Alice in Wonderland
Zidware Pinball USA, 2013
Celts
Haggis, 2021
Magic Girl
Zidware Pinball USA, 2017
Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland
Zidware Pinball USA, 2012
Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland (Arcade Edition)
Deeproot, 2020
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Deeproot, 2020You're currently viewing posts by Pinsider JStoltz.
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Quoted from blueberryjohnson:Capt Robert "Pound It" Mueller esq of the SS Deeproot.
What an absolutely perfect epitaph* this is. Cheers.
*EDIT: Obviously epitaph as a metaphor for the end of his career/reputation, not his actual epitaph. I'm not a monster.
Seems appropriate that a company notorious for missing its own self-imposed deadlines would furlough its employees rather than having the sack to look them in the eyes and lay them off.
Why continue to drag employees along at the very unlikely prospect of a return to work? Does Robert just want one more missed deadline, for old time’s sake?
Quoted from pookycade:Edit: No animals pics unfortunately, my wife won’t let me have any.
I love my dogs, but… 50 pinball machines seems like a fair trade off.
Quoted from toyotaboy:here's a classic moment someone saved from a stream
Man, I watched all the “Ben Heck Show” content I could find back during his element 14 tenure, way before I got into pinball. I remember finding the videos related to this project, and even then, with almost no pinball context, I was confused why the long haired dude and supposed “expert” (JPop, obviously) wasn’t really… doing anything.
Side note, @benheck, love all your stuff. Those videos helped me get excited about engineering again, at a time when I was getting pretty burnt out at work.
Edit: crap, sorry— here’s our other Airedale, Louie. He likes to sleep and hates independently wealthy, self-important sociopaths.
9CB6F5B3-B453-412C-9247-D8C0C89E613D (resized).jpegQuoted from greatwichjohn:Well I was in talks from the early days. They would not allow me to work remotely part time. Wanted people there in Texas. No big deal since I wanted to make sure I retired from my 6 day a week city job. There will likely be another pinball job in the near future.From: john greatwich
Sent: January 15, 2018 9:15 PM
To: Craig Rushforth
Subject: Re: deeproot Tech Web Contact Form
I was on talks for about a year as they were getting the dream team together.
Are you.. bragging about “almost” being picked for the losing team?
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:So people who are not working with deeproot asked you to stop posting on the deeproot thread about not working with deeproot?
It’s the perfect crime!
Quoted from greatwichjohn:Correct as far as I know they continue to say they are not Deeproot or a contractor. Could be true or false. We are talking & if it is not anything to Deeproot than we will find out. Or it could be Raza builds coming soon. If not from them either Deeproot or another contractor. The lawsuit maybe a smokescreen to buy time working things out. Or a exit strategy, forced refunds, etc. by Deeproot, or even a rebirth. Who knows until they either go under, find a angel investor (seems to be popular with the big boys), sell off, or reborn.
Looking forward to Greatwich John’s Freaky Fast Sandwich— Err, Pinball Machines!
Quoted from frolic:Interesting, in their demo reel you can see footage made for Food Truck and some sort of Medieval game (both are obvious by their extreme widescreen that the deeproot system uses).
https://www.futurehousestudios.com/our-work
I'm kind of sorry we'll never see Food Truck.
And some leftover Octo-Manufacturing influences, it appears:
pasted_image (resized).png
EDIT: Oops, beat me to it!
Quoted from Quadrat:If you watch the video you can see the Octo-mfg at about 25 seconds in.
Perhaps a re-skin of The Champion Pub with two trim packages (one with JPOP as the bash toy and one with RM) could save deeproot's pinball divison?
"Custom sculpted Bobby Mueller bash toy responds with hyperbole and unmeetable deadlines with each hit!"
The Independently Wealthy Sociopath Pub (resized).pngQuoted from blueberryjohnson:Oooh. Which would you choose?
It's a tough call.. I think JPop's hair would probably cause a lot of maintenance issues, but I also think an opportunity to knock him around under glass would earn a lot of coin on location.
I'm leaning towards the Bobby Mueller package still, I think.
pasted_image (resized).pngQuoted from greatwichjohn:Going to step back from this thread. The personal attacks towards my trying to help out groups wanting to actually produce new pinball machines is not worth it here. Tired of the drinking, drugs, & paint fume crap insult crap on this site towards me. Same with I must be no expert on anything towards pinball.
Focus my time on actually helping others have more pinball products or games for sale. Never thought I would consider some of these posts a sewer, but it seems that way to me! So I will get back to enjoying playing pinball on location. I work with operators & owners keeping their games going. Likely I will be involved with some interesting pinball projects in 2022.
Even some pinball podcasts do not get their info correct. I will leave that one for people that know to see what was not said.
Fwiw, many have stated you seem like a good dude (and I agree with that). I think folks just don’t like having vague, cryptic “inside information” held over their heads. It’s a bad look, and doesn’t really attract much goodwill.
Saw “52 new posts” and thought someone got into a lengthy, inconsequential argument in here late last night. Wasn’t totally wrong, if you consider this whole SEC thing an “argument.” Certainly not inconsequential…
Looks like all the cumulative karma from our pet pictures and haikus finally paid off!
Quoted from BillySastard:My biggest question.
What kind of idiot gets married three times? And RM is only 46. That's a special kind of stupid right there. I can see twice, but after that it's just ridiculous. My FIL was married five times because he was a self serving POS narcissist who only though of himself. Sounds like someone else from this thread.
Just came here to quote that part of the thinkadvisor article… sheeesh!
Spouse Pro/premium/LE?
“Mueller also used more than $1.5 million of the Funds’ assets to pay hundreds of personal expenses, including his daughter’s private school tuition, vacations with his family, his second wedding, his second divorce, his third wedding, jewelry for both his second and third wives (including engagement rings and wedding bands for both wives)…”
If you take a couple steps back, it’s truly bonkers that we’re discussing SEC litigation in a “Boutique Pinball” subforum.
I would love for blueberryjohnson to be called as an expert witness due to his extensive record-keeping in this thread (and compensated with a modest per Diem throughout the trial, of course).
Also wouldn’t mind a special edition of The Ben Heck Show detailing all of this from his perspective. Bonus points for dramatic re-enactments by benheck himself.
Quoted from greatwichjohn:We will see if no assets of Deeproot are bought. I predict a very slim chance of that. Even a poor man would take a gamble of hitting Gold! Even REAL Pinball companies just to shelve anything that might be there might take a gamble. You guys seem to know everything, time will tell.
“I predict a very slim chance” is a very easy bet to make, dude.
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:If I didn't know any better, I'd think Robert is a blowhard dipshit who has no idea what the fuck he is doing!
Alright, let’s dig into THIS idea a little more!
Quoted from deeproot:Actually you can thank me for Elvira 3. —Robert
Quoted from thechakapakuni:This is hilarious. Wonder what’s Dennis & Sterns take on this. I guessing very different.
"You can thank me for for having the creativity to increase the number "2" to "3" for a beloved pinball property. We will soon be filing a patent for what we're calling pinCounting, and it will be game over for all other manufacturers." - Robert Mueller
Probably goes without saying, but the possibility that a handful of pinball enthusiasts performing armchair investigation might play some small part in Robert's prosecution (especially since the scope of this is much larger than just the pinball company)... truly intoxicating.
Quoted from benheck:Let's workshop a name for the inevitable documentary!
How to Not Make Pins and Alienate People
10 Things I Hate About Deeproot
Mueller (J)Poppins
The Assassination of Retirement Funds by the Coward Robert Mueller
Deeproot: Cultural Learnings of Pinball for Make Benefit Glorious Ponzi Scheme
Mueller Bobb: The Demon CEO of Cheat Street
JPop, Bob, and Two Smoking RAZA Prototypes
Quoted from Guidotorpedo:#imagesyoucansmell
Especially smellable when combined with the story about JPop at @bigehrl's place..
(https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/twip-is-deeproot-the-next-misadventure-or-a-pinball-revolution/page/479#post-6459217)
Some of these "sit" poses are asking for a porcelain chair to be photoshopped in...
Let's not lose sight of the real villains here. Nobody is photoshopping beloved designer Dennis Nordman onto toilets in the few minutes before their workday starts. That sort of treatment is reserved for Popadiuks and Muellers.
Jonathon Dropadieuce (resized).png
Edit: one more; don't tell my boss.
Centerfraud (resized).pngQuoted from belairjoe:the first thing you should do is have your own money to spend
A close second might be “don’t be a sociopath.”
Quoted from Richthofen:...Which means a maximum of $15,000,000 in profits. Robert was burning $750,000 a month in Salary. At $9 million a year in barebones operating costs, Robert would literally need to sell every new pinball machine in the world for this to work. It's what we call a "long shot"...
I love that some (well thought out) back-of-a-napkin math like this can so nicely underscore how divorced* from reality RM is/was.
*( 
)
Quoted from Scandell:I realize that in this thread...I come across as some kind of scorned ex-employee that is shaking my fist at Deeproot. That couldn't be further from the truth. I was just trying to originally shed light on the wide gap between the perception of Deeproot's financial stability in early 2020 with the actual situation. If you listen to Kaneda's Robert interview (477 I think) Robert talks about my posting on the boards and about how i broke certain "covenants" with Deeproot. (Weird word choice Robert. The legal term is "agreements". )
Since I left Deeproot, I started my own successful animation studio here in Utah. (www.studiozubio.com). I am an animation industry Veteran. 8 Years at Sony Pictures, 9 Years at Dreamworks animation, 3 years at Google... 3 months at Deeproot.
We have had a meteoric first 2 years and are registered content-creator vendors for some big players in both the film and tech industry. My network is solid, and I have many contacts in the industry which have helped me attain lucrative work.
Other folks from Deeproot Studios were treated way more unfairly than I ever was, and were effected much worse by this company's gross mismanagement. Which is the primary reason I felt the need to straighten out some facts.
Can I ask a dumb and probably irrelevant question? Why were you shown on the organization (I use this term begrudgingly) chart as Steve "Rigging?" Did they not have the decency to put your actual name on there, instead representing you as [First Name] [Technical Animation Role]?
Edit: ah, nevermind-- I thought you were the only one shown in that way. Looks like everbody was, I just couldn't see through the red X's. Disregard!
Quoted from Scandell:Robert gave/relocated all of Deeproot Studios (utah-based) expensive vfx-capable computer systems and servers to FutureHouse Studios. (The company that is falsely claiming to have created the Food Truck and Merlin's Arcade animations. (History revisionists.)) Knowing how fast and loose Robert plays with his business and toys...i doubt he did this with the appropriate paperwork or protocols. I wonder if this equipment will be located by the feds and liquidated to pay back the victim's stolen money.
Here's a better question than my previous one-- What was the rationalization for 'giving' this equipment away to FutureHouse? Does Robert have a stake in that company? The video assets created by you guys seem to be the only value that deeproot was able to generate while operating, so I have to assume he benefitted in some way by giving these away.. or did he sell them?
Quoted from benheck:Animations laid out at 4 : 1 ratio - who could use these besides CGC?
In order for something to have value you must be able to sell it.
Isn't it fair to say FutureHouse Studio is benefitting from using them as portfolio pieces, though? Felt like general consensus was the Food Truck animations were actually pretty cool (and I thought the character design for Merlin's arcade was pretty clever tbh), and now they're a feather in the cap of another company rather than a potentially positive footnote on the dumpster fire that is deeproot.
Also, wouldn't there be assets behind those 4 : 1 renderings?
Quoted from cpr9999:Is there an auction?
That post is a pretend scenario illustrating how much worse it could have been. In actuality I don't think anyone believes there are more than a couple prototypes in existence.
