Alice in Wonderland
Zidware Pinball USA, 2013
Celts
Haggis, 2021
Magic Girl
Zidware Pinball USA, 2017
Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland
Zidware Pinball USA, 2012
Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland (Arcade Edition)
Deeproot, 2020
Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland (Xtra Edition)
Deeproot, 2020Quoted from kvan99:I just want to chime in and ask where the f@ck where you guys hiding when I was fighting this dimple battle in the other threads? Well better late than never...pfft
They had to have a second major playfield issue with modern pins to accept that the manufacturers would ACTUALLY lie to them. Like you said better late than never.
To the people who say that old playfields have just evened out after thousands of dimples and essentially compressed the wood everywhere on the playfield so it will not dimple anymore I ask, why don’t manufacturers just compress the playfields in order to harden the wood so no more dimpling can occur?
Quoted from vicjw66:To the people who say that old playfields have just evened out after thousands of dimples and essentially compressed the wood everywhere on the playfield so it will not dimple anymore I ask, why don’t manufacturers just compress the playfields in order to harden the wood so no more dimpling can occur?
I always just ask why is it compressed now all the way to the posts, when the ball can only get within a half inch of them. Oh, then we have those pesky inserts that although not wood, still seem to compress at the same rate.
Quoted from o-din:Surprised with all the pinballs I've dropped, they don't put a dent in my oak hardwood floor. Or how, although not steel, a 100 MPH fastball won't dent a wooden bat.
I like it! Replace the laminated plywood playfields with solid oak! 
Quoted from o-din:Oh, then we have those pesky inserts that although not wood, still seem to compress at the same rate.
Stop pointing out facts that don’t fit the Narrative you troublemaker.
Quoted from Lamprey:I like it! Replace the laminated plywood playfields with solid oak!
You'd have to double the thickness of my oak floor, then of course it would be more prone to cratering.
Quoted from Lamprey:It's been shown scientifically, with a wood hardness tester, that the playfields that "crater" are softer than those that "dimple." It's not rocket science here. But, people dismiss the facts because it doesn't fit their narrative that steel is harder than wood, thus the "craters" are normal rubbish perpetuated by many.
I know I have ranted about this before but to be brief(ish):
I agree that newer games look like they have more dimples and dimple faster than older games.
Is this caused by different clear, different lighting, softer wood, etc...that I do not know.
What I do know is you really need to be careful interpreting the results and be familiar with the hardness scale and accuracy. (Even when the test itself is done correctly and the sample size is statistically meaningful). The test results I am aware of do not rise to the level of “scientifically proven”.
Quoted from Oaken:I know I have ranted about this before but to be brief(ish):
I agree that newer games look like they have more dimples and dimple faster than older games.
Is this caused by different clear, different lighting, softer wood, etc...that I do not know.
What I do know is you really need to be careful interpreting the results and be familiar with the hardness scale and accuracy. (Even when the test itself is done correctly and the sample size is statistically meaningful). The test results I am aware of do not rise to the level of “scientifically proven”.
Fully agree. I didn't claim it was proven, just that it was, perhaps, more scientific than someone dropping a ball on the wood under the apron and posting a pic. Those professional harness testing machines are pricey too!
It just baffles me that people will ignore hard (no pun intended) facts. But, such is life I suppose.
It just baffles me that some people don't even trust their own eyes enough that they would rather base their beliefs on a science project. Such is their life.
Quoted from Lamprey:I like it! Replace the laminated plywood playfields with solid oak!
Don't half ass it with oak, full ass it with Ipe.
Ipe is 3x as hard as Oak. It takes 3684# to push a .44" ball half way in, compared to 1290 For oak. Birch is 1260# in case you were wondering. So it's pretty close to oak.
Guy on the last TWIP podcast who is an expert in that field said absolutely dimples can be avoided if the proper clear was used. Said industial uses produce much greater forces than any pinball machine can produce without a failure in the top coat.
i keep seeing adds for a "ceramic coating" they apply to cars. i dont know what tge chemistry it is, but it is a real thing that prevents stone damage to the front of your car. surely the coatings exist, its all about what you want to spend. spooky claims they had to spend more to get the better coating. also interesting that "special when lit" podcast played an old topcast episode where pat lawlor was pushing for diamond plated playfields, while python anghelo said management was against it because it made the playfield last forever and then they wouldnt buy a new pinball.
