It's not so common nowadays.

#2412 10 months ago
Quoted from Brijam:

If their burn rate is $9mm per year (as was posted a few months ago) and their net profit is $2,500 per pin, their breakeven is about 10 pins a day every day of the year, or about 14 pins a day running their factory 5 days a week with a two week holiday.

There is a difference between net profit and gross margin. 2500$ net profit per machine on a 10k retail would actually be a very profitable business I would gladly invest in !

1 month later
#2558 8 months ago
Quoted from Rondogg:

So quiet...Midwest Gaming is obviously out or there would have been an announcement. My guess? They got the BTTF license a few months ago and are reskinning something so that it's part of the initial release.

Mine is that they are still trying to get JPop to get his fingers out of his arse

#2571 8 months ago

Pulling a playfield has never been an issue, who would buy a pinball because it has a new system. They really should spend their money on building good games.

#2658 8 months ago
Quoted from tiesmasc:

The idea of a swapable playfield may not be novel and thus not patentable... particularly since it has been implemented before.

That is not what a patent do. There are new patents to roast chickens or to brush teeth pretty much every day.

#2718 8 months ago

With JJP coming up with Wonka, revealing a Deeproot pinball feels like pushing an indie ps4 game the day Take 2 releases a new GTA. Not sure it's a good idea !

#2738 8 months ago
Quoted from Zavadoza:

It's 12 different games that have a whitewood at this time. (And many more according to Robert Mueller). My information is first hand from someone I and the entire pinball community respect a lot.
It's not some revelation. They have 5 game designers working on multiple projects. Everyone knows this.

So 12 whitewood, after all why not. But is there at least 1 game that is "complete", art, playfield, code, graphics and sound ?

#2754 8 months ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

Announcing something and not being able to deliver is bad as well.

Bragging about spending millions, then saying 12 whitewoods on the work while pushing a reveal date is even worse communication in my opinion.

And doing it to an audience of educated people in the field while throwing JPop’s name in the middle who is known for having fooled his early supporters makes it the worse buzz launch in the history of pinball.

So if I would ever consider buying a Deeproot it would be cash on the glass and straight in my truck.

#2763 7 months ago
Quoted from clempo:

With so many machines in the works, obviously their catalog will include many games available at the same time. Could it be that octo manufacturing means they can produce up to 8 different titles on the same line, constantly mixing what is built depending on current orders?

Or a playfield with 8 themes !

#2813 7 months ago

Cool, they've made a cgi intro movie. Can we see a pinball machine now ?

#2856 7 months ago
Quoted from kdecgp:

Is a backbox even necessary anymore?

I was thinking the exact opposite, what’s the point in putting the screen behind the playfield when there is plenty of space in the backbox ?
Unless they go for some backbox thing like CV or BR.

#2857 7 months ago
Quoted from toyotaboy:

Google Zingy Bingy, you'll see how weird a game without a backbox looks (not going to post here for obvious reasons)

I just googled it, I think no backbox is the least weird thing on that machine !

But I do think the lock hole of BOP would have fit perfectly on that one !

#2905 7 months ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

It would be a problem. Also, where do you think the cameras would go? Cameras because they'd have to be below the playfield glass and therefore there'd need to be several of them. They couldn't go in the head and expect to have a useful view, and at that angle reflections would be terrible. A seperate external overplayfield mount would be rejected by locations and a lot of home buyers, and would still suffer with reflections.
Not just dark, but light too. LEDs are bright.
From just about every perspective it would be crazy to even try.

You don't need a camera to track a ball on a playfield. Anki Overdrive is an exemple on how recognizing placement of little cars on a track can be achieved. It's a commercial product, decently cheap (150$ for the complete starter set), and is fully performed locally.
Here some details on how they do that, they claim (but no way to verify) that each car check its position 500 times per second.
https://thenextweb.com/insider/2013/11/11/anki-drive-reveals-secret-track-technology-guides-ai-controlled-cars/

#2908 7 months ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

and completely useless for this kind of application. It is the inverse of what is needed in pinball. In pinball, the moving object is the stupid inert thing... not the smart thing moving over a fixed map.
The ball can't track itself... something has to locate it. IR grids and ultimately cameras are the most popular ways to detect position of a foreign object.