Quoted from Stuieb84:I present the "It could have been worse" scenario for pinball:
* the pinballs are then auctioned off by a liquidator appointed by SEC to recover losses to creditors.
Did we ever get a timestamp or any metadata from those vacant deeproot office photos? Did someone notice a calendar showing Dec 2020?
Has anyone contacted the building owner and just *asked* how long it’s been vacant? If RM was a difficult tenant, I wonder if the leasing company might share some thoughts on the whole ordeal.
Quoted from Roostking:Nobody cares at this point. dr pinball was a scam, people here believed and hyped the scam. The SEC finally said enough. Rats are jumping ship and or rewriting history.
Both threads will surely just limp along, until the usual suspects find another shiny to pimp. Buyer beware...
I see what you’re saying, but disagree— I think the timeline and context are still really interesting because they help us frame how RM was trying to be perceived at various points of hopelessness. Ex: were his emails and statements intentionally misleading, or was he still just foolishly bullish about his outlook.
I agree that there’s probably not much left to debate, but I still keep checking in on this thread because I find all the little details interesting. *shrug*
Quoted from yancy:I wouldn't put too much stock into someone being too lazy to replace a calendar. Parking snooper reported cars in the lot well into this year.
Hah, fair point on the laziness. Especially since December is usually the last month on a physical calendar and its not like folks rush to the store to replace it right away.
There’s some kind of joke in here about deeproot’s missed deadlines and old calendars…
Quoted from Mr68:The pictures were taken 4 days ago on August 28th and I posted them that same day.
Oh gotcha, thanks! Must have missed this when you first mentioned. Still has me wondering when the place was so significantly cleaned out. It obviously doesn’t have the “we’ll be right back” look to it.
Quoted from toyotaboy:so I found this through google image search. No way "farewell dinosaur" was a game, even JPOP isn't that scatterbrain. I'm guessing this represents all the artists leaving and doing one last collage project?[quoted image]
Could be my memory playing tricks on me, but I feel like I recognize that from an early version of deeproot's website? Seems like maybe that was a mashup of early concept art for their list of titles?
I see anthropomorphized foods (Food Truck), some vaguely zombie/alien aligned characters (RAZA), what looks like maybe some Alice in Wonderland type characters, futuristic characters (Nordman's Futuristic Theme), Some Arthurian looking fellas (Merlin's Arcade), etc.
Edit: Yeah-- here's a link: https://deeprootstudios.com/img/hero/slide-2.jpg
And the others:
https://deeprootstudios.com/img/hero/slide-1.jpg
https://deeprootstudios.com/img/hero/slide-3.jpg
Quoted from greatwichjohn:I received about $20 from a kind person tonight about my crappy pension. I do not ask for any help, & I will make my way out of this financial hardship. In the past David Fix was here in Halifax many years ago, & I tried printing a Paragon glass with uv inkjet with no white ink. That was the pioneering days with my playfield restorations. Nice to hear my name brought up by those in the industry. Still here to try & help those trying to get into the business.
There is no further news on the 2 groups getting into the business. If there is any IP sold from Deeproot Pinball. I will be here to help out if needed. I have no personal contact with JPOP.
I’d be happy to buy you a couple celebratory cases of “shitty pension beer” once Robert’s in prison.
Serious question: Does Canada have a social security program of some kind, to supplement your pension?
Things that won’t get you in trouble with the SEC: misuse of the decimal point and % sign on a 500 page pinball forum thread.
Things that will get you in trouble with the SEC: refer to this 500 page pinball forum thread.
Quoted from greatwichjohn:Deeproot needed a real PR person. Not Robert is what we have learned.
While true, this is like saying “The Titanic needed more seating.”
Quoted from snakesnsparklers:I thought the saying was: "if onlys and buts were candies and nuts, then everyday would be Erntedankfest."
I think the original saying (excuse any grammatical or translation errors here) is something like "If RAZA's were manufactured, Robert Mueller would still be on his way to prison for defrauding his 575 investors."
Quoted from greatwichjohn:When are more employees going to provide more info & pictures. You would of thought more info would of leaked out by now.
Are you viewing this thread from the shiny side of a one way mirror?
pasted_image (resized).jpegQuoted from ZNET:Could OF.
Not that I care, but since you're correcting him-- are you sure about this?
https://writingexplained.org/could-of-or-could-have
https://www.grammar-monster.com/lessons/should_of_would_of_could_of.htm
EDIT 1: I'm not pretending to have known better, I had to google to see what was correct (like most people I follow grammar rules on muscle memory, not rule memorization. Any time I stop to think too long about grammar rules I end up second guessing myself).
EDIT 2: I see you posted a while back about how "could of" and "would of" are nonsensical, so I guess I just missed the sarcasm font on this post.
Quoted from benheck:"I could care less" - That means you do care. At least a little (Weird Al)
"I couldn't care less" - meaning you don't care at all (correct)
Topical Examples:
Robert Mueller *couldn't* care less about his fiduciary obligations to those who invested in his 575 fund.
Pinside *could* (probably) care less about grammar in a 514 page thread about a twerp lawyer, cosplaying as Steve Jobs, who made the mistake of putting his sticky fingers into the world of tech, pinball, sports and entertainment.
Quoted from TreyBo69:In semi-related news, JPop going back to court within another two weeks
https://www.pacermonitor.com/public/case/31790337/Mitchell_et_al_v_Popadiuk_et_al
[IANAL Disclaimer] I get that there's probably a dozen other ways to figure it out, but it's kind of unnerving that the defendant's address (clearly his home) is listed here under the "Parties" tab while the plaintiffs' aren't. Just seems like a bad practice with respect to JPop's privacy/safety. I don't feel obligated to defend the guy obviously, just seems a little shortsighted.
Side note, at least he has ~6 Starbucks nearby to keep him busy.
Quoted from toyotaboy:his home address isn't hard to find, if you google "john popadiuk address" it's literally the 3rd link.
Yeah, fair point— just “feels” wrong to me still. Color me naïve I guess.
Quoted from Rarehero:The criminals are still alive & not in prison. Thread stays open until there is accountability for their actions.
And also Ben is not done with his driveway yet.
Quoted from phil-lee:Hey, I'd like to make an offer on that Prototype if nobody else wants it.
Who do I contact? Thanks
giphy.gifhttps://www.theverge.com/2019/12/9/21003445/coolest-cooler-update-business-tariffs-kickstarter
Tangentially related: forgot about the Coolest Cooler. Looking back on it now, it's interesting that a kickstarter can behave somewhat ponzi-like by selling product on amazon in order to fund the product that was owed to the kickstarter "donors." Would be curious to know what happened, if anything, to the $$ the CEO paid himself over the 5-6 years everything played out.
"The team ultimately put the cooler up for sale on Amazon before it even shipped all its owed product to backers. In the end, it shipped roughly two-thirds of the 60,000 coolers it owed people, the company said in a project update in March 2018."
Imagine if we had started seeing Magic Girls on amazon while that whole fiasco was underway...
Quoted from happyclan:Guys, I made my RAZA model. Preorders start today.[quoted image]
Flowiest, smoothest shooting Popadiuk design in the last two decades!
Observation: This thread may result in the sale and shipment of more cat litter robots than completed RAZA’s.
Quoted from proco:It's a ball lock and a fancy kickback. And it just looks weird.
Honestly, that's pretty cool.
Quoted from Roostking:They will not doubt, revolutionize the underground prison arms race!
Total Prison Occupancy Experience
Quoted from benheck:fat toxic asshole
Thought for a second this was one of the themes on the cutting room floor. As titles go, it does have nice flow.
This douchebag fleeced the retirement funds from 300+ people, burned through the vast majority of those funds while living out some kind of jet fueled “Silicon Valley Wannabe” fever dream, CONTINUED to accept investor money even after he knew the SEC had his number, and now wants the equivalent of a ~$150,000 salary (a salary far greater than he deserves, based on his track record) just so he can “continue his lifestyle uninterrupted” while this is all litigated, essentially riding this train wreck straight off the cliff it’s heading for without losing any speed.
It’s just amazing that a person like this has the goddamn audacity to ask for what amounts to an $8500/month “allowance” (made up of the very funds he conned from his investors) rather than sacking up, showing some fucking humility, and maybe living a less luxurious lifestyle than the one he’s been living to date.
Zero remorse, zero responsibility. What a spineless husk of a person. Embarrassing to the human race.
Quoted from benheck:"You see your honor, my clients were IDIOTS for buying into a fund where 50% of the money is spent in a very risky manner"
I mean.... It's true...
No disagreement here that his investors were probably not the most intelligent/cautious/discerning. It might lessen the legal implications of what he did to some extent (hope not), but obviously we can all agree he's still a terrible person regardless of the law (or any tricksy wording in his investor prospectus).
Murderers aren't considered "less murderous" when they pick easy targets. Dipshit con-artists shouldn't be "less con-artistic" when they do the same.
Quoted from JimWilks:Huh? Not defending this idiot at all. Hope he gets all the legal system can throw at him.
I think he's referring to you downvoting folks for what appears to be their use of curse words, regardless of the points they're trying to make.
Or maybe it's attacks on his character? Making it too personal?
Quoted from JimWilks:People can attack RM's character as much as they like. He deserves it all.
However, I have little use for those who use offensive language on this public forum. My kids read this.
Understood.. don't think the downvotes are the way to communicate that to people if you expect to impact some kind of change, though.
Also, and I promise I'm not just trying to be an a**, a quick google search yielded this, might be of use to you: https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/swearing-substitution/laijlgfcgafbmobgkfkgimjnfnnekfii?hl=en
Quoted from JimWilks:I think this has derailed the DR discussion long enough.
Can we get back to what will be our reaction when RM is given the inevitable slap on the wrist (i.e. little or no jail time) and then declares bankruptcy?
Prediction: he comes back to this thread from a public library computer and replies to every single insult/challenge, 1 by 1, starting with his infamous last post on page 79 and working his way through to page 525 while ignoring any new posts until he's worked off his substantial backlog.
He also regales unsuspecting library patrons with heady tales of his pinball crusades and his unjust persecution by the pinside mob, who are objectively the true villains.
Quoted from benheck:No matter what you say in front of your kids they hear worse in school and on Twitch.
So fuck it.
Put your money where your mouth is and change your name to BEN HELL!
You're welcome for this surely original joke you've never heard before.
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:I'd be glad to investigate if RM sends me the account info
Why don't you reach out and offer to help him? I'm sure you could feign sympathy and regret for this stroke of undeserved ill fortune that has befallen He Who Defined The Total Pinball Experience.
"Oh Great Reformer, Entertainer of Rich Single Moms and Vanquisher of Playfield Dimples-- furnish unto me your WordPress credentials such that I might bring order to your vast Internet Kingdom and preserve Your Legacy, Amen!"
Quoted from CrazyLevi:Nice airedale bro!
Thanks! Actually have two, Walter (1) and Louie (7). Idk how many people told us they weren’t good with kids (too many to count) but they’re both fantastic around our five month old and all our friends/families kids.
I wish one of them would take out our cat though.
15C60BD1-0BED-4814-9815-49C75FA0F9E5 (resized).jpeg7ECB18A5-D53D-4220-B1EB-21B3370BC35D (resized).jpeg
Hah, this is probably the fourth or fifth time I’ve posted them in this “Boutique Pinball” thread. Oh well. Sorry, not sorry.
Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:Our neighbors said that about their dobermans too, until one attacked the grandkid and tore its ear off.
You could rename him Mr. Blonde and tell people he's a Reservoir Dog.
O.O
He's also guilty of one of my least favorite small business tropes: using "we" when only one person is performing a job, to give the illusion of a larger operation more worthy of your business. Because surely it can't be disingenuous if more than one person is involved!
