(Topic ID: 203700)

deeproot Pinball thread


By pin2d

2 years ago



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#4201 4 months ago
Quoted from CLEllison:

IIRC the Star Wars release did so horribly

Roger Sharpe disagrees. See the interview in Pinball Magazine #1 for details.

Multimorphic is the king of modularity. Flipper/sling mech, buttons, playfield, and many of the electronics.

#4202 4 months ago
Quoted from frolic:

Here's a deeproot topic:
Some pin friends and I were discussing that the only plausible explanation for the number of games under development there is some sort of modular swap system. Otherwise the cash being spent is being wasted. Discuss.

The second option I posted is also plausible. lol.

#4203 4 months ago
Quoted from toyotaboy:

Maybe it's different with pinball because the most expensive part is the playfield. But in the early 80s with the invent of the Jamma connector, video game operators were gutting any cabinet they could find to put in the next pcb to earn again, often re-using the same buttons/joystick. This was especially true in the late 80s when fighting games brought back the interest to arcades and they were coming out so fast with street fighter and mortal kombat. It's why you now see so many retro arcades with the wrong cabinets and control panels

But the operator market was different then. Things moved FAST. Games were swapped out jamma style because you'd replace a non-earning game with a new one that would earn. Operators would have so many pieces, storage/space was an issue and it was cost effective to repurpose cabinets because if a game didn't earn anymore.. it had no resale value.

Pinball isn't like that these days. You don't have carcasses filling your warehouse.. you don't have off route games that have no value. You aren't putting out AFM on ice to put in MB. There is so much greenspace still that you try to put that AFM somewhere else to earn, or sell it.

TL:DR - unlike the 80s.. the 'out of fashion' game isn't dead weight these days.

#4204 4 months ago
Quoted from toyotaboy:

RFM sold more units than the original attack from mars. It sold more than any WPC-95 game. I think think there were 2 things holding back Pinball2000:

2. The dark glass needed to make the holograms show up made everything on the playfield dark.. it was also special glass that had to be ordered.

That glass made the playfield look even darker than season 8 Game of Thrones battle scenes. I couldn't see an effing thing. The ball would get lost halfway up the already shortened playfield. It sucked. That's why it failed with me. That, and people want to hit mechanical toys not holograms.

#4205 4 months ago
Quoted from CLEllison:

Some what but not the modular mechs. IIRC the Star Wars release did so horribly and was their demise so in essence RFM release couldnt save them. William's never got the chance to prove/disprove the kit route is the way to go.

I'd like to clear up a few things

Williams cut bait with pinball because Casinos were buying in such large volume and profit margins were WAY bigger, with less overhead machines were less costly to build , the pin2k was a disaster financially , but Williams saw what could be done with slots because of it

Next time you go to a casino look who made those themed slots

#4206 4 months ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

But the operator market was different then. Things moved FAST. Games were swapped out jamma style because you'd replace a non-earning game with a new one that would earn. Operators would have so many pieces, storage/space was an issue and it was cost effective to repurpose cabinets because if a game didn't earn anymore.. it had no resale value.
Pinball isn't like that these days. You don't have carcasses filling your warehouse.. you don't have off route games that have no value. You aren't putting out AFM on ice to put in MB. There is so much greenspace still that you try to put that AFM somewhere else to earn, or sell it.
TL:DR - unlike the 80s.. the 'out of fashion' game isn't dead weight these days.

Software rules updates have really helped out operators. If a game is not popular out of the gate, sometimes you can hit a home run later with a rules update that brings a player back to a game they previously were not fond of.

#4207 4 months ago
Quoted from cjmjmm2006:

If a game is not popular out of the gate, sometimes you can hit a home run later with a rules update that brings a player back to a game they previously were not fond of.

For pin players that can be true. I think for the majority of other "teenage Jimmy" players who put $1.00 in a machine and the game play sucks, they generally won't be coming back to it.

