Can someone please just start a new thread when deeproot does more than hype and talk smack...
Pretty boring till they produce something
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Quoted from Whysnow:Can someone please just start a new thread when deeproot does more than hype and talk smack...
Pretty boring till they produce something
It's not THAT boring. I think most of us would be happy enough if they just keep doing what they are doing.
The last thing we need is more Deeproot threads.
This is going to be interesting to watch.
In my opinion, for this to even have a chance to succeed they would have to:
- Make everyone whole. Pay people back that are owed money/games from the Zidware deal
- Fix the MG games that did go out
- Make an absolutely incredible pin that was so good people might overlook all the baggage.
Even then, it might not go well.
Quoted from Rockytop:This is going to be interesting to watch.
In my opinion, for this to even have a chance to succeed they would have to:
- Make everyone whole. Pay people back that are owed money/games from the Zidware deal
- Fix the MG games that did go out
- Make an absolutely incredible pin that was so good people might overlook all the baggage.
Even then, it might not go well.
Obviously that's the best case scenario "on paper". What happens in reality is a whole other thing.
Quoted from Rockytop:This is going to be interesting to watch.
In my opinion, for this to even have a chance to succeed they would have to:
- Make everyone whole. Pay people back that are owed money/games from the Zidware deal
- Fix the MG games that did go out
- Make an absolutely incredible pin that was so good people might overlook all the baggage.
Even then, it might not go well.
Perhaps they should partner with Dutch and Heighway, and if they pool all their resources they could make everybody whole.
Quoted from o-din:Perhaps they should partner with Dutch and Heighway, and if they pool all their resources they could make everybody whole.
Why not go for the Predator license and throw Skit B into the mix.
Starting a new company by inheriting a bunch of debt from something you had nothing to do with, along with the con artist who ran with all the money, what could go wrong?
Quoted from Aurich:Starting a new company by inheriting a bunch of debt from something you had nothing to do with, along with the con artist who ran with all the money, what could go wrong?
Did you ever hear about Jonestown? That sounds like the kind of Kool Aid somebody will be drinking.
Melbourne
I like the bit they wrote specifically for kaneda.
You cannot poopoo the process. Defame us on the forums or on a podcast or your claim will most likely get denied.
Didn't cointaker buy a bunch of these machines? It's a company and not an individual. So does that mean they cannot claim at all? They have to sue John? Or that they have to entire into an agreement as an individual for some legal reason?
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:Just read through the goodwill terms. Interesting.
This does look more and more like a play to ensure that their holding company / insurance business doesn't make a profit, in order to avoid tax. Particularly as the settlement terms appear pretty generous, at face value.
Claiming that, ".... John Popadiuk was the best option primarily because of his talent at game design and his ability to work with deeproot Tech’s engineers and staff .... " isn't remotely credible. Particularly as this came after the AP/JPop fiasco.
They may well have every intention of running a real pinball business and potentially could succeed, but I don't think there's a single person left in the hobby that still believes the above, or that, "... his best work in the Pinball industry, as a game designer, is still ahead of him ..."
It just sounds like an excuse.
JPop's losses and failure, and perhaps the host of patents that never should have been granted, are probably the assets here. Not what ever capability he may still have as a designer. Especially with Nordman and Oursler apparently on board.
If avoiding corporation tax is the idea, I think they'd be best served being open about it. There's nothing wrong with it necessarily, and they'd avoid becoming an object of derision as they are now, holding JPop up as some kind of beacon.
P.S. The document is a little vague on one thing .. Space Mission X ... it could be inferred that money was taken for this. Does anyone know if that really happened?
Quoted from spfxted:I think the goal is to get rid of the Poppadork lawsuits. They don't want an employee going to court every month.
What ever talents and skills he may have can't possibly be worth this settlement, all other things being equal. Unless the assumed burden is an asset in itself.
On recent evidence, John being in the dock 5 days a week wouldn't have any significant impact on his productivity.
Quoted from rubberducks:On recent evidence, John being in the dock 5 days a week wouldn't have any significant impact on his productivity.
Quoted from deeproot:Our only response to AP's post is that their statements are not true, they contradict their attorney's private statements, they contradict the contract they voluntarily drafted and entered into with John, and (as to the trademark) appear to contradict federal law. We are proceeding with John's original Houdini design but not the Houdini name; which is consistent with our prior statement.
