(Topic ID: 203700)

deeproot Pinball thread

By pin2d

3 years ago

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84 key posts have been marked in this topic, showing the first 10 items.

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Post #111 Firsthand information from the Magic Girl programmer. Posted by applejuice (3 years ago)

Post #3026 RAZA promotional video Posted by PinMonk (2 years ago)

Post #5771 First RAZA gameplay video Posted by ZMeny (1 year ago)

Post #5874 RAZA video with more audible game sounds Posted by zaphX (1 year ago)

Post #5926 First RAZA video with successful ramp completion Posted by zaphX (1 year ago)

Post #5967 Another RAZA gameplay video Posted by flynnibus (1 year ago)

Post #6050 Closeup pictures of key playfield features Posted by Potatoloco (1 year ago)

Post #6133 Video of display animations Posted by LateCenturyMods (1 year ago)

Post #6329 Summary of Robert Mueller's interview Posted by jeffspinballpalace (1 year ago)

Post #6724 RAZA Gameplay video Posted by DS_Nadine (1 year ago)

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#932 3 years ago

He's using a lot of hyperbole about revolutionizing pinball and totally separating himself from what traditional manufacturers do. They also have a lot of game designers, sound designers and a full digital team in Utah but no real discussion about hardcore manufacturing details.

I sincerely hope that this isn't some kind of VR pinball revolution. The technology may be ready for that but I'm not.

2 weeks later
#1034 3 years ago

Hiring JPop comes with a lot of baggage. If they offer a serious olive branch to JPops victims, it would go a long way towards putting that mess behind them. If they offer nothing then the deeproot bashing will follow them for a long time...

#1070 3 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

As for the lawyers. I get why some went that direction and I applaud them for standing on principal.
It doesn’t surprise me this is where we are at with Jpop
Counter sue. Drag it out and lawyers win again
Just like all the wasted legal fees DR spent trying to cut a deal
If you chose not to settle then you expect to get your $$ back out of Jpop, not DR after the fact

You just said what I've been thinking but couldn't verbalise. To be fair though, DRs offer might make a pretty good legal settlement to make this whole ugly ordeal go away...

#1100 3 years ago


#1137 3 years ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

I am hoping DR's Houdini becomes Copperfield upon release. I hate always having to ask the manufactures name when just talking about a game.

Houdini would be an odd choice. American Houdini is already out. Big risk to have a machine compared to something already established, and pretty good. And for the fans of the Houdini theme, do they expect them to buy 2 expensive machines?

#1165 3 years ago

Finally, some news out of deeproot!

#1181 3 years ago
Quoted from Grg:

I remember that comment and that's why I found it strange when (Robert on latest podcast) mentioned levitating balls on Magic Girl could dimple the playfield. If a sledgehammer won't dimple it, then why would a pinball from a few inches high?
From memory in 2014 he started downloading virtual pinball on his phone, after this he purchased his first pinball. I'm still thinking it will be more lcd screen than playfield as it sounds like his passion is more virtual pinball than the real deal.

VR pinball. There's a reason deeproot is heavy on designers/programmers and light on manufacturing.

#1195 3 years ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

A piece of titanium the size of a playfield would weigh about 80 pounds and only cost around $200k.

Don't give Kapow any ideas...

1 week later
#1228 3 years ago

Even at 5 machines released at $4k each you would need a MUCH larger pool of potential pinball buyers with all the games out there already. I hope it happens but pinball already had an arms race in the mid 90s and we all know how that worked out.

#1310 3 years ago

I play virtual pinball when I go to shows and it is getting better and better, but it is still far from the real pinball experience. Miles from the real pinball experience. Fact is though, in 10 years virtual pinball may be basically indistinguishable from the real thing with a lot more upside. It may even be sooner than that. No doubt there will be a lot of old men railing about "real pinball" but those were the same guys who complained about automatic transmissions, smartphones and digital music. They eventually convert or just get marginalized, screaming bs in a corner somewhere.

The truth about our hobby is that it will never be much more than a niche interest until machines are less expensive and maintenance free - virtual pinball will eventually solve those problems. For now though, I prefer the real thing but I'm open minded and excited about the future.

#1335 3 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

Kids used to play Cowboys and Indians outside with toy pistols and sticks. Now they all play Call of Duty.
The technology of simulation can create better than real life experiences. It's just hard to imagine with pinball because the technology we use is a f'ing joke compared to the games industry.

Ben gets it. Check out the evolution of Madden from 1988 until 2018. Pinball has made similar advancements...

#1341 3 years ago
Quoted from Brijam:

Look, you're not going to find someone who loves video games more than me.
But 'better than real life'? That's just plain silly. It's not a question of resolution or approximating 3D. Pinball is visceral. It's a question of sensations. Until we have direct neural input, virtual pinball will suck.
No simulation is better than life. I assure you that no simulation of flying even remotely approaches the thrill of real flight. No car simulator will approach the thrill of driving my Tesla. And no virtual pinball will even remotely approach the visceral experience that is pinball.

Serious question. What is "visceral" about pinball that you don't think can be emulated with future technology?

