Alice in Wonderland
Zidware Pinball USA, 2013
Celts
Haggis, 2021
Magic Girl
Zidware Pinball USA, 2017
Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland
Zidware Pinball USA, 2012
Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland (Arcade Edition)
Deeproot, 2020
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Quoted from Wolfmarsh:Copperfield blows compared to Penn and Teller. Copperfield's show in Vegas was lame when i saw it.
True story and especially relevant given your location. A number of years ago, my parents lived near Charleston and saw David Copperfield was going to be performing. They bought tickets because my mother was a huge fan of Charles Dickens.
Needless to say, they were disappointed 
(I can picture my parents sitting there as the show starts thinking 'what in the hell is this?')
Quoted from Brijam:We’re in the infancy of LCD’s in pinball. Most of what is being done is confusing and just wrong. I keep hoping that one of the pinball manufacturers will hire some actual interaction designers who understand user interface and game design. Compared to video games, pinball LCDs are in the dark ages. They’ll improve.
Interesting take. If you've ever conducted usability tests on software it is incredibly enlightening. You watch seemingly bright, tech savvy people stumble and bumble their way through things that seemed so simple and intuitive. There are times when you just burst out laughing and want to shout out "RIGHT THERE ON THE LEFT NAV, YOU MORON"
I'm confident there is no usability conducted or tracking of where people are looking and expect things to be. However, as Brijam also notes, the LCD is as much about the observer of the game as it is the player, so interpreting the results get problematic. This is further muddied by, as noted by @27dnast, the usability for a player varies over time.
I imagine the costs to conduct usability studies (and associated tweaking in response to test results) are too high to justify and, as a result, I'm betting that the refinement of the LCD to optimize its value will come about more via trial and error and intermittent epiphany than any deliberate, objective, and 'scientific' analysis.
Quoted from benheck:This seems very car-like. The linear actuator means the "glass hood" opening will be computer controlled likely with a solenoid lock near the (traditional) lock down bar area.
How does one then open the game without power on? Is there a hole under the cab to disconnect the linkage like unlocking a 4 wheel drive for a tow? Linear actuators have very high gear ratios so moving it by hand would be hard. You'd also need a locked door for that as it would be a pinch point hazard if left open and kids crawled underneath.
This also could lend creedance to a possible "LCD as glass" feature because you'd actually need to sandwich an LCD with more glass to protect it from ball knocks. Making it heavier furthering the need for mechanical assistance. The fact that glass stays attached also points to electrical connections going to again much like the rear hatch of a car.
Seems cool but would be expensive, and this game's weight will be "Hold my beer" to Hobbit and TNG.
Interesting speculation and reminds me of some other projects. Someone has an idea for something really neat and original so you begin down the path of design/prototyping. A little ways in, the law of unintended consequences would raise its ugly head and you'd have to take a detour and re-engineer/re-invent some component to address the issue. This would result in another unintended consequence. Soon you find yourself staring at a Rube Goldberg device tied together with spaghetti code. Not bad if you are a profitable company with the ability to invest in R&D and skunkworks type operations. A bit more problematic as a startup. Of course, all speculation.
Quoted from chad:I was in on a bunch of the Champion Pub playfields at $ 20.00 back then. They were rejects and I never could find any issue with them.
Take a couple of pics and post them in a for sale ad. I guarantee you, within an hour, you will have 50+ posts pointing out all the defects, registration errors, color mismatches, bad inserts, etc, etc.
Quoted from LTG:Thank God we have all this outdated and uninspired crap to play until your games come out.
LTG : )
Herein lies one of the underlying issues we've seen so far with Deeproot. Their contempt for the existing products reflects on those of us who buy games. In essence, they are saying, 'this stuff is crap so we are all morons for wasting our money on uninspired crap'. By and large people don't like to be told "you are an idiot....now buy this from me"
Quoted from Rondogg:Grammar police are the worst. Yes it can be frustrating to see words spelled incorrectly but it doesn't change their message and just makes the person calling it out look petty and small. Most of us got over it a LONG time ago. You should too.
I never grammar police; however, it is a tough one for me because, if I misuse or misspell a word, I want it to be pointed out so that I avoid doing it in a context where it may matter. I'm not talking about obvious typos, but incorrect words and usage. I'll be chomping at the bit to see all the flustrated people casting there downvotes.
Quoted from Brijam:Their/there is a common mistake. Use 'their' when you mean something owned. Use 'there' to indicate direction.
As in: 'DR was supposed to have their booth right over there, but they canceled because they have nothing to show.'
Also 'flustrated' should be 'frustrated.' As in, 'I bet this grammar post will really make people with no sense of humor really frustrated.'
That's two, what was the third one?
