(Topic ID: 203700)

deeproot Pinball thread


By pin2d

1 year ago



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There are 3415 posts in this topic. You are on page 68 of 69.
#3351 15 days ago
Quoted from iceman44:

DR has to "deliver" games either in person or to a shipper by June 30th. 3 games are supposed to be presented for selection 30 days prior.
If "delivery" doesn't occur by June 30th then "customer" is entitled to compensation in the amount of the "cumulative deposit". Customer will have the option within 180 days from "Delivery date" to roll the credit forward by submitting the request in writing.
I'm just reading directly from the contract. Pretty simple.
Robert actually reached out to some people like myself to get the agreements in before May 31st, which i had forgotten about. And he didn't have to do that.

So you can cash out? That seems like the best option. It's not like they're going to give you the multiple years of interest that could have been earned in the bank/stock market. Maybe buy something when they're ready to ship something.

#3352 15 days ago
Quoted from iceman44:

DR has to "deliver" games either in person or to a shipper by June 30th. 3 games are supposed to be presented for selection 30 days prior.
If "delivery" doesn't occur by June 30th then "customer" is entitled to compensation in the amount of the "cumulative deposit". Customer will have the option within 180 days from "Delivery date" to roll the credit forward by submitting the request in writing.
I'm just reading directly from the contract. Pretty simple.
Robert actually reached out to some people like myself to get the agreements in before May 31st, which i had forgotten about. And he didn't have to do that.

The way you described things there is no penalty for Deeproot being late. Either they return deposits or hold deposits at owner’s request for later pin. In this case the best play is to request your money back. Once money is in hand, consider using it to buy a game that physically exists - one from JJP, CGC, Spooky, AP or Stern.

My understanding of the Deeproot agreement is much different, although I am not a claimant. In addition to your money returned, you are entitled to one of the games. So the penalty was Deeproot losing your $4600 deposit while still providing you a game a few weeks following availability. It was their promise to deliver said product by said date and this penalty provided confidence to those claimants, many of whom then ponied up $4k to Deeproot.

I could be dead wrong about this point, but it seems like a question mark. I also recall the agreement was about ten pages long and it contained much jargon (I was thinking while reading that maybe I wasn’t smart enough to be a Deeproot customer). Do we know how many claims were received? Guess 100 claims @ $5k per pin is $.5M of deposits to be returned and a penalty of $.5M when those games are eventually built.

#3353 15 days ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

The way you described things there is no penalty for Deeproot being late. Either they return deposits or hold deposits at owner’s request for later pin. In this case the best play is to request your money back. Once money is in hand, consider using it to buy a game that physically exists - one from JJP, CGC, Spooky, AP or Stern.
My understanding of the Deeproot agreement is much different, although I am not a claimant. In addition to your money returned, you are entitled to one of the games. So the penalty was Deeproot losing your $4600 deposit while still providing you a game a few weeks following availability. It was their promise to deliver said product by said date and this penalty provided confidence to those claimants, many of whom then ponied up $4k to Deeproot.
I could be dead wrong about this point, but it seems like a question mark. I also recall the agreement was about ten pages long and it contained much jargon (I was thinking while reading that maybe I wasn’t smart enough to be a Deeproot customer). Do we know how many claims were received? Guess 100 claims @ $5k per pin is $.5M of deposits to be returned and a penalty of $.5M when those games are eventually built.

We started out with nothing until DR came along and brought in Jpop like him or not

If one had $5k with Jpop, you get your $5k deposit with him from DR per the agreement

That’s a lot better than a poke in the eye

#3354 15 days ago
Quoted from TreyBo69:

So you can cash out?

Iceman is in it for the pinball, not the money. I can see that within every post he makes when referring to the DR agreement.

#3355 15 days ago
Quoted from iceman44:

We started out with nothing until DR came along and brought in Jpop like him or not
If one had $5k with Jpop, you get your $5k deposit with him from DR per the agreement
That’s a lot better than a poke in the eye

Isn't there also an option to just have DP pay you back your JPop deposit if they're not shipping games on-schedule??

#3356 15 days ago
Quoted from JodyG:

Pinball is easy when you are burning through 750k of other peoples money every month with no money coming back in.

Lets wait and see before we throw shade!!

#3357 15 days ago
Quoted from fosaisu:

Isn't there also an option to just have DP pay you back your JPop deposit if they're not shipping games on-schedule??