#1349 3 years ago
Quoted from Brijam:

Honestly, an actual ball rolling around on a playfield. That will /never/ be emulated on a flat screen. You need parallax, depth perception.
We can hope for magical non-existent tech like holograms with extremely high resolution, high framerates, and very wide fields of view, but I've seen the latest iterations of holographic tech from the Hololens to holographic TV startups, and honestly the tech stinks.
VR goggles won't work because nobody will wear them in a bar/arcade nor will any operator take the risks of damage/theft. And VR today is still pretty lousy. The problem is that there will /always/ be latency between moving your head and drawing to the screen - that's reality. That latency makes a /lot/ of people sick.
And it can't be purely goggle-based because you still have to figure out how to deliver the haptics - the feeling of hitting the flipper buttons, the pulsing feeling of the solenoids through a 400 pound cabinet. And oh yeah, nudging. So you have to have a cabinet.
Let me ask /you/ a serious question: why do we need to replace actual pinballs rolling on a table?

Hey, what do I know? Today alone I listened to an 8 track tape, an LP and a 78 record played on my hand cranked Gramophone. I also asked Alexa to play a song on my Echo+. They were all visceral in their own ways but the LPs and 8 tracks added an element of nostalgia. In any event, I enjoyed them all and look forward to whatever the future holds for music.

I guess the same is for pinball, when the tech gets good enough virtual pinball could be a real game changer. Try to see, not where the tech is right now (which almost all of us hate and find useless) but where it could possibly go: 3d 16k displays that are the exact same dimensions of a current machine (with all the little physical/audible physical idiosyncrasies we all love), the ability to play games with limitless possibilities (like an actual TRex running across the playfield), never a need to make a repair, hundreds of games on one machine, the ability to play in real time against anyone in the world, Pinburgh 118 with 16,000 players. I'm not talking about next year but 10, 20, 30 years from now?

A hundred+ years ago there were men who refused to ever buy a car saying a horse was the real way to travel, now there are men who say that driverless cars are foolish. You honestly think that people born in a hundred years will be in anything but self driving vehicles? To answer your question, no, we don't need or want to replace actual pinballs rolling on a table. I'm just saying that you should have an open mind, at some point (maybe in years or decades) there might be a reason to enjoy both.

#1354 3 years ago
Quoted from Brijam:

Screen resolution isn't the issue. We need two inputs to see in 3D - left eye, right eye. That's why you'll probably always need goggles or glasses. You'll /still/ need a cabinet.

Yes, you will still have a cabinet and all the physical feelings/sounds from a cabinet. Inside the cabinet would be an 8k (or even better) resolution screen with real time head tracking capability to simulate 3d.

Look, I get that it is hard to imagine but just look where the tech was just 10 or 20 years ago and project where it's heading, what people/companies are working on to get to simulations much more complex than a pinball machine.

It will start with young people (as it usually does) and early adopters who see a benefit in having a maintenance free single machine they can play with their friends all over the world. There will always be a place for real pinball, just as there will always be a place for EM or even prewar collectors. Nobody will ask you to give up your machine or to stop loving physical pinball.

#1357 3 years ago

The view of the spectator now? Look, I don't have all the answers for how they're going to do it. And no, I don't think it will ever fool anyone into thinking they are playing a Wms DMD machine. If that is your requirement, to have an exact duplication of what already exists then you are already too wedded to the existing experience to ever appreciate something new. And that's ok, there is seriously nothing wrong with that.

What I'm saying is that the technology will get so good that the advantages it poses (as outlined earlier) will be adopted and appreciated by a lot of people, and make the proliferation of pinball grow to more than just niche hobby.

1 month later
#1467 3 years ago
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:

Perhaps they are doing very nice VP tables. Better have multi-level transparent displays like I’ve been talking about

That's been my guess for months, based on their huge development team (in Utah?) and hardly any manufacturing discussion. And all this talk of "revolutionizing" pinball technology. And now Stern is going Oculus Rift?

I hope I'm wrong.

#1479 3 years ago

Good read. Very happy to be wrong about it being VR pinball. 80's license they just got better be BTTF.

#1513 3 years ago
Quoted from RCA1:

Article says cabinet looks conventional, but the head does not.
Some type of Pin2k-ish setup?

That would be so awesome w new technology.

2 weeks later
#1690 3 years ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

Deeproot won’t have a game to show, so the seminar will be about Deeproot and their processes. It may prove interesting, but is nothing to get excited about. Their seminar at TPF in March will be the one to watch. That’s where they bring finished games

And the stream/video from it will be picked apart like the Zapruder film.

#1803 2 years ago

Not sure why people are getting hung up on how many pinballs they are going to release. 5 at one single release date would be a record, case closed.

The real question is ".... where is the demand?"

This guy gets it. Unless there is a MAJOR influx of new hobbiests, there simply will be way more supply than demand, and that is not good for the hobby.

I've never bought a new in box game, probably never will. It's just way too much money to take an immediate loss. Add a ton of new games and that loss only increases.

1 week later
#1856 2 years ago
Quoted from Robotoes:

Why don’t they have a Facebook?

That's the 6th day of deeproot, they've created something much better than Facebook.

1 week later
#1883 2 years ago

Deeproot legal team is going to be busier than Planetary's legal team!

3 weeks later
#1911 2 years ago
Quoted from Sinistarrett:

Exactly. I cant find any solid info about any games, all I hear is rumours, speculation, hearsay.

