Quoted from Mr68:I've always thought that Charles Ponzi got a bad rap.
At least he has something named after him 
(Topic ID: 203700)
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This comes down to a very simple and easy to understand pinball term- “GREED!!!” And it is also one that that subconsciously undoes us without us even knowing it. “If one is good, then two is better” is built into us at the very base of our brain stem. We can not be satisfied with “just enough” because life proves when you think like this, this is when your guard goes down and you end up with not enough because, well, you should have been greedy and took one more than you needed, just to make sure. Even when we have more than 10 times more than we need, we will still try and get more. Why does Warren Buffet need any more money? Jeff Bezos? Elon Musk? Bill Gates? Even I wonder why I strive for more when I have more than plenty, hell, I own 9 big boxes of technology that were built with the only intent in mind was using them to get people to pay you to waste their time. Now that there is an industry that everyone wants in on. Right?
Quoted from benheck:Robert was absolutely a sociopath. He has crazy eyes. Never trust crazy eyes (see also Elizabeth Holmes)
As for Ponzi scheme? Well, if you wanna lose a lot of money to hide what you keep, and do it using pinball, can't think of a better hire than Jpop!
Well we already know he had his ponzi setup before he went shopping for pinball companies... after all, it's how he had his pot of money to go shopping 
He legit thought he was going to use pinball as a way to keep the scheme going, along with his other perks. He was a dumb investor first, then the 2019 references prove his was even a dumber business man, and it all show shows he was a liar through and through.
It can be shorted to
Phase 1: Guy gets rich by con'ing people to investing in an investment ponzi
Phase 2: Uses the pot of money to fund his personal lifestyle
Phase 3: Stupidly thinks he can direct a new pinball company to riches to sustain his earlier steps
Phase 4: Crash and burn as his ineptitude as a business man causes his business choices to bring the house of cards down
This entire saga is going to end with Robert getting hauled out of bed like Jerry Lundegaard at the end of Fargo.
Quoted from Mr68:I've always thought that Charles Ponzi got a bad rap.
The more I hear about this Charles Ponzi fellow, the more I don't care for him!
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:Downloaded another one of the other complaints. This one targets Robert. Way more details in the doc than I've excerpted. Presume this means we can expect some interesting hearings to be forthcoming.
Note in the email exhibit: literally praying for a retiree's death to keep the ponzi plates spinning.
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Interesting documents. Pretty sure they meant "voided" as opposed to "avoided" in paragraph #4, though.
I'd love to hear what wife #2 has to say about all of this. Isn't that the one he traded in for "growing with the company" too much?
Quoted from mbeardsley:Yeah, I didn't understand the people who passed on the refund at that point. They should have taken the refund, and used that money to just buy a RAZA later (if they ever actually got built).
Did anyone really think (at that point) that RAZA was going to sell so well that by losing their place "in line" that they'd be locked out of being able to buy one?
Or that RAZA was going to be so great that they'd be upset that they "missed out"?
I had hoped that deeproot would be successful, but I certainly wasn't willing to bet my money on it...
Robert offered a complete RAZA game to me for my $4000 and change Zidware deposit. Seemed like a decent gamble since I had written off the money as lost years earlier. I figured even if I just got a box of lights I'd be ahead of the game. So to speak. Like many gambles, this one was unfortunately a losing one.
Quoted from Haymaker:The more I hear about this Charles Ponzi fellow, the more I don't care for him!
Just saw that Norm vid a day ago!
Quoted from flynnibus:Well we already know he had his ponzi setup before he went shopping for pinball companies... after all, it's how he had his pot of money to go shopping
He legit thought he was going to use pinball as a way to keep the scheme going, along with his other perks. He was a dumb investor first, then the 2019 references prove his was even a dumber business man, and it all show shows he was a liar through and through.