-dP
Why? The design looks horrible. Please let us know what you may see in that design that makes anyone think they would buy it. It looks like that loop ramp results in an out lane drain, the ramp is way to tight, plus numerous other problems. Dennis and Barry are awesome designers and I cannot wait to see what they do, but I cannot imagine Dennis, Barry, or Jon thinking that design is worth anything.
What happens if someone signs the goodwill terms and they are unhappy with these mystery machines? Say they are like Zizzels or The Pin. Intentional or not, wouldn't they then be S.O.L. Things seem to be vague enough that they could legally be anything. Did I read it correctly that buyers could just take a 50% refund now?
Quoted from lpeters82:What happens if someone signs the goodwill terms and they are unhappy with these mystery machines? Say they are like Zizzels or The Pin.
A couple of Deeproot Zizzles would be more tempting than my Zidware Zero.
Merthyr Tydfil
Quoted from rubberducks:This does look more and more like a play to ensure that their holding company / insurance business doesn't make a profit, in order to avoid tax.
*cough* CAPCOM *cough*
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:I think this should be saved here for posterity. 508 days to get multiple games delivered.
Don't forget that was their worst case...how many times did they say it might be moved up at any point 
Quoted from lpeters82:What happens if someone signs the goodwill terms and they are unhappy with these mystery machines? Say they are like Zizzels or The Pin. Intentional or not, wouldn't they then be S.O.L. Things seem to be vague enough that they could legally be anything. Did I read it correctly that buyers could just take a 50% refund now?
No
You can say 'F this' and take nothing.. but keep your right to sue the guy and company with no assets and enough flip flops now to make it difficult to collect anything
You can sign up for a promise of discounts on deeproot games
... And at the end if you don't like the deeproot games, you can walk away... and depending on your 'tier' will dictate what relief you would have.
It's basically a tease for huge value on vaporware to lock in people waiving any claims against Popadeuce.
If deeproot fails to deliver... you get your money back (but they'll never let this happen)
If you don't like deeproot's games... if you were in for <5k.. you can get 50% of your money back AFTER the 'delivery date'. Those that put more money in the pot... you would be eligible for that money back (again after the delivery date).
The model is setup to encourage new deposits... with a promise of no risk.
But you know nothing about what games they are delivering... they've made zero games yet plan to be delivering 'multiple' games in less than 18months.
You also stand to be in the same situation you were with zidware... money or things owed to you, with potentially no way to collect.
They are selling promises in exchange for you signing away your claims against Popadeuce. The flip side is... 'something' even promises is still better than 'nothing'. But you get to ride the wave for another 12-18months
Quoted from pin2d:Noticed the webinar is up now:
https://zidware.deeproottech.com
I don't know what I expected his voice to sound like except that it wasn't that. Disappointing.
Quoted from flynnibus:No
You can say 'F this' and take nothing.. but keep your right to sue the guy and company with no assets and enough flip flops now to make it difficult to collect anything
You can sign up for a promise of discounts on deeproot games
... And at the end if you don't like the deeproot games, you can walk away... and depending on your 'tier' will dictate what relief you would have.
It's basically a tease for huge value on vaporware to lock in people waiving any claims against Popadeuce.
If deeproot fails to deliver... you get your money back (but they'll never let this happen)
If you don't like deeproot's games... if you were in for <5k.. you can get 50% of your money back AFTER the 'delivery date'. Those that put more money in the pot... you would be eligible for that money back (again after the delivery date).
The model is setup to encourage new deposits... with a promise of no risk.
But you know nothing about what games they are delivering... they've made zero games yet plan to be delivering 'multiple' games in less than 18months.
You also stand to be in the same situation you were with zidware... money or things owed to you, with potentially no way to collect.
They are selling promises in exchange for you signing away your claims against Popadeuce. The flip side is... 'something' even promises is still better than 'nothing'. But you get to ride the wave for another 12-18months
Is “delivery date” ever defined? They could just never deliver anything and keep half the money free and clear.
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:Is “delivery date” ever defined? They could just never deliver anything and keep half the money free and clear.
No. They have so many outs in that statement it's not funny. Just look at the last line, that could mean anything! "...and other various terms and provisions."