Quoted from Tranquilize:No need for the comma after "because" because it is functioning as a conjunction before a dependent clause. Also, no comma before "but" as it is not functioning as a coordination conjunction, just a plain old conjunction. These don't matter very much, so you may not care.
You sound like my wife! She was an English teacher and is always getting after me about dependent clauses, improper antecedents and all that other esoteric stuff!
Quoted from Brijam:Do tell!
Let me be the first to admit, I was being a bit pedantic
https://grammarist.com/usage/champing-chomping-at-the-bit/
https://www.portablepress.com/blog/2014/04/chomping-vs-champing/
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:Come on, you know that isn't true.
I can see it now. "Hey Bob, I just did one of those on-line wills, if you don't have one, you should get one" "Oh, and let me add...this is not legal advice. I am not a lawyer licensed in the state of NC" Or during a picnic this July 4th, your friend says "Yeah, Frank borrows my truck and brings it back with the a dent but he is ignoring me now" You respond "I'd tell him you'll sue if he doesn't fix it" "But let me hasten to add, nothing I've said should be construed as formal legal advice as I am neither a lawyer nor licensed in this state" Or your son asks you to look over the lease for the apartment he is considering. "Sorry, son, this is a legal document and, since I'm not a lawyer I'm not going to be able to provide my thoughts"
What I find most interesting is the reaction of Deeproot to the comment. Why would Ben's comment get Deeproot's hackles up? Is it that they fear a run on the bank or perhaps the out-of-pocket expense is more on a refund than the game credit? Then again, maybe it's marketing driven of wanting more owners day one? Or maybe it's all reverse psychology at play...Deeproot wants people to take the $ and by overreacting to Ben's comment they want to stoke concerns about a run on the bank, which will cause a run on the bank eliminating the game credit scenario altogether! Those crafty devils!
Quoted from Honch:Exactly!! Plus, what looks cooler than a row of pins?? That was a rhetorical question in case you "kit" guys were thinking there was actually an alternative answer.
How about these pics of gamerooms of the future!
crates (resized).png
pasted_image (resized).pngAnyone else think the language used around the playfield situation sounds like a class in the making? I can hear the commercials now... "If you or anyone you know purchased a pinball machine from Stern, JJP, or AP from 2012 to 2019 and experienced any chipping, dimpling or other issues with the playfield, YOU may be entitled to compensation for your damages. Contact the law offices of Deeproot. We're on YOUR side"
Let's see say, 25k machines produced, settlement of $2k per machine makes $50mm. Contingency fees of 40%....hmmm
Quoted from JustEverett:You'd be surprised how many novice players avoid the newer games at my house and stick to the EMs. The complexity of newer games seems to overwhelm non pinheads.
Related to this and a question I wish would have been asked is "who is the target market" They talked about expanding the market...'a pinball in every home'
Leaving aside the price, I can't imagine any distributor touting many of these innovations. Imagine you're thinking it might be fun to get a pinball machine for the family. The salesman shows the fancy way the glass lifts up. "This makes accessing the playfield a breeze" Customer "why would I want to do that?" Salesman, "lots of reasons, to unstick a ball, fix a problem or just to wax the playfield periodically" And just look at this, as he shows the schematic on the underside of the playfield detailing hundreds of parts. Customer asks "what's that for?" Salesman "It's great, when you have an issue you can much more easily diagnose and replace the faulty part". "But that's nothing, just see how easy it is to cycle through all the service menus....wait don't leave, I haven't even shown you the self-leveling legs or the industrial strength storage crate you're gonna want!"
All of these things would seem to scream "Pinball is complicated, it breaks, it needs to be maintained", which doesn't seem to be a great message for market expansion.
It makes me wonder if they've decided to forego the noob home market and just concentrate on operator(s) and collectors? I guess if we knew pricing, we'd know.
Quoted from wrb1977:History has shown countless times technology and innovation offering solutions to problems people didn’t even know they had, until the new and improved way comes to market. Then and only then is the old way considered obsolete and the new way embraced and become the new standard. This is what I anticipate with deeproot, if they can ever get some games out the door.
While this is true the opposite is much more likely. For every one of these game changers that are embraced, there are dozens and dozens of innovations that never make it out of the patent office. Only a small percentage even make it through Ron Popeil's front door let alone be embraced by the public at large.
I would like to see the CBA for DLC on a pinball machine. The number of units of a typical pinball machine sold is negligible when compared to video games, MS office products, mainstream consumer products, etc. And, of course, not everyone would purchase the content. The cost to develop, document and support the code is not insignificant....and, as someone who spent many years in the software business including managing both development and support, I can tell you the bane of our existence was variable customer configurations. It is a pain (read costly) to support. Maybe the numbers work out but with mainstream manufacturers having a difficult enough time cranking out complete, bug-free code, I'm not sure a great business case exists.
Quoted from flynnibus:It’s simple... no contract, no code. You have contract? Upgrade to latest code.
