(Topic ID: 203700)

deeproot Pinball thread

By pin2d

6 years ago


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There are 33,610 posts in this topic. You are on page 667 of 673.
#33301 6 months ago

Welp - someone is going to have to take over refreshing the docket. I'm already at $50 in fees for this quarter - won't be downloading anything until the next year!

#33302 6 months ago
Quoted from Inside:

Welp - someone is going to have to take over refreshing the docket. I'm already at $50 in fees for this quarter - won't be downloading anything until the next year!

Just charge it to deeproot, that way it is free.

#33303 6 months ago
Quoted from Inside:

Welp - someone is going to have to take over refreshing the docket. I'm already at $50 in fees for this quarter - won't be downloading anything until the next year!

Send me your Venmo address and I'll split the cost with you. Going forward too.

#33304 6 months ago
Quoted from Mr68:

Send me your Venmo address and I'll split the cost with you. Going forward too.

Ah that's ok - you get $30 of credits every quarter, buuut that's only if you view less than 300 pages. Once you view more than 300 pages you gotta pay for them all.

You can just get a PACER account and then download the ReCAP extension from https://free.law/recap

Then you can look at the docket on Courtlistener (https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/60223430/securities-and-exchange-commission-v-mueller/). If you see a button that says "Buy on Pacer," click on it -- then it'll take you directly to the court docket and you can view the document there. Once you view the document, the RECAP extension will automatically upload it to courtlistener.com.

#33305 6 months ago

I've never been disciplined enough to monitor the pacer fees. Have put forward a few hundred toward it over the years. Worth the intrigue. (Worth the intrigue?)

#33306 6 months ago

Interesting stuff from both sides regarding what content from exhibits introduced by the other side they want the judge to not allow to be included at trial. Mueller's is short. SEC's is not.

I've not read through the SEC's main doc or downloaded its many exhibits (may do that when I have more time later this week).

SEC-128-2023.11.15.pdfSEC-128-2023.11.15.pdfSEC-130-2023.11.15.pdfSEC-130-2023.11.15.pdf
#33307 6 months ago

Joint pretrial order is also online

#33308 6 months ago

Attachments of Doc130, learned the hard way that you should not use the multidocument feature since the RECAP extension does not catch that.

show_temp.pdfshow_temp.pdf
#33309 6 months ago

Reading through these you really get the sense that Mueller has no defense and is just clinging to hope that the judge will exclude everything damning to his defense. His legal team objects to everything in the hopes to preserve for appeal, but there's nothing defensible. Even attempting to stipulate that he received an amount of money, but you cant talk about what he did with that amount of money. Dude, take the deal and the L and move on.

#33310 6 months ago
Quoted from sgtski1978:

Dude, take the deal and the L and move on.

That would be the answer if this were a criminal trial. But he is now engaged with a civil court where losing by trial in a case by "preponderance of evidence" is much better than pleading guilty. The feds can then use the guilty plea against him in a federal criminal trial. Criminal trials are based upon "reasonable doubt" which is much harder to establish.

This is a waste of time and money. When he loses he faces a fine that he can't pay if fined, and there's a referral to the DOJ. The SEC could have served its purpose by freezing his access to his business.

Where's the justice for the elderly person who was swindled out of their money? What the hell is the priority of the US Attorney in this district? He's been there nearly a year in this position and hasn't indicted this guy. This defendant would have been convicted already in most districts. I know we're not entitled to a lot of info regarding cases from DOJ, but seriously WTF are they doing in that office?

#33311 6 months ago

Some excerpts from Document 130 (PLAINTIFF’S MOTIONS IN LIMINE AND BRIEF IN SUPPORT)

Screenshot 2023-11-16 at 11.36.00?PM (resized).pngScreenshot 2023-11-16 at 11.36.00?PM (resized).pngScreenshot 2023-11-16 at 11.36.43?PM (resized).pngScreenshot 2023-11-16 at 11.36.43?PM (resized).pngScreenshot 2023-11-16 at 11.37.27?PM (resized).pngScreenshot 2023-11-16 at 11.37.27?PM (resized).pngScreenshot 2023-11-16 at 11.38.12?PM (resized).pngScreenshot 2023-11-16 at 11.38.12?PM (resized).pngScreenshot 2023-11-16 at 11.39.13?PM (resized).pngScreenshot 2023-11-16 at 11.39.13?PM (resized).pngScreenshot 2023-11-16 at 11.39.47?PM (resized).pngScreenshot 2023-11-16 at 11.39.47?PM (resized).pngScreenshot 2023-11-16 at 11.44.42?PM (resized).pngScreenshot 2023-11-16 at 11.44.42?PM (resized).pngScreenshot 2023-11-16 at 11.46.59?PM (resized).pngScreenshot 2023-11-16 at 11.46.59?PM (resized).pngScreenshot 2023-11-16 at 11.47.38?PM (resized).pngScreenshot 2023-11-16 at 11.47.38?PM (resized).png
#33312 6 months ago
SEC-129-6-2023.11.15.pdfSEC-129-6-2023.11.15.pdf
#33313 6 months ago

So, Mueller's jury instructions are basically... ignore the law, what Bob wanted to felt right and his heart was in the right place, so it's all good.