So many "small business owners" say things like "We are so happy to announce that we will now be offering free shipping!" or "We're working overtime at the shop this week to get your orders out before the holidays! Please be patient with us!" when in reality it's just some lady named Carol making bespoke cinnamon scented candles in her spare bedroom.
I have a lot more respect for business owners who call it what it is. IDGAF how many employees you have, I just don't want you pretending you need a payroll department to make yourself seem more legitimate.
Quoted from fosaisu:This remains one of the great exchanges in Pinball history. Good God, that man is a moron.
The PinStadium ads on the bottom really seal it for me.
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:I feel like the recent deeproot dumps have been so massive and steamy that some meaty morsels didn't get the attention they deserve. So I've decided to go back for closer reads to extract some choice nuggets.
[quoted image]
[quoted image]
“We have over $40MM in [non-liquid] assets backing up the enterprise…. So it’s not a matter of the company being strong or weak.”
This guy over here gauging the strength of a company on how many investors he misled, rather than, you know— the…. strength of the company.
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:Maybe that's a different forty million dollars. After all, as noted in the first screenshot, he used a majority of his own money to cover other shortfalls.
Even if it’s $40MM he earned through legitimate business (for example, several very large bake sales or a couple sizable paper routes), it’s nutso to claim the amount of money (legitimate or otherwise) backing your shitty business somehow makes it a “strong business.”
“Hey guys I know we can’t make payroll because I overextended the company with an expensive studio in Utah and just make bad decisions in general. But don't worry! The company is VERY strong! If you want proof, look at all this money that wasn’t generated by the company!”
Quoted from pookycade:How does the company continue to run ? Actually with Robert out of the picture it might have run better than with him there. I mean really it couldn’t be any worse with no one in charge versus him in charge could it ?
I’m having fun imagining him showing up to “work” each day, walking into his swanky-for-no-reason office and spending 6-8 hours at an over-specced gaming laptop, drafting up one of the many (alleged) messages he sent about not being able to make payroll that week.
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:Any others?
I’m curious about the decision making process around the Utah studio. Was this something Robert alone saw a business need for, or did a team of decision makers come to that conclusion together? The whole thing feels very flight-of-fancy, and I’m curious how major decisions like that were arrived at and presented to the company.
I ask because I’m under the impression that it was not always part of the “enterprise”, and I’m interested in the circumstances that would lead to “pinball startup deciding it wants to play double jeopardy by adding another startup to the mix.”
I suppose the same question could be asked to any of the deeproot companies that came after the investment funds “front.”
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:At the end of the latest Pinball Show (around 1:57) they go into an impromptu minute or so about this thread and the recent Robert leak stuff that's pretty funny: https://player.fm/series/the-pinball-network/the-pinball-show-ep-80-win-a-godzilla-banner-your-1-source-for-pinball-news?t=7035
Quoted from TreyBo69:TPN needs to give you a Pinball Pulitzer
For real-- or at least a guest spot on the next episode for you to summarize (if that's even possible) the story so far.
Quoted from TreyBo69:I'd like anyone to explain the whole deeproot story without sounding like a maniac.
There's just so much backstory and a million tangents you could go off on. It was a fever dream of a pinball company and it's hard to convey just how batshit they were
Maybe they could do a segment where blueberryjohnson reads off a bulleted list of the timeline of events until Zach/Dennis melt into puddles of incredulity, fatigue, and/or laughter.
Truthfully though, I think most folks who don't regularly read this thread would enjoy a summary of what's happened since the SEC entered the story-- I'd venture that most people already know about what came before that. What's happened since then hasn't seen as much pinball media coverage imo and is only getting more interesting as we go.
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:The Deeproot Files
Tag line: “The World’s First True Crime Pinball Podcast”
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:"Good example of the incompetence there: Robert hired his friends for most high positions. In 2018, upon moving into the massive San Antonio facility, Robert’s friend directed construction and extremely expensive renovations to get manufacturing area ready. After all that, it came out that the lease prohibited manufacturing so that money was wasted. One must wonder why an attorney and his buddies never checked the lease before beginning construction."
Yeah, but did the lease prohibit OCTO manufacturing? 
That one is truly nuts. Seems to suggest that there should (at some point) have been a search for a suitable facility to manufacture from, which has never even been hinted at to date.
Quoted from TreyBo69:That reminded me to check, this civil case is still chugging along slowly https://www.pacermonitor.com/public/case/31790337/Mitchell_et_al_v_Popadiuk_et_al
I didn't think "Zoom Meeting" could ever sound less appealing, and then I read "Appear Using Zoom for Government" and realized how wrong I was.
Quoted from TreyBo69:I'm very confused...
I was told this
[quoted image]
And somehow this
[quoted image]
Became this
[quoted image]
What?
My only logical conclusion is the slide was made before they realized Space Cadet is physically impossible. Subways not galore
Have to agree that this interpretation of “Space Cadet” seems to have been put together by a real… Space Cadet?
Gotta be careful here and clarify that I (and I assume we, generally) aren’t insulting the source providing this information. The details are much appreciated, even if some of it is a little confusing. Keep it coming, oh anonymous veteran of the Deeproot Wars!
What’s with “Recovable” Trust being on there twice? Should that not say “Revocable?” Why do I care? Help!
Quoted from SirScott:If $1.5 million gets you 10 years, what does $60 million get you?
I think whatever it is, theres probably a mode in Bible Adventures named after it. Lots of red and orange “lighting effects.”
Quoted from benheck:We should start a pool for sentencing.
Gambling without a license.
“Stay out of it, Ben!”
There’s something beautiful and poetic about wanting to use virtual reality to pursue a manufacturing strategy that was so separated from physical reality.
Quoted from EternitytoM83:Why is his signature a pretzel?
I wonder if he’s ever told someone to “Xav it for the judge, pal!”
Quoted from Mr68:How about a full feature Hollywood film instead.
Robert would be portray by Steve Carell of The Office. (thanks Levi)
[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]
This classic scene hits different when you frame it as Robert Mueller demonstrating one of the more underwhelming innovations (PinPod comes to mind):
Quoted from Hoteldrummer:You're going to tell me that if YOU worked there and saw there was NO manufacturing and NO REAL intentions of manufacturing the games that YOU KNEW people put money on, you would have the attitude of why should I say anything? Give me a damn break. Would you feel fine with getting a paycheck knowing its coming from a company that is lying and STEALING from people? You can say he didnt know or do I have evidence to back that up, but seriously, to think he didnt know or any other employee didnt know is insane. You really think NOBODY knew? BS!!!!
As for Steve, he got hired by another company which says he could have been hired by another company all along, why would staying to get a paycheck be the reason you completely ignore that there is NO manufacturing going on and you are doing streams of playing the game like everything is normal. If anyone was doing code for the game, doing marketing, doing ANYTHING, the damn janitor would be curious as to what is going on with the final product. But you, like everyone is just all about saying, "he such a great guy", and "he didnt know", and whatever else, F'ning nonsense. He knew, you know it, we know it, everyone knows it. He was under no obligation to speak out is the biggest sack of crap excuse ever made up. Just because you are under no obligation doesn't mean you shouldn't if you have a conscience!!! So if my neighbor is getting robbed and I see it, yeah, I have no obligation to call the cops, but I will! What a lazy response
Weren't you just saying you didn't care to read the 540+ pages of this thread to get the full story? Doesn't seem like great timing for an accusatory tirade where you make assumptions about what the employees actually knew at any point in this very long, very complicated timeline.
We all have the benefit of hindsight here thanks to a lot of people *finally* speaking up about their experiences working at deeproot. It's extremely unfair to judge the employees based on what we now know.
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:Perhaps a kindred innovation spirit just might?
https://www.pinballadventures.com/product-category/pinball-adventure-products/
That Pinball Boost product HAS to be parody. I don't think I can handle the pinball timeline where it's not.
Ah, yes.. This nonsense design was begging to be improved!
"Remove the durable, purpose-built car jack mechanism and replace with an air mattress. Voila! The material is five times the strength of a *regular* air mattress, making it approximately 0.05 times the strength of an automotive jack!"
$249.00 CA
(Available on Backorder)
Quoted from TreyBo69:Also home addresses to a lot of recognizable people. Maybe some things should be redacted from public court filings
Man, definitely agree. One of my biggest surprises/takeaways from loosely following all of this is how public so much of this information is.
Quoted from Inside:So there's a full list (70 pages) of creditors. JPOP is in there!
The grift continues
- link removed due to privacy concerns -
Hah-- "Kirby's Beer Store Bell" is one of the creditors...
Buying dive-bar beer on credit? Warning sign, imo! https://www.kirbysbeerstore.com/
Quoted from JodyG:The beer store is in Kansas...I am guessing the owner ordered a RAZA. Everyone who is owed a machine appears to be on the creditor list.
Makes sense.. I was hoping Robert ordered a keg of Wichita craft beer for an office party and never paid for it.. More of a fun narrative, but your theory makes a lot more sense.
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:To maintain the terms of the contract and provide that employee with continual involvement with the production of that machine and maybe another (Merlin's Arcade and Gladiator, I think), he formed a company called Farewell Dinosaur which would be owned by Robert but operated by this employee.
Interesting that Robert went to such foolish lengths for what are essentially B- and C-String titles (relatively speaking, within the Deeproot Pinball Universe), rather than for what might be considered more promising themes.
EDIT: Removed some thoughts on what the 12227 address might be, after realizing it was called out explicitly in the filing docs. D'oh! Too early for me, apparently.
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:Reminder: The first day of deeproot's octo-bankruptfacturing hearing kicks off Monday, December 20th, at 11 am central. I posted Instructions for joining live by webex or phone a little ways back.
Unfortunately, my holiday break doesn't start until Wednesday. And that means I tragically not be able to dedicate proper attention to this masterpiece when it is finally revealed.
So I'm calling on all the junior rooters out there to citizen journalist document this catastrophe within an inch of its life.
I don't care if you do it for Bobby Big Balls.
I don't care if you do it for Jpizzle or PopDaddy or whatever cringe nickname Robert said they called him (anyone remember what it was?).
I don't care if you do it with hopes of getting iceman six bottle caps for his dr store credit.
I don't care why you do it.
I just care that you do it.
Do it.
Should fit my work schedule today-- I've sent the coordinator an email notification and will try to join and take notes if possible!
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:Oh no. I hope not. Like I wrote, I don't know anything about bankruptcy court.
Two minutes would be appropriately disappointing.
Even so, would still love to see a crappy webcam feed of RM joining his 11 bankruptcy cases together. Perhaps he will be seated at a desk from Harbor Freight? Seated inside a PinPod booth for audio quality reasons?
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:This guy establishing legal precedents for something related to deeproot or is this some other case?
This is another case, I think they're running a little behind.
Quoted from TreyBo69:Can anyone understand what shes saying? Too many people unmuted making an echo
I had the same issue. Don't think she really said much beyond making the case for joint administration.. the "overview" she gave of the situation with deeproot and the SEC didn't really seem very substantive either.
I thought it notable that the guy doing most of the speaking in the prior case "chose to stick around" for the deeproot hearing.. as if he took a professional interest in it?
Blanking on his title, something like US District Attorney or some other vaguely federal sounding role?