Quoted from o-din:Interesting how during the lean years, they were able to put out a better product than now during this boom. Perhaps they had to to stay alive.
And I'm wondering when deeproot is going to show some art beyond these sketches that will actually sell pinball games.
Speaking from a manufacturer perspective, problems happen when demand exceeds production. When it is slow QC is more stringent from both the manufacturer and its suppliers. When it is busy the stress to deliver overwhelms the company and its normal QC. Customers put pressure on distributors, distributors put pressure on manufacturers, they put pressure on suppliers and you end up with products that don’t meet quality standards.
In the lean years, you keep the best employees and everyone knows that defects are not acceptable. The entire chain knows that their survival depends on no mistakes from distributors to the suppliers.
Quoted from yaksplat:Don't half ass it with oak, full ass it with Ipe.
Ipe is 3x as hard as Oak. It takes 3684# to push a .44" ball half way in, compared to 1290 For oak. Birch is 1260# in case you were wondering. So it's pretty close to oak.
I'd so go for slate. For pool tables there are 2 kinds, slate and crap. The slate will not warp or dent ever, it just weighs a ton.
Quoted from BigT:problems happen when demand exceeds production.
I thought about that after that post. They are churning them out now, and no time to slow down. One will lead to the other though. That is inevitable.
Perhaps deeproot will bring at least one game to the table before the whole industry slows to a crawl.
Quoted from Tomass:Guy on the last TWIP podcast who is an expert in that field said absolutely dimples can be avoided if the proper clear was used. Said industial uses produce much greater forces than any pinball machine can produce without a failure in the top coat.
The "expert" was confused then. "failure in the top coat" isn't even the right term for this. Any CC of any thickness or formulation will show dimples and dents if it's used on a soft surface. There's no "failure" here... the CC is doing what it's supposed to do. If the wood is soft OF COURSE there will be dents and dimples. That's not the CC's fault. Can't believe some of you guys think there is some magic coating that prevents soft surfaces from showing dents and depressions.
He may have been thinking of coated hard oak or steel surfaces but we're talking about a softer surface here and apparently even more of the softer variations of plywood than we've seen in the past. Back in the day there would be the occasional soft PF but it would be an aberration . I experienced this when a distributor miraculously gave me a full refund for a NIB CV that had the softest wood I'd ever seen. The next new one I bought was fine... minor dimpling where the balls fall off the highwire release, etc. Good lord that was back in '97 I believe.
But now it just seems half of the new PF's out there are *noticeably* softer and the deeper gloss clear really makes it look even worse.
TWD is one of my fav games but I've had to accept that PF in certain areas will always look like the surface of the moon. Not a huge deal but it reminds me of that CV's soft wood.
Now if they were talking about the recent wrinkling and chipping around the posts on these new machines... yeah that would indeed be "failure of the top coat"
You gotta admit... with this current situation that leads to bare wood on new PF's our attention to dimpling seems rather quaint in comparison.
I agree with what you said about the soft wood as clear coat is made to flex just like on a car, however
Quoted from Manic:Back in the day there would be the occasional soft PF but it would be an aberration . I experienced this when a distributor miraculously gave me a full refund for a NIB CV that had the softest wood I'd ever seen. The next new one I bought was fine..
Quoted from Manic:TWD is one of my fav games but I've had to accept that PF in certain areas will always look like the surface of the moon. Not a huge deal but it reminds me of that CV's soft wood.
You like many other are now accepting lessor quality wood that at one time you would not. So
Quoted from Manic:Now if they were talking about the recent wrinkling and chipping around the posts on these new machines... yeah that would indeed be "failure of the top coat"
You gotta admit... with this current situation that leads to bare wood on new PF's our attention to dimpling seems rather quaint in comparison.
If soft wood and dimpling are OK with the consumer, than why would a lessor clear coat be not?
Never thought I’d say this in a thread about a pinball mfg, but can somebody please bring back Sledgehammer
Quoted from o-din:I agree with what you said about the soft wood as clear coat is made to flex just like on a car, however
You like many other are now accepting lessor quality wood that at one time you would not. So
If soft wood and dimpling are OK with the consumer, than why would a lessor clear coat be not?
