Alice in Wonderland
Zidware Pinball USA, 2013
Celts
Haggis, 2021
Magic Girl
Zidware Pinball USA, 2017
Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland
Zidware Pinball USA, 2012
Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland (Arcade Edition)
Deeproot, 2020
Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland (Xtra Edition)
Deeproot, 2020You're currently viewing posts by Pinsider Zablon.
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Quoted from CrazyLevi:Nobody wants to wear that Shit. It’s why 3D TV flopped.
I’m not surprised at all that not a single person I know is into VR.
I know lots, including myself. Yes, it has its drawbacks, but it also has its fans. I mean, come on, Pinball was dead too according to the populous and currently even though it isn't cheap it is still cheaper than pinball. Oh and PSVR is a joke and shouldn't even be called VR.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:That's a terrible analogy, as I don't think anybody has invested tens of billions of dollars in pinball lately.
People aren't spending that kind of money to turn VR into a niche hobby "that has its fans" that most people don't even realize still exists.
All the commercials I've seen (or haven't seen? They don't seem to be running them on NFL games this year) feature loads of happy families, old ladies, kids, all with these dorky headsets on giggling and rolling around on the couch, joining in on the hilarity and techno wonder as a family, shocked and stupified at the dramatically changed world they live in. I think we can all admit that hasn't happened yet en masse, nor does it appear to be on the horizon, immediate nor otherwise.
That sounds like old man talking. Just saying. The #1 complaint isn't the visors, it is the DPI and the tether, both of which are being worked on. I doubt having a headset on is really ever going to go anywhere until some tech comes along that allows you to just wear some form of contacts. The VR community is way larger than the pinball community. VR was brought into this conversation as a failed tech -- I'm just pointing out that it isn't failed at all, but it fits because pinball will die before VR does - because it will continue to improve and get cheaper. Pinball will still be big, bulky, and expensive. I happen to enjoy both anyway.
Quoted from SadSack:No. the only way people can use it is by themselves. The VR interfaces preclude simultaneous interaction with the R/W and since it's either/or, people choose real world interaction for convenience, comfort and casual conversation. I hardly see people even listening to music anymore if it's not some loner kid with no friends. People escape from media rather than immerse themselves in it these days.
What? So many people walking around with earbuds in everywhere I go or their noses buried in their phones.
I will say this - if a person here hasn't actually tried VR. I mean really tried it - then you really have no comment on the tech, you're just hating. There's nothing to hate about it, it is just another medium of entertainment / interaction. It will continue to improve over time. The problem right now is people are limited in their scope of how to use it and the hardware requirements don't scale real well to make it more realistic.
Quoted from benheck:VR is soooooo 2013. Seriously folks, it's done. Talking about the wonders of it today is like those people who audibly gasp when the 3D kicks in at the movie theater.
Now I'd agree VR is the best way to make a "virtual" pin. You could just have the first foot or so of a pin, grab onto the flippers and rest is simulated. But we don't really want that, do we?
Nope. People want big bulky collectibles so their basement looks like a bar to remind them of when they were single. It's the secret (not so secret?) reason Heigheway's modular system would never take off.
Remember this is a hobby where people pay a $17,000 premium for different decals on a wooden box.
Oddly, I have a virtual pin, and I know people have taken steps to make those 'VR' and of course there's the PC pinball studios, but I have no interest in that aspect of VR. I don't see any of that as a replacement for a real pin - but then you are also on a board of pinball enthusiasts. I know lots of people who love PC pinball and virtual VR pinball cabinets because I've been involved in that scene as well. It is niche. On this I agree.
I would assume you have a bit better pulse on where VR is going than myself - but I disagree about your thought of VR being dead. I can understand if you don't like it - it has it's many downsides to what it truly could be. I can even understand if that is because the key players have stepped back, but I think what a lot of people don't talk about is there are so many holdouts waiting for 'gen2'. who want better quality and cheaper. Who knows what or if that will even be.
Anyway - probably not the right thread to go to deep into this discussion..
Quoted from CrazyLevi:My mom ain't wearing no dorky visor and she as shit isn't gonna stuff some electro-contact lens in her eyes just so she can roll around the couch and laugh like those dumb ads on TV.
I also won't be doing that.
Congrats?
Quoted from Bublehead:benheck, you say VR is dead, but how many are willing to give up hope on a Holo-deck experience so easily? When the two technologies finally converge, the one which currently exists, and the one which is so far advanced it makes VR look like bone knives and bearskins, humans will flock to it, no?
You said it better I think. I'm not looking at VR as it is at this moment. VR will continue to evolve, maybe slowly, but it has come to a point where people see that it IS possible. I think it is far from dead.
Quoted from yancy:You guys just can't wait for virtual sex, huh?
You say that like it's a bad thing! No fuss, no muss, no feelings, no stds, no law suits 30 years later when you are running for office! 
Quoted from CrazyLevi:I really doubt that.
You think unsolicited dick pics are bad?!
Well... "i" dont.. But the restraining orders say otherwise.
Quoted from flynnibus:Well if you pre-paid for ZW game.. You agreed to purchase a product from a non-existent company... that promised to do it after they got orders to build stuff. You invested in a promise of a future deliverable from a clearly non-existent company with no history. I think that's fair to challenge the claim of 'agreed to purchase a product from a company'. Agreed to purchase something as complex as a pinball machine... from a single mad scientist.
Maybe invested in a dream...
I think people are misusing 'investing'. They are crowdfunding. Completely different.
Quoted from flynnibus:Here's a simple way to look at it...
Which came first - your order, or the actual company and product to fulfill your order?
We're not talking the strict definition - but labeling that captures the reality of the situation. Ordering from JPOP was not the same as ordering from Amazon, or even your local department store promising delivery after payment. "ordering a product" is just people clinging onto a strict definition to distance themselves from the consequences of their choices.
They were pre-purchasing a product that didn't exist, hoping that with enough people doing it, it would be made. That is crowdfunding. Investing is completely different in that it doesn't stop at 'getting a product' (which actually is not the goal or promised to begin with).
Quoted from Roostking:And you are wrong as well. This was never advertised as a crowdfunding deal, or an oinvestment. It was advertised as"You send us money, we send you a game when it's produced."
That, my friend, is a purchase.
Apparently you've never been part of a no show crowdfunding deal. Same thing. The pitch is only until the funding is over. You only 'aren't purchasing' if the actual funding fails. If it succeeds, you purchased, and then you 'hope' you get your item. It is exactly this. It is just wordplay and it doesn't matter how it was pitched. Money exchanged, and then it's a waiting game of if you get your item or not. Regardless what you want to call it, the primary point is, this was not at all investing. Either way, it sucks balls and people who do it should be ordered to maid service to everyone they screw for a year each.
Quoted from Roostking:Point me I the direction of any screenshot, post, text, email etc etc where Zidware proclaimed this was a crowdfunding effort and might not happen?
Hint, it doesn't exist and to this day, he will probably tell you that it could "still" happen.
One thing you do have right, I have never crowdfunded. I would never send a penny to someone who hopes to make said product. That's just goofy lol.
I think you were typing when I was editing, but I addressed this, and smart man(?) 
I made the mistake one time...never again.
Quoted from rubberducks:What about it could have been great? The layout didn't work at all, mechs were all broken or missing, it had all sorts of weird parts (like the bizarre cabinet), and Zombie Yeti's artwork was nothing like as good as his latter stuff has been -JPop was 'directing' and it was his first experience with pinball.
Did the 'finish/fix' part not come through?
Quoted from rubberducks:So the whole thing was a pile of crap, and theme was just a bad amalgamation of ToM & CV, but it 'could be great' ... makes sense.
Sorry, I'll let you get back to your echo chamber.
Quoted from flynnibus:Says the guy praising magic girl... the biggest fail of how to design pins in the modern era.
Followed closely by others being suggested. Not sure I see your point, but not really interested in trying since you didn't try to see mine.
Quoted from screaminr:The screen looks alright and will probably work well for this game but if down the road they get movie titles I don't think it will work so well , a big translate is good when is turned off but I want it to be awesome when it's turned on . I don't get why people have such a hard time looking up , you have so many opportunities to look up , when you shoot an orbit, shoot a ramp , lock a ball , ect . Most of the time the call outs tell you what to do anyway .