The ball is the same as the car, it's the moving object, and it's the one that has the IR camera. The difference on the ball is that it rolls, so it would need either a very reactive gyroscope or an array of IR lights, each on its own frequency most likely.

I am not saying this could replace the switches as I don't even think the switches are what needs to be replaced, but I am saying there are other methods than a camera to track a moving object in a closed environment.

#2914 7 months ago
Quoted from Jvspin:

Sounds like a great idea! Would still need to power the individual IR transmitters but they would just be on 100% or better, pulsed to conserve power. No more (or greatly reduced) wiring the playfield into a switch matrix.

Induction charging in the ball through. Just added 20$ to the cost of a ball !

#2920 7 months ago
Quoted from benheck:

"Modern" pinball machines are laughably primitive compared to most other things.
If a large tech driven company bothered to do anything in the realm of Pinball they would squash every company like an elephant on an ant.

That's very true. I think about it every time I lift my WOZ playfield up, it has pretty much the same ingredients as my STTNG from 20 years ago

#2934 7 months ago
Quoted from deeproot:

So that was you... good thing I prepared them.
—Robert dT

Since you are here, I'll throw my bet in !

I doubt you have 40 animators to just work on backbox animation, so my bet is that you are working on a hybrid pinball a la Multimorphic P3, but have designed a way to swap a whole playfield that comes on top of the screen instead of a swappable portion of the playfield.

I don't expect an answer, I'm just throwing it here !

#2941 7 months ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

adol75

It really was answered answered every time ever this comes up.
TWIP itself wrote long ago it looks like classic pinball. If I remember correctly he said the backbox differed.
So adol75 if not everyone was telling the same lie you're 100% wrong.

Then I don't see the point of having 40 animators on the job, but I guess time will tell. Really wishing them the best on their endeavour, but speculating on the little information we are given is still fun to do !

-1
#3027 7 months ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

You should re-read yourself afterwards to understand just how ridiculous this is.
Is the ball also going to be transparent? Because it would need to be as it rolls so your cameras will have to see out every possible portion of the ball as the ball surface rolls past. And then we should talk about how you are going to fit all this in that space... and make it reliable as it goes through crazy G forces and impulses.. and must all fit in the size of a pinball.. and play like a pinball.
Oh and it needs to be powered... so we'll need a battery.. and a charging system...
etc etc etc.
DOA dude

You know (or maybe you don’t) the medical industry use cameras that fit in a pill swallowed by the patient, self guided and self stabilized. It’s the 10th of the size of a pinball.

But anyways, since you didnt read what I’ve posted after, I didn’t say it was realistic or doable, I also did not say it should be done. What I said though is that there was other methods than a camera to track a ball in a closed environment.

#3030 7 months ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

You and the cameras in the ball guy should hang out more often.. two peas in a pod.

The ball doesn’t need a camera but you surely need glasses Mr Pea !

An Ir beam or an array of them, who said anything about a camera !

#3032 7 months ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

We still can hang out tough.

With pleasure !

#3060 7 months ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

They also don't hit them with bats and throw them around at a few m/s or smash them with other steel objects. You're comparing apples and cucumbers.
"There are other methods..." and you illustrate that with examples you acknowledge are not "realistic or doable"
That's the idiocy of this thread over the last two days... supporting points with stuff you know is complete garbage. Knew so much.. you even went back to the well three times to refine it..

The FIFA had similar issues when they started the goal line project, the ball was moving and being hit hard and played under hard weather conditions. On top of it it had to be precise by the millimeter and 100% reliable in a billion dollar industry solely based on the ball passing the line or not.