90 day warranty with free code updates during that time.
Code not done? Just extend free upgrades until you have a defendable point
Online features gated by active contract
You don’t need millions of units to support this model. It’s basically the model used by everyone who makes commercial gear.
Well, it's clear I don't know what "commercial gear" encompasses. In any case, there is an inverse relationship with # of subscribers and what the subscription price needs to be. That said, you do raise another interesting question. How is the defendable point determined? One need only look at the myriad threads regarding incomplete code to see that the defendable point from the manufacturer's point of view is not in synch with a good many consumers and, in a number of cases, that disconnect lingers for years.
Regardless of how that point is defined and the consumers acceptance of that definition, additional content generates additional expense (as well as the opportunity cost of not deploying those resources on other, potentially more lucrative endeavors). Hence why I'd love to see the actual CBA showing the relationship between number of subscribers and the subscription price. Can it work with pinball? Beat's me.
Quoted from flynnibus:Simple... what hill you are willing to die on.
Yep, definitely Sophie's choice
Quoted from benheck:Bill spent 100k, AP spent millions, DR spent tens of millions... Where does JPOP fail up to next?
"You gotta see these games man" said Mike Quigley, Congressman for the 5th district of Illinois "They're like, so beautiful and stuff. That why I'm introducing the $1 billion dollar Let's Invest Money Pinball Does Interesting Commerce Credit bill. John Popaduik is the Obama of pinball and he promises a 20 trillion dollar return on investment."
I see what you did there 
I was thinking that Bill was one of the lynchpins for the Super Cutting-edge, Reimagining, Engineering and Wonderment Enterprise Decree of 2019
Quoted from boo32:Why are they asking people to submit a w-9 for a refund? It’s not income and I would hope they don’t plan to send you a 1099
I agree, why do they need your SSN?
Quoted from greenhornet:check with iceman.
for individuals, it appears this might be treated as a non-deductible theft loss for the amount sent to zidware, and then taken back as taxable income when received from deeproot. you are no longer getting a refund from zidware, but a goodwill payment from deeproot, which they are writing off. probably holds true for the fair market value of the machine if someone chooses to go that route. requesting a W-9 could be justified.
I agree and perhaps I misunderstood. I thought, from reading Iceman's note, that the W-9 was only needed if you received cash. As you note, getting product in lieu of cash should carry the same tax liability. Must have misunderstood.
Quoted from flynnibus:So they are saying it was just all mumbo jumbo to try to sound innovative and disruptive. Good thing they didn’t use e claims to justify how they would be different and able to best other established processes.... oh wait...
I remember many years ago, we had this chart. (I was in technology). It had three columns and in each column were about a half dozen technical terms. Things like Integrated, Relational, BIOS, Transient, Network stack, multi-tasking, algoritm, module, etc. We'd joke that if someone non-technical asked why something was late or not working properly, you'd make up a reason by randomly picking a word from each column. "Yeah, I know it is delayed but we are having problems with the Integrated BIOS Algorithm" or "we've isolated the issue to the transient multi-tasking network stack" This reads a lot like that to me.
Try it: Column 1 : Integrated, quality, rationalized, streamlined, multi-channel, Optimized Column 2: LEAN, Six Sigma, Agile, Structured, Efficient, Distributive Column 3: Process, Life Cycle, Development environment, Prioritization model, Production platform. E.g, "We are the first utilizing a multi-channel Lean development environment" "We've borrowed from other industries to provide a fully rationalized distributive production platform"
Quoted from RobT:Exactly right.
This "blanket indemnity" agreement is bullshit. You can't get around the various consumer protection laws this way.
I'd like to hear Iceman chime in on this issue.
Many of these things, like NDA's, liability waivers and non-competes are used mainly for purposes of intimidation...to stop people form taking an action. They count on the majority of people simply shrugging their shoulders and saying 'it ain't worth fighting'. To be sure there are circumstances where these sort of agreements are enforceable; however, those circumstances tend to be pretty narrow and specific.
Quoted from Yelobird:Curious, does Stern or JJP claim responsibility or cost for shipping damage? Hmmm don't think so. Seems like a shipping claim issue or at least that was the case with the damage claims I had in the past.
I think the question is whether Stern, JJP and/or the distributor pays for full coverage on the shipment and if DR is saying they don't unless you order the pinpod. When I ship things, I am always asked about the value. Heck when you go to the post office, they will ask you if you want to pay for extra coverage. So yes, you file with the shipper but if it wasn't fully insured, they won't cover the full cost. That seems to be the concern here.
I am confused by the comment that they won't make the extra machines. Their original statements suggested that they would, in essence, round up the number. This provided some economies of scale and, if the game proves to be successful, greater profit, especially considering the pricing they provided was higher than pre-order sales. I find it odd that a supplier could provide 120 units but not 150 of a component. It seems more likely the reason is one of two things. Either they don't anticipate any follow-up demand for the game or their profit model is way off and they just want to get this behind them and start at square one.