Maybe deeproot should just announce their games now instead of at their HUGE reveal in Texas? Actually, quite nice to see dr keeping everything quiet.

Anyway, here is the list TWIP has on their site. No mention of Ourseler. I certainly Jpop only has one (failed) release.

deeproot Pinball
Fire and Brimstone | Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland | Magic Girl | Alice in Wonderland | Dennis Nordman Unlicensed | Dennis Nordman Unlicensed 2

#1933 2 years ago

I can't think of another show that suits a big reveal by deeproot other than TPF, which has become the best show out there, right in their backyard. This is very disappointing. Unless JJP surprises us, there may not be a big reveal of anything at TPF.

1 month later
#2264 2 years ago
Quoted from Drewscruis:

If I win the Jpop machine, when he comes to drop it off i'll wear nothing but a g-string and make him very uncomfortable. Picture a 300lb yeti wearing butt floss lol.

"we're wearing the same thing, let's party!"
-jpop, probably

3 weeks later
#2304 2 years ago

Maybe the reason for the delay...tbh nothing would put them on the map faster than to come out of the gate with bttf.

1 week later
#2380 2 years ago

Thing is, based on their $ burn rate, even an amazing product delivery may not keep them afloat. In my estimation the pinball hobby is definitely still growing but not at a rate fast enough to absorb 5 new titles at once, with 5+ other manufacturers also releasing titles this year.

So far, pinball growth has seemed organic and sustainable.

I hope it works!

4 weeks later
#2504 2 years ago
Quoted from Bublehead:

Unless you have endless cash...
My favorite pinball daydream has always been some well connected money man with deep pockets gets hooked on pinball, and the only way to satisfy his ravenous pinball appetite is to buy Stern, or JJP, or CGC and dump obscene ammounts of money into them and start pumping out titles and machines like back to back.
Well, right now, DR is the closest thing going to that pipe dream. I am wondering, though, does DR’s story end in success, failure, or with people behind bars?

There would be no JJP as we know it without an Angel investor (Leonard Abess) like you described.


3 weeks later
#2557 2 years ago

So quiet...Midwest Gaming is obviously out or there would have been an announcement. My guess? They got the BTTF license a few months ago and are reskinning something so that it's part of the initial release.

#2585 2 years ago

"Help, I am stuck under my pinball machine"

-top thread, November 2019

#2655 2 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:I beg to differ but I’m an open-minded guy, id love to be convinced. It certainly makes Zero sense for the pinside crowd.
“Hey who wants to come see
My rad pinball collection?”
“Who wants to come see my one game and stack of playfields?”

Levi is right. Don't discount the desire to show off a collection that rarely gets played, these things are status symbol luxury items.

And 90% of collectors can't be bothered with changing out the balls in a game or clean the glass, you expect them to switch out a playfield?

1 week later
#2728 2 years ago

Robert can you confirm the change to individual release dates as opposed to 5 at once? Not sure that was ever officially stated...

#2746 2 years ago

It's really odd they haven't made some kind of announcement/tease. With BK3 and WONKA released you would think they would try and prevent some of those sales with some kind of announcement before people make financial commitments. Silence does them no good.

#2749 2 years ago
Quoted from stevevt:

When exactly are there not new pinball machines getting to the market?

The two (by far) largest Pinball manufacturers released machines within 3 days of each other. I'd say that's a pretty big occurrence.

#2776 2 years ago


#2893 2 years ago

Not sure why people thought Python was losing his mind...


#3048 2 years ago
Quoted from zeddex:

Elon Musk says alot of things...and hey, hopefully its true! I am super skeptical though for the reasons I mentioned - he has been setting and missing deadlines for a while now on the "hey you can have your car drop off your kids and be an uber while you are at work" fantasy. I say this as an owner of a Tesla solar system, they make solid products.....just not buying it. And unlike pinball, which would just crater sales if a game were missing switch triggers a few times a game, the stakes are much much higher.

I don't know, last night I watched the SpaceX rocket take off from Houston. The booster rockets were spent and split off after about 4 minutes. 4 minutes later they landed perfectly upright in Cape Canaveral Florida at the exact same time. All done in 8 minutes! Musk is making real magic happen.

#3184 2 years ago

When you see the deeproot thread has 100+ new posts and think there must be some new news. Nope. Robert doesn't even have to chime in non sequiturs to keep this thread going...

1 week later
#3329 2 years ago
Quoted from deeproot:

I can’t believe I have to remind users here on Pinside, or listeners of podcasts, to assume anything posted (or disseminated) as fact by anyone other than me (personally) is guaranteed to be nothing more than unsubstantiated speculation. Letters went out to a few Zidware customers that said nothing more than (paraphrasing): get in the contract sent to you last year by May 31st or else your claim will be denied.
We plan to make a statement on or about June 1st regarding the Zidware claims. A statement will also be made as to the launch date of deeproot. A date we’ve spent a lot of time ensuring will be met this time.
Lastly, I agree with Kaneda that it is not fair that people are holding money back from making other purchases (pinball or otherwise) expecting us to imminently launch. We won’t be. I’ve said two things from the beginning. Pinball is easy; everything that goes into making pinball is not. We will launch when we are ready, and no sooner.
— Robert, dT

Expo it is then, booking my room now.