Bottom line of the story is with the right people and the right money the sky is the limit.

#3078 7 months ago
Quoted from jawjaw:

Love how you guys are painting pinball machines as some archaic relics built by chimpanzees. I can't help but noticed how difficult it is for manufactures to produce these games in a timely manner while being reliable and making a profit. You don't have to make everything a "smartphone" just for the sake of being high tech. Needing a bunch of high payed engineers to reinvent a basic cheap switch that works well doesn't sound like a good plan to me.

When you look at the threads here that follow every new pinball release it shows reliability is a serious issue for manufacturers. Between transport, QA miss, core design issues and general maintenance, owning a pinball is far from being a plug and play hobby.

I often have friends who come and play and who think of buying one, but when I give honest answer on the time I spend on maintenance they get cold feet and go with an easier hobby.

I think maintenance is part of the fun but along with price, it's clearly an obstacle to adressing a wider audience in the home entertainment market.

#3103 7 months ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Sec Reg D filing. Public record
Updated every August
So lots of burn/runway

Any idea about how much JJP raised ? I'm curious to see how this compares although JJP already had a foot in the market when they did their raise.

#3104 7 months ago
Quoted from TreyBo69:

That old phone’s six D-cells would die during a five minute call. A smartphone can handle at least a half-hour (jk no one uses the phone part of their smartphone anymore)

Or you can buy this very sexy Energizer phone !

Energizer (resized).PNG
2 weeks later
#3341 7 months ago
Quoted from JodyG:

Pinball is easy when you are burning through 750k of other peoples money every month with no money coming back in.

It’s the bet every investor and entrepreneur make, what is wrong with that ?

#3343 7 months ago
Quoted from JodyG:

Because they are obviously behind schedule, and have probably had to temper the expectations of said investors from what has been originally arrogantly promised. I hope they have a very patient group of investors.

Once your money is in, all that's left is to be patient. A standard slide of a business plan is the growth plan, it usually starts with a small blue box, that becomes bigger the year after and then goes off the slide on Year +2. and everyone knows it's total bullshit but it's still part of the plan !

And for entrepreneur finding the right investors also means getting the people that won't put a gun under your throat if you are late on delivery, because in the end it's always late.

#3376 7 months ago

There is a smaller niche in the niche pinball market, it's pinball designers. Obviously Jpop was at a dead end as a business owner, so his only chance was to get hired again. On the other hand, it's easier to raise money on a project at a paper level with some big names in the team. So there is a mutual interest there, even if it comes with an "investment" cost to deal with Jpop's mistakes.

In any case I'm glad the early backers may have a way to recover their money or get a pinball, I still hope the same goes with TBL's EA (and that they resume production !)

#3379 7 months ago
Quoted from DennisDodel:

$1300.00 NIB at the '98 Expo. At least 10 as I remember. I passed as did my son. Game was considered a dog at the time.

So you could have bought the whole stock and make 10 times the money a decade after !

#3385 7 months ago
Quoted from LTG:

I had one in my business in the early 2000's. Still a dog. Beautiful machine limping along at a buck or two a week. Not sad to see it go.
LTG : )

Same goes in video games (my other hobby), the best vintage ones sell for nothing as they were mass produced, and the ones called "rarities" were actually garbage back in the days, thrown in the 1$ basket and quickly withdrawn from production.

It makes we wonder if the best investment isn't to buy all the crap and store it in box for the next 20 years !

2 weeks later
24
#3460 6 months ago
Quoted from pin2d:

If all we wanted to do is compete with existing pinball manufacturers and churn out the outdated and uninspired pinball package as it exists in the market today

Second day of business school (25 years ago) : “Never sell your product by devaluating competitors”

It looks more like you have entered panic mode, I find you way less appealing suddenly.