#4208 4 months ago
Quoted from Fulltilt:

For pin players that can be true. I think for the majority of other "teenage Jimmy" players who put $1.00 in a machine and the game play sucks, they generally won't be coming back to it.

It can go a bunch of different directions. Location pinball for casual players, in my opinion, is directly associated with how relatable a theme is to an individual or a group. People are loving Wonka. Some say gameplay and IP is not the best but overall it has been a good investment. Time will truly tell but it's out of the gate with a bang.

#4209 4 months ago
Quoted from CLEllison:

Now if DR has a "brain" that runs every single game with a simple change of a USB stick/sd card/ssd ... and swap the playfield out by removing a couple plugs .... THAT would also be huge for operators. No more lugging games around from location to location. Install a kit and done. DR could potentially cripple the SHIT out of Stern or JJP if they used this and of course the games were actually good.

I think you're forgetting things like cabinet art, backglass and toppers.

Are you an operator? Maybe your locations are different than mine, but the idea of a playfield swap on site, no matter how easy it is... just no. Hard no.

Quoted from CLEllison:

Who in their right mind wouldn't spend ~$3000 for a kit that gave you a whole new game?

What operator in their right mind wouldn't spend $2k more to just buy an entire second pinball machine that earns right alongside the first one?

#4210 4 months ago

Why is it so silent around here?

No news from deeproot alright.
But with a seemingly fully loaded/ mechanically "upped" Jurassic Park (Pro) from Stern, pinball got a lot harder for Deeproot - wanting to offer more while still wanting to compete pricewise.

Very exciting times!

#4211 4 months ago
Quoted from Brijam:

I think you're forgetting things like cabinet art, backglass and toppers.
Are you an operator? Maybe your locations are different than mine, but the idea of a playfield swap on site, no matter how easy it is... just no. Hard no.

What operator in their right mind wouldn't spend $2k more to just buy an entire second pinball machine that earns right alongside the first one?

That's the beauty, they could service both types. Those who want full machines or those who would buy kits. As far as artwork goes ,they could easily make replaceable/swappable encased artwork. And to answer your question, no I am not an operator. However I'm good friends with a couple. They both agreed that if it meant a quick artwork change and simply unplugging, removing pf, inserting new one, plugging back in and a new USB with code theyd be onboard for a couple reasons.
1.) No lugging a machine back to the shop and or moving locations on a regular basis.
2.) Frees up money when they can't afford to buy a whole new machine and when the title stops earning. When I hear quotes like earning ~ $180 a month .... good lord.
3.) One would think the "hit" for depreciation on a "kit" would be much less than on a whole machine.
4.) The home market would benefit due to limited funds and/or limited space.

Still waiting on DP to actually participate in this thread.

#4212 4 months ago

I just really hope that Deeproot walks away from the Premium, Special, Limited edition garbage money grab. Although i can understand the desire to offer them at a huge markup like all of the other manufacturers do. It'd be nice if you could just order the kits that you want and bolt them on to the base model.

#4213 4 months ago
Quoted from yaksplat:

I just really hope that Deeproot walks away from the Premium, Special, Limited edition garbage money grab. Although i can understand the desire to offer them at a huge markup like all of the other manufacturers do. It'd be nice if you could just order the kits that you want and bolt them on to the base model.

I think I read in an interview where Robert criticized the different levels of prices

deeproot please correct me if I'm wrong.

Also when will you be hiring?

#4214 4 months ago
Quoted from CLEllison:

That's the beauty, they could service both types. Those who want full machines or those who would buy kits. As far as artwork goes ,they could easily make replaceable/swappable encased artwork. And to answer your question, no I am not an operator. However I'm good friends with a couple. They both agreed that if it meant a quick artwork change and simply unplugging, removing pf, inserting new one, plugging back in and a new USB with code theyd be onboard for a couple reasons.
1.) No lugging a machine back to the shop and or moving locations on a regular basis.
2.) Frees up money when they can't afford to buy a whole new machine and when the title stops earning. When I hear quotes like earning ~ $180 a month .... good lord.
3.) One would think the "hit" for depreciation on a "kit" would be much less than on a whole machine.
4.) The home market would benefit due to limited funds and/or limited space.
Still waiting on DP to actually participate in this thread.