Hey I'm not accepting it... I quit after TWD. You went out and bought BM66 
I don't know what to make of the new CC issues. I do know they've cured some unsustainable addictions over here.
And some kids may find there will be actual money left in their college funds now 
Quoted from wamoc:I'd so go for slate. For pool tables there are 2 kinds, slate and crap. The slate will not warp or dent ever, it just weighs a ton.
I have seen 2 instances of Valley pool table single piece tables slate with slight warp. You could not truly level it, and Valley reps came out and could not believe it.
I don't get into back and forth arguments especially on a forum where anyone can say they know something, but my own eyes tell me all I need to know about dimpling. On my own restores as well, where I lay down CC thick enough to fill nicks and inserts and sanded flat. Then thousands of plays later I am still happy with the finish. Are there ANY dimples? Well none that I can see or feel. Can you get a microscope out and see some? No clue as I don't care if I can't see them. Say whatever you want, but like I say, one counter point is enough and anything beyond that is like arguing with the wall.
I haven't seen dimpling on my ping pong table... maybe pinballs should not be steel
and we should be using ping pong balls. (of course, smaller ones)
Quoted from fanuminski:I haven't seen dimpling on my ping pong table... maybe pinballs should not be steel
and we should be using ping pong balls. (of course, smaller ones)
That could be hard on the back if we have to start nudging the game upwards to influence the bouncing.
Quoted from o-din:It just baffles me that some people don't even trust their own eyes enough that they would rather base their beliefs on a science project. Such is their life.
Eh, my eyes are shit.
Quoted from fanuminski:I haven't seen dimpling on my ping pong table... maybe pinballs should not be steel
and we should be using ping pong balls. (of course, smaller ones)
Thats it, from here on they must use power balls..
Quoted from fanuminski:I haven't seen dimpling on my ping pong table... maybe pinballs should not be steel
and we should be using ping pong balls. (of course, smaller ones)
Ya know...that's not as stupid as it sounds! Why DO the balls have to be solid metal?? 
Quoted from Manic:You went out and bought BM66
I must have been on glue
Quoted from wolfemaaan:please bring back Sledgehammer
Unknown (resized).jpgQuoted from Tomass:I don't get into back and forth arguments especially on a forum where anyone can say they know something, but my own eyes tell me all I need to know about dimpling. On my own restores as well, where I lay down CC thick enough to fill nicks and inserts and sanded flat. Then thousands of plays later I am still happy with the finish. Are there ANY dimples? Well none that I can see or feel. Can you get a microscope out and see some? No clue as I don't care if I can't see them. Say whatever you want, but like I say, one counter point is enough and anything beyond that is like arguing with the wall.
Ahh... a "restore" is your experience. I get it... you may have been lucky to have a decently hard piece of wood in the first place or it had already been pounded into submission before your CC job. OR it may simply be a low impact game that doesn't tend to produce any airballs or hopping. Take a game like CFTBL... the ball never leaves the surface.
But a NEW airball producing game with the apparently softer PF's is gonna dimple pretty badly... no matter what magic CC is used. Come look at my TWD (or most of them really)... and it has a nice CC job.
It's also just common sense. If you do your standard clear job on a thick piece of balsa wood I have and then we drop a pinball on it... what do you think would be the outcome?
And it's not arguing... it's "discussing"
Ok back to the regularly scheduled Sledgehammer talk and the occasional DR cartoon sketch. I have to confess I've never seen a Sledgehammer episode. Have I been missing out all these years?
Quoted from o-din:I must have been on glue
[quoted image]
Like when we furiously built model car and airplane kits as kids. Not knowing the high was the real addiction.
Quoted from Manic:Like when we furiously built model car and airplane kits as kids. Not knowing the high was the real addiction.
Testors was the shit. That DuPont crap just made a mess.
Quoted from fanuminski:check out this dimpling[quoted image]
If you want to post an animated gif, you've got to use the "Original size (no rescaling)" setting.
Stephen King.gifQuoted from o-din:I must have been on glue
[quoted image]
Oh, thanks! I was about to give in on the pool table dimples
Quoted from Manic:Like when we furiously built model car and airplane kits as kids. Not knowing the high was the real addiction.
pasted_image (resized).pngQuoted from Brijam:How many people think they will bring at least one completed game to the November show?