But sure come and save 70 years of pinball history, all of us outdated fools will gladly welcome your 26th century pinballs.

ps : It’s actually the first time ever I feel LTG is angry, this should give you a clue or two on your communication skills.

#3622 6 months ago
Quoted from Pinball_Gizzard:

Just to clarify, I think Mr. Mueller was referencing the current generation of pinball machines with his statement. I also have to agree that what we are getting from Stern and JJP is really not much different from what was available in the 90s and in some ways worse than what was available in the 90s.
People may have an issue with how he said it but I don’t think you can make a convincing argument that Stern is pushing the envelope of pinball with their offerings.
People who become entrepreneurs are often outspoken and sometimes brash. It kinda goes with the territory.
Again, I go back to the fact that the ONLY thing that Deeproot has done so far that has a direct impact on a pinball customer is give them a way to recover some of their cash losses. Despite this they somehow get all this hate just because Mr Mueller made some outlandish claims at the start.
I’m content to wait and see what Deeproot does. If they come out with a new machine that is jaw dropping, great. If they push other manufacturers to improve what they are offering, fantastic. If they fall on their face then all that has happened is some people got some money back which is a good thing!

Stern has been keeping the industry alive for the last 20 years and managed to stay afloat while every other competitor sunk. They deserve to be praised for that and for still being the only ones able to deliver 3 new games a year.
JJP took it a step further by going back to the cost no object design that rules the industry during the golden age, with a far superior build quality, deeper integration, and toys, toys and more toys.

So seeing someone bragging and spitting on them, who came out of nowhere, with no track record in the industry, who is late of every single promise he made, and entered the business by saying "pinball is easy", is quite irritating to say the least, and clearly not brash but plain stupid.

#3624 6 months ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

Stern sunk. They were bailed out.
JJP were in the process of sinking. They were bailed out.

All the others sunk and no one bailed them out...

#3645 6 months ago
Quoted from pinstyle:

This is what I don't understand about a lot of people here. They hear the words investor and immediately go to "bail out". Most if not all companies relay on some type of funding to grow bigger faster. Has any one of you guys ever broken out a calculator and just punched in some rough numbers? Their sales are far in the millions. Its not THAT expensive to buy/lease a building, its not THAT expensive for a few hundred feet of gravity conveyor, cheap assembly labor etc....Anyone who thinks JJP or Stern are broke needs to take a really good look at things and start putting some numbers together. These guys are not in business to "Be broke, trying to drag their company across the finish line".

Sales are in millions but so is cost. There’s not much things that are scalable in this industry and having sold 5000 units of one doesn't mean the next one is gonna sell as well.

Pinball is a very fragile business, it takes passion and knowledge to be successful at it.

2 weeks later
#3697 6 months ago
Quoted from CLEllison:

I can understand the hatred from those who JPOP screwed. But what I dont understand is why the "ill will" towards DR? Yeah yeah the bluster comments probably could've been left out, but being excited about your own product is cool too! If they release AIW damn straight I'm ordering one. Missing deadlines .... is it really that big of a deal? I also dont see them holding anyones money hostage (excluding the JPOP mess) so not trying to be an ass but seriously ask really why all the hate? And to the haters, will you actually refuse to purchase a game even if it's majorally out of this world awesome?

Nah thank you, I’ll just keep my crappy games from the old generation of people who will never know what pinball really is.

#3760 5 months ago
Quoted from rai:

Don’t figure 50% profit. These aren’t iPhones or video games. More like Automobiles look at the small profits on those.

More like automobiles before car makers introduced common platforms thus lowering development cost to something much more scalable.

#3766 5 months ago
Quoted from pin2d:

Hello all! So their has been some discussion on the deeproot article after the tour, and your of course open to you’re opinion on it! There up to quite a bit they’re to, definitely peeked my interest. Planning on an article to be released on TWIP in the next couple weaks!

Great ! Looking forward to it

#3773 5 months ago
Quoted from delt31:

Bring it. Period

You forgot to put a period at the end of your sentence.