Every time DP participates in this thread, its a public relations disaster. Better they just get games going, then participate.

#4215 4 months ago
Quoted from dc2010:

I think I read in an interview where Robert criticized the different levels of prices

Why tf would anyone criticize this?

I will never understand why some people think that having more choices as a consumer is a bad thing. I like having different models with different features and different price tiers to choose from.

I have bought a Stern pro, premium and LE all in the last 2 years.

#4216 4 months ago
Quoted from RobT:

Why tf would anyone criticize this?
I will never understand why some people think that having more choices as a consumer is a bad thing. I like having different models with different features and different price tiers to choose from.
I have bought a Stern pro, premium and LE all in the last 2 years.

I can see your point, a fair point

I think stripping down a pin to meet a price point that folks can stomach has some merit

I think what he was trying to say is they want a full featured pin at a price point everyone can stomach, 12000 for a single pin that's not a boutique (very small run) is not affordable for alot of home buyers

Competition is great!
I love seeing all the new blood, that is what makes innovation happen!

#4217 4 months ago
Quoted from CLEllison:

That's the beauty, they could service both types. Those who want full machines or those who would buy kits. As far as artwork goes ,they could easily make replaceable/swappable encased artwork.

Really? Without adding significant cost to the cabinet? I'm less worried about the backbox but the sides of a pin take a lot of punishment on route. You have kids hanging off the sides, beer spills, what I like to call 'casual vandalism' - ("gee, I wonder if I can pry this off just to see if I can...").

I guess I'd have to see some actual working examples. It sounds pretty unbelievable to be honest, or expensive, or a pain in the ass to keep clean.

Quoted from CLEllison:

...if it meant a quick artwork change and simply unplugging, removing pf, inserting new one, plugging back in...

Those are some Very Big ifs. A fully assembled playfield with ramps and plastics and wired beneath is heavy and unwieldy. Your "removing pf, inserting pf" a bit of a scary operation without some kind of pulley system.

Quoted from CLEllison:

1.) No lugging a machine back to the shop and or moving locations on a regular basis.

I personally can move a pin in and out of a van and on site in a few minutes. It's really not a big deal. I can't see how installing a playfield without some kind of portable pulley or weird gadget would work without getting another person to help.

And transporting a fully populated playfield, I guess you could store it upright on its side, but it gives me the willies just thinking about it.

As far as I can see, this new system at least doubles my labor cost for transport and replacement, adds cost to the cabinet for some whiz-bang playfield hardware, adds cost for a magical removable artwork system, plus some kind of weird transporter/installer thingy for getting the pf in and out of the van and into the cabinet.

Quoted from CLEllison:

2.) Frees up money when they can't afford to buy a whole new machine and when the title stops earning. When I hear quotes like earning ~ $180 a month .... good lord.

I don't think you're looking at the math the way an operator looks at the math.

A pinball machine is generally an asset that holds a good part of its value, and if you're quite lucky, can even rise in value.

Every operator is different but when a new pin stops meeting our earnings requirements, we sell it or find another home for the pin at a site where the earnings don't justify a brand new machine.

Look at it this way, would you rather have a paid off pin earning $180 a month or pay storage costs on a playfield gathering dust?

Quoted from CLEllison:

3.) One would think the "hit" for depreciation on a "kit" would be much less than on a whole machine.

I'm not an economist, but isn't depreciation greatly affected by the potential market size of buyers (e.g. demand?). In other words, all other things being equal, a smaller marketplace of buyers would generally equate to a higher depreciation, wouldn't it?

Maybe I'm wrong there. The examples I can think of would be for video game peripherals vs. actual video game consoles, in my experience the consoles hold far more value than the peripherals.

Quoted from CLEllison:

4.) The home market would benefit due to limited funds and/or limited space.