#33314 6 months ago

This stuff is pretty interesting. Reading through it, you can see exactly what the trial is going to look like. Here are the jury instructions that both parties have agreed to and these will be read out at different points in the trial.

gov.uscourts.txwd.1144501.129.4.pdfgov.uscourts.txwd.1144501.129.4.pdf

I really recommend reading through the jury instruction - it's written in a conversational way and it is the exact text that will be presented to the jury. The details of the charges start at page 21 and run for 14 pages. If you were on the jury you would need to read and understand these instructions and then rule on them!

The exact wording of each charge / law that he is alleged to have violated differs, but if I had to pick one good example it would be this: pasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).png

Anyway, the SEC is also proposing additional jury instructions - namely that DR had a ponzi scheme aspect. The defense has objected to these instructions: pasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).png

My understanding is that before the trial starts, the parties will confer with the judge and the judge will determine if these jury instructions can be given or not. It seems like inclusion/exclusion of these jury instructions is a way to setup an appeal. That is, if the jury finds RM guilty and the instructions that he acted in good faith & relied on the counsel of professionals were not given, it could be a basis for appeal.

From previous filings, the SEC is claiming the good faith defense does not apply here because:

Mueller’s failure to disclose the above facts to CPM precludes any reliance on any advice he allegedly received. See SEC v. Huff, 758 F. Supp. 2d 1288, 1351 (S.D. Fla. 2010) aff’d, 455 F. App’x 882 (11th Cir. 2012) (Defendants could not rely on advice of counsel as a defense because
they did not disclose all relevant facts); SEC v. Johnson, 174 F. App’x 111, 114-15 (3d Cir. 2006) (finding good faith reliance on the advice of an accountant defense available “only when all pertinent facts are disclosed to the professional”)

Oh and both sides estimate the trial will take TEN DAYS.

That's frustrating because at the end of the day they're (roughly) asking for (a) DR to shut down, (b) RM to no longer be able to do any securities stuff/be an officer a company (probably for a whopping 10 years), (c) fines. Unless there's a criminal trial the outcome of the trial is that he'll be doomed to being a mid-tier lawyer at some company. Whoo.

#33315 6 months ago

Handful of mentions regarding criminal investigation from recent exhibit filings. First three are from a Mueller deposition.

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#33316 6 months ago

IMG_4925 (resized).pngIMG_4925 (resized).png

181131241038.pdf181131241038.pdf

#33317 6 months ago

It's a shame Federal courts are not televised. This would be interesting to watch.

#33318 6 months ago

When I read the documents, I was immediately struck by the contrast between the two sides as it pertained to the use of precedent to support their position. One cited multiple, 'spot-on', precedents; the other.... not so much.

#33319 6 months ago

10 days of trial? How is RM paying for this? Is he still pulling money from deep root accounts? The costs on the defendants side (both sides really) must be astronomical.

#33320 6 months ago
Quoted from cliff_clavin:

10 days of trial? How is RM paying for this? Is he still pulling money from deep root accounts? The costs on the defendants side (both sides really) must be astronomical.

I question why a jury trial is even necessary. What could Muller's defense strategy even possibly be at this point?

#33321 6 months ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

I question why a jury trial is even necessary. What could Muller's defense strategy even possibly be at this point?

At this point, about all he hasn't tried is the Chewbacca Defense:

0330chewbacca (resized).jpg0330chewbacca (resized).jpg
#33322 6 months ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

I question why a jury trial is even necessary. What could Muller's defense strategy even possibly be at this point?

He would have zero chance with just a judge. But he figures with a jury he might be able to bull shit enough to make himself a victim of government over reach

#33323 6 months ago

If the judge grants the SECs motions in limine, then Roberts defense has quite the uphill battle. The SEC wants anything to do with pinball or whatever to be prohibited so the focus is only on the fraud (rightfully so). There goes the Scooby Doo defense.