Peoples opinions differ. I do not think copy/pasting movie videos on a pinball machine is ground breaking or necessary by any stretch of the imagination...in fact I think it lacks imagination. Telling people to look away from the ball??? No. Just no.
So is it possible that all the 'games' they say they have in process are all unfinished older ideas that they are completing? Thus why they claim they can get them out quickly? They aren't starting from scratch on anything maybe...
Quoted from bwill:You might want to check your math. Amazon had its first profitable quarter in 2001.
Gross profit in Q3 2019 was $28.679B
You are correct, I was being tongue in cheek regarding how much they pay in taxes and fancy accounting that goes along with it.
Quoted from Methos:Tax liability and cash flow are two completely different things.
What fancy accounting goes with it?
oh come the f on... 
Quoted from Richthofen:This is false. And even when Amazon didn't make a profit years ago, they were pretty close to profitable even when losing money. They basically plowed every free dollar into R&D to make AWS and other products that are huge margin, highly profitable enterprises. That's radically different than Deeproot, who is burning a ton of cash and not yet selling anything.
[quoted image]
Also, your comment doesn't explain WHY amazon didn't make a profit for a while... Because they were loss-leading in selling regular goods to build a monopolistic position in the e-commerce space. The problem with pinball is the total addressable market of sales is small. It's estimated Stern's revenues were ~$30 million last year. That's just revenues. While the collectible pinball market has grown, it's not growing 50% or 100% per year. Deeproot has spent at least 10 million dollars and not yet ramped up manufacturing. assuming they spend another 10 million to build an assembly line, hire assemblers, and order parts for mass production, they have spent 20 million (which is investor money and for all intents and purposes is debt that has to be paid back). So they owe 20 million and let's say they put out the greatest pinball machine on earth and manage to capture 50% of Stern's market in year 1. That's 15 million in revenues, and assuming a 40% margin, that's six million in profits. So it would take them probably 4 years to break even. That is of course ignoring any dividends or coupons they have to pay back to their investors during that time. A back-to-zero super optimistic scenario takes 4 years. Assuming no mistakes. That just seems like a really risky business plan and requires a lot to go right.
The numbers don't add up to me. And comparing deeproot, who has to make physical pinball machines, to Amazon, who is mostly a software company with a bunch of warehouses, doesn't make sense. The total addressable e-commerce market is essentially a function of the total sales volume of all commerce, which is probably trillions. So yeah, investors gave Bezos a lot of rope because his company sold almost everything. But deeproot's investors have invested ten million to capture a market of what, 50 million in total pinball machine sales across all manufacturers? They're spending an absurd amount of money to capture a tiny market.
It was a bad joke. A few of you try to make too much out of nothing.
Quoted from Yelobird:Just curious. So does everyone want a better quality game offering or simply a lower price option? While my guess is all will say both seems like everyone is hung up on a cheaper price game only option over a more fun shooter change of product.
Competition tends to drive prices lower while at the same time driving innovative ways to make things cheaper while upping quality. At least, that is how it is supposed to work. I think we all agree that pinball while having a great comeback is still a very niche area of the market. I think the majority of pinside represents the home market (along with operators) who actually buy a machine, not the people who just go to locations and put quarters in. A person putting quarters in does not care how much a machine costs, they only care about how fun it is to play. One can argue the same for home buyers, but that is an even smaller slice of the population. Most home buyers want them cheaper and better.
Quoted from Yelobird:Really? Seems the exact opposite to me. When Stern was basically solo the pricing was virtually flat. Now with 5-10 new players the pricing is in no way headed Down.
Agreed, however I think there are particulars of the market at play here. Once saturation hits (whenever that actually happens) something will break. We are still seeing absurd demand, even used prices aren't going down.
Quoted from CLEllison:I feel like Jpop always seems to do something annoying with the shooter lane. If this is his "game signature" I guess he'll end up ruining AIW for me as well. :/
I've been debating on buying a MMR SE or Royale and have been holding out to see some real proof of AIW.
I highly suspect (and hope I'm wrong) that the only news that's going to pop on the release is RAZA and MG finished products. They've taken way too long on those two titles .... I just can't see how they'd be able to progress on the others.
I actually like them...it's different than the feed to the top stuff.
I like what I see. I like that they are making some changes to things that have been 'this way' forever. I think RAZA itself and gameplay wise looks no worse than any number of games released in the last 5 years. I think the low end model is decently priced for what you get. I think DR as a company has a lot to prove before people are going to jump behind them. Hope all goes well and I see one of these out in the wild sometime.
We can always use another pinball manufacturer.
Quoted from Mr68:What warranty option would that be? Last I heard buyers are signing a blanket indemnity contract.
You can 'buy' a warranty.
Quoted from Yelobird:I'm a Vegas kind of guy. Can't bet on the Whole but if you want to lay a wager on my purchase investment feel free to shoot me a PM. I feel very confident in my purchase and Receipt of said purchase. I can speculate/assume just like anyone else. Glass half full, let me know.
LOL. Yeah, I think they will get some games out, but not sure about all of them. Crossing fingers they do as I like what I see. My main concern is they don't seem to have really changed their gameplan much from the last time. I see something like Heighway happening at some point - but what do I know.
I already have all my money tied up waiting on a R&M and an Alien (which..really could go the same way).
I think that's where everyone is. Some people jumped in, some are just sitting on the sidelines with popcorn watching the show. I will say the number of games being released/teased in the last 3 years is crazy unexpected. Niche hobby or not, it's pretty cool to see it going strong to where one has to actually choose which games to buy or not buy because...too many good ones.
Quoted from DS_Nadine:Spooky, with Rick & Morty.
Spooky had a pretty strong track record and following and as far as I know, hadn't screwed anyone out of money
Quoted from frolic:There was a past interview with Robert saying one of his biggest challenges was hiring people to work in San Antonio.
I'm reminded of the stories of when American Pinball started and they brought in Joe Balcer, and how it benefited that he knew so many people in Chicago that he could call on.
Well with everyone vacating CA to San Antonio it shouldn't be an issue much longer.
Quoted from Haymaker:Yes, a sequel probably 8 people want. We get it, Diner is a fun game. So is BK and BK2K and people have been talking about wanting a 3rd black knight game forever and look how well that did. At least RAZA has a fun whimsical look/theme so it can appeal to even casuals somewhat. Food truck is about as good of an idea as Punny Factory and would probably sell marginally better. Its not even Designed by Mark Ritchie so who cares if its Diner 2
Design/Gameplay > Theme.
B3K is an interesting example. People still love the first 2. People don't like the new one. (Haven't played it, so I can't say why that is but it isn't because of theme).
Quoted from UnholySpectacle:Food Truck could lead to some interesting gameplay ideas, plus you can utilize the pinbar but it really needs to be rebranded with a more interesting name. I’m all for unlicensed titles as long as they are done well.
Would I buy Food Truck? Probably not. I love the B movie theme of RAZA more than a concept that sounds(as Ben said) like a mobile game.
Salmonella MULLLTIIIBALLLL!
Quick hit the toilet targets!
Quoted from Haymaker:Thats mostly untrue. Theme by and large is what sells a game. I don't know why people still have trouble believing this simple fact. Of course, a game can catch on after a while because of its great gameplay but often by that time its too late. See examples: Dialed in, JJP POTC, most AP games, the list goes on. The time when a game like Diner could do well has been gone for a long long long time now.
Dialed In is far from a failure, but the way I worded it wasn't clear. I was using B3K to counter your point. People LOVE the BK games. Those same people (for the most part) didn't like B3K. While yes, theme may be the trigger for people to pay attention, if the gameplay sucks, it's still going to suck regardless of theme. I think Munsters is a good example of this, and even GoTG. Both of those games in my opinion (one theme I love, one game I could care less bout), they both are horrible players (IMO of course). The resale prices reflect this.
Remember, there's a difference between throwing thousands at a machine, or throwing quarters in as you walk by.