That’s upon default of non delivery by June 30th. Within 60 days. Full cash refund

I prefer a pinball machine regardless of having to wait. I’ve gotta a lot of experience in waiting

#3358 15 days ago
Quoted from iceman44:

That’s upon default of non delivery by June 30th. Within 60 days. Full cash refund
I prefer a pinball machine regardless of having to wait. I’ve gotta a lot of experience in waiting

What’s the line on the races today? I want a $3 trifecta ticket on what gets delivered first. You have production schedules, right? I’ll bet Alien fully redesigned and with B/W parts followed by Deeproot Pinball #1 followed by TBL shipping to EA’s - all crossing the line by Christmas 2019. I figure if the odds are 1 in a million, $3M ought to be enough to retire. On the other hand, I can afford to lose $3 and realize I am flushing money down the toilet at the onset.

#3359 15 days ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

What’s the line on the races today? I want a $3 trifecta ticket on what gets delivered first. You have production schedules, right? I’ll bet Alien fully redesigned and with B/W parts followed by Deeproot Pinball #1 followed by TBL shipping to EA’s - all crossing the line by Christmas 2019. I figure if the odds are 1 in a million, $3M ought to be enough to retire. On the other hand, I can afford to lose $3 and realize I am flushing money down the toilet at the onset.

Yeah, who knows

#3360 15 days ago
Quoted from fosaisu:

Isn't there also an option to just have DP pay you back your JPop deposit if they're not shipping games on-schedule??

I'm still trying to figure all of this out in terms of a contractual obligation.

Did Deeproot buy out Zidware? I'm guessing the answer is no. So what legal obligation does Deeproot have to any of the Zidware buyers? Again, I am guessing they don't have one. If so, it makes sense that this agreement is called a "Goodwill Agreement." But still, what consideration is being paid by the Zidware buyers to Deeproot that would make the Goodwill Agreement enforceable? Is it giving up the right to sue Zidware/Jpop? If so, Deeproot would have to be considered some kind of third party beneficiary to make that consideration (giving up the right to sue Zidware) valid against Deeproot.

A lot of this doesn't make sense to me.

#3361 15 days ago
Quoted from RobT:

I'm still trying to figure all of this out in terms of a contractual obligation.
Did Deeproot buy out Zidware? I'm guessing the answer is no. So what legal obligation does Deeproot have to any of the Zidware buyers? Again, I am guessing they don't have one. If so, it makes sense that this agreement is called a "Goodwill Agreement." But still, what consideration is being paid by the Zidware buyers to Deeproot that would make the Goodwill Agreement enforceable? Is it giving up the right to sue Zidware/Jpop? If so, Deeproot would have to be considered some kind of third party beneficiary to make that consideration (giving up the right to sue Zidware) valid against Deeproot.
A lot of this doesn't make sense to me.

I’ve always kinda assumed Deep Root has gotten JPop’s patents. That was the only thing of value of Zidware (unless you truly believe JPop is a true visionary that can’t be replaced). And take it for what you will, East Texas courts are well known for patent lawsuits.

#3362 14 days ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

What’s the line on the races today? I want a $3 trifecta ticket on what gets delivered first. You have production schedules, right? I’ll bet Alien fully redesigned and with B/W parts followed by Deeproot Pinball #1 followed by TBL shipping to EA’s - all crossing the line by Christmas 2019. I figure if the odds are 1 in a million, $3M ought to be enough to retire. On the other hand, I can afford to lose $3 and realize I am flushing money down the toilet at the onset.

The horses so far:
1. Deeproot delivers a pinball machine
2. Alien redesigned and released by CGC
3. Stern 30th Anniversary book delivered by Paperflock
4. The Big Lebowski machines delivered to early adopters
5. Stern releases new code for Ghostbusters

...did I miss any?

#3363 14 days ago
Quoted from Rondogg:

The horses so far:
1. Deeproot delivers a pinball machine
2. Alien redesigned and released by CGC
3. Stern 30th Anniversary book delivered by Paperflock
4. The Big Lebowski machines delivered to early adopters
5. Stern releases new code for Ghostbusters
...did I miss any?

6. Star Wars topper receives final approval and begins delivery.

#3364 14 days ago

Star Wars topper has to be the favorite horse right now.

#3365 14 days ago
Quoted from TreyBo69:

I’ve always kinda assumed Deep Root has gotten JPop’s patents. That was the only thing of value of Zidware (unless you truly believe JPop is a true visionary that can’t be replaced). And take it for what you will, East Texas courts are well known for patent lawsuits.