#3362 2 years ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

What’s the line on the races today? I want a $3 trifecta ticket on what gets delivered first. You have production schedules, right? I’ll bet Alien fully redesigned and with B/W parts followed by Deeproot Pinball #1 followed by TBL shipping to EA’s - all crossing the line by Christmas 2019. I figure if the odds are 1 in a million, $3M ought to be enough to retire. On the other hand, I can afford to lose $3 and realize I am flushing money down the toilet at the onset.

The horses so far:
1. Deeproot delivers a pinball machine
2. Alien redesigned and released by CGC
3. Stern 30th Anniversary book delivered by Paperflock
4. The Big Lebowski machines delivered to early adopters
5. Stern releases new code for Ghostbusters

...did I miss any?

2 weeks later
#3419 2 years ago
Quoted from deeproot:

We plan to make a statement on or about June 1st regarding the Zidware claims

So, within a week or so we will have more information.

#3425 2 years ago

Makes sense that TWIP would be the distribution for this information. I'm guessing Monday we will have a little bit more information than we have right now.

#3428 2 years ago

Well last time he had a pretty big write up/interview without revealing a lot of details. I'm guessing deeproot is pretty comfortable using him as their marketing arm.

#3474 2 years ago
Quoted from deeproot:

A statement will also be made as to the launch date of deeproot. A date we’ve spent a lot of time ensuring will be met this time.

Fall 2019 - Summer 2020

Way to go out on a limb with your "valuable trade secret"...

#3476 2 years ago

At least they changed their "view from the toilet" logo...

deeproot (resized).PNG
#3498 2 years ago
Quoted from deeproot:


So tone deaf. You really need to be working with a PR firm. Seriously, the things that come out of your head should not be sent directly to an open forum without some kind of 3rd party filter. You may think it's funny or maybe you're trolling but it really doesn't come off well when the head of a company (who wants our money) posts things like this. Could you imagine the negative repercussions if Amazon hired Bernie Madoff as CFO and then referred to him as "Berniebaby" while addressing the public?

You really need to reign it in. I was growing ambivalent about the JPop situation in light of what you were offering to his victims. Not any more.

#3539 2 years ago
Quoted from ZenTron:

I hear the US Gov. is considering forcing captured “enemies of the state” to read this thread as an interrogation technique.

Nobody is forcing YOU to read it.

#3669 2 years ago

No update from TWiP this week, I guess we'll have to wait to find out how the tour went.

1 week later
#3675 2 years ago

Hopefully TWIP releases their info tomorrow. Right now the Deeproot Tour info is only privy to "Insiders".

#3679 2 years ago

From the article:

"Here’s what was passed along – just a note that there is some conjecture here, but I’ll try and keep that to a minimum:

Their official/unofficial motto is: “Pinball for the masses,” trying to convey that their designs are focused on more than niche themes. This probably means that another heavy metal rock band isn’t high up on their list.

They have a strong team of experienced animators, “around 40 people” with experience at Disney (Disney Infinity was specifically mentioned), Lucasfilm, Weta, EA and others. While this talent favors the film industry, they also have people with experience in creating video games. Because of this, expect their games to have high-quality animations and artwork.

They are working on both licensed and non-licensed themes. It wasn’t indicated how many tables are in development right now.

They have hired people who are “established” in the world of pinball, covering both design and manufacturing.

One of those people is a well-known pinball designer, but they couldn’t say who at this point. UPDATE: Pinball fans have been talking about DR for a while and say that three designers have been confirmed as working on new concepts for DR – Barry Ousler, Dennis Nordman and John Popadiuk. Unsure if they meant another unannounced name or not, or if they were just being careful.

Their machines will use a combination of “traditional parts” along with new 3D printed parts. The latter could mean the toys, or it could also mean new kinds of non-traditional mechanisms.

The wait for their new games will not be “years”

They are working on trying out new ideas with audio, so that games are more accessible for new players, while still offering the depth that pro players have come to expect from a game of pinball.

My brother asked them if they would have a display on the playfield like Heighway Pinball did with Full Throttle and Alien. They said no.

One thought I had about that last point is that they could certainly employ projection mapping into the mix. I’m just waiting for a time when such tech will become mainstream in pinball, as I personally think it is the next big step (since we’ve already had RGB LEDs and HD displays serving as innovations).

While this isn’t a detailed look at a game, I think it’s a nice introduction about what to expect from this newcomer. Deeproot has people in Utah and Texas with most of the development team in Utah by what was passed along to me (which is also why they would pick this particular convention to introduce themselves at; the convention in the past was second only to the San Diego Comic Con in terms of attendance).

I have reached out to one of the team members for more info and will pass it along when there is something to discuss. Until then, what do you think about deeproot by what you’ve heard so far?"

#3694 2 years ago
Quoted from thedarkknight77:

If Deeproot kicks down the door with 4 awesome pins at once, all with great pricing, I will drop $20k without hesitation and buy them all. I think people are greatly underestimating the impact they could have.

And I will buy them one to two years later for $15k once I've played them, been assured the code is finished, all hardware issues have been worked out and determine if they provide competent after-purchase service.