I sincerely hope this works out for everyone. I just don't want to see anyone in worse condition. An example, would be not being made whole and legally losing there ability to sue.
This is so unnecessarily complicated.
I realize we're dealing with lawyers and there is no such thing as simple, but this is as simple as I can suggest:
All deeproot has to say is this:
-We're getting into pinball
-We'd like to use jpop and his designs
-We realize there are past customers of his out there that are out money
-We'd like everyone to feel good about what we're doing, so here's what we're offering:
-Please don't sue john.
-When we're done, you get XXX credit on the final pinball.
We're not asking ANYTHING else of you. Just don't sue him, and hope we succeed. If we do, you get something. If we fail, well, john is already a failure.
-You've waited 6 years already. This is basically a bad debt. Let us try and make a go of this and wish us the best. At this point what more is there to lose?
The end.
I think what I wrote above kind of is similar to what they are saying, other than they've loaded it down with tons of legalese, and things to sign.
Don't ask me to sign something. Just ask me to take a chill pill.
Quoted from flynnibus:No
You can say 'F this' and take nothing.. but keep your right to sue the guy and company with no assets and enough flip flops now to make it difficult to collect anything
You can sign up for a promise of discounts on deeproot games
... And at the end if you don't like the deeproot games, you can walk away... and depending on your 'tier' will dictate what relief you would have.
It's basically a tease for huge value on vaporware to lock in people waiving any claims against Popadeuce.
If deeproot fails to deliver... you get your money back (but they'll never let this happen)
If you don't like deeproot's games... if you were in for <5k.. you can get 50% of your money back AFTER the 'delivery date'. Those that put more money in the pot... you would be eligible for that money back (again after the delivery date).
The model is setup to encourage new deposits... with a promise of no risk.
But you know nothing about what games they are delivering... they've made zero games yet plan to be delivering 'multiple' games in less than 18months.
You also stand to be in the same situation you were with zidware... money or things owed to you, with potentially no way to collect.
They are selling promises in exchange for you signing away your claims against Popadeuce. The flip side is... 'something' even promises is still better than 'nothing'. But you get to ride the wave for another 12-18months
Thank you for your assessment, but you missed most of the points I tried to emphasize in the Webinar. Zidware customers who file a claim and are approved will get advanced access to play all titles *before* they have to commit to anything, or pay in any more money. It is completely no risk.
I would say you did get something right. We are sure that once Zidware Claimants see what they will be getting, most will likely max out the top tier. That benefits them; and admittedly us as well. I guess 'Sizzle without the zizzle' was overlooked in my last interview. I thought it was clever at least. Hehe.
--Robert/dT
Quoted from deeproot:Thank you for your assessment, but you missed most of the points I tried to emphasize in the Webinar. Zidware customers who file a claim and are approved will get advanced access to play all titles *before* they have to commit to anything, or pay in any more money. It is completely no risk.
I would say you did get something right. We are sure that once Zidware Claimants see what they will be getting, most will likely max out the top tier. That benefits them; and admittedly us as well. I guess 'Sizzle without the zizzle' was overlooked in my last interview. I thought it was clever at least. Hehe.
--Robert/dT
so it is all a scam to TRY and get people already duped to give you more deposit money and pot in to another JPOP scam???
WOW!!! WTF!!!!
Quoted from deeproot:Thank you for your assessment, but you missed most of the points I tried to emphasize in the Webinar. Zidware customers who file a claim and are approved will get advanced access to play all titles *before* they have to commit to anything, or pay in any more money. It is completely no risk.
I would say you did get something right. We are sure that once Zidware Claimants see what they will be getting, most will likely max out the top tier. That benefits them; and admittedly us as well. I guess 'Sizzle without the zizzle' was overlooked in my last interview. I thought it was clever at least. Hehe.
--Robert/dT
Robert.
Zidware has contracts with Jpop customers containing their personal information. What efforts during all of this time have you made for direct contact with them?
And why the deadline to submit a claim? If someone you didn't reach out to past the due date has proof, I think they should be compensated.
Quoted from clempo:Does anybody have any idea what Quad Assembly could be?
It is the process by which this item came into existence:
Quoted from Whysnow:so it is all a scam to TRY and get people already duped to give you more deposit money and pot in to another JPOP scam???
WOW!!! WTF!!!!