Maybe. One can just as easily claim that due to limited space people don't have room to store a playfield. Either way it's just speculation.

Quoted from CLEllison:

Still waiting on DP to actually participate in this thread.

Given their track record I'd rather they waited until they had a product.

-8
#4218 4 months ago
Quoted from Brijam:

Really? Without adding significant cost to the cabinet? I'm less worried about the backbox but the sides of a pin take a lot of punishment on route. You have kids hanging off the sides, beer spills, what I like to call 'casual vandalism' - ("gee, I wonder if I can pry this off just to see if I can...").
I guess I'd have to see some actual working examples. It sounds pretty unbelievable to be honest, or expensive, or a pain in the ass to keep clean.

Those are some Very Big ifs. A fully assembled playfield with ramps and plastics and wired beneath is heavy and unwieldy. Your "removing pf, inserting pf" a bit of a scary operation without some kind of pulley system.

I personally can move a pin in and out of a van and on site in a few minutes. It's really not a big deal. I can't see how installing a playfield without some kind of portable pulley or weird gadget would work without getting another person to help.
And transporting a fully populated playfield, I guess you could store it upright on its side, but it gives me the willies just thinking about it.
As far as I can see, this new system at least doubles my labor cost for transport and replacement, adds cost to the cabinet for some whiz-bang playfield hardware, adds cost for a magical removable artwork system, plus some kind of weird transporter/installer thingy for getting the pf in and out of the van and into the cabinet.

I don't think you're looking at the math the way an operator looks at the math.
A pinball machine is generally an asset that holds a good part of its value, and if you're quite lucky, can even rise in value.
Every operator is different but when a new pin stops meeting our earnings requirements, we sell it or find another home for the pin at a site where the earnings don't justify a brand new machine.
Look at it this way, would you rather have a paid off pin earning $180 a month or pay storage costs on a playfield gathering dust?

I'm not an economist, but isn't depreciation greatly affected by the potential market size of buyers (e.g. demand?). In other words, all other things being equal, a smaller marketplace of buyers would generally equate to a higher depreciation, wouldn't it?
Maybe I'm wrong there. The examples I can think of would be for video game peripherals vs. actual video game consoles, in my experience the consoles hold far more value than the peripherals.

Maybe. One can just as easily claim that due to limited space people don't have room to store a playfield. Either way it's just speculation.

Given their track record I'd rather they waited until they had a product.

Ok, whatever you say is the Gods honest truth. Next.

#4219 4 months ago
Quoted from RobT:

Why tf would anyone criticize this?
I will never understand why some people think that having more choices as a consumer is a bad thing. I like having different models with different features and different price tiers to choose from.
I have bought a Stern pro, premium and LE all in the last 2 years.

But wouldn't you like to be able to buy the base model and then easily buy kits to upgrade it later if you wanted? Some upgrades are easy bolt on's, but other upgrades (cabinet art) would be tied to a machine version. What make me think this way is the Monster Bash remake. Looking at the variations, I'd really only want the upgraded display and the shaker. But i don't want to spend an extra $2k for these two items since i don't care about the rest of the included upgrades.

#4220 4 months ago
Quoted from yaksplat:

But wouldn't you like to be able to buy the base model and then easily buy kits to upgrade it later if you wanted? Some upgrades are easy bolt on's, but other upgrades (cabinet art) would be tied to a machine version. What make me think this way is the Monster Bash remake. Looking at the variations, I'd really only want the upgraded display and the shaker. But i don't want to spend an extra $2k for these two items since i don't care about the rest of the included upgrades.

So you are asking for even more options than the 3 tiers that Stern currently provides. We want a lot of things, don't we?

#4221 4 months ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

Why is it so silent around here?
No news from deeproot alright.
But with a seemingly fully loaded/ mechanically "upped" Jurassic Park (Pro) from Stern, pinball got a lot harder for Deeproot - wanting to offer more while still wanting to compete pricewise.
Very exciting times!