#3701 2 years ago
Quoted from jorant:

Except that's not what happened. I don't make a habit out of pointing out errors in grammar/spelling etc. But, when someone is being a dick head, the fact that they cannot differentiate the most basic of words only ruins their argument. What if someone was in a public debate, and hell... he even made some good points. But, the entire time he said things like, "me tell you this," and "me think this." You're telling me that wouldn't sway your opinion on the man/his stance?

Grammar police are the worst. Yes it can be frustrating to see words spelled incorrectly but it doesn't change their message and just makes the person calling it out look petty and small. Most of us got over it a LONG time ago. You should too.

#3723 2 years ago

If any TWIP insiders want to PM or email me the story on the deeproot tour I'd be happy to post here.

1 week later
#3884 2 years ago
Quoted from Fulltilt:

[quoted image]


#3895 2 years ago


#3957 2 years ago
Quoted from JodyG:

Anyone else find it interesting that out of all the conjecture and jumping to conclusions in this thread, Robert decided to single out Ben for a pretty inane comment? Something about a seemingly simple comment from Ben cut pretty deep. Threatening to sue anyone and everyone is a pretty Andrew Heighway-esque move, and it isn't a good look for the spokesman and face of the business.

IMO Roberts posts tell me two things:

1. He doesn't think Pinside opinions are worth much so he feels free to say whatever he wants. and...
2. This is a sneak peak at how he is going to deal with customer "issues" after a sale has taken place.

#4060 2 years ago
Quoted from Fulltilt:

My first JJP experience was with the initial WOZ release. The company handled the tragic lamp board problem miraculously IMO.

JJP charged everyone $799 and told them to complete a very complicated upgrade operation on their brand new machines. The only thing "miraculous" was that it didn't result in a class action lawsuit.

1 month later
#4452 2 years ago

Today I learned: there is a moderator on Pinside who is unaware that deeproot was offering refunds. Isn't this general knowledge at this point?

1 week later
#4500 2 years ago

Sees 30 new posts, enters thread. Sees same old bs, exits thread.

1 week later
#4695 2 years ago

Robert was basically destroying his brand by coming on here and having a dialog. There is literally no way to win an argument in an open forum, and he was posting on his own without anyone advising him. Pure catastrophic posts that I will indeed miss. But his company/chances are much improved now that he has woken up and realized he is in a no-win scenario in this thread.

4 weeks later
#4998 2 years ago
Quoted from BMore-Pinball:

Yes, becuase then they have to backup the warranty with some sort of quality.
I would be happy that it would cover my years of ownership as I keep games 5 years+
Even more bonus if they make it transferable.
Either way, it's better than anything currently offered by any other mfg.

It's only as good as the person/company making the warranty. Stern has a warranty on playfields but denies there are any issues so they don't comment on it or back it up. And this is a company with a decent service reputation.

There is no history on deeproot handling complaints after purchase. All we have is Robert's "carefully worded" words. So far, nothing Robert has done or said so far makes me feel that there will be any post purchase service. He is silent now but, in the past has been very boastful and harsh to criticisms when he feels he has been wronged. Hell his last posts in this thread were threatening legal action against someone. The only thing you are probably going to get, post purchase, is buyers remorse. Hopefully things change.

4 weeks later
#5089 1 year ago

I think Robert said something like they were going to be at the Houston Expo so they could be real world tested. Seems like an odd way to reveal their first big product. I think they're banking that people are going to lose their minds over all the new tech/ideas. Unfortunately, they raised the bar so high with their promises that anything less than a total revolution (like going from EM to SS or SS to DMD) is going to be met with unfair disappointment.

"They better knock it out of the park" is the result of Robert endlessly running his mouth about what people should expect.

#5105 1 year ago
Quoted from pinballonthemark:

Deeproot has a collaborative mindset dream team of experienced designers/engineers

That's when I stopped reading...

#5170 1 year ago
Quoted from wolfemaaan:

Actually not crazy, they put the red under sole on the map. Ask any woman what high heel has a red sole and they'll tell you Louboutin. So its a brand for sure which is why they win in court. So name a Pinball MFG that is doing that design right now? Nobody. So if Stern copies it they'll be a lawsuit for sure and Stern will lose. Stern doesn't care about this stuff though, at least not to date so nobody will be copying this. On the other hand, Stern Copied JJP when they came out with an LCD's, but I'm sure JJP didn't have a patent and giving attention to Stern for making a smaller display wouldn't make sense regardless as its inferior out the gate.

True. The whole history of pinball is stealing ideas and the companies work it out over cocktails. You think any company with a tilt mechanism or scoop sends money to PPS just because Harry Williams invented them in the 30s?

2 weeks later
#5340 1 year ago

In another timeline Robert is silent through the entire process. Deeproot releases a couple of mysterious fb posts, they quietly help the Zidware victims and everyone is incredibly pumped for the release of any kind of solid information. Instead, we live in this timeline where almost the exact opposite happens.

#5367 1 year ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

I love watching you guys parse this stuff out like it’s the Rosetta Stone. Reminds me of the days when our greatest minds were tearing apart every letter of the latest “stern of the Union” to decipher if a ghostbusters code update was coming this week.

Tbh I haven't checked the SOTU thread since GB code was released.