Quoted from Hoteldrummer:I could care less about the timing, I was simply looking into this story after everyone already beat themselves up over it and made an obvious statement, why didnt anyone say anything? All I see is everyone defending Steve Bowden because "he is a great guy", "he plays really good", "pinball needs someone like him", "he has incredible pinball knowledge", "his playing skills are awesome", and on and on. Seriously, who cares about any of these reasons when its about so many people getting completely ROBBED!? All of a sudden nobody has any morals, integrity, honor and any loyalty to fellow pinheads and buyers? How stupid!? Pinball must be the only industry in the world where you can just pretend you dont know anything and watch all of your peers get torched and its ok because you have killer flipper skills. Some of these people worked at Deeproot for YEARS and youre going to tell me they knew nothing? I guess screwing over people is the norm for pinball and making up idiotic excuses for the people who either did it or could have stopped it is the norm. Dont bother with telling me about how companies run or how businesses do things, I've owned and ran my own for over 24 years and looking at this mess makes me sick. Yeah, Robert was a bully and I'm sure he had everyone sign NDA's and/or more, but seriously, there is no excuse for freaking EVERYONE to just make believe it was all sunshine and lollypops and watch this shitshow unravel. SMH.
What exactly are you asking for these former employees to have done? Nobody appears to have had any knowledge of the SEC stuff until after that news broke publicly. Until that point, all accounts from former employees pointed towards general ineptitude of Mueller, poor leadership, bad decision making, etc. Inefficient and foolish? Sure. Illegal? Not until the “end.”
There aren’t a lot of jobs to be had in pinball. To expect deeproot employees to release an anecdote about every little bit of company drama as it occurred is unreasonable. Many of these people relocated to San Antonio for this gig. Not everyone sits in a comfortable enough financial position to be able to risk their livelihood over this kind of thing. Robert was also notoriously litigious and a vindictive prick, so I would even say these employees were right to hold their cards.
Again, you’re posting with the benefit of hindsight (and job security). Redirect your outrage, man.
pasted_image (resized).jpegI'll bite one more time with a "hypothetical" about no one in particular, just a little thought experiment:
Imagine you are a well known name/face in the pinball hobby. You've contributed for years to the community, managing a website in your spare time that delivered pinball related content for free to that same community. You are also a ranked competitive pinball player in an era where other competitive players have found rewarding positions working for pinball manufacturing companies.
An opportunity arises that could put you in a key position at a well funded pinball startup. Your dream job. You accept. A handful of the designers for machines you've played extensively in the past are hired to work at the same company. Massive amounts of payroll dollars are thrown into creative teams to support the creation of the machines that these designers start laying out. You move into a large facility with plenty of space, suggesting significant growth is planned and you are getting in on the ground floor.
A few years pass. You've sunk a *significant* amount of effort into the job, but unfortunately a variety of dizzying circumstances beyond your own personal control have prevented anything from being released just yet. You're proud of the work you've done, but unfortunately it looks like it's still going to be a while before you're allowed to show the fruits of your labor to the public. You're still collecting a paycheck and there are no signs that the company is in trouble, so you keep your head down and continue to stay busy with whatever you're working on. You start to get frustrated with the changing guidelines from the guy running the company, but at least you still go to work each day and work on pinball machines, even if things are moving way slower than you or anyone else expected. You still like the people you're working alongside, so at least you have that going for you.
Eventually internal emails and slack messages start to circulate-- issues with cash flow and missed payroll dates. Yikes. But it seems like the guy running the company has explanations for it for now.. so you hold off on making any rash decisions. Your paycheck eventually gets to you.. late, but you get it. All is well for a while, then it happens again, and again. You're starting to get skeptical that the company is going to last much longer, but you would prefer to have something else lined up before jumping ship. This was your big opportunity to get into the pinball industry, and you're anxious about handling it wrong and becoming a pinball pariah. You reluctantly stick around as long as you can, knowing that sharing your experiences or your insider information might actually cause the company to go under, resulting in the loss of not just your own coveted pinball job, but the jobs of your coworkers who have done nothing wrong.
Things worsen. More missed deadlines. You no longer feel much respect or allegiance to the guy running the company at all. You worry about seeking employment from one of the other pinball companies because that could be seen as an indication or leak that the company is going south fast. Unfortunately you have to wait it out. Eventually the SEC case comes out, and you discover that not only was your boss a bad leader, he also fleeced retirees out of their life savings to fund this entire venture (among others). You feel a combination of anger and guilt for being even tangentially related to it. You quietly separate from the company and start seeking employment at another manufacturer, hoping to continue working in the industry. You consider sharing your experiences on pinside to clear your name and distance yourself from your former boss, but you know that this would reflect poorly on you as a potential employee at another manufacturer. You take the higher ground and hope that people give you the benefit of the doubt.
Most do. Some don't, but who cares.
Quoted from SnowGalvin:One of the squares is about shipping at least one RAZA machine to a paying customer by 'mid to late January,' so I'm assuming at some point Deep Root set this deadline in an official announcement (among their many 'deadlines' and announcements)?
I love that “not qualifying for a bingo square” can be added to deeproot’s Repertoire of Failures.
Quoted from JodyG:Being a home buyer and waiting a year after launch for a game is turning into the SOP for Stern now
Part of me knows I would enjoy the experience of being a “release” owner and being able to play different code updates as they are released, but the rest of me knows it’s usually at least 6-7 months for the 1.00 code to hit on some of these titles anyway.
I’ve got a Mando Premium coming in February and I’m hoping to be a Deadpool Premium owner by the end of ‘22 (fingers crossed). The long wait is a bummer, but it’s hard for me to to rationalize buying an LE or getting your name on a "rumored title pre-order list" just to get “early access” to the games.
Quoted from Rarehero:What a softball/nothing interview. I know “everyone loves Bowden”, but this interview just cemented my opinion that there’s something off about the guy.
Objectively, I think it’s a bad look to talk shit publicly about your former employer (regardless of how much they may deserve it). He (unofficially) represents another company now and I would imagine he’s conscious of that.
I wish he would spill the beans too, but I can see why he’s cagey about it. Would guess they talked before the recording about what he was/wasn’t willing to discuss.
Note: I know almost nothing about Bowden, just trying to see things from his perspective rather than that of this thread. (Shrug)
Quoted from Rarehero:I think he could have told some more interesting stories about his experience & how he sees it all in retrospect without necessarily talking shit. Jeff/Marty didn’t ask any interesting questions to even try to get that, though.
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:Yup. There were tons of questions they could have asked that I bet he may have answered (or answered partially). They just didn't ask them. Possible they discussed before the interview and agreed not to. But if that's the case, I'd hope it would be because Steve made that request, but because they proactively put it forward. But I wouldn't be surprised if it were the latter. Have always gotten that vibe with the folks involved and this subject (And I always loved me some Ryan C and Marty).
Agreed on both.
I do also get the impression that Steve is a less confrontational person in general. You never hear him taking bold stances or stating hard opinions on hardly anything in the first place, let alone topics of controversy... Especially compared to a lot of other people/podcasters out there. Not that there's anything wrong with that, it just doesn't make for good interview/podcast content.
Quoted from TreyBo69:The way people just keep saying Steve is a "nice guy" reminded me of my fraternity days during rush. When talking about guys we may invite to join, if the only way you could describe someone under consideration is they're a "nice guy" or a "cool guy" then you really don't know anything about them at all.
I've heard him on some pinball streams where he's complimentary of others and enthused about pinball. I don't really know Steve at all...
Hah-- We were guilty of saying "solid dude" in this scenario. "What does that even mean?!"
Quoted from Rarehero:I’m not advocating for confronting him or forcing anything out of him. I just wanna hear stuff like - what did he do for 3 years for 40 hours a week - especially near the end? Did he have any sense that things were weird? Are there red flags he didn’t see at first, but are now obvious? How does he feel about it all now in retrospect? Was he or is he still friends with anyone from DR? How did the AP job come about?
It seems like this would have been an emotional journey with some interesting stories. That’s what I want to hear. I want to know who this guy is & what his experience was like. I really don’t know anything about him other than he wrote books of rules & is crazy into tournaments. I honestly don’t understand what he really does or brings to the table at AP.
I guess the only real way to know would be to have someone directly ask him for this info and report back here. It's either "He was asked and declined" or "He was never asked." Maybe a job for the Retro Atomic Ponzi Adventureland True Crime Pinball Podcast (tm)?
Maybe Marty/Jeff would care to weigh in, if they're following along?
Timeline is fuzzy for me, so apologies if this is a dumb question.. Was there a limit to how long he was allowed to pay himself (from his investors' funds) that "living wage" he had previously negotiated?
Asking because "6 more months of inaction and opportunity for him to pay himself" is pretty hard to swallow.
Edit: I guess this just means the two cases won't be going on at the same time, so it's not exactly a 6 month extension.. but it's definitely adding months and months to the process (throughout which he's getting paid?)
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:On the money side, I assume the previously-issued accounts freezes continue, so this wouldn't unlock additional access to the contested funds.
Right.. no "additional money," but I thought he had previously secured himself a "living wage" equivalent to a ~$150k salary (couldn't find the source, but found a post of my own referencing it): https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/twip-is-deeproot-the-next-misadventure-or-a-pinball-revolution/page/524#post-6537693
Edit: Ah, here it was. $8500/mo. (I guess I assumed that meant net pay.) https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/twip-is-deeproot-the-next-misadventure-or-a-pinball-revolution/page/524#post-6537345
Edit: And I guess I also don't remember if that request was actually granted or not...
Quoted from NeilMcRae:Your pinball dollars hard at work!
Perhaps these PACER documents that keep dropping are the pinball "DLC" we've been waiting for!
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:Other options would be depend on savings or depend on others.
"Robert's Lunch Money," the Food Truck mode that never was.
Maybe I'm misremembering or misunderstanding that as well (that seems to be my MO). Looking at section 24 here.. who are these people to RM? https://www.sec.gov/litigation/complaints/2021/comp25179.pdf
Edit: Father and Stepmother, per this google search result yielding a blueberryjohnson post. https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/twip-is-deeproot-the-next-misadventure-or-a-pinball-revolution/page/466#post-6454497
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:Williams Crow Mask is the former name of an accounting firm now named Williams Steinert Mask.
[...]
It's easy to why Robert selected them.
[...]
But maybe he shouldn't have???
[...]
I suggest you all start dieting immediately. You may be in line history's biggest serving of crow.
Quoted from Mr68:Now that you have established a debate timeline, I will respond in 3 weeks!
When the time comes, be sure not to use your keyboard, lest you be deemed a keyboard commando!
Also, might I suggest downplaying the significance of the disagreement and claiming the delay was due to you having better things to do? Perhaps pepper in a few jabs about “having a life?”
(Standing up from a crouched position over a dead horse, holding a stethoscope.)
Quoted from greatwichjohn:”…the horse is not dead as far as I know at this time.”
At this 10 minute break, I have to ask-- what's the "goal" here for Pullman, other than getting to hear the 5th amendment invoked a nauseating number of times? get Mueller to trip up and self incriminate? Make him feel more like the garbage person he is? Gain a slightly better understanding of the context/scope of what he might be guilty of? All of the above?
Quoted from RCA1:He means the "American Greed" TV documentary show, which has had episodes about a number of ponzi schemes and other frauds, it's really good and Derproot would be a great episode.
(Eyes un-narrowing.)
Quoted from bobukcat:Another really sad part is he says in that interview that he suffered some setbacks in his treatment because he lost his insurance when Deeproot closed down
This is extremely hard to stomach. On top of all the other ways Mueller ruined or derailed peoples lives, his delusions of running a pinball company actually impacted someone's access to desperately needed health care?
An argument could be made that the healthcare system in the US is partially to blame, and that there may have been other ways Barry could have bridged the insurance gap, but at the end of the day I still hope Mueller feels the guilt for this piece of deeproot fallout. For his debauchery to have such a severe impact on another person's quality of life is nauseating.
I'll amend my statement to read "I hope this is brought up on the record at some point and Mueller is at least forced to hear about it."
