(Topic ID: 203700)

deeproot Pinball thread

By pin2d

6 years ago


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#32301 1 year ago

Guys stop ganging up on poor Robert.

He was trying to build pinball machines!!! Therefore it COULDN’T be a Ponzi and clearly he had good intentions.

Did Bernie Madoff ever try to build pinball machines? How about Charles Ponzi?

Zero pinball intentions detected. Therefore, clearly Ponzis.

Robert? Not so much; he had pinball prototypes and even a malfunctioning PinBar. Shades of gray there. Shit happened though and it just didn’t work out.

#32302 1 year ago

Even if you don't believe this was a ponzi scheme "paying early investors with new investor money", the fact that he didn't do what was written in the policy "use funds to invest in life insurance policies" is illegal.

Imagine you put extra money in your checking account, and one day your ATM says "zero funds", and you're like "WTF? Did someone hack my account?", so you go into the bank and the bank owner goes "Welp I invested in crypto currency and FTX folded so your money is gone, oh well". that doesn't fly.

11
#32303 1 year ago

Per the trustee's complaint, Robert is alleged to have started ponziing years prior to the pinball ventures. If that is correct, then the notion he was only ponziiing with the best of intentions to make it big in pinball to pay the promised returns to investors doesn't hold water.

#32304 1 year ago

I would think that Robert's attorneys explained to him the SEC can fine and recommend prosecution by the justice dept.

The justice dept can/will prosecute and imprison him. AND fine him up to 4 million per charge. Doesn't take a genius to figure that every day fighting the SEC is a walk in the park compared to what's waiting for him from the US Attorney's office of the justice dept.

He's broken federal law. This trustee is sugar coating it compared to how the future indictment from the justice dept. will read.

#32305 1 year ago
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:

Robert is alleged to have started ponziing years prior to the pinball ventures

I have to say that I love the word "Ponziing", which I think Blueberry just invented.

And it doesn't matter WHY Robert decieved his investors and lost their money, he decieved his investors and lost their money.

#32306 1 year ago
Quoted from RCA1:

I have to say that I love the word "Ponziing", which I think Blueberry just invented.
And it doesn't matter WHY Robert decieved his investors and lost their money, he decieved his investors and lost their money.

I think so many people are willing to buy into the "But he didn't MEAN to ponzi" gambit because in this case, for once, the primary target of a pinball scam wasn't us, the pinball community.

I mean, yeah, it was a scam, but "he isn't asking us for money." Until he did, at the 11th hour. And even then, the scam unraveled completely before too many pinball people were scammed out of their money, and even then part 2, many folks were able to claw back their stolen money via their credit cards.

So it doesn't really hit home the way your standard Jpop/Predator-style pinball scam did, where everybody affected was a pinball person who had their money stolen and received nothing in return. I think for many folks, Deep Root just comes off as some allegedly rich douchebag's comical folly, and not as some wholesale attempt to steal money from the pinball community.

That's the best I can figure it: "Yeah, he was a crook, and he stole $60 million from old ladies, but he was doing it for US! He just wanted to bring us the most innovative innovations in the history of pinball innovations and he almost pulled it off. It just didn't work out!"

#32307 1 year ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

He just wanted to bring us the most innovative innovations in the history of pinball innovations and he almost pulled it off. It just didn't work out!"

RIP Pinbar & Pinpod

#32308 1 year ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

It just didn't work out!"

Way to totally undersell it Levi. I’m sure there are a bunch of old ladies with that exact same attitude.

#32309 1 year ago

pasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).png

Don't these firms get audited? This was a ponzi scheme from day 1. How did they operate for almost 10 years?

#32310 1 year ago
Quoted from Mr68:

RIP Pinbar & Pinpod

2 dreams, 1 company. What could have been!

#32311 1 year ago
Quoted from Mr68:

RIP Pinbar & Pinpod

Not necessarily. Those trademarks are now the property of Turner Pinball. Well, if they haven't expired (I know at least PinArmor did).

#32312 1 year ago
Quoted from mbwalker:

[quoted image]
Don't these firms get audited? This was a ponzi scheme from day 1. How did they operate for almost 10 years?

Audited by who and why?

Simple one man LLCs… until the IRS is interested, who is coming to do that?

#32313 1 year ago

Pinsiders said the numbers don’t make sense and preorder holders tried to shout them down… it was comically bad from miles away but the power of the con man compelled them.

#32314 1 year ago
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:

Not necessarily. Those trademarks are now the property of Turner Pinball. Well, if they haven't expired (I know at least PinArmor did).

Chris Turner strikes me as a man that learns from others mistakes.

I guess we will find out.

#32315 1 year ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Audited by who and why?
Simple one man LLCs… until the IRS is interested, who is coming to do that?

So you're saying a midsized investment firm doesn't require a mandatory audit?