#5401 1 year ago
Quoted from ausretrogamer:

March 25, 2020 at 8:55am = the official launch of deeproot Pinball

Perfect timing. Let's them control the launch with hand selected guests and TPF 2 days later for a reveal to the unwashed masses.

#5442 1 year ago
Quoted from valgalder:

I also like this aspect ratio for LCD, as it's similar to the re-configured AFM, MM screens which I think work perfect for pinball. Pinball really doens't need a big ass JJP sized monitor.

Exactly, the lower I have to look on a screen the better. I like this innovation.

#5460 1 year ago

Going from idea to manufacturing to delivery will have a whole new suite of challenges. Good start though!

#5526 1 year ago

A lot of these responses are the reason why Robert (wisely) doesn't post here.

#5609 1 year ago
Quoted from razorsedge:

That may be the determining factor for price point.... what is the capacity per week of these illusive production lines?
Getting 1000 orders per week is great, except if you can only make 5 per week.
If the plan is big then one could assume that hundreds per week will go out the factory door, rather than dozens per week. That obviously means several lines, and being in the same ballpark as stern.
The price point then becomes about demand and capacity I guess... the question is, what is their maximum planned production capacity. Fairly significant it sounds like.
If the factory is geared to build 500 per week, hypothetically, and demand is 100 per week.... the price point may be higher than it aught to be in order to get the Deeproot machine rolling, to gain momentum.


#5696 1 year ago

Lots of $ on the sidelines with the JJP/Stern unresolved playfield issues. Lots of people looking at their recent games pooling and chipping, and no word from either company. Timing is perfect for DR unless JJP/Stern fix their existing issues.

#6088 1 year ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

The first footage we got, even before Zach, was a link to a Facebook post.
In that Facebook post was waritten that you'd have to click on the comments to see more video.
We got an official announcement on Deeproots Website aqt the end of May, that was over and over posted here and even with the reveal now a big article on TWIP that says that this is a porototype and while the "game/ playfield" in itself is pretty much finished, the cab art is a placeholer.
First pinside post: CAB LOOKS SHIT!!!
Why bother to do any PR HERE?!?
They do PR. Stern does (a lot of) PR.
They just don't do it here anymore.

Hate to agree with the guy from Doucheldorf but the best thing DR can do right now is say absolutely nothing.

#6515 1 year ago

I thought it was very odd that he tried to make it very clear that Deeproot money was "his money" and that there are "no investors". Was he just using jargon wordplay or is that correct? I thought there was evidence of this being some sort of investment vehicle, no?

#6530 1 year ago
Quoted from DakotaMike:

Except that I don't think that pinball manufacturers and designers who conduct themselves with dignity, and transparency, should have any real problems here. RM's problem was that sometimes he can be a trash-talking braggart, and people love to try and take down people like that. Mike from Homepin ran into the very same issues. Also, Stern didn't run into any real problems on the pinside forums, until after they started having insert/playfield issues back in 2016 with Ghostbusters. That's when Stern started getting a lot of hate comments, and because as a company they have never fully and properly addressed the various and ongoing playfield/quality issues, they can't for the most part engage with pinside. Aside from Nordman, who seems to still get away with the occasional post.
Show me a pinball company that's taking a lot flack on pinside, and I'll bet you 100% of the time you'll find technical, quality, or communication problems coming from said pinball company/representative.

I've had a few discussions with Jersey Jack. He had some not so rosy things to say about his competitors. He doesn't post on Pinside. Smart man. Robert's learning. Lots of Pinball people start out here and quickly realize they have nothing to gain and then disappear.

#6591 1 year ago
Quoted from thedarkknight77:

Pinside Sewer needs a T-Shirt! I wonder if the great Zombie Yeti would design something for us???

It would probably be a "hack job".

#6600 1 year ago
Quoted from Richthofen:

The payments to Jpop's victims were simply a transfer from the investors who bought deeproot securities to the Jpop victims. When this thing goes belly up, there will be a new set of victims.
There's this concept in some economics circles called "The bezzle". It's the fake wealth people believe they have when they're making an investment that will go belly up, but before they realize it. Right now jpop victims who were remunerated feel great. Robert Mueller feels great because he's got millions of investor dollars. And deeproot security owners feel great because they own an asset which, although already spent on salaries to pinball designers and rent, etc, hasn't been marked down on paper to show the money being spent. I know some of his other funds have payouts of 5-7% ... where will that money come from if Deeproot pinball is set up the same way? Deeproot pinball has offered $6 million in equity. What happens when that money runs out? Will Robert dip into the other funds and transfer money between the LLCs he has? Will he sell more securities to pay out any redemptions from the initial investors? Everything is hunky dory until the new money stops coming in. Then the shitshow starts.
I feel bad for Jpop's initial customers but it doesn't mean that the answer is ripping off a new set of investors.
“Galbraith’s greatest contribution to economics is the concept of the bezzle, that increment to wealth that occurs during the magic interval when a confidence trickster knows he has the money he has appropriated but the victim does not yet understand that he has lost it. The gross national bezzle has never been larger than in the past decade.”


What is your understanding of why RM would adamantly say that "there are no investors" and it was "his money". Is he stretching the truth?