The skepticism is well founded. If you pre-ordered, I don't know why you are in here if you just want an eaco chamber of positivity. Hopes and dreams and all that. At this point, it's all speculation, even for those who put money down. The vast majority want to see a good ending to this, but it's going to take some actual action of games getting out before many change their minds.
Quoted from Boat:Has anyone here bought something on Kickstarter? Did it arrive when they initially planned? This is what I worry about.
I was one of the suckers for the coolest cooler back in the day. If you google you can read about that whole fiasco.
Never again.
The idea of 'food truck' doesn't bother me. I like non licensed themes as generally they seem to be more imaginative with less constraints. I will say the name is lacking. They need to rebrand it into a bit more exciting name similar to RAZA.
Quoted from happyclan:Great summary. But Food Truck is seriously the next game? I really thought this was like Punchy the Clown being joked around in the CGC thread. Say it ain't so. I'd like to see Magic Girl first. Goonies sounds cool too. The theme song will hold up nicely.
I swear at one point we saw a food truck proto? Or was that something else? If not, maybe food truck is just the 'code name'.
Quoted from benheck:Wait. Are they only making the RAZAs ordered last month or is it just the XTRA version that is limited?
Thought the standard would be an ongoing thing.
Rando user "This thing about Dr doesn't make sense..."
Me "It's because JPOP is in control"
Rando user "No he's not. Now. Back to why this doesn't make sense..."
It sounds like that was the only orders, for both versions. They did mention if they have spare parts to build a few extra they will sell those at some astronomical price, but they were not making more at the lower price.
Quoted from TreyBo69:It’d kinda pointless. They share an office complex with other business.
Payday loans?
Quoted from SLCpunk2113:CGC is certainly taking their sweet ass time but they are also a huge game manufacturer that pinball isn’t their only focus. There is no danger of if but when and what.
And they've proven themselves multiple times.
Quoted from ViperVS:We already have cupholders.
Well I guess if you wanna pee in your drink that's your choice 
Quoted from Tranquilize:This could go a strange direction. They are going to put a ton of money into manufacturing this machine, so IF they get them out the door, it will be WOZ situation but way crazier. Those machines will, in fact, sell at a likely the deepest discount we've ever seen. So in the short term, they might actually be a winning gamble for the buyers. When DR realize that they can't bleed and more money to manufacture game #2, we'll see the Magic Girl effect take over. There will be no support or parts for the game, particularly the pinbar™, so the game value might tank . . . or not. Will the community react the same way again and again to the Magic Girl effect?
Well the price didn't tank on TBL or Alien...so I think as long as it 'sort of' works and more than 5 people get one, they will be safe.
MG is a unique situation because that game is a work of art...that doesn't work. RAZA isn't nearly as engaging on that front, so if the gameplay sucks...you might be right.
Quoted from Roostking:Make sure the gloves are made in China. End to end supplier of all things covid!
Why hasn't China started making knock off pinball games yet??
You know, gems like:
The Arengers: Infinity Stone
AR's n' Tulips
Spaceman
Help I'm Trapped in a Child Labor Camp
Quoted from benheck:he ball spends a lot of time bouncing around and doing nothing.
This is like 90% of the games I play.
Tired of breaking your legs when you are moving your machine and it falls on you? Tired of needing two, three, sometimes TEN people to help you move your pinball machine in and out of your house for dinner parties? Introducing, PinBalloons(patent pending). Coming soon!
Quoted from ultimategameroom:Possibly this?[quoted image]
Eh, I don't think it is THAT per se. I think it is more that you have a group of people who are great at ideas and hype, and just plain have no idea how to execute in a timely manner. Those they approach to help them tell them, there's no way it can be done, and they don't want to hear that.
I deal with people like this all the time.
Quoted from pbwizard14:I waited 6 years for Wayne to remake MM and he never did. Fortunately, he did refund me my $2,500 deposit when I finally pulled the plug. The thing I do not understand about this is what others have already said about the numbers sold. The only way to make money on a machine is to sell as many as you can. Everything it takes to make a complete game is expensive and to make the effort profitable, you have to sell a lot of it. RAZA with less than 200 sales and a limited time to purchase it does not make sense to me. Small runs is what kills companies...look at JPOP. Even if he made the machines, he would have lost his behind on them. How can Deeproot make any kind of spare parts for support when only 160 machines are in the wild? They could be stuck with inventory for that machine FOREVER...dead money. I hope RM changes his mind about production and price for those who want one going forward if they do build more.
I seriously think they were trying to create FOMO and....it might have backfired.
Quoted from denoument:Anybody out there really interested to see what cool "ground breaking mech" Barry Oursler is planning to unveil in his Black Hole inspired game? I know I am. I hope this company does well so I get to see whatever he is planning.
I'm thinking of all the cool ways someone could open a large hole in the playfield to reveal a lower playfield.
A singularity mech?
singularity (resized).JPGQuoted from CrazyLevi:The good news is The Who - which I’m sure they’ve totally locked down an authentic, legal license for - also is supposed to have a “groundbreaking mech!”
Can’t wait for all these new mechs to rock the pinball world. Exciting stuff!
They meant, The Hu.
Quoted from BC_Gambit:Who needs actual games to play when you have INNOVATION?
Correction. PICTURES of INNOVATION.
as if it's a secret to tell people why their money still hasn't produced anything...sorry but that is classic scam. The less it is talked about the more opportunity they have to draw out the scam. Scammers don't like their scams out in the open for people to collaborate on and figure it out.
"shh don't tell anyone".
A more honest approach is 'we realized we way overesitmated our abilities and it's going to take awhile', but most companies don't like to be that honest.
Edited: misread
Quoted from Mr68:How much will the pre-order be?
You guys are missing the most important question. Will it have a pinbar?!
Quoted from zr11990:Not on pic of one game?
The new pinball word of the day is SECRET! I'd like to say this just applies to DR, but it does not.
Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:The fact that you can’t get that thing through a standard door is DeepRoot in a nut shell.
Um...you know a pinball machine by itself barely gets thru the door right? There's practically no way a padded box with a pinball machine is getting in a normal door.
Quoted from transprtr4u:Did you buy one ?
Point is nobody should care , unless they are owed a game,or they they preordered.
But...you are too here..telling other people what they should talk about. Do YOU have one on order?
Quoted from transprtr4u:No sir ... but not taking crap about them, not hoping they fail, not trying to figure out their corporate finances , not wishing them to go out of business.
Hoping the people that have invested get their games. Would like to see another company making games.
Only time will tell.
I mean, let's be real. If you've been around here for any amount of time....all the manufacturers get trashed. There's some bad history here which is much of it. Some would say it's well deserved until shown otherwise, and they've had...7+ years to show them otherwise.
Quoted from benheck:Why are they including a lockbar when every one of these games is going into a rich dude's basement set on freeplay?
These will make great gun and topper safes!
Quoted from CrazyLevi:If this were any other company I would agree. But It's Deep Root so I'm expecting some innovation here - a lock bar with a screen that warns would-be invaders that the cops are on the way is my best bet.
In family use it can be modified to let the parents' know the kids are trying to break in to RAZA in search of weed or porn.
What this pinball needs is Viper.
Quoted from wcbrandes:Comon Levi, Kim, ice is one of the greats here. He is never mean and often hilarious and fun to read. These threads are informative but most importantly entertaining, and without him, I believe, we lost a great dude and lots of entertainment!
never mean? you guys don't read enough posts. Or they've been moderated before you see them. He's nice until you disagree with him, then he's a complete ass. Not the kind of person I would want around.
Quoted from Makakka:same to you
Hey now, I'm not snippy until someone gets snippy with me. And regardless of the disagreement, I've never blocked anyone. Must be because I don't end my bullshit with 'lol' and a cowboy emoji.
Quoted from Bublehead:Whats truly funny is they will have that ship moved before we see a single machine delivered by deeproot...
Well of course, that's why there aren't any machines! They are on that stuck ship! (I shouldn't say that though, my luck that's where the Aliens are).
Quoted from benheck:Let's see how close I get:
"The COVID-19 pandemic has been a challenging time for all of us. This is especially true in the world of manufacturing which had been experiencing massive delays thanks to a one-two punch of demand and backlog.