I don't know the answer, but given investment fraud in the past, I would be surprised any investment that manages 65M gets a free pass. But just a WAG on my end.

10
#32316 1 year ago

I guess it boils down to "If this was intended as a Ponzi scheme, why did he spend so much money making pinball"

Unless the goal was to spend (lose) most of the money so he could keep (hide) some of it.

Turner Logic also sets off my BS detector. Paid millions to make a website and code one game... then uses said millions to buy back DR assets pennies on the dollar. HMMMMMMM.............

#32317 1 year ago
Quoted from benheck:

I guess it boils down to "If this was intended as a Ponzi scheme, why did he spend so much money making pinball"
..

Ponzi schemers tend to have a wide array of interests. See, here's how it works: the crooked Ponzi scheme allows you to steal money, and you can use that money to buy things that may appear to be "legitimate." Pretty much all career criminals attempt to do this in one way or another.

Charles Ponzi himself (in retrospect, investors should have been suspicious it was a Ponzi scheme) bought a macaroni company, a wine company, and a bank.

Robert Mueller used his Ponzi scheme money to buy a Hawaiian condo, a couple ex-wives, and a pinball company.

Again...it's really unimportant whether or not Mueller actually intended to build pinball machines, just like it's completely unimportant whether or not Charles Ponzi actually had an interest in selling the public Ferrari quality pasta at Kia prices. All of these enterprises were built upon a foundation of theft and fraud and were doomed to failure.

I guess it boils down to it was all a scam and there is no gray area.

#32318 1 year ago
Quoted from mbwalker:

So you're saying a midsized investment firm doesn't require a mandatory audit?

No, it's a lot like your taxes. Meet your requirements, fill out your required filings as needed, and the gov regulator who has the POWER to look at your books won't because they have too much to do and only get involved when things start to smell or someone shines a light on it.

'Firm'? LOL. This is guy selling people on the of an investment fund. Not a big bank - more like a guy who knows a guy These guys are not required to complete independent audits regularly like a publicly traded company. These are guys selling investment contracts under a system designed to be self-regulating... by only allowing the securities to be sold through advisors and people with enough assets to know better. They are legally required to file all these disclosures and filings to make critical baseline info known under threat of legal consequence.

But when you still are a fraud and structure things to hide what you are really doing... and then you keep the facade up long enough to bring in more money... that's how these Ponzis thrive. Facades.

#32319 1 year ago
Quoted from benheck:I guess it boils down to "If this was intended as a Ponzi scheme, why did he spend so much money making pinball"
Unless the goal was to spend (lose) most of the money so he could keep (hide) some of it.
Turner Logic also sets off my BS detector. Paid millions to make a website and code one game... then uses said millions to buy back DR assets pennies on the dollar. HMMMMMMM.............

I’m still anxiously awaiting the next piece to that puzzle…

#32320 1 year ago
Quoted from benheck:

I guess it boils down to "If this was intended as a Ponzi scheme, why did he spend so much money making pinball"

Unless the goal was to spend (lose) most of the money so he could keep (hide) some of it.

People think as long as you can make the outgoing things work... you get to fund what you want to do... it's all good right?

The guy sets up a scheme to fund his lifestyle and make himself a self-declared king. Seems like that was his goal...

Problem was he was just too egotistical to recognize that he'd make a horrible King and he sucked at the job of actually making the money do something. The lifestyle, the finders fees, the horse trading, that's just the juice you thrive on along the way... still seems his endgame was to be the big star - not simply keep the shell game going. That's why he drove it into the ground and took his house of cards with him.. vs pivoting before it got too late.

#32321 1 year ago
Quoted from benheck:

Turner Logic also sets off my BS detector. Paid millions to make a website and code one game... then uses said millions to buy back DR assets pennies on the dollar. HMMMMMMM.............

I've been saying this since day one of all this bankruptcy/liquidation stuff. My previous posts reflect it, too. Something smells with that whole situation.

#32322 1 year ago

It would’ve worked if it wasn’t for those meddling investors

#32323 1 year ago

Downloaded another one of the other complaints. This one targets Robert. Way more details in the doc than I've excerpted. Presume this means we can expect some interesting hearings to be forthcoming.

Note in the email exhibit: literally praying for a retiree's death to keep the ponzi plates spinning.

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#32324 1 year ago
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:

Note in the email exhibit: literally praying for a retiree's death to keep the ponzi plates spinning.

Gross.

#32325 1 year ago

I think they are fairly pissed at Robert.

Imagine his defense. We developed the innovative PinBar(tm), how is that a ruse ya onna!

#32326 1 year ago

Well the good thing is.. it seems we don't have a push-over in the trustees assigned to these cases. They are doing their homework. No JPOP 'just throw out the laundry' scenario here... they are going to pursue RM and arm both the SEC and the DA with all the ammo to take him down criminally.