#6613 1 year ago
Quoted from Richthofen:

That's the deeproot fund. It's a different LLC than the deeproot pinball company. It's unclear how Deeproot pinball is operating, whether it has access to monies from the sales of equity in the deeproot fund.
Says the fund is backed by life insurance policies "and affiliates". No idea if a pinball machine company is considered an affiliate.

It's just strange. If he does have investors than the statements he made in the interview would probably generate some kind of legal issue. If he doesn't have any investors then I find it almost impossible to believe he paid for all this stumbling around out of his own bank account. My best guess is that this is "technically" his money but that he is not the only person taking a risk and that there are so many wrappers around this company that he is legally entitled to make that claim.

But then again, who knows, I work in the sewer...

#6619 1 year ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

And why does it honestly matter? We only become investors if we Buy a game so it seems irrelevant unless he robbed a bank to build the machines.

This whole thread is speculation on what Deeproot is doing/going to do. I think it's important to understand the financial capabilities of a fledgling company burning through $750k per month. Helps me understand their financial health and who the actual boss is. I think both JJP and Stern got a little boost when it became clear that they had investors.

Anyway, maybe it means nothing, hard to see anyway, stuck in this sewer.

3 weeks later
#6931 1 year ago

So many errors in Pinball Adventures 1, what made them think a game based on spelling would be a good idea?

1 week later
#6959 1 year ago
Quoted from Fulltilt:

What a great unlicensed theme!

If a game called "Christmas" is ever released my prediction is that it will be released by American Pinball on December 26, any year.

1 week later
#7045 1 year ago

Robert clearly said several times that there are no investors and it was all "his" money.

#7069 1 year ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Here is my post from earlier. Just click the link. 35 non accredited investors, 126 overall. Deeproot 575 fund, LLC
So good for them.
"It's sort of amazing isn't it Bill? They are operating under Reg D and file annual updates with the SEC. If you go onto SEC.GOV and search it you'll find the details right there.
Investment advisors are putting their "accredited clients" into this investment. Looks like an 8% commission.
However, nothing wrong with Reg D, idle capital sitting on the sidelines going to work in the marketplace creating jobs and opportunity. Usually high risk high reward.
Here you go, public records. Actually up to $32 million raised and filed for a new $37 million offering once they reach $35 million on the first one.

Thanks. Is there some technical/legal reason he can say it's all his money and there are no investors? Serious question.

#7071 1 year ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Where did he ever say that? I don't get it either.

He said it in the recent Kaneda interview (which has been taken down I think). He was very adamant.

#7090 1 year ago
Quoted from Mr68:

I don't recall the quote where RM said it was his money and I don't really care. Assuming he did say it, I'm certain he was speaking figuratively as in, it was his money to spend on the company/investor's behalf.

He clearly said "there are no investors, it's all my money". To me this is potentially a big deal because:

a. If there are investors then he is flat out lying in the most bold way possible and is subjecting himself to possible legal issues.
b. He is using some kind of "investor speak" which I really don't understand and wish someone could explain.
c. He is telling the truth and may be close to bankruptcy.

It's potentially a big deal because if I want to invest in one of their games (and that's why I'm in this thread to begin with), I want to know the company will be around to support it.

#7109 1 year ago
Quoted from razorsedge:

Not all investments pay off, so no it really does not have to pay off at all. It may well cost some investors their wager. Where the investment comes from doesn't matter to any of us really at all, unless any of us are rich A hole investors?
I mean, Who Cares if the detached "investors" lose or profit, really. They know they are in a risk/investment game.
I certainly don't care where Roberts money is coming from, don't know why any other pinhead should care either. If DR make some good games so be it, Bonus!. If the investors lose a pile of coin... well s#it happens!. I don't care one bit about that.
Is anyone paying deposits? ... no? .... well if they were then maybe where the money is coming from would be somehow relevant to be raising every 5 minutes in this pinside topic. Give the investment speculation rubbish a rest how about...

Let's say they announce/show a game you really want, Golden Girls. It's everything you dreamed of. You buy it and put it in your basement. Two weeks later the light board under Blanche flakes out. You contact deep root but they won't answer the phone. Turns out they are running a skeleton crew because the investors have triggered immediate payments and deep root doesn't have funding to continue operating. They then spend the next 12 months looking for new investors while beginning bankruptcy proceedings. Wouldn't it be nice to have had more information before you made the purchase in the first place?

2 weeks later
#7307 1 year ago
Quoted from fumbleflippers:

So do these guys have the BTTF license? Wasn’t that a rumor at one point?
I’m hoping they show up to Texas with a truckload of games ready to sell & pickup immediately. Anything less will be a let down after two years of hype.

I'm guessing Battlestar Galactica. Mueller is a fan. 80s theme. Bezel for current game fits a BG.