Even if that's true, that does not explain what the consideration given by Zidware buyers to Deeproot is.

#3366 14 days ago
Quoted from jellikit:

6. Star Wars topper receives final approval and begins delivery.

holy crap! that thing isn't released yet either??

#3367 14 days ago
Quoted from RobT:

Even if that's true, that does not explain what the consideration given by Zidware buyers to Deeproot is.

Pinball is a relatively small-niche hobby. I wouldn't even consider a new JPop game from Deeproot unless they made things right with his past customers. I assume there must be others who feel the same. While there likely is little legal repercussions, I assume the negative PR must outweigh the cost of fulfilling those debts. I don't feel JPop is worth that, at this point, but obviously Deeproot disagrees. Either way, I applaud Deeproot for taking on those debts and settling with Applejuice and others.

#3368 14 days ago
Quoted from jellikit:

6. Star Wars topper receives final approval and begins delivery.

JJP has a few promising entries in today’s race.

7 POTC’s GOAT

8 WonkaHype Isreal

#3369 14 days ago
Quoted from lpeters82:

Pinball is a relatively small-niche hobby. I wouldn't even consider a new JPop game from Deeproot unless they made things right with his past customers. I assume there must be others who feel the same. While there likely is little legal repercussions, I assume the negative PR must outweigh the cost of fulfilling those debts. I don't feel JPop is worth that, at this point, but obviously Deeproot disagrees. Either way, I applaud Deeproot for taking on those debts and settling with Applejuice and others.

Most pinheads could care less about jpops previous stupidity and the gambling of other pinheads. If his designs are good, they will sell. There must be something more here. I'm assuming they acquired his designs and patents, and I'm guessing he's working for dirt until things are squared up.

#3370 14 days ago
Quoted from RobT:

Even if that's true, that does not explain what the consideration given by Zidware buyers to Deeproot is.

Well I'll let Robert chime in if he wants to, per the agreement, I'm not gonna quote the exact language.

#3371 14 days ago
Quoted from RobT:

Even if that's true, that does not explain what the consideration given by Zidware buyers to Deeproot is.

JPop could have sold them for dirt if deeproot would help with all of Zidware's legal liabilities.

JPop is the kinda guy who counter-sues people who he wronged. I don't think it's out of the realm of possibilities he'd be a patent troll. Williams and Data East used to go at one another in the past over patents and trademarks.

Of course maybe deeproot really just does value the guy's artistic vision and they want to defuse the situation. Who knows...

#3372 14 days ago
Quoted from lpeters82:

Pinball is a relatively small-niche hobby. I wouldn't even consider a new JPop game from Deeproot unless they made things right with his past customers. I assume there must be others who feel the same. While there likely is little legal repercussions, I assume the negative PR must outweigh the cost of fulfilling those debts. I don't feel JPop is worth that, at this point, but obviously Deeproot disagrees. Either way, I applaud Deeproot for taking on those debts and settling with Applejuice and others.

So it all comes down to goodwill. And that's great, but man, it sure seems like they are paying an awful lot for that goodwill.

#3373 14 days ago

I think the play that DR is making is based on the desire to create another set of 4 machines like the original 4 that sold well in the 90’s, and that JPop can hopefully recreate the same “magic”. And there are a lot of loyal followers of JPop’s machines and they are not players but operators. People seem to forget these titles made a bunch of operators a lot of money in the nineties, and who would not want another piece of that? JPop had a pinball vision back in the 90’s, but he had help, as I have heard a lot of rumor and mummers over the years that all four of JPop’s titles needed a lot of help from others to get the machines actually built. I never put much faith in rumors, but they came out of mouths of people who would have known, so I always put JPop down as a bit of a idiot savant on pinball design, with flashes of briliance that inspired others with his vision, and that the others then went and made it work. A title sells because it makes money. JPops machines made money. Ergo, DR is hoping that this can be recreated again in the 2020’s. I think that they are trying to brush some of that “bad” JPop taste out of peoples mouths and just trying to limit the bad publicity they knew that hiring JPop was going to cause. I say good luck DR, lets see what you got.

10
#3374 14 days ago
Quoted from Bublehead:

A title sells because it makes money. JPops machines made money

CV did so bad on route the games were sold alright ..... NIB at fire sale prices

#3375 14 days ago
Quoted from RobT:

So it all comes down to goodwill. And that's great, but man, it sure seems like they are paying an awful lot for that goodwill.