It can be shorted to
Phase 1: Guy gets rich by con'ing people to investing in an investment ponzi
Phase 2: Uses the pot of money to fund his personal lifestyle
Phase 3: Stupidly thinks he can direct a new pinball company to riches to sustain his earlier steps
Phase 4: Crash and burn as his ineptitude as a business man causes his business choices to bring the house of cards down
I guess it's a wild ride until the sudden stop at the end. That dude will NOT do well in prison AT ALL.
Quoted from jamesmc:I wouldn't want to be Tom, Nate, Scott or the attorney.
These complaints read like an indictment. I like this trustee guy. A lazy asst US Attorney can cut and paste onto an indictment.
I'm sure we will be reading more ridiculous emails describing past, present, and future crimes.
Nate sure keeps coming up.
Vantaa
Quoted from ViperVS:These trials can take a while so...
Does anyone have an educated guess of the probable outcome?
Check back when thread count is fire!
Quoted from ViperVS:These trials can take a while so...
Does anyone have an educated guess of the probable outcome?
Probable to very likely-SEC refers a criminal case to the justice dept. Mr Blue has already shown us where the local US Attorney's office is already involved. Probable fines. This will eventually lead to a criminal indictment. What's happening right now is the government is trying to contain the problem as best they can. More administrative at this point than anything. The criminal indictment will then come from the justice dept.
I would guess that a complicated indictment with multiple co defendants could take as long as 18 to 24 months from time of indictment. Less defendants means less motions which reduces time. Every defendant would be granted extensions and such. It can take awhile. But these SEC attorneys as well as this trustee have laid the groundwork for his future indictment.
I would think if he's indicted alone it would still take a year from there. I don't think he will be indicted alone. There appears to be a mountain of evidence of his criminality. The feds have a usual prosecution rate around 96% plus. Against many defendants who have less evidence against them than this guy. What do you think? I think he's going to prison for more than 10 years.
Mr Blue will most likely be able to pull up a federal worksheet so we can better calculate what he's really facing once we've seen the indictment. We can easily calculate his base score. And then go thru the worksheet where you add to the base score for things like whether elderly people were affected. Yes add 2. Was his a managerial role. Yes add 2. You add the score up and it comes to a level. The level will have a recommendation of something like 110 to 130 months. If defendants plead guilty they are afforded a 2 level downward departure from that level. A 2 level downward departure along with a recommendation of the lower level of that guideline can then put him at say 90 to 108 months. So in this example it's a 90 months recommendation and the judge then decides final amount as well as names whether it's 3 to 5 years of supervised release thru federal probation.
Most defendants start out fighting as best they can to keep their scores and base levels as low as possible. At some point logic takes over for most when you realize they will convict you and 2 levels down can save a few years. Hence the 96% plus conviction rate.
This overnight indictment of Sam Bankman-Fried was as fast an indictment from the justice dept as I can ever recall for financial crimes. The company just declared bankruptcy in November and an indictment in December is amazing.
Justice dept probably felt he was an extreme flight risk from the Bahamas and unsealed an indictment. This indictment will likely be superceded many times as defendants are added. Increasing the time. Many of us will be following this development and will notice some of the same tactics that are being used against Robert. Except this is so pressing they are in warp speed for the justice dept.
Quoted from ufotofu:This entire saga is going to end with Robert getting hauled out of bed like Jerry Lundegaard at the end of Fargo.
Spoiler Alert!
Quoted from jamesmc:This overnight indictment of Sam Bankman-Fried was as fast an indictment from the justice dept as I can ever recall for financial crimes. The company just declared bankruptcy in November and an indictment in December is amazing.
Justice dept probably felt he was an extreme flight risk from the Bahamas and unsealed an indictment. This indictment will likely be superceded many times as defendants are added. Increasing the time. Many of us will be following this development and will notice some of the same tactics that are being used against Robert. Except this is so pressing they are in warp speed for the justice dept.
They have to get rid of that guy before anyone finds out how deep the scandal goes.
Quoted from jamesmc:This overnight indictment of Sam Bankman-Fried was as fast an indictment from the justice dept as I can ever recall for financial crimes. The company just declared bankruptcy in November and an indictment in December is amazing.