#33324 6 months ago
Quoted from cliff_clavin:

10 days of trial? How is RM paying for this? Is he still pulling money from deep root accounts? The costs on the defendants side (both sides really) must be astronomical.

Anyone from that industry want to take a ballpark guess what the cost to defend yourself at 10 days of trial is?

#33325 6 months ago

My current lawyer is $300 a hour and that is on the low end, the more experienced attorneys and my lawyers office are 500 a hour. So I'm sure its going to be a lot!

#33326 6 months ago

That's per lawyer on the team, plus their paralegal, plus filing fees, plus court reporter fees for depositions, plus reimbursable expenses. All of that adding up since day 1 through now plus however long the trial lasts. Bobby isn't going to be seeing much money his way for some time. Especially if he goes to appeals. I'm basing the above based on my experience hiring architects and engineers. The fee structures are similar; everyone has an hourly rate, and everything has a price.

#33327 6 months ago

I've posted four or five reimbursement filings for the trustee's attorneys. Those might provide some useful info for ballparking.

#33328 6 months ago

This line is just too good

IMG_0004 (resized).jpegIMG_0004 (resized).jpeg
41
#33329 6 months ago

Still on the wall of my upstairs office

PXL_20231103_171946600 (resized).jpgPXL_20231103_171946600 (resized).jpg
#33330 6 months ago
Quoted from benheck:

Still on the wall of my upstairs office
[quoted image]

Nice. Wasted this milestone post number just like every other opportunity.

IMG_7448 (resized).jpegIMG_7448 (resized).jpeg
15
#33331 6 months ago
Quoted from benheck:

Still on the wall of my upstairs office
[quoted image]

Hopefully soon, you will be able to tell him not to give legal advice without a license.

#33332 5 months ago

Defendant response to motions + a handful of highlights

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132.pdf132.pdf

132-1.pdf132-1.pdf132-2.pdf132-2.pdf132-3.pdf132-3.pdf
15
#33333 5 months ago

"It's all the SEC's fault. If they hadn't announced that we were running a Ponzi scheme, then our Ponzi scheme wouldn't have fallen apart so fast..."

#33334 5 months ago

I'm surprised he's not blaming the UL company in his complaint holding up his dozens of preorders

Also it's depressing this still has not advance in the slightest. The fuck is wrong with the system where a guy who blatantly steals millions is waddling around looking for wife number four.

11
#33335 5 months ago
Quoted from TreyBo69:

I'm surprised he's not blaming the UL company in his complaint
Also it's depressing this still has not advance in the slightest. The fuck is wrong with the system where a guy who blatantly steals millions is waddling around looking for wife number four.

I've been saying for years it's slap on the wrist for this douchebag and you guys refuse to believe me.

The US takes care of these guys. They are the straw that stirs the drink and we worship rich con men in this country.

Robert should probably run for President.

#33336 5 months ago

If I were the SEC, I'm not sure I would fight too hard to stop RM from testifying as an expert witness on the Pinball manufacturing business.
"So how many years have you been involved with manufacturing pinball machines?"
"I started the company in 2016 and the SEC shut us down in 2021, so five years"
"Any other experience with pinball manufacturing"
"Well I spoke with Stern, Spooky and JJP about the business"
"OK, so those are other pinball companies?"
"Yes"
"And do they manufacture pinball machines?"
"Yes"
"About how many do they make...in a year"?
"I'd say one to four"
"And how many did you make in five years"?
"We had lots of titles?"
"OK, but how many were finished and ready to ship?"
"Lots and lots of titles!"
"So, I take it none."
"We had ones with Zombies and Amusement Parks and the Goonies and Who and..."

"And when you spoke to other pinball companies, did they share their financial models, BOM, etc. with you?"
"Well not really, but..."
"So did you have a detailed budget and financial plans for your company?"
"We had sophisticated budget modeling software that we used"
"So an ERP system like SAP to control budget, inventory, production, etc.?"
"Well, not exactly"
"So what did you use?"
"Quickbooks."
"Quickbooks?"
"but it was the deluxe addition! Oh and did I mention we had lots of titles?...lots and lots of titles...lots and lots of purple too"

#33337 5 months ago

In a way... this trial may turn out to be even more interesting if the topic of pinball business viability comes up. In my head the conversation goes like this.

SEC vs. an imaginary defendant:

Q: "The investment plan said you may take some of the funds and invest them into other business, correct?"

A: "Correct."

Q: "What kind of businesses?"

A: "Pinball, car washes, metal mining in africa, sports, entertainment, etc."