I don't disagree, but look what happened with American Pinball. They started out with JPop and, following a wave of criticism, decided he wasn't worth the baggage. Deeproot seems to feel differently. Perhaps if they can surround him with enough talent it will work out.

#3376 14 days ago

There is a smaller niche in the niche pinball market, it's pinball designers. Obviously Jpop was at a dead end as a business owner, so his only chance was to get hired again. On the other hand, it's easier to raise money on a project at a paper level with some big names in the team. So there is a mutual interest there, even if it comes with an "investment" cost to deal with Jpop's mistakes.

In any case I'm glad the early backers may have a way to recover their money or get a pinball, I still hope the same goes with TBL's EA (and that they resume production !)

#3377 14 days ago
Quoted from TecumsehPlissken:

CV did so bad on route the games were sold alright ..... NIB at fire sale prices

For real.

None of his games were big sellers. Where do people come up with this stuff?

#3378 14 days ago
Quoted from TecumsehPlissken:

CV did so bad on route the games were sold alright ..... NIB at fire sale prices

$1300.00 NIB at the '98 Expo. At least 10 as I remember. I passed as did my son. Game was considered a dog at the time.

#3379 14 days ago
Quoted from DennisDodel:

$1300.00 NIB at the '98 Expo. At least 10 as I remember. I passed as did my son. Game was considered a dog at the time.

So you could have bought the whole stock and make 10 times the money a decade after !

#3380 14 days ago
Quoted from Bublehead:

I think the play that DR is making is based on the desire to create another set of 4 machines like the original 4 that sold well in the 90’s, and that JPop can hopefully recreate the same “magic”. And there are a lot of loyal followers of JPop’s machines and they are not players but operators. People seem to forget these titles made a bunch of operators a lot of money in the nineties, and who would not want another piece of that? JPop had a pinball vision back in the 90’s, but he had help, as I have heard a lot of rumor and mummers over the years that all four of JPop’s titles needed a lot of help from others to get the machines actually built. I never put much faith in rumors, but they came out of mouths of people who would have known, so I always put JPop down as a bit of a idiot savant on pinball design, with flashes of briliance that inspired others with his vision, and that the others then went and made it work. A title sells because it makes money. JPops machines made money. Ergo, DR is hoping that this can be recreated again in the 2020’s. I think that they are trying to brush some of that “bad” JPop taste out of peoples mouths and just trying to limit the bad publicity they knew that hiring JPop was going to cause. I say good luck DR, lets see what you got.

I opened every machine John has made in the 90s brand new. Zero of them at the time earned well or even significantly. I can also assure you that CV and WCS made it to close out which top titles from then never did. I was also discounted a totan that I forgot I had until I opened it when I moved to my new house. Either way the games are desirable to collectors now and they do earn better now than they ever did back then with TOM being the exception. Now I am not saying they are not beautiful and all that, we are strictly talking about at the coin box and the amount of units sold at retail.

#3381 14 days ago

To be fair, wasn't everything crashing around that time? I've had vendors tell stories of regrets for selling off during that period.

#3382 14 days ago

Matter of fact Dennis and I checked a few weeks ago there are still CV and SWE1 NIB laying around. Lol

#3383 14 days ago
Quoted from DennisDodel:

Game was considered a dog at the time.

I had one in my business in the early 2000's. Still a dog. Beautiful machine limping along at a buck or two a week. Not sad to see it go.

LTG : )

#3384 14 days ago

No MM earned. MB earned and sold out at retail.

#3385 14 days ago
Quoted from LTG:

I had one in my business in the early 2000's. Still a dog. Beautiful machine limping along at a buck or two a week. Not sad to see it go.
LTG : )

Same goes in video games (my other hobby), the best vintage ones sell for nothing as they were mass produced, and the ones called "rarities" were actually garbage back in the days, thrown in the 1$ basket and quickly withdrawn from production.

It makes we wonder if the best investment isn't to buy all the crap and store it in box for the next 20 years !

#3386 14 days ago
Quoted from cjmjmm2006:

Matter of fact Dennis and I checked a few weeks ago there are still CV and SWE1 NIB laying around. Lol

Where are there CV NIB and are they being sold?

#3387 14 days ago
Quoted from DennisDodel:

$1300.00 NIB at the '98 Expo. At least 10 as I remember. I passed as did my son. Game was considered a dog at the time.