We're not immune to this either, and it's even harder as a new manufacturer without mature pipelines in place. We're still finalizing some sourcing for RAZA, but in the meantime we've been spooling up our Quad Manufacturing line. Once all parts are in house we expect to complete all RAZA orders within 17 minutes.
HEY YOU GUYS! "
-Robert Mueller
It would be hilarious if they copied/pasted that as the email.
Quoted from NevadaNutJob:I still don’t get why Goonies is a license you’d want . Zero interest
That's just how it goes. Every game there is going to be someone who has zero interest, regardless of gameplay.
Quoted from colonel_caverne:Wow new game here! Amazing
Looks nice. Some great innovations too.
Now how it plays? How many ramps? What are the main features? Feels like williams pins or last stern regarding rules?
Thanks
It's called VaporPin (tm).
Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:Lol:
Distributors
deeproot Pinball takes pride in directly serving the needs of our customers. Our main preference is serving the customer before, during, and after sale. In some circumstances, US distributors in the pinball industry may have existing customers they would like to assist in the sales process. We appreciate and want to support those external relationships, without detracting from our direct customer relationships.
FOR RAZA (Prior to January 1, 2021)
US or International Distributors who have an approved distribution agreement may earn a commission for referring a customer to deeproot Pinball. They may also be eligible to buy and then resell RAZA to a third party at market price with a one-time transfer of warranty and support rights. For more information, contact us below.
FUTURE DISTRIBUTION
After January 1, 2021, we want to focus on limited distribution for distributors that commit to selling or buying a minimum number of deeproot machines a year. Distribution rights of our products require the following four criteria to qualify:
-A registered legal entity, full-time staff, and a defined geographical territory
-Prior pinball sales experience
-History of marketing, along with a marketing budget
-A minimum commitment of sales per contract year
-Terms of the distribution, including compensation, will be negotiated every contract year based on your business, geographic territory, exchange rates, and complexity of sales.
If I was a distro..I've be quickly throwing that in the trash bin until they've actually proven themselves with a few games.
Quoted from Mbecker:profit model? They were never making $ on these machines, I would say it was always a loss. Robert essentially stated that from the get-go in December, twere things THAT different in December? That was still a reality then as much as now, I believe? And that's when they estimated their build timeframe... so there's pretty much no excuse there.
Fair tone on the letter though, nothing too surprising except the possibility of refunds. If they still weren't gunning for more titles and have $ to pursue them, I wouldnt' expect them to care much about further demolishing their reputation so that's good for anyone looking to get a future game from DR. ...for now.
I'm not sure really. Keep in mind that in the US there was no issue until Feb. While certain countries were getting hit hard, it would really depend on where the vendors for said parts were located.
Quoted from benheck:Speaking of round off they will need a few extra games anyway for the ones that are damaged/destroyed in shipping.
It's often faster to build a new game than to fix a bad one.
No, these are pIndestructable (tm)!
Quoted from seenev:I'd never seen him before but I was expecting some expert explanation and insight into what's going on. Instead he just read the statement and acted like everyone's an idiot by explaining the obvious, and not even very well. Of course he starts the video by asking for subs. This is just filler trying to amp up YouTube stats.
If you've watched any amount of pinball podcasts, this is the norm.
I stopped bothering.
Quoted from andre060:How about RealityCheck.com instead?
That works, but I think mine has more of a ring to it
Quoted from TreyBo69:Then it really reaches Skit-B/Heighway levels of blaming people for causing a run on the bank as if that was the only reason why those endeavors failed.
If the refunds cause them to fold, they never had a chance to begin
It never made sense to ask for preorder money, especially in a FOMO driven limited sales window with minimal marketing
Someone could make a great post mortem on this company
The crazy part of this is, if DR somehow pulls through, that's awesome, great etc.
but if they don't, as many of us suspect, it won't be the last time. Some other company will come around and people will still give them money. All it takes is the right words and theme.
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:This thread is starting to make me understand the GameStop situation. I can not believe there are people still interested. I hope none of said interested people run businesses. Or a least ones that provide for your family!
You gotta remember, some of these people have tons of money to burn so this is nothing to them. At this point it's like gambling. You might be out a little cash, or you might get something ultra rare. Toss up.
Quoted from seenev:Deeproot should just scrape together whatever money they have to hire a lobbyist to bribe someone in congress to sneak a bailout into the next multitrillion dollar spending bill that they will pass without reading.
Well if these guys are anything like many here claim they are...I would assume they got millions in PPP(?) already....gee wonder where that money went.
Quoted from pinlink:Man. That "owners" thread blows my mind. These guys really think they are getting a game, and are actually EXCITED about the updates...serisously.
and this guy is PUMPED for the delays, now he has more time to work on games...
This time will be different!!
Why did you leave out the part where he says this thread is why DR might fail?
If they were building machines at this point, even with parts missing, they would be posting pics of their games on the line to appease people's anxiety. If you were bragging about your awesome manufacturing abilities wouldn't you? That isn't happening.
This seems dead in the water if it was ever real at all. Beginning to agree with those that said this was all some scheme to sell 'innovation' to others, which didn't happen.
Quoted from RobT:For those who preordered a RAZA from Deeproot, what objective evidence do they have to believe that they are going to get a game?
I hope there is more evidence than "the parking lot is full of cars."
People talk about how much money Deeproot has and that this made them "legit" somehow, and all this cash would allow them to make pins first then sell them when ready to ship, with no pre-order money needed. Then they asked for pre-order money.
The only reason I've seen is 'I believe!'. The same reason for all the other things wrong with the world.
Quoted from QuickSilverShelby:I like your political incorrectness and your accurate and old school use of the word "retarded".
It's "mentally challenged" to the rest of us sheep.
QSS
To quote a comedian, it doesn't matter what word you use, once it is the 'mainstream' it will be co-opted into insults. Best to just let it go. In a few years 'mentally challenged' will be the insult that you can no longer say.
Pretty sure this is just one of the supply chain issues everyone is dealing with. It's only going to get worse.
https://news.yahoo.com/us-own-supply-chain-crisis-130012367.html
Quoted from Mr68:Sorry guys but this ain't no love story. There are other clues in the artwork if you will look such as the diver being pushed and weighted down with a large anchor by a mermaid. Consider that piece of art is at the very bottom of the playfield where the ball drains and the game ends.
How's that for an artistic metaphor.
But here ya go. I've attached the 2 official Bally flyers for the game. No fish romance there.
Also, here's the game play explanation I found.
""Somewhere off the coast of Bermuda, three vacationers are enjoying a day scuba diving and exploring the undersea wonders of a tropical beach. After one of the divers stays submerged longer than expected, his friend goes underwater to check up on him — only to quickly fall into trouble from a school of deadly mermaids! While their female companion watches helplessly from above, the player must enter the murky depths and release the captive balls from the Cave Trap and the Lagoon. Spear the drop targets to advance the Blue and Green Bonuses, then keep your cool and knock down the 1-2-3 targets in order to collect the 5x Multiplier before your oxygen runs out...""
Link: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Pinball/Fathom
So I guess it could be argued this isn't a murder per say, but at the very least it's an attempted murder .....depending on how well you play the game.
Sorry to spoil the male fantasy.
[quoted image][quoted image]
So the remake shoulda been called Murderin' Mermaids
Quoted from Bublehead:I had a distant second cousin who died by the belt... can you imagine his poor wife opening up the garage door to find him swinging from the rafters, porn laid out in a circle around him, pants around his knees, and his flag pole at full mast. I was 15 close to 16 and we are on the way to the funeral and my mom looked over the back of the front seat at all of us three siblings and says, "you might as well hear this from me, your cousin died of autoerotic asphyxiation" and went on about what it was and how he was found by his wife. Color me gobsmacked.
We had a kid in middle school that died that way - this was in the late 80's. We had to go to all these 'sex and how not to kill yourself' things after that.
Quoted from Haymaker:I guess nobody should ever do interviews then, just type out a huge novel on pinside and then continue typing huge novels answering further questions. Sorry everyone that has a podcast, no reason to ever interview anyone ever again just have them come on pinside.