I think there will be 2 games there. Robert stated in the public announcement that RAZA prototypes will be there. I hope that means production prototypes with artwork on them.
Quoted from Brijam:How many people think they will bring at least one completed game to the November show?
0% chance. If Deeproot appears at the show at all, which is unlikely, they'll bring a box of lights and art that only superficially resembles a pinball machine. It will have barebones code and be essentially unplayable. This will be the last time that a Deeproot "pinball machine" will be seen in public. After 10-12 months of silence, the CEO of Deeproot will send out a press release in late 2020 explaining that "unforeseen circumstances" have prevented them from releasing any games. At this point, Deeproot will either be shuttered, or they will accept another round of investor money before the CEO sails off on a yacht. The end.
Quoted from ufotofu:0% chance. If Deeproot appears at the show at all, which is unlikely, they'll bring a box of lights and art that only superficially resembles a pinball machine. It will have barebones code and be essentially unplayable. This will be the last time that a Deeproot "pinball machine" will be seen in public. After 10-12 months of silence, the CEO of Deeproot will send out a press release in late 2020 explaining that "unforeseen circumstances" have prevented them from releasing any games. At this point, Deeproot will either be shuttered, or they will accept another round of investor money before the CEO sails off on a yacht. The end.
I see that you're quite the optimist
Quoted from ufotofu:0% chance. If Deeproot appears at the show at all, which is unlikely, they'll bring a box of lights and art that only superficially resembles a pinball machine.
Quoted from ufotofu:0% chance. If Deeproot appears at the show at all, which is unlikely, they'll bring a box of lights and art that only superficially resembles a pinball machine. It will have barebones code and be essentially unplayable.
That would mean that they have to be further behind in November then they were 2 - 3 months ago...
https://www.thisweekinpinball.com/the-deeproot-tour-whitewood-wonderland-and-the-cart-before-the-horse-3/
So basically: No.
Is it likely to set up a line in that 4 months inbetween and have dozens of games ready for shipping when showing a finished game in November?
Not likely, but not impossible and I'd bet that is the goal.
But they never promised that. They only promised a prototype,... wich allready was in quite a good state months ago.
Quoted from DS_Nadine:That would mean that they have to be further behind in November then they were 2 - 3 months ago...
https://www.thisweekinpinball.com/the-deeproot-tour-whitewood-wonderland-and-the-cart-before-the-horse-3/
So basically: No.
Is it likely to set up a line in that 4 months inbetween and have dozens of games ready for shipping when showing a finished game in November?
Not likely, but not impossible and I'd bet that is the goal.
But they never promised that. They only promised a prototype,... wich allready was in quite a good state months ago.
Ever the optimist.
Quoted from DS_Nadine:They only promised a prototype,... wich allready was in quite a good state months ago.
...and Deeproot promising something, historically, is proof that it's going to happen.
Quoted from ufotofu:...and Deeproot promising something, historically, is proof that it's going to happen.
They promised people to give them their (some/ set amount) money back if they wouldn't decide for a game.
And they did.
So: Your argument is invalid.
Quoted from DS_Nadine:But they never promised that. They only promised a prototype,... wich allready was in quite a good state months ago.
Oh, I think I missed an announcement somewhere. I thought they promised a number of completed, ready to buy pinball machines.
A prototype seems quite reasonable. American Pinball had the Houdini prototype ready in a very short amount of time, wasn't it six months?
Quoted from Brijam:Oh, I think I missed an announcement somewhere. I thought they promised a number of completed, ready to buy pinball machines.
Well, they did. 
But to their credit they admitted they would not be ready keep their promise half a year in advance.
Now it's:
"November 15-16, 2019
At a minimum, several RAZA prototypes will be available to play at the Houston Arcade Expo."
Quoted from Brijam:A prototype seems quite reasonable. American Pinball had the Houdini prototype ready in a very short amount of time, wasn't it six months?
Since they allready have a working prototype that should be no problem to bring them.
Question is how finished it'll be and how close to production/ release are they.
According to their initial statements they want to be able to deliver the games they show within 2 weeks.
While they don't say that anymore ("Fall 2019 - Summer 2020") my guess is that they still like to meet that goal.
Not saying that they will, not saying that they don't.
Quoted from Brijam:American Pinball had the Houdini prototype ready in a very short amount of time, wasn't it six months?
Four
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