Q: "As a fiduciary you have to act in your client's best interest. This means doing due diligence before investing their funds. How much experience do you have in the pinball business?"

A: "Well, after my divorce I was living in my dad's house and the living room was looking a little bare, so I bought a couple of pinball machines to spruce up the space. I gave the old flippers a flippy-flappy from time to time. Got 1M points on medieval madness!"

Q: "That's a non answer. Have you ever worked in the pinball industry or any related industry?"

A: "I tried buying out spooky pinball, but they didn't want anything to do with me."

Q: "That still doesn't answer the question. Were you ever an employee or an officer of a company related to pinball or any related industry?"

A: "... no."

Q: "Have you ever worked in any manufacturing industry?"

A: "... no."

Q: "In 2017 you started hiring people for deeproot pinball. Did any of these people have experience in the pinball industry?"

A: "Yes! I hired JPop!"

Q: "JPop. John Popadiuk? The man who's taken in a million dollars in pre-orders and failed to produce most of the promised machines? The guy who declared bankruptcy? The guy who was sued by his customers, but found to be not liable because being a bad businessman is not a crime?"

A: "... that one."

Q: "Let me rephrase. When you started hiring people for deeproot pinball, did any of those hires have any experience running a successful pinball business?"

A: "... no."

Q: "When you decided to invest millions of dollars into developing a pinball machine, did you do any sort of market analysis?"

A: "Yes, we were going to produce thousands of machines per year! We would release four new themes at the same! Pinbar! Pinbod! RAZA!"

Q: "... I see. So you didn't actually do any market analysis to see if there were buyers for any of the products you're offering."

A: "I took a poll of the office. 1 of 1 employees asked thought it was a good idea."

Q: "Would you say you violated your duties is a fiduciary then? The people you hired knew nothing about running a successful business, your market analysis consisted of you licking your finger and sticking it into the air to gauge interest, and you yourself - acting as the director of the company - made poor decisions repeatedly?"

#33338 5 months ago
Quoted from Oldgoat:

If I were the SEC, I'm not sure I would fight too hard to stop RM from testifying as an expert witness on the Pinball manufacturing business.
"So how many years have you been involved with manufacturing pinball machines?"
"I started the company in 2016 and the SEC shut us down in 2021, so five years"
"Any other experience with pinball manufacturing"
....
"

DAMNIT!! I was typing up an imaginary SEC interrogation at the same time

#33339 5 months ago

I still don't understand what Robert was actually trying to accomplish with his pinball endeavor.

He obviously spent a lot of money to "try" to make some pinball machines. A lot of that money (all?) came from the money he was pulling out of the deeproot funds. He had to know that this was not a good financial plan. At best, pinball was going to cost him a lot of money before it would actually be profitable (if ever).

Did he really believe that he'd be making so much profit from pinball that he'd be able to pay back the deeproot funds (with interest)?
And if not, then why bother with pinball at all? If you're going to be a crook, just take the money and run.

Did he think that having a pinball "business" would give him some sort of legal cover for his Ponzi scheme?
Or was pinball just an ego thing to spend his stolen money on (like buying a Ferrari or something)?

#33340 5 months ago
Quoted from mbeardsley:

I still don't understand what Robert was actually trying to accomplish with his pinball endeavor.
He obviously spent a lot of money to "try" to make some pinball machines. A lot of that money (all?) came from the money he was pulling out of the deeproot funds. He had to know that this was not a good financial plan. At best, pinball was going to cost him a lot of money before it would actually be profitable (if ever).
Did he really believe that he'd be making so much profit from pinball that he'd be able to pay back the deeproot funds (with interest)?
And if not, then why bother with pinball at all? If you're going to be a crook, just take the money and run.
Did he think that having a pinball "business" would give him some sort of legal cover for his Ponzi scheme?
Or was pinball just an ego thing to spend his stolen money on (like buying a Ferrari or something)?

He bought a bunch of pins, liked the hobby and from what I gather wanted specific themed pins.. what better way to make that dream come true than start a pinball company? Also I'm sure he saw how beloved jersey jack and Roger Sharpe were so being admired was just another bonus to fill up his ego.

Pinball is not a place to make a good living (both as a designer and an owner). No designer is getting paid what they deserve (not even including all the overtime)

#33341 5 months ago
Quoted from toyotaboy:

He bought a bunch of pins, liked the hobby and from what I gather wanted specific themed pins.. what better way to make that dream come true than start a pinball company?

So, he looked around and said "Wow, a pinball machine with a Food Truck theme is what I really want..."