I get that he's not a "take responsibility for one's actions" kind of guy, just expressing my (now elevated) disgust.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:You never see Miley Cyrus walking around with a Who t-shirt on.
In before "The Next Stern Pin" thread becomes flush with paparazzi photos of Miley's licensed Tees!
Quoted from TreyBo69:Also it looks like there was a mech to be under the right flipper? Not sure but something is on the cad sketch there. Nordman has had some creative ideas in drain areas (RIP physical Manos Hand of Fate wheel on EHOH)
I feel like I remember a post at some point that showed a ball save kickback solenoid down near the drain, I guess to physically return your ball “from” the drain rather than plunging a new one for you. Pretty novel idea actually. I think that might be what’s shown here…
Edit: Yeah, here’s the post with a little virtual pinball mock-up, actually: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/twip-is-deeproot-the-next-misadventure-or-a-pinball-revolution/page/521#post-6524408
Quoted from ForceFlow:I just had a thought--are the innards for that game intact? If anyone has a chance to visit, it might be a good idea to check in case the innards were messed with or removed to use in other projects...
What if Mueller turned this AMH into a Horcrux?
Think we should expect to hear from legal representation or Bobby himself tomorrow? Fifth Amendments only?
Either way I’m weirdly looking forward to it. I hope Xavier brings a little sass and a lot of condescension.
On the zoom, counted 3 neckties so far, seems like this might be pretty serious!
Edit: One appears to be a double windsor. Yikes.
Judge considering opening discovery partially (allowing depositions from non-Mueller entities)... that would be very, very interesting for the pinside gallery.
Do the legal gurus monitoring this thread have any insight as to what we, the thirsty public, might get to see/hear of these third party depositions? Will they flow through the same channels, and will we be able to listen in like we did today and previously?
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:Lunch break - I see we're now down to 369 lots...
https://mtdauctions.hibid.com/catalog/352536/mel-davis-auctions-232---deeproot/
Is it possible that some of the lots were claimed by creditors? Machinery sold to deeproot but never paid for?
The whole Turner thing feels like an “old guy knows a younger person who is ‘good at computers’ and then starts relying on them for anything and everything that is even tangentially related to technology, qualified or not” kind of situation.
Oh, you know excel? Can you manage my investment databases?
Heard of pinball? Want to program our machines?
Used a toaster? Can you take care of getting us vegan pop-tarts?
Question for the Sewer Dwelling Legal Team:
In these Stalking Horse agreements, does having insider info or a conflict of interest factor into a court's decision to approve the sale of assets? In the example below it says that "the debtor took the somewhat unusual step [in] seeking the appointment of an examiner to investigate the appropriateness.... of the sale"
"In the Medical Software Solutions case the Utah bankruptcy court found "good-faith purchaser" status where an insider was the stalking horse/lender. In Medical Software, the stalking horse/lender was a pre-petition investor in, and later a pre-petition lender to, the debtor. As the debtor slid into financial distress and a management dispute, the debtor hired an investment banker to sell the business, which attempted for about a year to market the company, without success. With no "white knight" in sight, the debtor filed a chapter 11 case and sought leave to sell the business to the pre-petition investor/lenders (who also had had representatives on the debtor's board). The debtor took the somewhat unusual step of seeking the appointment of an examiner to investigate the appropriateness of the DIP financing to be provided by the pre-petition investor, as well as the proposed sale to the same group (DF lenders), specifically to preempt any issues of conflict of interest. The DIP financing required a sale within 60 days of the filing, or a default would occur."
Followup: Is there a way (other than asking this question on the WebEx) to let someone know that the TuYo Holdings connection is suspicious? An email address, perhaps? I don't think I have a big enough set of cajones to speak up on the WebEx and identify myself as "Some guy from the internet."
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:What would you want to say?
I'll go back and organize my thoughts better ("my" thoughts just being a mashup of others' thoughts in the previous page or two), but something along the lines of the following seems appropriate
"If Chris Turner is affiliated with TuYo (Turner-Yost), and Chris Turner also managed investment and life policy data for deeproot while it was in operation (TurnerLogic), then it would be reasonable to suggest that TuYo has privileged/insider information into the mortality of individuals covered by these life policies (and therefore their value). My concern is that TuYo may be in a position to profit considerably by purchasing these policies at a lower price, resulting in less money recoverable for return to defrauded investors and creditors."
This makes a few assumptions obviously (I think most of this line of thought comes from 
Inside and their comments about TurnerLogic's involvement at deeproot ), but I'd argue it's worth someone (Trustee?) doing the due diligence.
Post from Inside I'm referring to here: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/twip-is-deeproot-the-next-misadventure-or-a-pinball-revolution/page/583#post-6832264
Quoted from iceman44:I think I know the connection with Yost but don’t want to say just yet. Have to confirm it. Call is in
Also iceman44 seems to have a lead on Yost that he hasn't yet disclosed; I would hope he might be able to discover/share that in advance of the 2pm CST hearing today if there's a chance that it is relevant and time sensitive.
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:Sounds good. Lawyers can likely assist with most effective way. My thought was to say it seems like the disclosure of Chris Turner's relationship with the debtor grossly understates the reality of the situation, based only what you can glean from publicly available information (statements from debtor, deeproot / policy services inc websites, that for years Turner Logic used dr HQ address as their own in many places online, including their own website within the past month). It's your understanding that Chris Turner / Turner Logic built the financial systems for policy services / deeproot, made other websites for RM for years, was in charge of the programming for all of deeproot pinball, which includes creating the underlying systems and code for dozens of in development titles per RM, etc.
See if the judge is satisfied he has been provided sufficient information to make an informed judgment on this expedited hearing.
I'll try to voice a combination of these concerns in the call if possible, but it's very likely that I won't be able to join the call today either due to work conflicts.
If anybody else is available and willing, please feel free to voice a combination of blueberryjohnson's thoughts in post 29230 and the ones I scrapped together in 29228. Just want to get the info presented, doesn't matter who it's coming from.
Quoted from Barr993:I listened in and was surprised there weren't more on the call.
Why would TuYo combine forces, pay $28k in premiums up front without protection and $540k escrow? There has to be a hell of an upside here.
Turner was also smiling like a creep the whole time I was able to join, which doesn’t help his case in my mind.
Quoted from benheck:They're either vultures or crooks.
4241BF6B-2B86-4DA7-838B-DDF57BC47F1C (resized).jpeg
Edit: I have no idea how to get rid of the sideways one. Oh well.
Quoted from Mr68:Go to Edit Post. Scroll down below your comment, your pictures will be displayed and each will have a watermark on them. Click on the X
[quoted image]
Hah, yeah— but for some reason I don’t have that on the sideways one.
Whatever, moving on! Is someone going to file an objection on this sale or what? Seems like Inside would be best suited for the job…
85504362-57E6-4BBD-A4C5-A2FCDD37D6CE (resized).jpegQuoted from greatwichjohn:Likely a number of players are looking at something, nothing, or go their own route.
Greatwichjohn over here betting on black, red, AND green.
Quoted from ForceFlow:Tuyo has paid $28k in premiums so far to make sure the insurance policies don't lapse. The judge noted that this was done without any court order protections, which he seemed to be impressed by.
I think a couple people have raised this particular question but I don't know if we've seen an answer yet.. how would TuYo have even had the knowledge of what policies needed these payments, if not for *drumroll* insider information?
I guess a logical explanation would be that the trustee does have this information, but I haven't seen/read/heard any indication that the trustee has been acting as the policy steward. If the trustee does have the info, would he be the one to accept/decline earnest money (unprotected) from TuYo to cover the premiums during the DR bankruptcy process? Is this perhaps why TuYo is the favored stalking horse bidder, their willingness to front money to cover the premiums and prevent policies from lapsing?
It would make sense for the Trustee to agree to this as it preservers the value of the remaining assets, but obviously Turner's (alleged) prior involvement directly with the policies makes it very questionable.
General question: is TuYo's behavior here "normal" for bankruptcies of investment firms that deal in life policies? That is, do speculators often swoop in to secure bulk life policies like this?
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:Only gave it a quick skim, but it would appear the judge granted TuYo pretty much everything they wanted.
There's worthwhile stuff in here to pull out including info on the next hearing and an April 4 deadline for anyone interested in filing an objection to the judge's approval. I can't dig into now. Sharing now in case others can.[quoted image]
These jumped out at me:
1) Objections
2) Where to send questions about the sale (perhaps a good resource for those of us non-legal folks with an interest in this stuff)
3) in Force policies listed
4) lapsed policies listed
3 and 4 seem to confirm the trustee already had knowledge of the policies whether TuYo did or not. Maybe the trustee would have been willing to share the deets with anyone who expressed a buying interest, pursuant to a sale.
This might squash our theories on Turner acting on some kind of insider information here, though I guess it doesn’t rule out Turner having additional information on the identities or mortality of any of the insured (from his alleged days as a DBA for Robert’s custom policy “services” database).
DAD1E2C6-506A-4640-8649-9604F450CAE2 (resized).jpeg20D40D62-E2FA-40A1-A847-3A7AA6170CDE (resized).jpegACF3DB78-4F5E-45AA-A7F3-4DBCF76EAA88 (resized).jpeg9C72CD18-F604-4DB2-B221-18BF9D1F452D (resized).jpeg
Did some more Jeeves Asking, thought this was interesting but I won’t pretend to have fully understood it. The highlighted sections seemed particularly noteworthy. Obviously not a lawyer, so maybe none of this applies. Regardless:
40B9BDE6-505E-4CD7-88A4-077289BD2C78 (resized).jpeg529A0BA1-D2B8-4246-B357-D0704CE982F8 (resized).jpegQuoted from blueberryjohnson:If anyone with raised eyebrows wants to raise objections before this thing is finalized, they'll need to do before the April 4 deadline. I also assume these objections will have carry the burden of needing to be more persuasive to the judge to affect a course change than had they been filed before the issuing of this order
I don't know that anyone other than former DR employees with knowledge of Turner's (alleged) custom policy database administration would be in a position to object effectively... The only objectionable thing I'm seeing is (maybe) TuYo's manipulation of the sales approval process by not properly disclosing (alleged) prior knowledge of the policies.
Part of me wants to file an objection via email to Pulman (based on cobbled together hearsay from this thread and a general "hey maybe look a little closer at this guy plz" vibe) but I also don't want to spoil the chances of someone with a more compelling objection (former employees with better intel) to succeed.
Quoted from benheck:So what, they give geezers a cash buyout of their life insurance? For obviously far less than it's worth. Then pay the premiums and hope the person dies as soon as possible?
Sounds like the Twilight Zone episode with the button box.
It’s even worse when you go back and read Mueller’s emails about missed payroll and the way he refers to it as a revenue pipeline.
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:Do you think your reaching out about this would decrease the chances of success if others did? I'd assume the opposite (plus, I wouldn't assume anyone will reach out, so favor shying on the side of someone saying something if they think there is something to say).
I have no idea what to think.. It's such a niche process and I barely qualify as an idiot on a good day. I'm just leery of frustrating the trustee, the judge, or one of the trustee's lawyers by being a clueless peasant with a poor understanding of the process, sticking his nose in and complicating their jobs.
I also really don't want to become "involved" since the only grounds I (we) have for an objection are tenuous without evidence, being secondhand info from a from a former employee on a pinball forum. I'm anxious about what might happen if one of us submits an objection and it *is* taken seriously, does that mean we would have to remain involved until things are settled, identify ourselves by name, etc? As interesting as this whole deeproot dumpster fire is, I'm not sure I want to become an actual participant.
Would an anonymous objection be taken seriously? Serious question.
Quoted from TreyBo69:Why not just send the SEC lawyer an email with your concern?