I take everything back! XD

#4222 4 months ago
Quoted from RobT:

So you are asking for even more options than the 3 tiers that Stern currently provides. We want a lot of things, don't we?

Well, it doesn't look like the piles of machine levels are going anywhere. Best case would still be the single version release.

#4223 4 months ago
Quoted from yaksplat:

Best case would still be the single version release.

Completely disagree.

#4224 4 months ago

I think people believe that if they only make one version of a game itll be LE grade at pro prices. I hate stripped down games as much as anyone, but that's just not going to happen.

#4225 4 months ago
Quoted from RobT:

Completely disagree.

Do you not like the idea of a complete game?

#4226 4 months ago
Quoted from yaksplat:

Do you not like the idea of a complete game?

I like the idea of a game priced well below LE price and plays just as good. In fact I prefer many pros over premium/LE.

#4227 4 months ago

I like the idea of a game actually getting to production.

#4228 4 months ago
Quoted from NoQuarters:

I like the idea of a game actually getting to production.

don't be ridiculous. We need more art drips, followed by some cryptic videos, followed by a "this is a game changer" pod cast, followed by a prototype showing up at a show, followed by "shipping in 2 weeks" for another year.

#4229 4 months ago
Quoted from frolic:

don't be ridiculous. We need more art drips, followed by some cryptic videos, followed by a "this is a game changer" pod cast, followed by a prototype showing up at a show, followed by "shipping in 2 weeks" for another year.

JPOP was hired in september 2017, and there was talk of this company even before then. It's been approximately 694 days (2.6 years) now since this company started.
https://www.tickcounter.com/countup/122329/my-count-up

22
#4230 4 months ago

I'm sporting wood over the new Jurassic Park2 release and it looks like Stern has earned my business back after a very long layoff.
I can be fickle with my short attention span but Deeproot is losing me here.

18
#4231 4 months ago
Quoted from Mr68:

I'm sporting wood over the new Jurassic Park2 release and it looks like Stern has earned my business back

Got that right. Keith Elwin design. Game play looks fast. After Iron Maiden I wondered if Keith had another great game in him. And it looks like he knocked another one out of the park.

LTG : )

19
#4232 4 months ago
Quoted from CLEllison:

Ok, whatever you say is the Gods honest truth. Next.

The gods honest truth is that the kit thing has been tried many times before and it’s always a failure.

It’s a dumb idea that doesn’t work in pinball. People just don’t want swappable playfield and “kits.”

#4233 4 months ago
Quoted from LTG:

And it looks like he knocked another one out of the park.
LTG : )

Pun intended?

#4234 4 months ago
Quoted from ZNET:

Pun intended?

Wasn't intended.

Is cute.

Thank you for pointing that out.
LTG : )

#4235 4 months ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

The gods honest truth is that the kit thing has been tried many times before and it’s always a failure.
It’s a dumb idea that doesn’t work in pinball. People just don’t want swappable playfield and “kits.”

Exactly!! Plus, what looks cooler than a row of pins?? That was a rhetorical question in case you "kit" guys were thinking there was actually an alternative answer.

#4236 4 months ago
Quoted from Honch:

Exactly!! Plus, what looks cooler than a row of pins?? That was a rhetorical question in case you "kit" guys were thinking there was actually an alternative answer.

How about these pics of gamerooms of the future!
crates (resized).png

pasted_image (resized).png
#4237 4 months ago

Quick, how many Heighway owners ever did this even once?

#4238 4 months ago
Quoted from Oldgoat:

How about these pics of gamerooms of the future!
[quoted image][quoted image]

Sweet!! But you forgot the pic of the lone cabinet in the corner.

#4239 4 months ago
Quoted from Aurich:

Quick, how many Heighway owners ever did this even once?

Zero, because that's how many conversion kits they shipped?

#4240 4 months ago
Quoted from Aurich:

Quick, how many Heighway owners ever did this even once?

My collection is limited by how much space I can fit in my game room, so if a company that actually sold games (such as Stern) did this, I would own a bunch more games, even if I couldn't have every one setup all the time.