I'd be okay with that. Podcasters talk to much.
Quoted from Yelobird:Ahhh, I give you way more credit then that! I am Certain the DR hate tribe will come up with WAY more posts then that!!!
lol
Quoted from frolic:Is there a single driving force that sells pins beyond art? Well, I suppose a license. License first, then art, then "is it fun?".
These days that is exactly right. Otherwise, there would be no pre-orders for home use. I suppose over many years you can kind of tell what will be fun and won't be fun, but honestly no one really knows until they actually play it.
Quoted from Bublehead:I don't think art precludes theme or theme precludes license... what makes a game fun is the "play" you get for a buck. A game can have a great license, artwork, and theme, but if it plays like crap, what fun is that?
Tell the constantly sold out pre-orders that. We can say all we want about play, but 1000's of machines sell sight unseen every other month it seems. Look at Mando? Oh wait, we can't.
I always found this interesting. Was this because arcades were on the way out at that time and home use was...well just a few of us? Or were ops genuinely not interested in it? I never even saw a CV until many years later and I loved it immediately.
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:Anyone else surprised by today's Stern reveal? Figured after last week's teaser the next announcement would be of a six-month delay due to ul certification challenges
Yeah, but Stern doesn't have PinOVATION! (tm)
Quoted from benheck:If I were Robert I'd be more worried about my investors / SEC than some drunken Irish asshole.
Wait...you're Irish?
Quoted from guitarded:It is Officially Mid-May.
No no, tomorrow is officially mid-May, and + some hours if you count that there are 31 days. The question is, how many days/months past that until we hear something?
Quoted from Roostking:Update from pre-order thread.
If dr goes under, its our fault!
I guess I know where to get volunteers for my next grift!
Quoted from Haymaker:Wahhhh all these shortages of workers and parts are hurting everyone, except all the other pinball companies... lmfao
I have no doubt theres challenges right now, but when literally every other pin company big or small is still able to pump out games, thats a big ol red flag
I feel like all these things were...uh...not an issue if the machines were ready to ship back in January. So, he lied up front. There is nothing more to take from that email. He didn't have parts, employees, or even any machines ready to be built the month they were even supposed to ship. How was the U/L cert holding up any of that? Meanwhile lots of other pinball companies (and new pinball companies) have made new machines and shipped in that time.
I feel bad for the people waiting on games, but if they aren't asking for a refund now, it's on them.
I already know how part of this is going to go. The die hards are going to hang on assuming there will be even less of them in the world therefore more rare and worth *cough* more.
But hey! He held his word about a mid May update, that...really says nothing.
Quoted from TreyBo69:I mean that writing was on the wall when they asked for the deposits to begin with. Not even enough faith in their own product to make a few dozen sample units of a game they thought they'd sell thousands of at one point. Put millions into starting the studio and needed a preorder campaign to raise a couple hundred grand more. dafuq?
They said they'd put the money in a separate bank account. Course they have said a lot of things. No talk about that nominal interest this time around though...
Well you know if they put all that pre order money in BTC for the last year and a half...they be rich now.
Quoted from Mr68:As I recall some did so they could jump the line.
I'm here too much..I'm getting deja vu that I had this exact discussion 3 months ago.
Quoted from JodyG:Let's say UL listing is the holdup. Why can't you be putting cabinets together a while? Why can't you be working on subassembles? And why can't you share a single picture of anything whatsoever? Robert already said that they were only waiting on a few parts a couple updates ago. Do they even have any parts on hand?
The notion that hiring people is too hard right now is BS. According to his PPP loan info, he has enough people on hand to get some machines built. Pinball is easy, right? Anyone can do the assembly, that's why you only pay them $11/hr, right?
My guess is....they haven't ordered a single part. Where are the playfields? Those should already have been ready right?
Quoted from Mbecker:If I had preordered and we’re at July and rm says no pinbar, I’d expect a discount at least? Highly unlikely, but seems reasonable given first the BS of shipping in Feb when they weren’t ready at all, and then dropping parts out of th build (regardless of how desired or undesired it was).
Hahahhahaha.
Quoted from RCA1:Founder, president, and spokesman for company: We're making progress, next update in a few weeks.
Reaction: Argle Bargle! All is lost! Bail out of this mess!
Un-named, anonymous, unconfirmed source: Parts are way backordered. It's gonna be months.
Reaction: Hurray! Proof that all is well!
How did we get to this point?
You are witnessing 2 different camps reacting to 2 different things.
Quoted from pookycade:It find it ironic that I ordered an AT games Legends Pinball on Wednesday and it shipped today. This is a game that has been on permanent back order since it first debuted in January, a crappy $800 virtual pin. Only in our little insulated world do we put a deposit down, be told it’s gonna ship 2 months later and then when it looks like it’s in fact going to be delayed a year or more ( if it ships at all) go to mat to defend the manufacturer that can’t get its act together. If looking for the definition of Fan Boy one need look no further than the RAZA thread.
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Fanboy
It's not even fanboyism. It's what is becoming even more common these days in that people do not want to admit when they are wrong and instead double down just to 'stick it' to the haters. Additionally, none of those people are hanging on because they really really want to play the game. They are hanging on because they think they are going to get a super rare pin that they can 'brag about' and/or flip. It's just gambling at this point. Maybe they will get it, maybe they won't. If they only have ~$600 wrapped up in it and aren't hurting for money, it's not really that big of a deal overall to the individual. To many here buying NiB pinball machines that is chump change and they spend more than that on a weekend out.
Quoted from elZilcho:Just a few rounds over ther heads to keep em down on the ground and aware. No dozing off !
no harm intended.
I feel like this would be pinball manufacturing in Russia...or China.
Quoted from benheck:Hey if Robert wants to waste even more money building the damn things (probably at a loss for every unit) then I guess that's a boon for the buyers.
But it's a hard strategy to comprehend. As some have said, must be fueled purely by ego.
Well..good or bad, there's something to be said for following through. It would probably make these the most expensive pinball machines ever built.
Quoted from Mr68:Welcome to the club.
[quoted image]
Someone should start a "Why Ice blocked me" thread.
Quoted from jawjaw:Most "normal" people cannot afford a pin let alone a $6000-$10000 nib pin.
Semantics. Pinball isn't the only expensive hobby. There are 1000's of expensive hobbies out there...or just people who spend thousands on smoking/alcohol etc. Has way more to do with priorities of what people are willing to spend money on.
Quoted from jawjaw:No idea what you are on about. Point was we are all rich. Just because you only spend $8000 a year on expensive hobbies doesn't make you any different than a "dumb" rich guy spending 5x that.
Yes it does. What you see around here by a few is this dismissal of anyone questioning prices as if someone having 10k is the same as someone having 100k, which was the point of your post and the post you were quoting. The richer you are the less you care if you are being taken advantage of when it comes to cost. The 'majority' of pinball collectors are not uber rich people and the uber rich people fail to grasp the concept of saving $$ where you can - especially if they were never poor. Then they play the 'be glad you can afford it' card, as if that somehow negates anything. It's a difference in mentality that as the years pass, you can tell some people simply do not give a damn about other people.
Your 'most normal' people point was what I was on about. Because the majority of people spend the bulk of their money on SOMETHING, it just might not be pinball. Trying to pull in the very poor is just trying to make people feel guilty and if you (or others) are that concerned about others ability to pay for necessities there are plenty of ways to contribute to that.
Quoted from RobT:That's an awfully wide brush you are painting with.
Yeah it is, same as his comment.
Quoted from jawjaw:Exactly. I never met anyone that loves pissing away money and doesn't care if they get ripped off.
You'd never know it with the apologists around here.
The best part is the people telling others not to tell them how to spend their money, as they tell people if they don't like the prices get out of the hobby. People can pretend that everyone is 'rich', but there is a clear gap with income between people (Not an issue, just an observation) which indeed does impact how they approach the hobby.
Quoted from Rarehero:Shrink wrapped turds? Is this a hobby?
Cuban Tootsie Rolls. The best Tootsie Rolls ever.