Justice dept probably felt he was an extreme flight risk from the Bahamas and unsealed an indictment. This indictment will likely be superceded many times as defendants are added. Increasing the time. Many of us will be following this development and will notice some of the same tactics that are being used against Robert. Except this is so pressing they are in warp speed for the justice dept.
Word on the street is that employees of FTX and Alameda Research have been working with the feds for leniency. Bit of advice for anyone who is in a criminal enterprise: cooperating first gets you the best benefits. If you wait until the indictments start dropping, you'll be at risk of only providing redundant information they already know about.
Quoted from benheck:They have to get rid of that guy before anyone finds out how deep the scandal goes.
The wild thing about crypto (which I have maintained has zero economic value since back when bitcoin was $100) is that every single transaction is on an immutable ledger. So I mean, the scandal is literally published for anyone to see. Sure, you have to deanonymize the addresses, but, its actually incredibly hard to hide crimes in crypto. The real scandal is that we've had zero interest rates since 2008 and its led to incredible malinvestment; so much so that hedge funds, investors, and other wall st types would through billions of dollars at a 20-something and not even request a seat on the board of directors of the company.
Blobert's bookkeeping via Quickbooks seems pale in comparison to this lol!
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/ftx-ceos-bewilderment-company-used-183433287.html
Quoted from PocketHoleshot:Blobert's bookkeeping via Quickbooks seems pale in comparison to this lol!
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/ftx-ceos-bewilderment-company-used-183433287.html
The books are the whole reason the much needed Hail Mary from Binance didnt go through. Binance saw the mess and stepped back...
Quoted from Richthofen:Bit of advice for anyone who is in a criminal enterprise: cooperating first gets you the best benefits. If you wait until the indictments start dropping, you'll be at risk of only providing redundant information they already know about
My advice: 1. Have an attorney you trust go to local federal public defendants office and ask for lists of attorneys who win trials there. Compare lists and hire one of the top guys. These guys deal with the US Attorney's all the time and seem to have an advantage over others.
2. Wait while everyone else sign cooperating 5K1 deals. If or when you become the last co defendant the US Attorney will become far more amenable to making a deal as it costs alot to prosecute 1 person.
3. Most guys I know who held their own say the same as me. Pre-trial was way worse for anxiety than prison. Because you don't know the outcome, and you should accept the worse. Makes it easier on the brain, and almost always a winner unless your co defendants are as stubborn and stand up as you are. If you end up getting the max, your still not a rat when you go to prison. Your not a rat when you get out. And can look at yourself in the mirror knowing you didn't contribute to anyone else's suffering because of your selfishness. "Don't Do The Damn Crime If You Can't Do The Time".
Quoted from Richthofen:Bit of advice for anyone who is in a criminal enterprise: cooperating first gets you the best benefits. If you wait until the indictments start dropping, you'll be at risk of only providing redundant information they already know about.
Quoted from jamesmc:My advice:
2. Wait while everyone else sign cooperating 5K1 deals. If or when you become the last co defendant the US Attorney will become far more amenable to making a deal as it costs alot to prosecute 1 person.
No I don't know what to do.
Quoted from jamesmc:My advice:
Don't do the criming.
Quoted from RCA1:Don't do the criming.
Dont steal 60 million and then start a pinball co.
Just steal 60 million.
Quoted from Roostking:Just steal 60 million . . .
. . . and then immediately flee to a country that doesn't extradite.
Quoted from Roostking:Dont steal 60 million and then start a pinball co.
Just steal 60 million.
But not from old people. There are many scams this fraudster could have pulled off without harming mom and dad in retirement. I always had trouble listening to white collar criminals bitch and moan about their fate. I got used to earplugs.
Quoted from Roostking:Dont steal 60 million and then start a pinball co.
Just steal 60 million.
Imagine how many "nail salons" you could open with that much dough!