Where this gets dicey is in the area of support. If someone has a problem with the playfield or a ramp cracks, are they SOL? What if a game gets damaged in shipping? is that it? Heck, even in the assembly process, stuff gets damaged. They have to be ordering some extras, don't they?
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:This is definitely a thing. Since there is such a shortage of machined components still, lots of suppliers are rationing their orders
I understand but I'm not sure it is applicable in this case. Remember these are very small numbers. Stern orders 20,000 flipper buttons, JJP orders 5000 and Deeproot wants 300 instead of 250? Don't think it is worth the vendors time to break that order up.
As far as the game specific things, the setup time is so significant that the vendor wants to blast as many as possible. I doubt the ramp manufacturer says 'let's setup all the molds and stop at 120 units so I can make 5000 for Stern' It is much more efficient to just make the extra 20-30 units. At one point in my career I worked for a company that did screen printing (NFL, Disney sort of stuff). Once they had the screens setup, they blasted as much as possible. Even though setup costs were passed through, they would much prefer to print. Maybe printing playfields and plastics is different but given the low numbers, I'd think they would have no issue running an additional 20 units. But who knows, I'm not bright enough to figure out a lot of this.
Very interesting update, especially when viewed in the context of the last update.
The prior update said this about refunds:
(if games are not imminently ready to start shipping) to offer some financial relief for the delays in the form of a return of store credit, discount of the RAZA purchase, or allow customers to rescind RAZA purchases for a refund with nominal interest.
This update says
if some RAZA customers wish to rescind their contracts and request their payments back, we will offer those on a first-come, first serve basis starting June 1, 2021. You can reply to this e-mail or use our online contact form on our website
So, apparently, store credit is no longer an option? If DR is planning on making other games, you would think they would want you to go the store credit route, assuming the other games are priced at a profit. For example, if the margin is $2k on a $10k game, then the out-of-pocket cost to DR for issuing $10k in store credits is only $8k. Not to mention the fact that the store credit keeps the buyer in the fold. In fact, one would have actually expected the opposite to happen, i.e., that the cash refund would have been removed leaving only a store credit option.
(also interesting to note that the prior update talked about UL certification being received in a couple of week,,,not a mention in this update)
Quoted from iceman44:Here’s my best guess on money blown.
Gonna say all in here based on PPP payroll and what he’s said in the past
Rent $900 k x 5 yrs. $4.5 mill
Labor $2 mill x 2 yrs. $4 mill peak time
Labor. Before peak and now. $2 mill total
Supplies? No games so what? $500k
Labor based on his PPP payroll reporting
Is $11 mill off base? What am I missing?
On $41.5 mill the debt service is $2.8 mill
Principal come due in 5 years.
The biggest traunch of money, $16 mill
Was raised in 2019 pre Covid. Still has 3 more yrs before it’s due
Return on the $30 million left? 10%?
So that’s $3 mill in fund revenues if true which covers the debt service
Where are pinball funds coming from now?
Can you at least get to cash flow neutral and stop the cash burn? Which is what they should have focused on since day one
Doesn’t look promising. Overhead is still way too high and no real path to achieve mass production if they did have a hit
Still, they can limp pinball along for quite a long time if they want to or need to based on investor advisor expectations with the remaining $30 mill
I think you may be missing a couple of things:
1) The believe the actual amended forms D provide a running total of funds collected vs allocated. For example, the 2016 D/A shows total offering of $25mm, ~1.7mm subscribed with ~23mm left. The 2017 D/A shows $25mm, ~6.7 sold and ~18.3mm remaining. Looks like there was a secondary offering in 2019 of $37.5mm, with about $4.9 sold per the 12/2020 D/A. Bottom line, seems like the $41.5mm may be high
2) Per the D/A, the finders fees and commissions looks to be ~6.5%
3) First funds collected in 2015, so they have hit maturity (although the vast majoirity is later)
4) Back in late 2018, RM said his burn rate was $750k a month or $9mm a year. This was before the pandemic and before the reduction of the SLC crew. Add that PPP can't include ees making over $100k so using PPP can be tricky. RM's run rate may have been grossly overstated; however, $11mm of total spend seems light. (Now I don't think it was $30mm, as some have suggested, but probably more than $11mm)
Looking at the numbers (and picking ones that favor Deeproot and make the math easy).... Say they raised $40mm. Less fees that leaves $37.4. If you take a spend of $12.4mm (which is much much closer to your guess than the RM's), you have $25mm left for investments paying a return. The challenge is you owe interest, bonus and return of principle based on $40mm invested and you are doing it with only $25mm. (You need to earn 60% on the $25mm just to get to the initial $40mm) I saw someone asked you in the other thread whether you would invest in the 575 fund. I agree with your take...when you look at the numbers, it's hard to see how this dog hunts. Of course, that's why this fund is not for the faint of heart. Of course, I'm probably missing something as well....and who knows...if they put the money in BTC starting back in 2015, they can blow through $50mm without batting an eye!