#3825 5 months ago

Whatever she looks like she surely doesn't look like « Hey we spent 10 million dollars and got 20 artists working for a year »

#3829 5 months ago
Quoted from Extraballz:

How about a picture of a mech. Just a little sneak peak.......

There are no mechs, mechs are a part of the old dusty pinballs.

1 week later
-2
#3896 5 months ago

Deepupyour...

#3910 5 months ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

Nice article from TWIP's Jeff!
https://www.thisweekinpinball.com/the-deeproot-tour-whitewood-wonderland-and-the-cart-before-the-horse-2/
I like what I read, but I really hoped for some pic glimpse.

Link is down, I guess someone in TX asked for some edits !

34
#3933 5 months ago
Quoted from deeproot:

Stay out of it Ben. I consider your comment to be providing legal advice without a license.
—Robert

I don’t know if you need a lawyer but you surely need to hire a communication specialist and hand him over all your social media accounts.

Anyways I hope you’re better at running a pinball company than at talking on forums.

#3964 5 months ago
Quoted from aeneas:

As John hid behind nda's theres maybe still an nda active which forbids Ben to give comments / insights about John or DR ?
And this was a warning to remind Ben about it ?
Just my thought how I interpreted this comment

Did it have to be public ?

#3980 5 months ago
Quoted from deeproot:

Stay out of it Ben. I consider your comment to be providing legal advice without a license.
—Robert

ill-slap-you-with-a-malicious-prosecution-lawsuit (resized).jpg
#4038 5 months ago
Quoted from Extraballz:

If Deeproot could just step up the build quality of current machines that would be a great marketing tool to use against the other manufacturers. It would give DP a good push forward on sales IMO and probably make the other manufactures tighten up their quality issues. One can hope.....

Have you played a JJP ?

#4045 5 months ago
Quoted from Aurich:

Plenty of them. What am I supposed to be observing?

Question wasnt for you !

#4049 5 months ago
Quoted from Extraballz:

Yes. I think JJP are the most ambitious machines we have. Question is are they being executed to a high level in quality/reliability. I would say sort of and they could be much better in that department. I think manufacturers can achieve 90;s B/W quality/reliability with JJP’s ambition.

The minute I laid my hands on my NIB WOZ, it felt like I was touching my old STTNG, heavy, solid with bats that don’t shake the whole cabinet when they flip and the sturdy sound that was distinct of the 90s Superpins.

I think JJP should be the standard of build quality, it’s surely unmatched in modern production.

3 weeks later
#4300 4 months ago
Quoted from LTG:

That is what did it for me, and the comment "outdated and uninspired pinball package as it exists in the market today".
I don't wish them anything bad. I hope they are very successful and build great games. What ever they build won't be for me.
LTG : )

Same page, this exact same comment marked the end of my interest for Deeproot.

#4305 4 months ago
Quoted from Reznnate:

I'm not that sensitive since I'm only a player. But this is the kind of attitude I personally want to see. I want them to shoot for the moon and I hope they don't step on their **** in the process. I want Deeproot to change the landscape and raise the bar, just as JJP has done.
Frankly, any new game must do something 'special' in order for me to 'upgrade' my current game collection.

It's the type of comment I would hope to get from players and clients, otherwise it's pure bragging.

Then putting down the competition while having done nothing, shown nothing and postponed some pseudo release dates for games that don't exist becomes a bit too much to keep any kind of excitement from me.

But then you know, as someone once said, Pinball is easy !

1 month later
#4879 3 months ago

20 new posts, I knew DR twitted a new illustration before opening the thread !

1 week later
#5017 81 days ago
Quoted from Manic:

But how do you know? Haven't they been around longer than ten years already? And isn't this the guy that gave CASH to previously screwed Jpoop customers? To me that buys some goodwill right there.
I find the bravado entertaining and since he hasn't asked for a penny from anyone... why are you so defensive?
I find his statements a little hard to take but so what? Why do you guys want to stifle ANYTHING pinball related?