I don't think they are asking for money until the "delivery day". My only fear at this point is that somehow signing this contract could eliminate any legal leverage current customers might have against John / Zidware. Obviously if deeproot comes through with their promises, games "designed and manufactured similar to the commonly known Williams/Bally/Zidware standards", that will likely not be an issue. Though, I'd question tossing Zidware into the list. I just want to know what happens if they fail to meet that "similar to" standard. Further, I would like to know what happens if deeproot fails, as in, they fail to produce the machines, nor have the capitol to refund deposits. I'm assuming this would make this new contract null and void, but I just don't want to see anyone loose there legal leverage.
Quoted from lpeters82:I don't think they are asking for money until the "delivery day". My only fear at this point is that somehow signing this contract could eliminate any legal leverage current customers might have against John / Zidware. Obviously if deeproot comes through with their promises, games "designed and manufactured similar to the commonly known Williams/Bally/Zidware standards", that will likely not be an issue. Though, I'd question tossing Zidware into the list. I just want to know what happens if they fail to meet that "similar to" standard. Further, I would like to know what happens if deeproot fails, as in, they fail to produce the machines, nor have the capitol to refund deposits. I'm assuming this would make this new contract null and void, but I just don't want to see anyone loose there legal leverage.
Keep in mind the owner of deeproot IS AN ATTORNEY. There's a lot of language one can put into a contract that looks benign, but which wipes out any actual meaning. I've not read the thing in depth, but caveat empor.
Yeah, on it's surface this seems like a promising option, but I have hesitation. Hopefully, that's just being overly cautious, but every option up until this point, has failed. At best. Many have caused more harm. I would hope that deeproot is understanding of this hesitation. By associating with John, they have taken on a lot of baggage. Now they have to deal with that baggage, before they will earn my full support. Still, I hope they do get to that point. I also understand that for others, there is no possibility they could ever support a company associated with John. I totally get that too. I do think the fact that deeproot has settled with Applejuice and Zombie Yeti, is a step in the right direction. Obviously, we're never going to get the full details, but it's safe to assume that all parties thought it was in their best interest to sign the agreement.
Those good ole, goodwill NDAs.
-Read the fine print!
Oh this is gonna go well, deeproot has already pissed off a major award winning podcaster.
A guy that really likes JPOP Kool-Aid, but sold the box of lights cause after it quickly broke he was almost totally screwed. He got smart cut his losses and is done with it. Now a different guy owns that box of history. How pathetic.
I still can't believe John is worth all this trouble.
American Pinball was totally smart.
These guys not so much.
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:Is “delivery date” ever defined? They could just never deliver anything and keep half the money free and clear.
Yes, June 30, 2019 (or sooner)
Quoted from frolic:This is so unnecessarily complicated.
I realize we're dealing with lawyers and there is no such thing as simple, but this is as simple as I can suggest:
All deeproot has to say is this:
-We're getting into pinball
-We'd like to use jpop and his designs
-We realize there are past customers of his out there that are out money
-We'd like everyone to feel good about what we're doing, so here's what we're offering:
-Please don't sue john.
-When we're done, you get XXX credit on the final pinball.
We're not asking ANYTHING else of you. Just don't sue him, and hope we succeed. If we do, you get something. If we fail, well, john is already a failure.
-You've waited 6 years already. This is basically a bad debt. Let us try and make a go of this and wish us the best. At this point what more is there to lose?
The end.
It's not that far from it... except signing off to not sue John. Which is kind of tablestakes anyway... simply 'asking someone' doesn't really fly in business.
You can get credit towards a product you may or may not want... in exchange for signing off not to persue John/Zidware any further. The rest is fluff.
The owners (money depositors into JPop inc.) should collectively seek legal advice on the terms of the deal that's being offered, before anyone accepts anything.
.
Quoted from EalaDubhSidhe:*cough* CAPCOM *cough*
Didn't realise that was the idea behind their pinball unit, if indeed it was.
Guess they got rather more than they bargained for, with Python's profligacy and taking the piss with Zingy Bingy etc ...
Quoted from deeproot:Thank you for your assessment, but you missed most of the points I tried to emphasize in the Webinar. Zidware customers who file a claim and are approved will get advanced access to play all titles *before* they have to commit to anything, or pay in any more money. It is completely no risk.