3 weeks later
#7488 1 year ago
Quoted from Brijam:

I should stop being surprised when people who aren't operators throw out opinions as to what an operator would buy, immediately after a very well known operator says the idea is DOA and gives solid reasons why. /facepalm
As an operator myself, an easier way to service pins on location would be great. Just doing basic maintenance on flippers is a pain in the ass.
But... zero interest in swappable playfields. Negative interest in fact. If a pin isn't earning for me, I want to sell it quickly. I don't want to warehouse playfields, cabinet art and translites. That's a cost, not a profit.
I'll add a few other swappable killers to the list:
A swap-friendly cabinet locks you in to the original design. Every game will have to have the same number of flipper buttons as the version 1 cabinet or you lose compatibility.
You don't just have to store the populated playfield, you have to store the cabinet art and translites, too.
You can't just store a populated playfield, cab art and translites on the floor unless you like breaking things. You will need special containers which adds unnecessary $$$. And you will need to store them in a dry, climate controlled location.
Moving a populated playfield is not going to be easy (without specialized equipment). It may be easy to get in and out of the cabinet, but you still have to move it to and from storage (and vehicles).
Reselling just a playfield will be much, much harder because the market will be a tiny fraction of pinball buyers. You have to find someone with the cabinet who doesn't already have your playfield.

Add to that, software/boardsets usually change...ALL THE TIME. The days of a board set lasting for years are over. New board, new plugs etc etc.

#7522 1 year ago

Steve Bowden seems to be really into Sonic Hedgehog lately. Not a big fan but would kind of be perfect for pinball.

1 week later
#7642 1 year ago
Quoted from jimwe5t:

Quite an insightful post and may not be too far from the truth. Lol This scenario is quite believable given JPop past history and Robert’s tendency to run away with his mouth. Remember, this is the same JPop that stiffed Zidware customers.
Raza, if improved from the almost useable prototype shown at Houston expo, still is not going to excite new customers at a price of $8k. Who will actually spend this much money on an unlicensed theme? Haven’t we learned from APs non licensed theme’s dismal sales? Raza will be no different, nor any of DR’s other announced titles, except possibly, Alice in Wonderland. And surely they are not going to license the Disney version of that title. Licensed themes are the only ones that sell these days. Without a top tier license, toys priced at near $10k don’t sell.
DR’s so called launch is going to be interesting to say the least, to see how much they have actually done in the past numerous years of existence.

What about their planned title about the Bible? There are like 300,000 churches in the United States and none of them have a single Pinball machine in any of them. Massive untapped market! /s

1 week later
#7753 1 year ago
Quoted from JodyG:

With CGC on the cusp of announcing a game or two, American Pinball announcing a new game, Jersey Jack with GNR and possibly TMNT from Stern all looking to drop around the time of of TPF this year, Deeproot sure looks to be picking a pretty bad time to try to upend the market. Imagine if they would have hit their date a year ago...pretty much nothing was competing for the spotlight last year.

Also add that Spooky just made a huge splash with Rick and Morty.

Perfect timing would have been at Chicago last fall when Stern and JJP were going through the worst of their playfield problems.

#7845 1 year ago
Quoted from kermit24:

Without a major license game in the pipeline, how does deeproot expect to achieve scale?

Bible Stories. Based on the greatest selling book of all time!

6 months later
#10221 1 year ago


Day 1: Lower expectations through floor.
Day 2: ?
Day 3: ?
Day 4: ?
Day 5: Profit

#10702 1 year ago
Quoted from m00nmuppet:

It's almost as though.....how does someone NOT place a beer there? It looks like it was made to hold beer steady...

I know people who slap the lockdown bar to nudge.

I know even more who slap the lockdown bar out of frustration after a bad ball.

I have never seen and old lockdown bar on any of my games that wasn't uniformly scratched all over.

I'm guessing these things were not mentioned until the recent "tour".

#10731 1 year ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

The podcasters are just dead weight who were there to provide free marketing, but I think having actual players there who could point out the basic glaring flaws of having a palm torturing lockdown bar that also blocks the view of the flippers may cause some issues in the marketplace.

I'm guessing Robert is a dictator who won't let an idea change once he's made up his mind, JPOP doesn't actually play what he creates and Steve Bowden was told "just come up with the rules, we don't need any help with engineering". Just a guess but when the smoke clears I bet I'm more right than wrong.

#10900 1 year ago

Leaked image from tour. Warning: graphic.

2 weeks later
#12588 1 year ago
Quoted from Patrunkenphat7:

I’m not sure if I should get a Guns ‘n Roses and Avengers or hold out for Food Truck and Old Testament. The latter two are dream themes for me.

I can't wait for the Old Testament promo, "Based on the #1 best selling book of ALL TIME! This isn't Pinball evolution, it's PINBALL REVOLUTION!"

6 months later
#17560 6 months ago
Quoted from epthegeek:

Going to sell $50,000 for $5,000? I can't see any way that ends badly.

Post #3, this thread could have ended right there without 17500 more posts basically saying the same thing...

4 months later
#24185 54 days ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Quite simply, RM bought his credibility around here, and it was easy. We went from nobody knowing who this asshole was to people clamoring to send him money in a matter of a couple short months.

I can't imagine anyone who has been involved in this specific thread would have sent him even a nickel. The red flags were here from DAY 1. If they did then I really don't have anything to say except...I'm thinking of building a pinball company, can you send me some money too?

1 month later
#26190 11 days ago
Quoted from Yoreland:

How about on K's podcast interview when "Blobert" was asked about answering to investors regarding his pinball venture and he replied "there's no investors in pinball". He knew the was pulling the the wool over their eyes.
Talk about self incriminating.

I remember that, he said it was "my money", nobody elses. Pure hubris.

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