I agree on that. Promising cash AND giving it to the people JPop screwed shows some very goodwill and is quite unheard of in the long history of pre orders screw up.

It doesn't leave much doubt on Robert's pocket depth. Where there is questions, I believe, is in his ability to build pinballs (And I won't even enter the consideration of building pinballs that relegates every single pinball maker to the stone age, and their clients to be suckers who bought crap).

I guess, writing a check is easy, unlike building pinballs !

#5020 81 days ago
Quoted from iceman44:

It’s public record under the Reg D filing with the SEC and as of last week they have raised over $32 million dollars thus far in their equity raise

So they have raised another 15 million recently ? I’d be curious to know at what valuation.

What’s becoming clearer is that they dont plan on only making pinballs otherwise putting 30 million on the table to sell pinballs is a total nonsense.

#5022 81 days ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Yeah not bad since last years filing.
It obviously can’t be all about pinball. The original offering was for $35 million and it looks like they upped it to $37.5 million

Well I hope it's still a little bit about pinball

#5054 76 days ago

I wouldn’t call boutique a company that employs 100 people, ship its products on every continent and has now shipped more than 10.000 units

3 weeks later
#5091 52 days ago
Quoted from PismoArcade:

On a new podcast, Christopher Franchi talked about how Deeproot wanted to work with him. Franchi then didn't hear from them and eventually went back to Stern.
According to Franchi, this pissed off Mueller who told Chris that he'll never work for Deeproot.

I guess it goes both ways. I won’t buy a deeproot game, if they ever exist, because I don’t like Robert.

#5101 51 days ago
Quoted from vireland:

Apparently not all of them hated what they saw. Softbank just threw WeWork a 5 billion dollar lifeline for a massive 80% company stake tonight.
Neumann gets $1.7 billion for his (almost?) con and agrees to step down and give up his voting rights. Not bad.

Maybe he is an investor in deeproot

#5130 48 days ago
Quoted from okgrak:

Solving problems that don’t exist was probably their pitch for raising 15M from investors.

Solving problems that don’t exist on a niche market would be one step closer to the truth

#5193 42 days ago
Quoted from ralphcousman:

Generally, standard clothing (like shirts, dresses, hats) will not be eligible for design patents. The name of your clothing line, if you have one, would be most likely to be protected by trademark laws. ... Once a logo or design gets trademark or trade dress status, the mark can be registered with the U.S. Customs Office.
Your clothing line must be unique with an original name, slogan, and logo in order to qualify for trademark protection. ... You can gain protection for your clothing brand by having your lawyer file a trademark application with the United States Patent and Trademark Office (USPTO).
no clothing design has trademarks patents etc, exceptions i would imagine are things like tactical gear, wearable tech etc. but you cant patent or trademark a style, a logo on that style yes but it is only the logo.

Louboutin has a trademark on the red sole and won in court against other shoe makers

#5194 42 days ago
Quoted from vicjw66:

You can’t patent a color. Anyone can put red on the bottom of their shoes. The company that tries to sue other companies for doing so would lose the case in court.

Louboutin has a trademark on the red sole and won in court against other shoe makers. YSL most notably, except if the shoe is red thus matches the sole.

#5196 42 days ago
Quoted from ralphcousman:

From the article about the case on the guardian. It’s in Europe,
“The legal case centred on European trademark law that forbids the registration of shapes where they add substantial value to goods.”
Which exists there not here or lots of other places.
Link to full article
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/business/2018/jun/12/christian-louboutin-ecj-ruling-red-soled-shoes

This ruling comes from a US federal court
https://abcnews.go.com/Business/louboutin-entitled-protect-signature-red-sole-court-rules/story?id=17163269

#5198 42 days ago
Quoted from 2pupPinz:

Never ever did I expect to see and read several posts concerning Louboutin on pinside. Later... I’m in the Twilight Zone

That's what I love about this Deeproot thread, since there are no pinballs there, it leaves the door open to a lot of cool topics !