Ok, you convinced me. We'll see what Mr. David Nasse has to say in response.
Quoted from benheck:We all (myself included) jump to a conclusion that Turner Logic is some backdoor for Robert to reclaim his stolen fortune.
But thinking about it... Robert is an idiot. If he was a skilled scammer he wouldn't be in this situation. He would have been "spending" money on fake invoices, not buying an Anytime Fitness level of treadmills.
Maybe Turner being really close just means they know the best way to gut this fish?
The Mueller backdoor theory is definitely just irresponsible speculation, imo.
But the “Turner not being forthcoming about his knowledge of the life policies and using it to get an unfair advantage in the bankruptcy sell-off” theory is still very compelling and concerning.
Edit: trying to make sure I keep emphasizing “theory” and use the word “alleged” here.
Quoted from Roostking:No, when it comes to this scumbag who would rip off grandma, any speculation is warranted.
I mean, I don’t like the guy either… Just trying to stick to the stuff we have info/sources on.
Quoted from JStoltz:Response from Mr. Nasse, polite but predictable. I suppose I will forward the same message to Mr. Pulman, unless anyone wants to talk me out of it.
[quoted image]
I did go ahead and send an email to Pulman explaining the general community concerns, linking to a few posts in this thread and providing context.
Referencing Inside and the post about TurnerLogic's investment portal (which was, suspiciously, removed from TurnerLogic's portfolio and is now immortalized on the waybackmachine:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/twip-is-deeproot-the-next-misadventure-or-a-pinball-revolution/page/583#post-6832264
Referencing more thoughts from Inside on why this is concerning:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/twip-is-deeproot-the-next-misadventure-or-a-pinball-revolution/page/584#post-6832538
Referencing ForceFlow summary of March 16th hearing:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/twip-is-deeproot-the-next-misadventure-or-a-pinball-revolution/page/585#post-6836586
Referencing ForceFlow's comments on how Turner seemed to have downplayed his involvement with deeproot and omitted mention of the investment portal:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/twip-is-deeproot-the-next-misadventure-or-a-pinball-revolution/page/585#post-6836608
I did get a response from Pulman just a few minutes ago. His recommendation was that a proper objection be filed by April 4th. I think this is where I reach my comfort limit with the process... Hopefully Inside (or someone else with firsthand information) is willing to file a proper objection.
The response from Pulman also seems to say "Uhh, You got someone else we can sell these things to, wise guy?" to which I obviously have no good response. I replied to Pulman thanking him for his time and letting him know I'd pass his response along.
pasted_image (resized).png
I also made sure to highlight the removal of "deeproot Funds portal" from TurnerLogic's portfolio, logged by web.archive.org, and the lack of references to it in TuYo's purchase agreement's disclosures. Looks to me like that's Section 6 of Exhibit 3, where the purchaser's relationship with deeproot is only mentioned in the final bullet of the section. This bullet seems more about "ruling out any chance the debtor could benefit from the sale" and less about "purchaser access to privileged/inside information." Anybody else see any other areas of this document with disclosures about the relationship between Purchaser Principal (Turner) and Debtor (Deeproot)?
https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/61608049/85/deeproot-capital-management-llc-and-deeproot-capital-management-llc/
Purchase Agreement Blurb (resized).png
Alrighty, 90 minute "lunch break" for this nonsense is over.
Quoted from nate1981s:Is anyone going to address the whiteboard numbers and what they mean? $450,000 for wire harnesses? How can that be right? 100k for coin doors? What is going on here?
Looked like that was the cost for 1000 units organized by “big ticket item.” So about $100 per coin door times 1000, $450 in wiring harness times 1000, etc.
That at least gets the order of magnitude closer to correct, idk if that’s realistic either though.
Quoted from galore2112:They’ve got the most unexpected equipment. Why in the world did they buy a pick-and-place machine and an industrial grade reflow oven?
I’m half surprised they didn’t have a full PCB etching setup for 8-layer 3 mil trace/space with laser drills.
Have they never heard of PCB prototyping services???
Forgot who said it a few pages back, but it's pretty accurate so I'll say it again-- buying the stuff for a project is the fun part. Especially when you're paying for it with someone else's money. (Edit: It was KerryImming https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/twip-is-deeproot-the-next-misadventure-or-a-pinball-revolution/page/579#post-6825839)
Robert was basically playing supermarket sweep with manufacturing equipment. The Pick and Place machine was his version of a frozen turkey.
Quoted from indypinhead:I have 4 cnc machining centers in my home shop. I have rotary phase converters, (15HP & 40HP) to provide the needed 3 phase.
[quoted image]
I’ve got a DeWalt contractor table saw with no stand, if you’re ever interested in trading.
Quoted from goingincirclez:...stupid and silly and campy with appropriate humor to boot.
The most beloved classics all have an underlying humorous, not-taking-themselves-too-seriously element that simply conveys FUN.
For sure! Batman 66, Deadpool, AFM, Medieval Madness, Monster Bash... all owe their success at least in part to the way they don't take themselves too seriously. I think part of the reason I don't even care to play Avengers Infinity Quest is that I know I'm not going to find myself smiling much.
I'd argue that's why Guardians of the Galaxy (the movie) was such a hit when it came out, establishing the (now) trope of using genre music to lighten the mood, working in more humor than drama, etc.
Quoted from SantaEatsCheese:Next pile of pinball junk up $3277 with 45 bids and 5 minutes left.
[quoted image]
Nice! Some of it is even pre-trashcanned!
Quoted from iceman44:Reached out to the bankruptcy trustee, bidding is closed on April 4th for the 8 LI policies. He replied back re help on due diligence. Plan to do that early next week.
Can you elaborate on this? What due diligence does the trustee need help with? Are they taking a closer look at TuYo for downplaying prior involvement with the (now removed from TurnerLogic’s portfolio) deeproot investments portal?
Also, former deeprooters, please consider filing an objection if you feel strongly about the above. Counsel for the trustee is willing to hear what you have to say.
Quoted from iceman44:How and where to get a look at the details on those 8 policies.
And I’ll be inquiring about the process leading up the sale with Tuyo orchestrating the whole thing
Filing a formal objection? If anything there should be more time for additional legit bidders to enter the process for the sake of the creditors getting best value
I’m starting to feel like a crazy person focusing on the Turner/DR relationship, but I do think it’s objectively suspicious and worth more attention than it seems to be getting. Very interested in anything you might learn about how they came to be involved.
I am no lawyer but I continue to think that it borders on “manipulation” to omit mention of the ‘deeproot investment portal’ in any of the purchaser disclosures.
I recognize that the bankruptcy trustee probably doesn’t care if the stalking horse bidder has insider information (being more interested in liquidating the assets), but I’d argue that further digging w.r.t. TurnerLogic seems like “due diligence” under these circumstances.
Quoted from iceman44:What is the “Deeproot investment portal”?
I missed that. But yeah, I don’t get the Turner thing either.
How does he even know what buying LI policies are about and how much to even bid.
Here’s a copy paste from the email I sent Pulman (credit to @Inside)
The portfolio on TurnerLogic's website has been at some point modified to remove references to deeproot Funds. If you compare the current portfolio (Link #1) with the web archived version (Link #2) you can see that it did exist at one time and was removed. Again, just adds to the suspiciousness. It is possible that it was removed from the website to distance Turner from deeproot after the SEC case broke. I can understand removing it for PR reasons but would have expected to see it disclosed more directly by TuYo in the purchase agreements.
Current: https://turnerlogic.com/portfolio/
Archived: https://web.archive.org/web/20170609173707/http://turnerlogic.com/portfolio/
Quoted from iceman44:I don’t get it either but I’m hoping trustee can shed some light on how it evolved to this point
Keep in mind that if the suspicions are true, you may be the person in the best position to prevent a guy (whose best idea has been a bespoke snack service) from becoming an overnight millionaire on the backs of others.
Definitely ask the trustee/counsel what he thinks about the redacted "deeproot funds investment portal" from Turner's website.
Quoted from TreyBo69:Skimming it, this is probably not going to trial till after July 2023
I had this thought over the weekend-- What the hell is Bobby doing between now and prison? Surely he will need an actual job sometime soon, right? Is he even allowed to practice law atm?
Did he find a carwash to work at?
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:Disappointing news from SEC land
[quoted image]
Hopefully I/we didn't let the cat out of the bag by reaching out to Nasse and acknowledging the existence of a 600 page thread of sewer-folk following along closely. 
Quoted from iceman44:They don’t give a shit. Mueller does though. He hates reading this and you know he does
Speaking of "they," have you talked to Pulman about TurnerLogic any more? You mentioned you would be helping Pulman with the due diligence (15 boxes of paperwork) early this week. Haven't heard anything yet-- Care to share any details?
Yes, I'm still beating this drum...
Quoted from benheck:Fire and Brimstone looks like a Jpooper game.
Looks like a spelling bee with all those shot ladders…
Reminder 1: Today's the last day for bids on the in-force life insurance policies, if anybody wants to beat TurnerLogic's offer of ~1.25M or whatever it was. iceman44 said he'd share some details with us after bidding closes as well.
Reminder 2: Last day for objections to be filed (re: the sale of the policies to TurnerLogic) is next Monday 4/11. So again, if any of you former deeproot employees feel strongly about Turner going from mild mannered software guy to life insurance speculator overnight... now would be the time to voice those concerns to the counsel for the trustee in the bankruptcy case (Mr. Randall Pulman at [email protected]).
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:TuYo's stalking horse agreement on the basis that it's bullshit.
Wooo!!
Sorry if you already specified, but it's been hard to keep up the last 36 hours... what's the time of the hearing on Monday? Might need to do some meeting moving myself.
Quoted from greatwichjohn:Same sort of private staff that let I guy drown in a spit hood from drinking.
Ah, I think I've cracked it:
"Same sort of private staff that let a guy drown in a city pool from drinking."
Quoted from homebrood:No I think he meant spit hood! They use those to cover someones face if they are spitting on the cops trying to arrest or detain them!
This thread has it all, folks!
I simply assumed beer + greatwich = typos, and combined that with the numerous reminders that he used to work for the city pool, pension, beer, etc. Seemed like a good guess at the time.
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:Feel like the calm before the storm to anyone else?
Waiting for 2pm on 4/11:
pasted_image (resized).pngQuoted from blueberryjohnson:New trustee filing related to Monday with updated witness and exhibits list. I've got to get back to not this, so someone else should compare it to the original one to see what's changed![quoted image]
Looks like just an addition of Exhibit, #15:
483EB9C9-1B8C-4828-B9BE-E3CF27EBB98D (resized).jpegProbably the most interesting part of the response is the trustee asserting that TuYo’s disclosures were sufficient (not really acknowledging the whole financial inside info thing). The response generally has a “yeah they might have insider info and stuff but like nobody else is bidding and this kind of isn’t our concern anyway” vibe.
B28D0C89-CBBD-4447-9D56-E3CBC35212D5 (resized).jpeg
For ref, here’s paragraph 23 of the objection;
8AF744AE-F4E3-46B2-B880-87AE0432355F (resized).jpegQuoted from blueberryjohnson:Real quick: another interesting thing is that after methodologically responding to the first 30 paragraphs of the objection, they then got bored, ran out of time, or otherwise fucked off, and electing to skip paragraphs 31-39 (all juicy) and jump straight to their conclusion.
The ol’ “most interesting part is what’s missing” trick, always gets me!
Also I’m gonna split my vote between “ran out of time” and “otherwise fucked off.” The former being my actual guess and the latter just being fun to type out.
I'm in for the next hour or so; probably won't be able to play-by-play, but I will be "committing a lot of the audio to memory."
Noteworthy: Trustee disclosed that there is only $4900 in the trust account for this case, most of which is from a federal tax return.