First, I have to commend you on both your forthrightness and thick skin on this...However, I do have a question for you.
Did they provide any rationale for not allowing you to drop back to the std deposit?
Just curious because your request seemed very reasonable to me. It seems the vast majority of people only have partial deposits so it wasn't like you were asking for some special dispensation. Assuming they are committed to making the games and they have enough funds to cover the cost to make them, I don't understand why they wouldn't happily accommodate your request.
Quoted from Zablon:Well..good or bad, there's something to be said for following through. It would probably make these the most expensive pinball machines ever built.
Never thought about it like that but if the spend was $20mm and they built 130, then shut down, you are looking at a pinball machine that cost over $150,000 per machine!
Quoted from iceman44:Just kidding. My brother used to dip skoal and he finally quit. Nasty stuff and terrible for you.
My grandfather was a tobacco farmer in NC, I tried a chew one time and that was enough for me for good. Swallowed it, got sick and threw up. Lol
Never smoked a day in my life either. Pot or otherwise.
When I was a kid, all of the construction workers building houses dipped Skoal wintergreen snuff. Man, do I love the smell of wintergreen, so I knew this stuff had to be like Wint-O-green lifesvers on steriods. One day, I was maybe 12, a friend of mine scored some. Opened the tin, that beautiful deep wintergreen scent wafting up to my nose, I grabbed a very generous wad of it and put it between my cheek and gum. If you've never tried it, trust me, it doesn't taste anything like a Wint-O-Green lifesaver. And, of course, being a boy, age 12, rather than be subjected to the ridicule of my friends, I had to suffer for a good 15 minutes before I spit it out. Needless to say, that was my first and last experience with it (althought I did try chewing tobacco later in life, didn't much care for that either)
Quoted from iceman44:Game over is failure. Gotta disagree here. He’s been hitting “continue” for years since the “5 days of deeproot” when it could have/should have been shut down
I don’t think he’s going anywhere. Pinball is still an underlying business (liability) of the 575 fund which is THE priority and that will be around for many years to come
Buckle in boys! Somebody is gonna be producing those games
Hey Ice, question for you as I don't remember but I was thinking the 575 fund was structured as 5% initial bonus, 7% annual return and return of principal in 5 years? If so, some of that initial principle would have hit the five year mark. Now maybe there is an opportunity to re-up, but I believe, this is not as straight-forward as one might expect with this type of fund. Anyhow, I think this (the return of principle) is the ticking time bomb.
Quoted from TreyBo69:Maybe Robert got some money in selling life insurance policies, and learned dead people can’t spend money or their estate may not be able to go after relatively small amounts individually in court.
He then took it to the next level by targeting older people’s retirement nest egg figuring they’d die before they could figure out they lost it all.
The evil genius of Madoff’s Ponzi scheme was that he targeted a lot of charities and large university endowment. They were places that only needed an annuity paid out and were unlikely to ever suddenly cash out.
I wonder if Robert thought some of his investors would die off before it became an issue for him to own up to
Truly despicable stuff.
Not to suggest his actions weren't despicable; however, it doesn't appear that they were selling policies (there is a different set of licensing needed to sell life insurance). My understanding is the fund was supposed to purchase 'bundles' of life insurance policies from insurance companies below the value based on actuarial calculations. It is similar to companies that purchase bundles of mortgages from banks at below market. It appears, based on a quick skim of the SEC filing, that while they had the ability to invest some $ in other more speculative investments (like pinball), this was supposed to be a small %. Instead, they burned through way too much money on Pinball, putting them in a precarious position. Then as the five year term started to expire for some of the original investors, DR needed to pony up principal. They tried to move money between funds to help but eventually they had to start borrowing money to address the shortfall. Surprise, they weren't able to get cheap money. At this point they had to 1) make the recurring investment fund payments of 7% a year 2) start to reimburse principal for investors that hit the end of the five year term, and 3) make the payments on the money they were borrowing to cover 1 and 2.
I think some may be underestimating how long it is going to take for this whole thing to play out. Obviously, the SEC component will take awhile. But then you have the inevitable claw-back decisions, which won't be quick (people may not know but in the Madoff case, the clawback extended to people that had been in the fund and cashed out long before the scam was exposed. Imagine getting that knock on the door!). The follow-up suits by scammed investors will take even longer. Of course, you will have the likely bankruptcy of the pinball co...again, a very protracted process. And lawsuits by vendors that haven't been paid.