#5207 41 days ago
Quoted from ralphcousman:

Doesn’t mean squat. Just google red soles shoes and look how many designers have them and they don’t have legal cases against them.
It’s been going on since 2011 , it’s hilarious that a man sells shoes with a red sole for crazy amounts of money then has to use that money to try to defend to be the only one to have shoes with red soles. What a waste of time. Like this thread.

A waste of time that created a shoe maker almost worty a billion dollars. Not your every day Al Bundy brand.

#5213 41 days ago
Quoted from JohnnyPinball007:

I am with you. Every time I see 12 new posts I am like hey, must be some new news about this new pinball company, then click on it, and nothing I was expecting.

You have to wait til you see 70 new posts. That usually means Deeproot posted a new drawing on twitter.
At 100 new posts it’s because Robert is about to sue someone.

#5217 40 days ago
Quoted from iceman44:

How many of you have paid a deposit on a DR pin?
How many of you have gotten reimbursed on the Jpop disaster from DR?
I took the pin versus a lesser cash benefit. Others took the cash and got PAID
Anyone bitching about DR coming soon has ZERO credibility other than they are either bored to tears like Odiner with nothing else to do all day but opine on Pinside.
It's not long now. The pitchforks are just getting warmed up for the haters no matter what. F ing hilarious because all you geniuses know wtf is going on.
I'm LMAO right now while i eat a bowl of chili.

I bitch about DR because the guy has been bragging for years anywhere between pinball is easy and wait til we come and show to every pinball maker how all they did was crap.

#5248 38 days ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

There is a building and a parking lot.

How many cars are in the parking lot ?

#5306 32 days ago
Quoted from cjchand:

Given the talent they have amassed, there’s no way this is Zizzle 2.0. I’m patiently, and eagerly, awaiting to see what they have - even if this is just a prototype.
What I *really* want to see is the “innovations” we keep hearing about. 99.9999% sure we won’t see that at Houston, but hope it’s not far behind.

It’s far beyond. They are so innovative that they’ve out innovated themselves.

#5344 30 days ago
Quoted from RA77:

Sorry,
I do not consider a CRT wedged into the back of a pinball cabinet AR
AR is a lot Deeper than 99 Tech

It was Augmented Reality though. Adding virtual elements on the playfield on top of physical pieces, and getting them to react to the actions made on the physical side is exactly what AR is.

#5534 29 days ago

It looks great, although playtime will tell what’s it worth.

I don’t see anything there that would teach a lesson to all the other manufacturers, it’s still a pinball.

#5924 27 days ago
Quoted from vireland:

Yes, but you won't buy TWO. Coming from you, that says a lot.
My main complaint from the videos is the playfield needs a lot more accent coloring to offset the greens. WAY TOO MUCH GREEN. And using a neon green pantone color instead of screened green, with less green overall, but a much more intense green might make it pop in a more pleasant way. Right now it's like someone vomited green all over everything.

I couldn’t agree more with you.

#6264 24 days ago

I saw a bunch of RAZA videos and all I saw was balls hitting nothing and staying in the lower part of the playfiels. No flashing, no calls, it really looked boring as hell.

Prototype or not, it was the reveal of Deeproot first game after years of bragging about themselves and spitting on everyone else. I also had to check my monitor setting twice I thought it lost the red and blue color, I really hope their is a lot of people out there who like green, well super green actually.

#6279 24 days ago
Quoted from wolfemaaan:

Does anybody think a pinball game can be bad (besides Ghostbusters)
If this game was in your local arcade today would you not play it? Of course you would which means it’s good.
When I walk into anyplace and there’s a pinball machine, I head right over to it. And if it ends up being a Ghostbusters, I head right back out the door

I would throw a coin in, like I do on every new pin. The next coin is a different story, it comes from how enjoyable the first one was.