Not news, but he also disclosed that premiums paid by to keep policies alive by TuYo >$28,000.
Quoted from JodyG:Pretty boring so far...but I see Mr. Iceman in attendance! Give 'em hell!
Is Iceman the gentleman in the maroon "Built Ford Tough" shirt?
Quoted from JodyG:Nope...he can out himself if he wants though.
I was just kidding, Jack Daniel (maroon shirt guy) is just my favorite so far. Lots of great stuff coming from his video feed.
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:Jumping in between calls - where are we in terms of the witness list agenda? Guesses on how long this will go?
We're on #2 still, W. Drew Mallender.
I admire the tenacity of the woman making the (many) procedural objections but there's definitely a lack of experience/clarity/confidence bringing her down
At the beginning, after her little opening speech of objections, Judge Parker gave a prepared statement about how this was about approval of the sale and not about Robert Mueller (reiterating that this sale in no way benefits him). He still did not acknowledge the TuYo disclosures in the purchase agreement and the omission of the investment portal, which is frustrating. I'd like someone (him) to acknowledge that at some point.
Just posting for timestamp purposes; questioning regarding Chris Turner's services started around 1:26 in.
[After acknowledging that Turner did tell Pulman's firm about the Investment Portal he developed for Mueller, woman (sorry, I don't know her name/title) asked if they did any further investigation into the nature of that portal]
Mallender said he did not further investigate the specifics of the investment portals Turner developed for Mueller.
"Why?"
[Long, awkward, frustrated pause from Mallender]
"Why would we?"
Missed the details, but something was mentioned about Mueller/Deeproot being partial owners of a building worth ~$5.2M. I think that's news to me, but I'm no Blueberry Johnson.
Just got a teaser of a new bidder from Mrs. Counsel. She had a dramatic reveal in mind but judge asked to finish with cross examination of the Trustee (Lowe) before calling the new bidder/witness.
Quoted from TreyBo69:I think it was Patrick Lowe? Idk the lawyer arguing for the sale.
Yep, that’s who it was. After a warning from Pulman (his counsel) not to disclose anything about the TuYo relationship that Lowe learned through Pulman (attorney client privilege, I guess).
Turner acknowledged that he had access to the data about the policies, which he described as high level information..
I didn’t hear a clear denial of his access to lower level information (policy details) but he does seem to be handling himself pretty well. Fwiw I don’t get any slimeball vibes from him as a witness, but I still can’t square the circle that is “software guy becomes policy speculator to the tune of >$1M overnight.”
Turner “I am not an insider as defined by the US Bankruptcy Code”
Turner’s description of the investment portal was a database designed by his team for Mueller, containing information about investors and investments made. Allowed mueller to track policies and allowed investors to log in and view the status of their investments.
Turner admitted that the database contained policy details and that he “doesn’t make a habit of snooping in his clients files” (loose quote) but that he did technically have the access to do so.
Quoted from ForceFlow:She seemed to be fumbling along the entire time, and didn't appear to have a clear goal or target. I felt like there was a full hour of questioning that went absolutely nowhere and was just a complete waste of time. I would've been very upset if she was supposed to be representing my interests.
It kind of had the cadence of someone reading this thread out loud, trying to force fit everything into a single cohesive point.
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:Any enjoyable side content this time?
First time we got someone ordering a burrito and my favorite line from the judge: "Ma'am, whoever's talking about scones. If you can put your phone on mute, that would be great."
I thought it was pretty funny (albeit a little heartbreaking) when Jurek asked the courtroom typist/stenographer to read back one of her questions (so she could ask it to Mallender again). Judge Parker had to break the news to her that they don’t really do that anymore, it’s all recorded electronically instead. So instead she had to try and recall what she had asked originally (it was convoluted, which made that challenging).
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:Glad she brought forward the information about Turner Logic using deeproot's address as its own and it was interesting hear that the trustee did not know that previously (shout out to the trustee: read this thread, at least the key posts, to learn other interesting + relevant things!)
I got a pretty strong "I'm too busy too spend that much time on one case" vibe from Lowe. Pulman made a point of asking him how many bankruptcy cases he had seen and he guessed something like 32-40 thousand since 1985. Good for him, I guess, but I kind of bristle at the suggestion that he is somehow clairvoyant because of this and therefore doesn't need to be burdened with thoroughness or diligence.
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:To me, the question at hand was more about whether Turner had an inside view of these investments that other bidders would not which, coupled with the trustee's lack of funds to pay the premiums and TuYo's fast tracking of the sale, set him up to score potentially big returns for far less than what others would pay if they had similar knowledge and/or with which he never would have had interest in pursuing the sale in the first place. I'll note, I'm not saying I think this is the case. I'm just saying the whole thing has seemed off to me and, if it in actually is off, that's the offness I'd most suspect. Turner might be clean as a whistle and a standup guy for all I know.
I have a better opinion of Turner having heard him speak and handle himself during examination and cross examination (full disclosure, I claimed he had a "creeper smile" in a previous zoom call), but it's still suspicious to me that there were no legal discussions regarding the concept of having this "insider info" we keep talking about. If it's really inconsequential/irrelevant (appears to be the case since Judge Parker never even acknowledged it), it would have been helpful for someone to actually say that out loud and get it off the table.
The only use of the word Insider, as far as I can recall, was from Jurek (many times) and Turner (when he recited that memorized line about not being an insider under the US bankruptcy code). Don't remember hearing Parker, Pulman, Lowe, or anyone else using the word.
Really wish someone would have pressed Turner a little harder on why he felt like taking such a large risk speculating on these policies, considering his lack of background (other than creating an investment portal full of financial information). "Isn't it odd that you would take such a large risk like this?"
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:Seems like a good old boys club where all of the dude lawyers and the judge are chummy, jokey bros. Not ideal for the objectors (though I don't think that was the deciding factor here).
100% agree here. Jurek didn't present very well, but she was also fighting an uphill battle against Pulman (who clearly has experience working with Parker) and Mallender (who was DRIPPING with frustration and disdain). His body language in the video feed emphasized this even more, almost to the point where I was shocked he wasn't being scolded by Parker for it. The tone of the courtroom almost felt like the dude lawyers were being charitable by even giving Jurek the floor, which is a shitty look.
Quoted from benheck:Maybe there's a Twilight Zone-esque twist...
"Yahoo! I got the insurance policies! When these people die, I'll be rich!"
(turns on news) "The key to eternal life has been found!"
"Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
[Turner sells off SnackDot for pennies, having found a new fortune effectively managing a "Dead Pool" of septuagenarians.]
["Snacks as a Service" becomes the next Gold Rush overnight.]
[The US economy crumbles, becoming a post-apocalyptic hellscape ruled by dweebs with PT Cruisers and bulk supplies of bespoke snack foods.]
[Life Insurance companies go insolvent due to the instability of financial markets.]
[TuYo Holdings is left with nothing but regret, empty stomachs, and inexplicable cravings for Organic Pop Tarts.]
Great podcast to listen to while chorin’, since everything I finish around the house while listening feels like a monumental accomplishment compared to Robert Mueller’s legacy.
Quoted from turbo20lbs:[quoted image]
Mueller may not have shown up ready to work every day, but his belt sure did.
Quoted from benheck:95lb single moms, no less!
Someone should explain women to Robert.
Robert clearly struggles with "scale." Some examples:
95 lb women
12621 Silicon Dr, San Antonio, TX 78249
1000 RAZA's
Salary Burn Rates
Industrial Manufacturing Equipment
Office Exercise Equipment
The PinPod(TM)
Size Medium Dry Fit Polo
Quoted from greatwichjohn:As always I am available to be a sounding board for those interested in production.
Greatwich Sanders (resized).png
Re: "forest for trees"
Tried going left/right top/bottom with only the letters from found clues (no repeats). No dice.
https://deeprootpinball.com/prfkmxioicaenmvugdnererieeoadtcnennlaapinpodgoptilzysrioitrpuisaiotorseinoogesrlteflmoeiayirtacinarasodtotbbynahktdndleuanirgwycapmerlinsarcadehkevedisniponreeiegaenihcamdf
Tried doing the same with unused letters only. No dice.
https://deeprootpinball.com/fzvhcyvhafccymnpmiijpyzwpkpkiqvyobunhxculmswvjuwmbpxeovgpukumwnhychwkccqyykcbpptrxyclvstaajjfhzmnglibpunxzgcqjggjbqgmwyjokxuqqllttnvbrklivzehabdnykqrgvtnlouyftjejbqapunuskjyxllnlotrouohxvyrnnaucjsnvtenprfzrleplndegrmxpizn
If anyone wants to check my typing, feel free.
pasted_image (resized).png
Edit: I haven't been following along for all the words found/added outside of those listed below the puzzle.. so maybe I'm missing an 8 letter word that would change the URLs above slightly? Anyway, more time than I care to devote to figuring it out.
Quoted from Thizben:The 6th clue said it was only a 20 letter hidden URL:
"Twenty words to find, twenty characters in the hidden url. Coincidence? Certainly not. You have everything you need, no hacking necessary."
Quoted from Mr68:He was once a ferocious commentator in this thread, now reduced to stalking us and ridiculing behind our backs.
Gone but not forgotten.
I don't get faulting people for trying to solve an obscure, low stakes puzzle... seems like a perfectly good filler activity while we wait for this break in legal activity to pass.
Is Ice mad he can't take this ball and go home? Mad that the kids at the playground are still having "fun?"
Quoted from Medisinyl:8 - "The origin of the cipher is biblical."
Maybe?
https://www.theology.ox.ac.uk/article/crack-the-code
"It is a simple substitution code, where the first letter of the alphabet (א alef) is replaced by the last (ת taw), the second letter (ב bet) by the second last (ש sin or shin) etc. The name 'atbash' refers to the first letters of the names of these Hebrew characters: alef, taw, bet and shin"
I didn't watch the whole video, but the phrase "my own money" doesn't strike me as particularly forthcoming for a guy who recently took advantage of a bankruptcy sale that netted him significantly discounted life policies, especially when there were defrauded investors looking to be made at least partially whole.
I know he doesn't really owe anyone anything, and I guess it's unlikely that he's profited on any of that at this point, but maybe read the room a little bit?
Quoted from mbwalker:Just touching a drawing to update was $250K.
Whaaaat? What’s the approx cost breakdown here in terms of management, actual drafting, and gratuitous profit margin?
I know the defense industry is a bloated whale, but damn.
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:[quoted image]
I think this might be a good deeproot 2.0 logo, actually!
44D4FAD7-D48E-4072-BBB8-5BEC7896A87C (resized).jpegQuoted from mbwalker:I can't break it down per se, but there's definitely a lot of fingers in the pot and hoops we had to jump thru. Me (engineer) making a change (i.e. designing), drafting (with me setting next to the drafting person), components, a HUGE list of people to review (translate: kill a couple of hours each), maybe a 'rinse and repeat'. I was actually quoted a lot bigger number by a program manager, but I even had a hard time believing it (but not reason to actually doubt it).
Don't forget the hourly rate is not what is charged. It includes overhead, ends up being a very BIG hourly rate. Each department essentially has to charge a rate to cover overhead. And the rate was uniform across the country, meaning the expense states like CA influenced our rates too.
A lot of it is driven by the customer (the DOD) requirements.
Gotcha— that makes sense. I work in Industrial Automation and this kind of thing is 1-2 orders of magnitude less expensive to accomplish for us, even on the higher end (pharma). I guess it just underscores the bananas amount of dollars up for grabs from the DOD.
Quoted from iceman44:He said they just need a few more people to die on those LI policies and the funding is ready to go.