And.... what are the odds that RM reported the extra income? You think his W2 included the transfer to the trust, the jewelry, the private school tuition? Think the IRS will be auditing his returns for the last seven years? Once the govt smells blood in the water, they tend to come at you from all angles. Would anyone be surprised if more issues surfaced? He was desperate for $ to cover the fraud. Was dr making payroll tax payments, was the PPP being used in accordance with the guidelines? Will there be criminal charges? This is gonna take a long, long time to sort through
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:Does string theory mean a universe exists where deeproot is shipping more games a year than all other pinball companies combined?
Seems to me like the DR story is more like Chaos Theory, where everything goes to hell over time but is determined, in large part, by the initial conditions.
Quoted from 27dnast:Also, you’re a bubblehead. When you have a bubble for a head, you can only be expected to have average grammatical capabilities.
Hmm, all this time I thought it meant he was level-headed or maybe even keeled.
Quoted from JodyG:Dated a girl years ago whose father was a reactor operator in the Navy. Upon leaving the Navy, he became a reactor operator at Three Mile Island. He was operating the other reactor the day of the meltdown. He just retired about 5 years ago as one of the last employees still there from when the accident happened. They shut the place down entirely a couple years ago. He was always pretty chill, unlike some of the other submarine guys I've met around here. They definitely can have a bit of an attitude.
Back on topic, Robert is still a jackass.
A number of years ago, I worked with a submariner...great guy and really laid back as well. He was an alcoholic, which apparently is not uncommon with submariners. He had been sober for a long time but loved beer so he drank non-alcoholic beer. I was always amazed at his knowledge of non-alcoholic beers. I was of the mindset that there were only a few non-alcoholic beers but boy was I wrong. He was the Michael Jackson of non alcoholic beers. (the author not the singer)
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:But he was all the way in the Ukraine. He's not a miracle worker!!
I think that was out of the country, visiting family, but I don't think he was in the Ukraine... Far more likely that he was getting tips on raising money from his uncle in Nigeria.
Quoted from pookycade:... Your goal as manager is to reign ....
I actually think this is what RM did... REIGN over the plebs working for him
(as opposed to managing by listening, guiding, pushing when needed and reining in when appropriate)
Quoted from RCA1:That seems to be the most likely way that the SEC investigation got started. With a tip from someone on the Deeproot Funds side, or one of the other associated businesses, like pinball.
Remember the original fund investors were starting to hit the date at which their principle should have been reimbursed. I think the more likely scenario is that RM was trying to get people to re-up, (i.e., to roll their principle) into one of his new funds but not everyone bit. It wouldn't have taken many retirees to demand their principle payment to break the back of the scheme. If investors could not get their money back and sought legal advice...well, the SEC would have been one of the first calls. I think it is far less likely ees in the pinball business assumed their money issues were linked to the alleged misappropriationg of the Deeproot 575 funds and reached out to the SEC.
The thing about NashtyFunk was that I always saw him as being a realist. He wasn't hyping the game in any way, he certainly wasn't suggesting anyone else should jump on board or continue on the train. I would have to re-read his posts but I always got the impression that 1) he was fairly new (meaning he didn't have a lot of the history), 2) he bought the game because he thought the game looked great and would be fun to play 3) he figured the risk was more about when than and if and 4) he was emotionally and financially prepared to take the hit if things didn't work out.
There were some pre-order people who constatnly told people everything is fine, don't believe the haters and who acted as though they had insider info to support their positions. These few potentially caused other pre-order people to hold on to the bitter end and are more deserving of scorn...NashtyFunk was not one of those people.
My favorite item is on page 7 of the document (page 13 of the PDF), where it lists intangibles and IP
Item 65 Goodwill
Value None
Truer words were never spoken
Seems to sum everything up
Quoted from iceman44:Bobby missed the “shame” and “conscience” gene.
What is the “Deeproot investment portal”?
I missed that. But yeah, I don’t get the Turner thing either.
How does he even know what buying LI policies are about and how much to even bid.
Somebody had to tell those guys these policies were gonna lapse if payments weren’t made soon.
Yost did the legal work, he’ll get reimbursed if they are outbid. Not a bad deal for him either.
I’m curious as to how many policies they let lapse. I would assume the trustee would have been highly motivated to get something moving
That is the big head scratcher. First, it is a relatively small number of policies, which requires more detailed demographic info to price out. Second, you need to be or work with an actuary to assign value to the policies based on that data. (Either that or someone you trust (who has the aforementioned) tells you it is a good deal at a price of X.)
This is pretty esoteric stuff requiring specialized knowledge. It's not like someone wakes up says, 'hmm, I think I'll diversify my investments...maybe precious metals, or art, or real estate would be good...no, I know, I think I'll buy a small basket of life insurance policies'
Quoted from JodyG:Even in 2022, the old boys club is still alive and well in the south.