If they want to sell out home users before they've even considered playing them, licensed themes are the way to go. Few people are going to buy a non-licensed theme sight unseen. As we've seen repeatedly, the game can be complete shite with non-existent code, but sell out on theme alone.
Quoted from Mr68:I wish I had the talent to home brew a game as I think, Dead Hooker, could be something amazing.
Please expand....is this a reanimated hooker or a 10-82 hooker?
Quoted from Jokerman:Fucking shame on you all for this Dead Hooker bullshit, necrophilia, stuffed in a trash can etc. Pinside rags on a guy for calling out playfield issues but carry on with this shit. Get some fucking perspective. Shame on you.
We're sorry, didn't realize you collected dead hookers.
Also, please don't curse. Shame on you. Get some perspective.
Quoted from Bruce_Pickle:Someone can't take a joke...
but like...I mean...it's like...right there...
Quoted from Mr68:I promise no pre-order ever on Dead Hooker.
Let's hope jokerman never plays GTA.
Quoted from Jokerman:Whatevs.
Pickle…I grew up in QLD and had 25 yrs in Oz including uni in BrisVegas.
The rest…Jesus…do you not get why necrophilia, shoving bodies into trunks etc, killing prostitutes, is fucking not a jok or pinside appropriate topic?
You apparently haven't perused the Pinside theme wishlists.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:To be fair deeproot is kind of like reverse necrophilia
Dead company that screws you
badoom ching!
Quoted from jellikit:[quoted image]
I just realized with all this Diner talk...didn't Diner have a Karen that asked to speak to the manager??
Quoted from seenev:Hey guys... You can win a RAZA playfield and build your own game before deeproot ever builds one.
LOL...scary thing is there are people on this forum with enough spare parts and the know how to do just that...minus the code.
Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:And they’re HammerTested goddammit!
pssshhh... not impressed until they are throwing them off roofs and there's no dimpling!
Quoted from TreyBo69:I’ll sum up Ice’s position
Bear on Haggis = they don’t owe him a game.
Bull on deeproot = they owe him a game.
I mean, I don't usually agree with him, but this makes sense. We can't all be Ice though and throw money around willy nilly. If anything, he's consistent, and I'm sure he has nothing against Haggis.
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:So I guess in a way we all should be welcome in the pre-order thread
government subsidized pinball....you might be onto something.
Quoted from Makakka:Im no expert in U.S. economy and politics but afaik this aint taxpayer money its money out of thin air from nobodys pocket nobody ever worked for. The money printing went parabolic last year (so maybe will inflation).
eh, maybe for now, but I guarantee we'll be paying for it for decades.
Quoted from Bublehead:On pinside that equates to:
R:eally tear into them
E:stablish your superiority
S:end them packing
P:ut them in their place
E:mbarrass them continuously
C:ut out their heart and eat it for breakfast
T:ell them you were just kidding
You forgot the silent "B": block them.
Quoted from RobT:Actually, a lack of evidence doesn't say much of anything.
Lack of evidence is the issue with people believing conspiracy theories . Sorry if I didn't get that across.
Quoted from Makakka:Halloween/Ultraman sells poorly compared to RM. Low traffic in the first 15 minute fomotime (RM was a hot mess). So the time for RM to update has come.
really hope you aren't trying to spin that they have sold less than RAZA..because you are painfully very very wrong if so, and it's only been a little over an hour.
Quoted from TreyBo69:deeproot should just fart out their no-update update while everyone else is busy giving Spooky high fives and millions of dollars
Do you people not know how grifts work? Con men play the long game. From what we've seen, they've been playing with multi-millions for at least 2-3 years.
Quoted from TreyBo69:If by playing with multi-millions you mean burning it at the alter of purple neon, then sure.
Maybe they should retheme RAZA as Killer Klowns from Outer Space. They can keep the kooky carnival theme, the alien stuff, and just toss the zombie crap.
Either way when they do their next sales window (lol) they should maybe try to actual advertise the game? Just randomly posting on their Facebook page with maybe 1,000 followers isn't going to cut it. I wonder how many Fang Club members joined because they saw John Carpenter tweeting and various blogs pick up the news of a Halloween pin. Who is going to hype Food Truck, Guy Fieri?
And certainly don't limit it to three weeks or whatever. AMH took over a year to sell those 150 units because it was an original theme from a relatively unknown company.
That's exactly what I mean. You don't think he's been living the high life? Even if they close up shop, he's already made out like a bandit. I think people keep looking at this as someone actually TRYING to make a pinball company. I think at this point it is just a front.
Quoted from TreyBo69:It's just amusing that they thought they needed 5 days to explain/market a pinball machine.
Steve Jobs showed off the iPhone in under two hours and that was an actual inflection point in consumer technology. 5 days of deeproot? Sounds like a half-hour long video split into five chunks.
I think the original intent was 1 of 5 release reveals each day....very lofty goal for your first outing. Most people thought this was impossible...and apparently it was.
Quoted from DakotaMike:Trouble is, he quit! He gave up being a dr correspondent a few months ago.
Well it's not like he was doing much
Quoted from benheck:Robert wanted his games to have "Disney Quality Animations"
Thus he hires a bunch of ex-Avalanche Studios people (makers of Disney Infinity game) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disney_Infinity
That's why the "animation studio" was located where it was.
Well I can't disagree with the thought. It is an area that needs improvement from majority of companies.
Quoted from Roostking:Its still pinball. Not pinamations. Most $$$ and focus should be on gameplay, not backboard animations.
I'm not disputing that, but if you are going to half ass what is a major part of the presentation, you are doing it wrong. May as well go back to DMD or alphanumeric, which would be absolutely fine with me in 99% of games. Instead, we get people whining about smaller LCD's. On that same note, what is the point of a backbox anymore? You could put what is there in the cabinet, shielded, on rubber, and do away with the backbox completely. Throw a small display in similar to Circus Voltaire. You aren't looking and admiring the backglass when you are playing. No point wasting resources on it. Same goes with cabinet art, butter cabs, and well..playfield art. Who needs it? ...see where that line of thinking goes?
Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:Did you just ask for the Pinbar?
Haha, not really. I was just pushing the point that resources on art is a big thing in pinball. Yes, it would look weird without a backbox because it has been there for so long it's a habit. Additionally, as some pointed out...if you looked over in a lineup against a wall...you wouldn't actually see anything appealing to catch your interest. However, none of that negates that a backbox is actually an antiquated part of pinball that does NOTHING for gameplay. That being said..if I'm buying it for home use...does that still matter?
It is interesting about the certification though.
Disclaimer: I've been watching a bunch of Tastebuds. Debating over stupid things that you don't really believe.
Quoted from Lounge:I think for the player this is true. But for the viewer - the person watching someone play - the LCD is an unavoidable evolution. The DMD was for the player. The LCD is for all the strap hangers wondering if they want to drop a buck to play the game.
Who cares about the 'viewers'? I've never understood this mentality. I hate people watching me, and I certainly hate watching tournament players, most boring thing ever. Trap. Shoot. Repeat. May as well be watching golf.
Quoted from Lounge:Any operator with a routed machine that wants to make money.
That has never made any difference in if I put a quarter in or not. Interestingly what I do notice is that people don't like to wait while their friends play, so they play a different game.
Quoted from Lounge:You’re right.
I'm going to get this framed and hang it above my games to admire when people are playing them. Better than any LCD animation. 
Next update:
"Due to all these damn government handouts we can't get people to build these machines in the factory. While this is bad, there's a good side. As a proud pre-order RAZA owner, you now get a chance to make history while making your very own RAZA! You are a very special group who's stuck with us no matter what the haters say. Please contact us to schedule your trip to build your own RAZA!
Note: No discounts. Any fees or loss of income incurred by taking this offer are not covered by DR. Please arrange shipping. You can purchase a PinPod for free +$1000 shipping. If you do not take offer, your game may not be built."
Quoted from greatwichjohn:I would dump the pinbar. Go traditional bar like everyone else. Why not connect your own device & lay it on top of the glass for access. Seems like too many hurtles to think inside the box! They should of hired me remotely for build advice years ago. Someone who fixes pinball, & builds product. Not doing anything at the moment since I retired & wound up my pinball glass & playfield production. So if interested contact me. I have a very diverse knowledge base from going to different build & equipment trades. Also like electronics & wiring.