#6289 23 days ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

OMG!!! Pinside calls Stern everything imaginable every minute.

Oh come on. You cant be serious in making this comment.

13
#6297 23 days ago
Quoted from clempo:

He said Stern's business model is weak. He said they have high fixed costs and they might have a hard time adapting to the next economic downturn especially with increased competition. Can you really ship 3 cornerstones, 1 vault and 1 boutique machine per year during a recession? He needs to polish his message but he may have a point. Only the future will tell.

I wouldn’t call 750k$ a month to release an unfinished prototype, that looks like nothing but another pinball, a low fixed costs.

The guy has 0 experience in pinball and a company that’s barely anywhere, how can he not be laughed at for making this comment ?

#6345 23 days ago
Quoted from zombieyeti:

That said - it's fantastic to see Robert sh*tting on all the effort (and drama therein) of so many people in pinball that actually have made games you can buy and play today. Classy stuff. Best of luck.

Exactly !

#6358 23 days ago
Quoted from luvthatapex2:

A few messages back:
Deeproot has 21 games in design. 13 are 50% and the rest are 15%.
So it appears RAZA was the only one complete enough to get public play, so thats the one they brought. Maybe by March two more will be ready and maybe AIW with be one of them. Lots of maybes.

Since RAZA doesn’t show any sign of being built with some common or reusable components I don’t see the point of developing 21 games in parallel.

The market isn’t wide enough to release this many games without getting them to compete with each other.

And unless they have 1000 people in a factory ready to bulld in parallel there isn’t much point in having them ready to shoot.

#6435 23 days ago
Quoted from wrb1977:

Do you honestly believe that Pinsiders are deeproot’s or any other pinball company’s largest potential customer base???

62.000 pinsiders even if there's a lot of inactive accounts, most likely a lot of operators here, a big portion of serial buyers, I would say treating Pinside well can have a significant impact on a pinball company.
Then there is google and with the numbers of pages and word count that Pinside has on each brand, the link often shows up on first page.

#6447 23 days ago
Quoted from wrb1977:

Of the 62,000 registered Pinsiders I believe the number of “regulars” is a very small percentage of that. Stern alone is making approximately 30,000 new pins a year so I do believe Pinsiders are not as significant as many on here believe they are.

It takes money to be a Stern, when you start from scratch using some loud leverage is a good way to take off without putting millions in marketing.

So wether determining or not, going against Pinside is a dumb business move.

I don’t even think Robert decided to ignore Pinside, he just totally took it the wrong way and slammed himself.

#6558 22 days ago
Quoted from silen7ce:

I may be in the minority here but I'm actually really looking forward to seeing how this pans out into a complete game...

I honestly wish them success and hope they release some good games, I just won’t be the one to buy them.

#6726 17 days ago
Quoted from DakotaMike:

Thanks for linking this Nadine. Best video I've seen to date. High resolution, you can hear some of the machine audio, see the display, and it has a good player on the pin. If Deeproot had just done a video like this alongside the prototype unveiling, it would have quelled a lot of the negative speculation.

That video is the best I’ve seen so fae. But I’m still not excited about that game. The looooooong ramp is long, the geometry needs some tuning, I dont see much to shoot and the multiball looks dead.

#6730 17 days ago
Quoted from razorsedge:

Looks like plenty of good shots from what I was watching. Did we see the same video?
I seem to agree more with Jeff, playing it. I think the shots and the game look good.

I’m not saying everyone should hate it, or like it. I just don’t like what I see. But I havent played it so who knows.

#6787 14 days ago
Quoted from pinlink:

THE FLIPPER POWER WAS TURNED DOWN. Not sure how many times it needs to be repeated.

That ramp goes up then turns then goes up again. The ball seemed to go at a decent speed.

And if they get bashed because the power was turned down then they missed their demo.

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