I hate to be the bearer of bad news; however, who you know, the relationships you have and networking influences outcomes in every municipality, county, state and country in the world. Just talk to someone who has to deal with the government in the area of permitting, zoning, etc. be it here in the USA, Europe, Asia. It may not be fair in fact, it downright sucks at times, but it's the same everywhere. Always has been, always will be.
Once again, I hate to be the bearer of bad news but that first motion ain't going anywhere.
Per item 8:
"The Defaulting Defendants are not infants, in the military, or incompetent
persons, and are not eligible for relief under the Service Members Civil Relief Act of 2003, 50
U.S.C. Appendix § 501 et seq"
How hard will it be to argue that one...imagine the parade of witnesses you could call!
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:I loved skimming and catching "The Defaulting Defendants are not infants"
Do you legit think the SEC won't prevail here or are you making a joke based on deeproot's clear incompetence (in a non-legal sense of the word)?
Either way, we've made it to step two.
[quoted image]
Joking.
I figure Robert probably ticks two out of three boxes (I think it is a safe bet that he isn't affiliated in any way with the military), certainly his boasts were infantile and his incompetence is not in question...so as Meatloaf says "two outta three ain't bad"
Quoted from Mr68:From my long ago personal experiences dealing with RM, combined with watching and analyzing his business moves for Deeproot the past 5 years, its difficult for me to believe he is some kind of evil genius operating three chess moves ahead.
Am I the only one laughing about this?
Add to this the fact that TuYo/Chris would be willfully playing on the fringes of fraud if they had knowledge of and/or are complicit in some plot to hide assets. OK, maybe the life insurance policies because it is easy/safe money but why would anyone want to get into the pinball business? Let alone with someone who is under investigation by the SEC and has burned through millions of dollars with nothing to show for it. I mean, for all his bluster about innovation and revolutionizing the industry, he couldn't even close the damn glass top! There are a whole lot easier and safer ways for Tuyo to make a buck.
Quoted from Mr68:John, I recommend you please stop doing that. Its rude and pretentious.
You seem frustrated at times that so many people don't believe in you. Its crap like this that turns people off.
There is another issue with John's "I do put out some bread crumbs for those to maybe try to figure out who the players are." People who confide in someone, expect it to be kept confidential. Trying to give people clues and hints as to who they are actually tends to aggravate them more than if you accidentally slip and say a name. In the latter, it's an oops, a mistake, an accidental slip of the tongue. The confider is much more likely to forgive and be understanding. When you knowingly drop hints and use clever wording to try to help someone guess who the person is, you are making a series of pre-mediated, calculated attempts to reveal your source. It's not a mistake it's a deliberate action to violate the trust and will put you in a position where people either won't trust you or will feed you false information for misdirection.
Quoted from SantaEatsCheese:Boeing could absolutely hire him, pending lawsuit and all. He wouldn't be able to work on anything requiring a clearance. He couldn't work on the F-35 program, but there is no reason why he couldn't work liability issues on 737 engines. He will never be able to get a clearance of any sort with a pending lawsuit of that magnitude. The clearance process is not just about rooting out spies. Alot of it is geared towards "Susceptibility to being blackmailed", or "susceptibility to accepting bribes". They really don't want people with financial problems who may compromise their morals for a quick payout... or people having affairs who could be blackmailed. There is no way our boy bobby comes within a mile of military contracts.
Having worked for and consulted with several large (100k+ ees), I think some may not understand the shear magnitude of jobs that exist in these gigantic companies (Boeing has 150k+ ees). He could be working on something as obscure as adverse impact for upcoming layoffs or DOL assessment of exempt vs non-exempt or ERISA issues or deferred compensation. When I worked at a very large compnay, I got an e-mail one day telling me that they had taken a life insurance policy out on me. Now it wasn't because I was irreplaceable, but rather they purchased life insurance policies on everyone above a certain compensation level. Seems like Robert might have some expertise in this area. The point, as SantaEatsCheese notes, is that there are thousands of jobs and hundreds of obscure/esoteric ones in a company that large.
Quoted from RCA1:It reads as though about $500K was Deeproot and the remainder was some other separate scam.
So not really part of Deeproot, but I don't think would add the remainder to Deeproot as it's a whole other thing.
Too many scams out there to keep track of these days.
Actually, it says "An investigation by the commission’s Securities Division found that Hopman and PGH Advisors sold at least $1.5 million worth of securities from a company called Deeproot and its affiliates"
Quoted from Mr68:He has made some brilliant chess moves that so far, have paid off.
I'm truly curious to know what brilliant chess moves he has made that have paid off. He has a bunch of pinball related stuff but as far as I can tell, hasn't realized any revenue from those purchases. Will they turn into something great? Maybe, but so far he has only spent money.