I didn't miss it - I just didn't give you credit because it's just fluff and I boiled it down to what really mattered.
1 - No one gives a %#$# about your offer to visit the facility as part of the deal. You make it sound like its some super valuable honor. You should be doing this anyway.
2 - The requirement to lock in a NDA for the privilege is more mental gymnastics to make this seem more 'impressive'. No one has any incentive to visit EARLY, it's actually counter productive to visit early vs near when games and the deadlines are. When trying to decide if you want the game, LATER not earlier is better. There is no requirement or incentive for anyone to give you any money sooner than the delivery deadline. So why would anyone want to visit early vs being able to see what the FINAL product is really like? And if at that stage you still really need to be keeping details under wraps... I think you have more to hide than promote.
3 - If it gets to the deadline period and you're ready to ship MULTIPLE games... and you don't *want* people playing the games.. then I would be far more worried about what you are delivering than I'd be worried about the internet knowing.
4 - The '5 days of deeproot' is the biggest fluff this community has ever seen. Even Python couldn't dream up such self-pontificating crap. I can't wait to hear the tales of the revolutionary things you've done that you can't actually share in detail.
Quoted from deeproot:I would say you did get something right. We are sure that once Zidware Claimants see what they will be getting, most will likely max out the top tier. That benefits them; and admittedly us as well.
Well you are at least consistent with your boasting. But many of us are immune to that kind of fluffing and see your statements for what they are and can ID plenty of holes and outs to make the 'deal of a lifetime' not such a great thing.
I can't wait to see the product you look to put out that you think people are going to rush to give you an extra 10k dollars ahead of time to 'max out' to buy games from a company who hasn't shipped any and won't be vetting the games with anyone but the 'chosen ones' who also bought into the scheme.
Lets list the ways this 'dream offer' comes back to reality
1) Your offers are all off List Price - Street pricing could significantly devalue any perceived value offered here
2) You're offering 'free games' but NO frame of reference for what the resulting game value will be (List, Street, or perceived...)
3) Putting your 'revolutionary' manufacturing model aside... if take your boast of hoping most people max out their benefit.. lets assume that takes 5-10k for most people... and we speculate/guess on how many claiments there could be... 100? Lets stick with a round number.. 100. That means you HOPE to give away 300 machines for maybe 1.5-3500k revenue each. When 300 machines is a sizable run for any title these days. What does that say about your expected cost basis for your machines?
4) "Delivery date" doesn't necessarily mean 'able to take possession'. So who is to say Delivery Date isn't just 'project complete' date and actual production->shipment is still open ended.
So trust me... I didn't get it wrong, I'm just not falling for your big tale
Laval, QC
This deal cannot be evaluated until they define what the shipping costs will be. Otherwise they can say shipping & handling is worth $5K extra. I understand they cannot specify a specific amount, but they could declare shipping will be the same cost the carrier charges, or they could let the buyer choose his carrier.
Quoted from lpeters82:My only fear at this point is that somehow signing this contract could eliminate any legal leverage current customers might have against John / Zidware
That is its entire purpose. That and trying to build a captive audience of buyers for your new product...
Quoted from lpeters82:Further, I would like to know what happens if deeproot fails, as in, they fail to produce the machines, nor have the capitol to refund deposits. I'm assuming this would make this new contract null and void, but I just don't want to see anyone loose there legal leverage.
Wouldn't be null and void - I'm sure the Settlement Deeproot makes you sign will have plenty of avoidance clauses that are one sided to avoid liability. After all, they are the only ones taking 'risk' so they hold all the cards. You can agree, or stick to what you have right now... which is nothing.
If they flop, you go right back to where you are now... facing legal costs to pursue an entity that owes you something, but probably has nothing to repay you with.
Quoted from rubberducks:The owners (money depositors into JPop inc.) should collectively seek legal advice on the terms of the deal that's being offered, before anyone accepts anything.
.Didn't realise that was the idea behind their pinball unit, if indeed it was.
Guess they got rather more than they bargained for, with Python's profligacy and taking the piss with Zingy Bingy etc ...
From what I've been told in the past, Capcom knew *exactly* what they were bargaining for *because* they put Python in a high ranking position.
Quoted from flynnibus:but probably has nothing to repay you with.
...except the money he's getting paid from Deeproot... 
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