I was in contact years ago when I was still doing my 6 day a week, City Public Pool Operator position. Not able to move to Texas since my wife has her parents here. My brother is in Austin, Texas. So if Deep Root wants me there for 2 week stints at their expense that is a option also.
You are making assumptions that the Pinbar is the holdup....do we have any actual evidence of that being the case?
Quoted from iceman44:There is never a worker shortage if you are willing and able to pay much higher than normal wages but I think you might be right with that stupid ad.
They are paying somebody that parks their cars in the parking lot at DR to do something. Lol
Car lot drive by manana with pics.
I've spent many many years working with unsuccessful musicians. You know what I've found to be the common thread? They all like to get together and talk about how great they are and how they are going to 'do this or that', but what they never do...is actually work on music. If they do, it's minimal. They basically never get anything done.
Quoted from TreyBo69:Hold the fudge up… Robert doesn’t know how to run a factory?!?
Says a lot about Robert that he could set up a largish well paying animation studio (well when the checks came) and also thinks he can run a manufacturing company predicated on technical labor for peanuts.
Pinball is so easy small children can do it for pennies a day!
Quoted from guitarded:Can't think of a single Pinhead I know who would want a Goonies machine. Can't understand the thought that one would be anything but a dud as far as sales goes.
It would sell more than Ultraman. It has been brought up a number of times as a dream theme on the very same threads you are posting in. Just because you don't think it would be a hit, doesn't mean it isn't.
I've played someones virtual version of the theme and it was pretty entertaining. As always it really just comes down to the ideas and what can be used.
Now...that's if any other vendor did it. I have no idea from DR.
Quoted from guitarded:Would it sell more than Scooby Doo?
Well, I don't think it would even scratch the ST sales numbers. And I don't think Stern was pleased with their sales on those things.
It certainly wasn't because of the theme. Loved the theme, hated the execution.
Quoted from Rarehero:Ready? I'll try to be concise, but it's hard with this mess.
-Jpop takes money to build ~20 Magic Girls (2011)
-Jpop realizes that amount of money makes no sense, so starts a pyramid scheme. Takes money for ~100 RAZAs to pay for MG. Then takes money for Alice In Wonderland to pay for MG.
-Fails.
-Convinces some Chicago locals to start American Pinball, with an unplayable Houdini mockup.
-Fails, AP salvages the project with other people and becomes a pinball company.
-After failing again & owing hundreds of games to people - for some reason RM thinks it's a good idea to hire Jpop to head up his new pinball company, Derp Poop.
-RM brags about how pinball is easy and he's going to make more games than anyone with higher quality & cheaper prices. Claims they won't do pre-orders.
-RM wastes money hiring tons and tons of people to design games & create art and sound....ignores manufacturing, just as Jpop's past failures did.
-Years go by, they have nothing to show for it.
-2020, they show a proto of RAZA and invite "pinball media", they all hate it.
-Time time time time time....
-They try FOMO pre-orders, claim they'll only make the amount of games they sell within a limited time window, barely sell any.
-Now they have people's money, still don't have functioning factory for manufacture.
-So now people who paid for this game like 10 years ago, and a few new pre-orderers are stuck waiting...
-Waiting waiting waiting....
That's where the story is right now.
I feel like you left out 'bragged about going through 750k a month'. Seemed like a major milestone.
Quoted from JodyG:Yelobird just blocks people who have a different world view from him. Hard to look at reality when you create your own echo chamber.
That's more of an Ice thing...
Gathering around talking about building machines is not the same as building pinball machines. Car count doesn't matter
If they still have something to hide at this point, they are just hiding that they aren't building machines.
Quoted from Rarehero:Rick & Morty, bruh!!!!
Yeah agreed, however I think the style of humor on this game isn't for everyone. Certainly is for me
Quoted from okgrak:Did you guys know Robert Mueller graduated a semester early from law school in 2000? It's in his bio on the website.
He seems like a fun guy to have a beer with.
There are people out there that are fun to hang with but you just don't want to do business with them.
Quoted from seenev:I've gone from wanting deeproot to fail to wanting them to succeed. This thread is so toxic. Everyone's just dying for an update so they can laugh at misfortune. I hope they pull it off. I hope the preorder people get their games. I hope the second game does better. I hope jjp and Stern have more competition (as if those companies don't have a checkered history).
It seems like RM is waiting to update for something to come in so he can post some progress. I'm sure everyone here will find new, creative ways to hate, but I'm going to hope for the best. I don't have a stake in it, but I would just like to see way less hate around here. This thread is toxic even for pinside.
Well, first...most of us aren't wanting them to fail, we just are realistic. Not much else to do but poke fun at the situation until something develops. Expect the worst, be less surprised when it happens. Being cheerful and optimistic is a deluded attitude and is why everyone is always so crazy and need medicated when things don't go their way. You can see it in the way they post. I can think of one poster in particular. They are the first to crack when shit hits the fan, even though their loud and over the top presentation of their opinions win over people. It's a trait people are drawn to for some crazy reason. The reality is they are fragile and its posturing to convince themselves. They hate people who are down to earth and tell them how life really works. There's a difference between being positive and being blindly optimistic. We are posting here out of boredom. It's the internet, but more and more people expect an echo chamber to tell them how right they are so they feel better about themselves.
Zablon, MD.
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:People keep saying posts are out of boredom, but I find the theory positing and digging around for breadcrumbs interesting.
There's a genre of hobby called alternate reality games where up to thousands of people from around the internet get together to follow the development of strange and mysterious stories that unfold across different platforms and try to figure out what's going on.
I've never participated in an ARG, but this feels like one. Except that deeproot is putatively a real business and the alternate reality is just what goes on inside John and Robert's heads.
I say boredom, and it's just a generalization meaning most people don't hold a whole lot of stock in the thread or what is being said, just mingling and waiting to see the outcome and having a bit of fun with it in the meantime. Save for the people with down payments, and people with history with JP and RM, not many people have any dog in this race.
Quoted from Roostking:That is pathetic. TPains biggest hit was Im on a Boat, and that aint original ha
Fuck I love that song. In my flippy floppies.
Quoted from TreyBo69:When they do fart out some games I wonder how long till the inevitable maintenance threads.
Wouldn’t be surprised if they’re hiring green engineers fresh out of school to design all the components. Does anyone seriously think they’ve been running lots of testing rigs to check on the reliability? To say nothing of the low wages for the assemblers and any fabrication theyre doing in house.
Not trying to be negative and pessimistic, but come on. Every new manufacturer’s first offering and first few units of a new game has some various level of jank to them. And deeproot is trying A LOT of new complicated things, like the lift system, their own pinball controller, and the PinBar™
Maybe they are skipping the middle man and going straight to Star Trek. They have a prototype, now to build the replicator.
Quoted from NoQuarters:Something is better than nothing for sure. But even if they would deliver RAZA's who would order from this company in the future after all this ? I think the goose is cooked either way.
As Ben says - closure is needed. Someway, somehow. Would be nice if Zidware refugees got something.
Have you seen this hobby? Even if they haven't shipped RAZA and they make a good enough marketing video of a completely new game that - let's say a theme everyone is chomping at the bit for - there'd be suckers.
Quoted from SunKing:No - remember they're here in Texas. Doubt we will shut down much of anything again unless things get a lot worse. All hospitals in a region need to show that over 15% of all patients are for Covid - that's the (reasonable IMHO) threshold for enacting tighter restrictions here.
I understand as a whole, but not even in an environment? They can't run the floor if they have 2-3 people out...but even so...my point was, if they are struggling looking for more excuses lol.
Quoted from valgalder:I wish I could find local corn for $5 for 12
We get it for $4 woot.
I've seen this game play out before.
The next update:
"To be able to raise money for the pre-order backers, we must unfortunately sell what few games we have made on Amazon for a premium and use that money to make the pre-orders. This is an unfortunately turn of events, but the only possible solution."
Yes, this actually happened, and very few still got their items.
Quoted from Haymaker:Lol you talking about the "coolest"?
Yes, I was part of that shitshow.