I understand your point that new companies should focus on making games at all, but I think there's value in being able to swap games easily.

#4241 4 months ago
Quoted from Aurich:

Quick, how many Heighway owners ever did this even once?

Quoted from CrazyLevi:

The gods honest truth is that the kit thing has been tried many times before and it’s always a failure.
It’s a dumb idea that doesn’t work in pinball. People just don’t want swappable playfield and “kits.”

In my early years of collecting I did try something like this with classic Bally SS pins. I had a donor cab and several different playfields/sound boards to swap out to play different titles. Even had a rack built to hold the playfields. My donor cab was set up with an Altek MPU board and I use different sounds boards. Needless to say, after swapping a few playfields/sound boards around it grew old real quick. On the other hand. If I was in a position where space was limited I would have probably kept the setup.

#4242 4 months ago

They mentioned no interchangeable playfields at Expo and a single tier one price point

#4243 4 months ago

All this talk about "swappable games" is moot. Ya'll know you can do this yourself TODAY, right? For instance:

-Buy any WMS system 6/7 game. Or 9-11 game. You might already have one...
-MAYBE that game was a project with a replacement board set like the Rottendog 327 or 911. Those boards support ALL games made on the platform, you don't even need ROMs, you can just toggle some switches.

Got the above? GREAT! Be on the lookout for a playfield from any other game designed on that platform. Lots of them on Ebay and Pinside, sometimes complete, sometimes needing work, but almost always FAR cheaper than the cost of the whole game! And staying within the same gen, most (not ALL, but most) of the time they even the same cabinet: you can put Blackout in your Firepower cab. Or Bad Cats in your Whirlwind. EASY right?

Maybe or maybe not, everyone has their own personal threshold of tolerable hassle... (say nothing of translating backbox features)... but what is proven is almost NOBODY does this by choice as their standard, preferred, or even grudgingly accepted mode of collecting or play. Incidental troubleshooting, barn finding, frankensteining, or TOLERATING until working their way to something better and more appropriate, is about the only case.

So is there a market for the spare/swap playfield feature as a unique selling point? I'd say no: it's nothing new or revolutionary, it's just a PITA.

To invoke a Cargument: swappable games are the tweel of pinball: Always promised as a revolution, always felled by stupid complexity with major real-world flaws and limited use cases.

#4244 4 months ago

I disassemble my games to get them out of my basement. Pulling playfields solo is very awkward, and they are just heavy enough to be a real pain in the ass to do solo. There is a real risk of scratching the cabinet every time. That's the main reason it's never going to fly.

#4245 4 months ago
Quoted from goingincirclez:

To invoke a Cargument

I know that some dudes like to put a Chevy engine in a Ford. But rarely want to put the Ford engine back.

#4246 4 months ago

But no one puts that shit in a mopar

#4248 4 months ago
Quoted from Jjsmooth:

But no one puts that shit in a mopar

True, but doesn't mopar already have an engine swap kit for their '34 Highboy?

#4249 4 months ago
Quoted from Maide:

My collection is limited by how much space I can fit in my game room, so if a company that actually sold games (such as Stern) did this, I would own a bunch more games, even if I couldn't have every one setup all the time.

I understand your point that new companies should focus on making games at all, but I think there's value in being able to swap games easily.

If swappable games are what you want, let me introduce you to @multimorphic
Producing games right now with playfield modules that can be swapped in a minute or two.
https://www.multimorphic.com/#learn_more
Many videos at https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=multimorphic+p3

#4250 4 months ago

I can't believe the swappable playfield is still a thing. 19 years ago Pin2k did this. I have known lots of people with an RFM and a SWEp1 playfield in the closet that will never go back in the cabinet. Then when they go to sell the game they have to try and make a deal to unload it all or be stuck with the PF.

Full Throttle is a decent game. But if Heighway ever shipped those Alien kits you'd never see FT again.

You will keep your favorite installed, or for Ops the one that makes the most coin.

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