So he's trying really hard to present as good-natured as possible in his scripted youtube videos, then saying something this tone-deaf off the record?
EDIT: Guess I should have considered the likely possibility that iceman is rolling through troll-town with these posts. Reserving further judgment for now.
EDIT EDIT: Except for this meme, couldn't resist:
pasted_image (resized).pngQuoted from greatwichjohn:I guess I will stop leaving bread crumbs & let the experts figure it out on their own.
Can we get a key post for this pivotal moment where GWJ said he was done posting (again)?
Quoted from greatwichjohn:Said what I said, bread crumbs has ended. Figure it out on your own.
Quoted from greatwichjohn:Who is the artist should be your next question. Industry vet or new blood. There is a plan in place. Same as Chris Turner is going through the steps.
Quoted from Scandell:“Guy that has never contributed to the release of a pinball machine says he wants to create pinball machines…”
and you guys give him a megaphone. Slow clap.
Even GWJ gets a “megaphone” in this thread, yo.
Quoted from Richthofen:Here’s the thing though: is it even passion? How many machines does this guy own? How long has he been collecting? Did he really just dick around with Robert a bit and now suddenly has a passion for pinball? This doesn’t pass the sniff test.
The whole word-search puzzle thing and the Odyssean-length YouTube video “explaining” it suggest, to me, that the guy is enjoying the attention.
Quoted from iceman44:Nobody gives a F lying F except you nerds.
“Nobody cares about this!” - Multiple Time Deeproot Pinball Thread Ejection Alum
Quoted from iceman44:I wear it proudly. There are only the idiots left. I’m here to clean it up on Aisle 9.
Pathetic really.
The disgusting behavior of the mini mob pack of misfits
Look in the mirror and ask yourself if you are proud of your contribution to the shit show.
What has it added? Seriously. Nothing
Single people with nothing else to live for, divorcees. Etc etc.
Life losers and sad really. Misery loves company, I get it.
Want to eject me from what? The shit show you live in? Go ahead
Yikes, project much?
Most of the regulars in here have an interest in this thread akin to that of onlookers of a train wreck. It’s entertaining and objectively interesting to follow along with.
Most folks in here are capable of respectful, if passionate, debate. Obviously wouldn’t count you among that demo.
You’ve got 23k posts and 300+ topics started on a pinball forum, and somehow only the people who disagree with you are the “life losers,””divorcees,” and “single people?”
Quoted from Inside:No link; I heard it through the grapevine. I don’t work at Boeing, but San Antonio is a small city.
Nothing groundbreaking here, but wanted to add that I checked with a buddy who works for Boeing and he confirmed the presence of a "Robert J Mueller" in his Boeing contacts list, either Chicago or Seattle (said he couldn't tell which).
Edit: sent him the screenshot of the "Robert M." LinkedIn. He confirmed that it appears to be THE Bobby Mueller.
Quoted from mbwalker:Seriously, who else knows quad and octo manufacturing better than Robert? Every family needs a Boeing 737 Max.
"Every 90 lb single mom should be able to buy and service a 737!"
Can't get the "yuck" out of my brain on all this insider subcontractor stalking vulture bidding stuff.
Paid to be a subcontractor and gain an intimate awareness of asset value, remained insulated from fallout of company collapse, and now picking over the value of what remains with a clear bidder's advantage?
Quoted from CrazyLevi:Could be a huge windfall…or it could die.
Quoted from greatwichjohn:Likely a number of players are looking at something, nothing, or go their own route.
John is very good at betting on black, red, and green simultaneously.
Quoted from greatwichjohn:People will see how it plays out, & believe what you want. Just like all those that think I do not talk with industry people. Continue to leave some bread crumbs for those that might be able to gleam some information, or not. Just like people seem to think I am some kind of drunk or alcoholic over the years. Texas is a big state with lots of money, could be more players than people think. Guess who might know, or not. Or they could die, or not as a new pinball company. Pinball is still very hot & likely to get even better with more players.
GWJ Bingo!
1. How it Plays Out
2. Bread Crumbs
3. Drinking Reference
4. Mysterious Players
5. This, That, or possibly Something Else
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:Predictions for how the sale plays out?
With zero inside knowledge, my guess is Turner gets it for $50k, despite all the public and private talk of AP interest.
One could imagine the zidware rights ending up a monkey wrench. But that would only be if Bill wanted them to be one. And he actively elected to not throw his weight around with DR.
Just a hunch, but I’m guessing one or several anonymous but interested parties either bid, don’t bid, or go their own route.
#breadcrumbs
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:Chris Turner on the witness list for Tuesday's deeproot pinball ip sales hearing.
[quoted image]
Is this the expected WebEx for the hearing tomorrow? This is one I might listen in to, if I can make it work.
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:Trustee clearly annoyed with way Jurek does business inside about outside of the court.
Totally spaced on this and missed it, but this is pretty much what I expected. I'd be looking for new representation too, if she were representing my interests.
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:SEC and trustee succinctly spank Robert with respect to his objection. Mentioned a couple times is that Robert had his chance to object (to the associated bankruptcy settlement) and did not in time, answering my question about whether his motion was too late (answer: kinda - the assertion by this response is that he has no standing to object in the SEC case; he would have in the bankruptcy one, but didn't in time).
[quoted image]
Man, "no cognizable basis" would have been a great tagline for the deeproot entities, together or separately.
(resized).pngQuoted from Miguel351:For the couple people on this thread that might be able to provide suggestions or opinions, I have kind of a similar situation regarding a bankruptcy sale/trustee issue and property that was kept by a former employee that I'd like to ask about what kind of recourse is available to recover said property. We can discuss it in PMs as to not derail this thread.
For clarification; it was not my company nor my employee. I have no vested interest or monetary involvement. It was a friend of mine that this all happened to and I want that former employee to not be able to personally profit of my friend's loss.
If I remember right, Ben Heck is now free and clear to provide legal advice without a license!
Quoted from RCA1:The suspicious part is that he provided computer services to deeproot and seemed to have a working relationship with RM.
And most importantly (after Snackdot, of course) was the winning stalking horse bidder for the remaining in-force life insurance policies that were sold off as part of the bankruptcy case for deeproot… having previously been a database admin for a custom investment portal he created for Mueller to manage those same policies.
It’s like the dude was in a deeproot escape pod that managed to jettison from the shuttle while holding the only assets of actual value.
Whether it’s legal or not, it’s gross.
Quoted from Mr68:As far as I'm concerned, Turner has gone through the courts legal system to acquire what he has and I have other things to do than play amature detective or worry about imagined conspiracy's.
Business' go bankrupt a 1000 times a day and there is always someone or some company there to salvage for pennies on the dollar. Its smart business and an everyday occurrence whether anyone likes it or not.
Now the question for me becomes, can Turner make it work?
I don't have anything invested but I do have a curiosity of what he has plans for.
It's going to be a last minute call for me, but I was already leaning towards heading to TPF anyway. I would enjoy stopping by the Turner booth and chatting with Chris to see what's what.
FYI. It's not my style to be intrusive or ask other peoples questions.
I totally respect your viewpoint, but to briefly "defend" my own--
"Amateur Detective" is kind of in the DNA of this monstrosity of a thread, and we all *absolutely* have better things to do than play along.. but I enjoy it, so I do.
I've said several times that I don't think Turner has really done anything legally wrong, and I'm not suggesting that he deserves any kind of retribution. I think I conceded once or twice before that he seems like a good enough dude, other than maybe not being able to "read the room" very well.
I won't disagree that TuYo swooping in and buying up those policies was shrewd, smart business. I just have a really hard time respecting them for it, knowing the context. I think I would have felt better if there were more of an effort from the bankruptcy lawyers to find additional bidders.. Some competition there would have felt less like the system was being taken such advantage of. The "justice-seeker" in me would have preferred to see a fairer sale for a higher value, maybe increasing the pool of funds available to pay off more debts to those owed repayment.
I wouldn't want my "how I built this" story to begin with this particular anecdote, but that's just me personally. I know it's water under the bridge for most, so I'll drop it.
Quoted from Mr68:A judge's interpretation
[quoted image]
Though the dog ate the homework, he should be given a pass. Eating homework is "reasonable and customary" for dogs, and appears to have been a risk "adequately disclosed by" the dog by virtue of being, you know-- a dog. To blame the dog would require "proof of intent" to hinder classroom performance.
Any legal gurus have thoughts on what a typical settlement would be in this kind of scenario? What's the SEC likely to go for in a mediation?
Obviously Robert wants to see charges reduced or dropped, but what's the SEC going to try and get out of a mediation? Does the SEC's strategy change from what it would have been without a Magistrate mediator? As jamesmc said:
Quoted from jamesmc:all the SEC can do is take some administrative action and recommend prosecution by the DOJ,
...can they still recommend prosecution to the DOJ if the mediation makes this confidential? Is the confidential mediation a way for Robert to avoid the civil case with the SEC from influencing his criminal case? Am I mis-remembering that there's a criminal case waiting for when the civil one is done?
"...Is it cold in France? Do these vans get good gas mileage?"
Per that last doc: "Counsel and parties shall proceed in a good faith effort to try to resolve this case"
Is that even remotely likely? What's the SEC going to do, say: "Ok Robert, if we can just hear you admit that you're a big ol' doofus, we'll get outta your hair and call it even."
How might someone "settle" with the SEC? Is it possible he'll just agree to pay some fines and then the SEC exits stage left?
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:Here's how Betsy Chestney's meditation will roll on June 20th behind closed doors. Interesting doc. Bet it will be an interesting day.
[quoted image]
"The proposed [mediation] settlement agreement should include all terms; however, the parties can use a ***blank line*** to indicate those terms that remain in dispute."
---
***We did Haikus, we did pet photos, we even photoshopped progressively smaller Mueller heads sprouting out of the central head in a sort of perverted sociopathic fractal... I think it's high time for deeproot vs SEC madlibs!! Thanks, ChatGPT!
---
Once upon a time, in the bustling city of San Antonio, a dispute of [adjective] proportions unfolded between the [occupation] named Robert Mueller and the formidable SEC. The conflict arose from a [adjective] issue that threatened to shake the very foundations of [industry or sector].
The mediation process began with both Robert Mueller and the SEC presenting their arguments, each side passionately advocating for their version of events. Robert Mueller, armed with their [adjective] [noun], articulated the alleged wrongdoings and argued for justice to be served. On the other hand, the SEC, with their [adjective] [noun], emphasized the importance of [verb ending in -ing] the [noun] and [verb ending in -ing] [noun].
The mediator, a [adjective] and [adjective] soul named [Mediator's Name], listened intently to both sides, carefully weighing their words. [Mediator's Name] understood the gravity of the situation and the potential consequences of their decision. The mediator's goal was not only to find a resolution but also to restore [noun] and [noun] between the parties.
Through [adjective] negotiation and [noun], a [noun] was finally achieved. Robert Mueller and the SEC agreed on a [adjective] settlement that aimed to [verb] [noun] while ensuring [noun] for any [noun]. The terms of the settlement included a combination of [adjective] [noun], [adjective] [noun] measures, and [adjective] [noun] initiatives to promote [adjective] [noun].
With the agreement reached, Robert Mueller and the SEC emerged from mediation with a newfound [noun] for one another. They realized that by [verb ending in -ing] together, they could create a [adjective] and [adjective] [noun] for Pinball-kind.
The tale of Robert Mueller and the SEC's mediation became a [noun] shared among [noun] for generations to come.
Quoted from Atari_Daze:I think it is very similar to this:
Haha, I work for a Control Systems Integrator and this video comes up once a year. Always makes me laugh.
Quoted from RyanStl:Who's dupe account was this TreyBong420?
More like “dope” account amirite, heh.
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