Does it even have to end? There are people who already said they'd ride it to the end just to 'stick it to this thread' and 'chance at a rare game'. They can milk this for years by just putting out promises here and there, and never actually show anything, just for the memes.
Quoted from pinballrockstar:https://m.soundcloud.com/kanedapinball/deep-thoughts-by-deeproot-part-1
Oh…
Oh wow..
I didn’t know it was this bad.
I thought you guys were being negative nancy over here 24/7.
But to tell you the truth i am shocked.
I know it’s a montage but still.
Never heard RM speak before up until now since i rarely come here.
I check in for news sometimes since i am actually in on a deeproot machine.
But this is really bad.
Is that guy actually okay?
I have to listen again man…wow.
And what is that 5 days of deeproot stuff about??
Cuz this sounds very fucking strange to me.
He better starts paying me money btw?
This pin is overdue[quoted image]
reminded me of a certain person half the country is enamored with. Same characteristics.
Quoted from JodyG:Nah, Robert said they are bored with quad manufacturing, and octo manufacturing will change the world.
It's all coming together now...
fuctopus (resized).JPGQuoted from blueberryjohnson:To confirm: August is technically after the July 4th holiday?
Depends, there was of course August 2020. Maybe they are taking a time machine back in time to deliver the machines before they were up for pre-order.
PinHole (tm).
Quoted from TreyBo69:What's so hard to follow about a bustling amusement park at an old nuclear reactor site that was built on ancient Native American burial grounds being the crash site of alien invaders who use xenon gas to raise an army of the dead while a different alien warrior princess and an alien human cyborg team up with the player to help save the earth? Also Dracula
Wow. This sounds like it would make a great theme for a pinball machine. Someone get on it.
Quoted from Lounge:Guess those cars out front were lawyers.
Probably repo men.
Quoted from frolic:It's disgusting. Who can defend THAT?
Well, I mean, in case you haven't been tracking the multiple threads, it is becoming increasingly apparent that most people on this site will find a way to defend anything as long as they may be getting something out of it and it didn't directly impact them.
I don't think AR per se, digital has done well, but I think overall pinball is always going to be a niche thing unless you go full blown gambling with them.
The whole resurgence is mostly timing sync'd with nostalgia age and money.
Well he's not wrong. A normal box doesn't fit through a standard door either - or even a wider door. On maybe a plus side for those that just let NiB games sit in their warehouse for 30 years it will be less likely to be affected by the environment.
Quoted from Mr68:I'm thinking of Stern in particular but that's news to me. I've never had a problem.
Hmm...maybe I have Hobbit doors? lol. But I've never tried a Stern box.
Quoted from rosh:on our machines, code updates get downloaded, copied to a USB stick, you open the coin door, find the USB extension cable, stick the USB stick in. On screen messages tells you if it found game code and when it is done updating. Also automatically dumps logs, audits and current settings to the stick (which it will do whether there was code on the stick or not).
Sorry for taking the thread off topic.
Seems right on topic to me.
Quoted from ufotofu:I really don't understand how this specific type of person (narcissistic, incompetent, blonde, fat, blowhard criminal) can inspire such fanatical devotion. Until the house of cards fell down, the Deeproot threads were chock full of morons defending Mueller and every single one of his missteps, broken promises, and outright lies. Now that the truth (which is worse than pretty much anyone predicted) is out, near radio silence- from the people who were cheerleaders for this scam and lent credibility to a blatantly criminal enterprise.
Does anyone know if a separate lawsuit has been filed by any of the RAZA preorder folks? If I had given thousands of dollars to a guy who's now arguing to the SEC that he should be able to use stolen money to pay for insurance on his Lexus, I'd be tripping over myself to try and claw it back.
The more time goes by, the more I agree with Bill Burr's joke that we should fix environmental problems by randomly sinking cruise ships. "I think it's a good mix of people to get rid of."
and you don't see the correlation to what this country has been going thru for years? Or throughout history. One thing con men are good at is sales pitches and saying what people want to hear. They know what their strengths are, and then they are usually pretty good redirection 'but look at that squirrel' when ppl start asking questions. People are gullible. It doesn't matter what their history shows, it's all about what they say now, even as the house is falling down around them. People will believe the lies, because they want to for that little chance of being right / feeling lofty over others.
Quoted from ArcadeRaid:There should be a Deeproot themed pinball machine where your score starts at 60 million and you try to blow your points as fast as possible. Let's brainstorm. What modes would you include?
Seems like it would just have a bare playfield, no flippers and each time the ball drains you loose 20million points.
Quoted from toyotaboy:dam youre right.. i swear it used to degrade my videos when i uploaded. cant be a mobile thing because i have 1080p videos i know i recorded on my phone. why would anyone restrict a video to 480p?
It's a temp thing. Still does it (at least on free accounts). It is low res until it's finished their processing.
Quoted from Inside:Wow so he’s going for a chapter 7 bankruptcy which is essentially terminal for a business. A court appointed bankruptcy trustee gets possession of all the assets and then sells them off. Any proceeds go immediately to paying off creditors. Once everything is sold off then any unresolved debts are considered closed out and everyone is SOL. This might be everyone’s chance to get their hands on some RAZAs lol. The chapter 7 can also be bundled with personal debts so you get to wipe out your personal and business debts in one swoop.
Yeah, remember that a certain VIP said declaring bankruptcy repeatedly is just good business sense. Nothing like screwing over your fellow countrymen in the name of $$
Quoted from Rarehero:Prison.
They should have plenty of time and resources to build them there!
It's just a temporary set back. I'm sure it will all work out.
So, things like this are generally long and drawn out. He's a lawyer of some sort right? Wonder if he even has the money to get a lawyer or if he'll be defending himself.
Quoted from Rarehero:Robert’s future? This guy “only” stole $32 mil from old people for his Ponzi. 3 life sentences.
https://www.newsandguts.com/man-who-targeted-elderly-christians-with-ponzi-scheme-sentenced-to-multiple-life-sentences/
I didn't even think they gave life sentences for anything less than murder.
Also..
“I don’t trust anybody anymore, except for God and my family,” said Susan Pippi, one of Gallagher’s victims.
So..she didn't learn anything.
Quoted from ForceFlow:How do they expect you to provide proof of nothing?
"I completely affirm the fact that I received absolutely nothing in exchange for the money I paid to deeproot. No tracking number was ever issued and nothing was ever delivered."
...and the pending securities fraud lawsuit will further bring this to light.
Granted, you probably don't want it to be tied to that legal battle that could take years.
Quoted from benheck:Napkin math, 40 or so employees over 3 years, plus rent... 750k burn/month seems plausible... Still gets you nowhere near $60m. More like 30.
Where did the rest go? Paying off old investors? (Ponzi scheme)
You mean creative accounting!
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:Bobby Big Boy gets $5,821.74 per month for three months, broken down as follows:
$1,810 for child support
$1,542.46 for health insurance
$249.28 for other insurance
$2,220 for reasonable living expenses (including but not limited to groceries, utilities, etc.)
He also gets $20,000 from now until February 13, 2022 for his criminal defense
[quoted image]
WHy are they giving him anything, isn't it coming out of all the scammed money? I assume he has to pay it back after the judgement. This doesn't sound like a guy who will 'learn his lesson' so they need to make it as painful as possible.
Also, are you an investigative reporter? Haha.
Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:Except for the fact that people sit in jail (for literally years in some cases) before their trial, and sometimes without being charged at all.
Seems unlikely anyone would be allowed to use their suspected stolen money. Those funds should be separated and not allowed to be touched.
While this may seem shut and dry, there are other instances, where that has been done (suspected drug money) wrongly, and it took years and other money to prove otherwise. The justice system isn't exactly perfect.
Quoted from benheck:Augmented Reality could be a killer training tool, I think there's a big future for that (example, a pair of glasses that overlays information when you pick up a certain tool)
This is something that started even 4 years ago when Vive/Oculus came out (was it microsofts AR glasses?), but it just...hasn't seemed to take off as much as I thought it would - even now. I agree that I think it could be huge, especially with the move to more remote work - for however long that lasts.
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Kellogg, IA