Local alley got two of them at $1895.00 each

#3388 14 days ago
Quoted from harryhoudini:

Where are there CV NIB and are they being sold?

Nah. I don't really sell anything. That's part of my problem.

#3389 14 days ago
Quoted from chad:

Local alley got two of them at $1895.00 each

I remember my dad calling me and asking if I thought we should buy a Rowe wall box, I think it was a starbrite at full retail and be given a CV from Betson or if we should save $950. I thought CV in parts was worth $950 so that's why we had some extras. I also have a few that were pillaged for parts but never played. Haha. That game was considered a dog in the 90s

#3390 14 days ago
Quoted from cjmjmm2006:

Nah. I don't really sell anything. That's part of my problem.

Oooh in your collection, got it. Thought you were saying they were out in the wild.

#3391 14 days ago
Quoted from RobT:

So it all comes down to goodwill. And that's great, but man, it sure seems like they are paying an awful lot for that goodwill.

There really aren't that many claimants i don't think. I think the max was 85 per their count? No idea how many took advantage of it. Maybe 15 or 20 at the time i sent mine in?

"$10 and other good and valuable consideration" The sufficiency of consideration is not an issue in the State of Texas. "Parties agree", a meeting of the minds"/

#3392 14 days ago

Oh yeah we still have them somewhere

#3393 14 days ago
Quoted from adol75:

So you could have bought the whole stock and make 10 times the money a decade after !

Yup.

#3394 14 days ago

As long as we are reliving dreams ... did you buy many of the spare CV playfields that went for $25? That would have been a ridiculous return if you bought 10 and could sell each for $800 today. That’s 3200% or vaguely 100% annually for 32 years. If you were a stock broker, people would read your whispers

#3395 14 days ago
Quoted from DennisDodel:

$1300.00 NIB at the '98 Expo. At least 10 as I remember. I passed as did my son. Game was considered a dog at the time.

Wow, that's $2000 adjusted for inflation. I can't imagine passing up a decent nib game today for $2000.

#3396 14 days ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

As long as we are reliving dreams ... did you buy many of the spare CV playfields that went for $25? That would have been a ridiculous return if you bought 10 and could sell each for $800 today. That’s 3200% or vaguely 100% annually for 32 years. If you were a stock broker, people would read your whispers

I don't think those ever to our access. I do have a ton of 80s Bally fields populated. I have a handful of 90s game fields but those were given to me at Williams when we visited.

#3397 14 days ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

As long as we are reliving dreams ... did you buy many of the spare CV playfields that went for $25? That would have been a ridiculous return if you bought 10 and could sell each for $800 today. That’s 3200% or vaguely 100% annually for 32 years. If you were a stock broker, people would read your whispers

No CV playfields but I did buy 12 each of Fire!, Space Station, and F-14 playfields that Roger Sharpe rescued from the trash and brought to one of the Expos. 10 bucks each. Still bundled in stacks of four as I remember. Then I won a raffle for 12 more playfields! Every friend and relative of mine had them hanging on their basement walls. At least until they started selling for 200+ bucks each. Then they started disappearing.

There were also stacks of translites for the above games plus Big Guns. They were about 2 bucks each I think. Also complete playfield plastics sets. Crazy times.

#3398 14 days ago

Honestly guys, every time I visit this thread I keep scrolling until I see the deeproot logo and if I don't, I just back out. Sooooo much fluff and no substance. Continue your discussion but lord, I can't wait for an official announcement.

-Doug

#3399 14 days ago
Quoted from halflip87:Honestly guys, every time I visit this thread I keep scrolling until I see the deeproot logo and if I don't, I just back out. Sooooo much fluff and no substance.

Never mind this thread, you just described Pinside as a whole.

#3400 14 days ago
Quoted from DennisDodel:

No CV playfields but I did buy 12 each of Fire!, Space Station, and F-14 playfields that Roger Sharpe rescued from the trash and brought to one of the Expos. 10 bucks each. Still bundled in stacks of four as I remember. Then I won a raffle for 12 more playfields! Every friend and relative of mine had them hanging on their basement walls. At least until they started selling for 200+ bucks each. Then they started disappearing.
There were also stacks of translites for the above games plus Big Guns. They were about 2 bucks each I think. Also complete playfield plastics sets. Crazy times.

Had a chance to buy 10 CP playfields @$150 each a few years back and passed out of principle. $10 for a playfield is juicy my friend.

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