Quoted from jamesmc:But not from old people. There are many scams this fraudster could have pulled off without harming mom and dad in retirement.
Or maybe it was the whole point to go after older folks with them being more vulnerable and less likely to be around later to go after him.
Quoted from ForceFlow:Or maybe it was the whole point to go after older folks with them being more vulnerable and less likely to be around later to go after him.
He was buying their life insurance policies. The whole business model was built around them dying sooner than later.
Quoted from TreyBo69:He was buying their life insurance policies. The whole business model was built around them dying sooner than later.
And if they have a heart-attack from learning that their retirement plans are destroyed, so much the better!
Quoted from ForceFlow:Or maybe it was the whole point to go after older folks with them being more vulnerable and less likely to be around later to go after him.
We will read the highlights of his "criming" in the indictment(s). The feds will spell out the time-line. The feds usually get most of right in the beginning of the process. But not always.
People's actual roles become more defined as people talk. The feds will be interviewing many people. This is what I meant when I said I wouldn't want to be Nate or the others in the email. They may not be targets, but they most likely will be interviewed. And charged later if they lie. Or if they implicate themselves.
It's gonna be an interesting read.
Quoted from TreyBo69:He was buying their life insurance policies. The whole business model was built around them dying sooner than later.
That was the "cover".
The real business was convincing people to give him money, which he promised to invest by buying life insurance policies, but in fact used for a badly pinball run pinball business and personal expenses.
The problem is that he wasn't buying life insurance policies like he claimed he would.
Quoted from RCA1:That was the "cover".
The real business was convincing people to give him money, which he promised to invest by buying life insurance policies, but in fact used for a badly pinball run pinball business and personal expenses.
The problem is that he wasn't buying life insurance policies like he claimed he would.
He was innovating!!
Quoted from ForceFlow:Or maybe it was the whole point to go after older folks with them being more vulnerable and less likely to be around later to go after him.
"Ma'am I need to go buy 2000 dollars of the Google play cards"
2 weeks later
Happy New Year. Bankruptcy court is back in session and Judge Parker approved trustee compromise and settlement measures, including the one with the SEC.
It's been long enough that I forget what these were about and don't have the time right now to check.
deeprootcapital-231-2023.01.03.pdfdeeprootcapital-232-2023.01.03.pdf 1 week later
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:That's a wrap. SEC case against all the deeprooty companies has been settled.
[quoted image]
Reading the order, I was waiting for:
"It is further ordered, adjudged and decreed that the word 'pinbar' shall never again be uttered."
Quoted from pudealee:So, any idea what's next on the criminal side?
No idea. But the one part of the SEC that is not wrapped is them vs. Robert.
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:No idea. But the one part of the SEC that is not wrapped is them vs. Robert.
I get the feeling the SEC was wasting resources on the companies so they settled their ends and now can focus on the proprietor.
Quoted from sgtski1978:I get the feeling the SEC was wasting resources on the companies so they settled their ends and now can focus on the proprietor.
Once the trustee took over the businesses, incentive on both sides to settle.
Only Robert the big cheese stands alone.
Just watched the Madoff documentary on Netflix
Got to say that nothing is assured - need to keep monitoring and hopefully justice will prevail but the SEC has fumbled many times before
Can he just go to jail and have the pinball world be done with him?
I guess Ben doesn’t have to worry about his threat of lawsuits anymore.
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:Look who filed an objection to the settlement between the SEC and the deeproot etc companies.
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Written like a narcissist.
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:Look who filed an objection to the settlement between the SEC and the deeproot etc companies.
[quoted image]
Seems like a decently written motion. What's appalling to me is that the people he stole from are the ones in reality paying his attorney to write the motion. It seems like a hail mary type of motion, but it's probably serving its purpose by extending time.
Quoted from hank527:Can he just go to jail and have the pinball world be done with him?
I guess Ben doesn’t have to worry about his threat of lawsuits anymore.
I can finally make Bible Adventures!
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