With respect to the policies he purchased, I assume that a fair number of people with health issues would have passed during the initial Covid surge. This occurred before the purchase and, therefore, the pool may well contain a higher percentage of healthly people. That would throw the actuarial calcs way off. Add to that the interest rates were still low when the purchase took place and I'm left scratching my head wondering if this will turn out to be such a great deal after all is said and done. Now, of course, perhaps he immediately sold the policies for a nice profit or purchased them so far below the actuarial value that it will turn a nice profit in spite of these issues, but I've never heard this was the case. I'm not disputing that he may be intelligent or that these will become wonderful investments, I just don't see any payoff up til now.
Quoted from Mr68:His Stalking Horse bid was brilliant. And I never said anything about him making a profit at this point, only making some smart moves.
Did you guys overlook my final comment?
My post was a response to you comment, "He has made some brilliant chess moves that so far, have paid off"
The "that so far have paid off" would suggest monetary benefit, i.e, $.
Also, curious as to how you've evaluated the ROI on his stalking horse bid to conclude it's brillance. Again, not disputing it is, just curious to see the data that supports that assessment.
Why do I get the feeling that, once this hits criminal court, RM testifies against the advice of counsel. He is found guilty and appeals citing imcompetent representation?
I hate having to move games into my game room. WOZ must way north of 8000lbs! However, I only do it once. Once it is in the game room, I rarely move it and if I do...HF lift table to the rescue!
As for the glass, fortunately, I rarely have to remove it. However, just yesterday, I did. I have an old woodrail pitch and bat. It represents one the worst case scenarios for getting the glass off. You have to open the coin door and then unscrew two long bolts held by wingnuts. Alas, I had torqued one of them down (with my fingers) to about 4200 ft lbs. It's an awkward reach trying to loosen those SOBs. Then you have to disconnect the jones plug since the pitch and bat controls are on the 'lockdown bar'. Because of that, you have to be careful about where and how you put it down. Now, you are ready to slide the glass out to lift up the playfield. The whole process probably took me a good minute, minute and a half. I thought to myself, how much extra would I pay to save 30 seconds? Not much. But as I said, I don't have to remove the glass very often...I mean if balls are getting stuck all the time, that's usually indicative of a design issue and is the reason why designers are forced to put in what appears to be superfluous posts and bits of plastic.
Therefore, while these things have some value, for me, I wouldn't use it often enough to pay extra for it. I would much rather have those $ invested in an interesting interactive playfield gizmo that I 'use' multiple times everytime I play the game.
My favorite aspects were the defandant asserting they can't get people to testify live even though the code "enables all parties in SEC litigation to issue subpoenas to compel the appearance at trial of witnesses located anywhere in the United States.” Further "Because both parties possess nation-wide subpoena power in this case, securing live testimony will not likely be “extremely difficult or virtually impossible.”
With the kicker being:
"Accordingly, the Court sustains Plaintiff’s objections with respect to the four witnesses designated for both live testimony and deposition testimony: Scott Allen, Robert Mueller, Dennis Concilla, and Andrew Federico. If these witnesses testify in-person, Defendant cannot also rely on their deposition testimony"
I mean, what the hell? Can't they keep their stories straight? What's the over/under on how long it will take the SEC lawyers to impeach them?
I put it at four minutes.
When I read the documents, I was immediately struck by the contrast between the two sides as it pertained to the use of precedent to support their position. One cited multiple, 'spot-on', precedents; the other.... not so much.
If I were the SEC, I'm not sure I would fight too hard to stop RM from testifying as an expert witness on the Pinball manufacturing business.
"So how many years have you been involved with manufacturing pinball machines?"
"I started the company in 2016 and the SEC shut us down in 2021, so five years"
"Any other experience with pinball manufacturing"
"Well I spoke with Stern, Spooky and JJP about the business"
"OK, so those are other pinball companies?"
"Yes"
"And do they manufacture pinball machines?"
"Yes"
"About how many do they make...in a year"?
"I'd say one to four"
"And how many did you make in five years"?
"We had lots of titles?"
"OK, but how many were finished and ready to ship?"
"Lots and lots of titles!"
"So, I take it none."
"We had ones with Zombies and Amusement Parks and the Goonies and Who and..."
"And when you spoke to other pinball companies, did they share their financial models, BOM, etc. with you?"
"Well not really, but..."
"So did you have a detailed budget and financial plans for your company?"
"We had sophisticated budget modeling software that we used"
"So an ERP system like SAP to control budget, inventory, production, etc.?"
"Well, not exactly"
"So what did you use?"
"Quickbooks."
"Quickbooks?"
"but it was the deluxe addition! Oh and did I mention we had lots of titles?...lots and lots of titles...lots and lots of purple too"
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Midlothian, TX