#33342 5 months ago

He could not possibly have done enough due diligence to understand that the costs of developing and manufacturing a pinball machine far exceed any hope of profit unless you're doing it at scale. And he didn't have scale. He didn't have a manufacturing base, he didn't have staff, he didn't have a supply chain. I mean, let him get on the stand and talk 'expertly' about pinball. What could possibly go wrong?

#33343 5 months ago
Quoted from mbeardsley:

So, he looked around and said "Wow, a pinball machine with a Food Truck theme is what I really want..."

That was Barry'e game.. but also have you seen how many food trucks are in San Antonio? Robert's next move was probably (a pinball for every food truck). That or Robert just really liked to eat

#33344 5 months ago
Quoted from Oldgoat:

If I were the SEC, I'm not sure I would fight too hard to stop RM from testifying as an expert witness on the Pinball manufacturing business.
"So how many years have you been involved with manufacturing pinball machines?"
"I started the company in 2016 and the SEC shut us down in 2021, so five years"
"Any other experience with pinball manufacturing"
"Well I spoke with Stern, Spooky and JJP about the business"
"OK, so those are other pinball companies?"
"Yes"
"And do they manufacture pinball machines?"
"Yes"
"About how many do they make...in a year"?
"I'd say one to four"
"And how many did you make in five years"?
"We had lots of titles?"
"OK, but how many were finished and ready to ship?"
"Lots and lots of titles!"
"So, I take it none."
"We had ones with Zombies and Amusement Parks and the Goonies and Who and..."
"And when you spoke to other pinball companies, did they share their financial models, BOM, etc. with you?"
"Well not really, but..."
"So did you have a detailed budget and financial plans for your company?"
"We had sophisticated budget modeling software that we used"
"So an ERP system like SAP to control budget, inventory, production, etc.?"
"Well, not exactly"
"So what did you use?"
"Quickbooks."
"Quickbooks?"
"but it was the deluxe addition! Oh and did I mention we had lots of titles?...lots and lots of titles...lots and lots of purple too"

Mueller stated publicly that he actually used Quickbooks to run his "investment" firm.

See post 28580 for context

#33345 5 months ago
Quoted from SantaEatsCheese:

Mueller stated publicly that he actually used Quickbooks to run his "investment" firm.
See post 28580 for context

Correct. BOM planning was done in a big google sheet.

#33346 5 months ago

Courtlistener shows that an order on the motion in limine has been filed. But there is no associated document. Occasionally, triggering the right thing in PACER populates the CL page with info that lives outside a filed document. But I forget where/how to trigger that. Can a PACER expert try to look whatever up to see if there are any details regarding the contents of the order?

https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/60223430/securities-and-exchange-commission-v-mueller/?order_by=desc

#33347 5 months ago
Quoted from mbeardsley:I still don't understand what Robert was actually trying to accomplish with his pinball endeavor.
He obviously spent a lot of money to "try" to make some pinball machines. A lot of that money (all?) came from the money he was pulling out of the deeproot funds. He had to know that this was not a good financial plan. At best, pinball was going to cost him a lot of money before it would actually be profitable (if ever).
Did he really believe that he'd be making so much profit from pinball that he'd be able to pay back the deeproot funds (with interest)?
And if not, then why bother with pinball at all? If you're going to be a crook, just take the money and run.
Did he think that having a pinball "business" would give him some sort of legal cover for his Ponzi scheme?
Or was pinball just an ego thing to spend his stolen money on (like buying a Ferrari or something)?

I genuinely believe that he genuinely believed "Pinball is easy" which also likely encouraged him to rob peter to pay paul.

#33348 5 months ago

I don’t see how the sec cares about the pinball business. Robert could have invested the money in blow-up dolls and that would have been totally fine if he:
Said that’s what he was investing in
Paid himself using paychecks and not using the fund to buy private school tuition.

#33349 5 months ago
Quoted from CLEllison:

I genuinely believe that he genuinely believed "Pinball is easy" which also likely encouraged him to rob peter to pay paul.

There's a bunch of questions to this effect in deposition testimony. The responses I've seen from others is that every suggestion to them indicated Robert genuinely believed he would make lots of money in pinball.

#33350 5 months ago
Quoted from Richthofen:

I don’t see how the sec cares about the pinball business. Robert could have invested the money in blow-up dolls and that would have been totally fine if he:
Said that’s what he was investing in
Paid himself using paychecks and not using the fund to buy private school tuition.

This is also the SEC's take: it doesn't matter if he was legitimately trying to make pinball machines or not. They contend he was using funds illegitimately.

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