The other thing is... it seems like "the numbers just don't add up" is a recurring theme in all deeproot businesses. We could tell it just from the limited info we had here about their pinball business... but the highlights there show he did the same gymnastics in his insurance policies management too.

The tone in that email is interesting and enlightening IMO. Using pinball as a recurring stream to help float the lulls in maturities is at least some what of a arguable strategy of "why start a pinball company?". Except... when you look at how pinball operates today (long periods of investment followed by bursts of revenue with high risks of failure -- as opposed to steady reliably income) it seems like a horrible choice for the kind of business to start as 'sustaining' business to float another.

Maybe that's his argument for getting into the carwash and sports stuff too... trying to generate passive revenue to pay his premiums and investors while waiting for people to die.

13
#32327 1 year ago

Pinball is easy.
Robert, 2017

Pinball is a ruse.
SEC, 2022

derproot 1 (resized).pngderproot 1 (resized).png

#32328 1 year ago

it's still jaw dropping Robert for real thought his pinball company wasn't a giant cluster fuck and that no one would notice his book keeping

even as outsiders looking in, it was clearly obvious that the pinball company, if it actually worked, wouldn't generate a profit for at least a decade

#32329 1 year ago
Quoted from Mr68:

Pinball is easy.
Robert, 2017
Pinball is a ruse.
SEC, 2022
[quoted image]

To be fair, the SEC called it a ponzi-like scheme. This is the trustee's assessment. I would not be surprised, however, in the year+ since the SEC's initial complaint filing its opinions have evolved.

#32330 1 year ago
Quoted from TreyBo69:

it's still jaw dropping Robert for real thought his pinball company wasn't a giant cluster fuck

Whats even more jaw dropping is that a decent amount of pinball enthusiasts thought the same thing and even white knighted for said obvious clusterfuck company

#32331 1 year ago
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:

To be fair, the SEC called it a ponzi-like scheme. This is the trustee's assessment. I would not be surprised, however, in the year+ since the SEC's initial complaint filing its opinions have evolved.

Potato, potato.

#32332 1 year ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Well the good thing is.. it seems we don't have a push-over in the trustees assigned to these cases. They are doing their homework. No JPOP 'just throw out the laundry' scenario here... they are going to pursue RM and arm both the SEC and the DA with all the ammo to take him down criminally.
The other thing is... it seems like "the numbers just don't add up" is a recurring theme in all deeproot businesses. We could tell it just from the limited info we had here about their pinball business... but the highlights there show he did the same gymnastics in his insurance policies management too.
The tone in that email is interesting and enlightening IMO. Using pinball as a recurring stream to help float the lulls in maturities is at least some what of a arguable strategy of "why start a pinball company?". Except... when you look at how pinball operates today (long periods of investment followed by bursts of revenue with high risks of failure -- as opposed to steady reliably income) it seems like a horrible choice for the kind of business to start as 'sustaining' business to float another.
Maybe that's his argument for getting into the carwash and sports stuff too... trying to generate passive revenue to pay his premiums and investors while waiting for people to die.

It's a really interesting look into Robert's world. To him, the pin business was not a company-destroying boondoggle; it was the gas to keep the car doing 35 until the old people dying rocket fuel kicked in.

Note the date of that email (to a company he owed money he didn't have): April 5, 2019. I don't keep straight what was happening when publicly with DR. Would be interesting to cross reference the private disclosures from then (I stopped paying everyone. The law unfortunately says I have to start paying them again in May. I've told the engineers to set aside the game-changing innovations so we can launch in August/September 2019) with whatever he was saying and doing publicly (presumably the timeline aligns with one of the scheduled and cancelled launches).

You have to imagine less than a year later covid became the go-to get out of jail free excuse.

#32333 1 year ago

His April 2019 email would have been shortly after they pulled the plug on the five days of deeproot at TPF. Several months later they would show the PinBar-less RAZA at Houston

In the loose timeline I remember, the PinBar wasn't ready so TPF was scrapped. Then they spent several months making a version without the PinBar (for reasons) to show off at Houston for public feedback on how RAZA played. That's when we got the first proper glimpse at a "working" RAZA. That kicked off the ramp-gate saga

#32334 1 year ago
Quoted from Haymaker:

Whats even more jaw dropping is that a decent amount of pinball enthusiasts thought the same thing and even white knighted for said obvious clusterfuck company

And mocked us as losers for disagreeing because they had a guy on the inside who played the games, said they ruled, and that we'd be eating our words once the masterpiece was revealed.

#32335 1 year ago

Which degree of glory does one attain by praying for the deaths of the elderly, so that one's business of stealing money from the elderly can stay afloat? Asking for a friend.

#32336 1 year ago
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:

Downloaded another one of the other complaints. This one targets Robert. Way more details in the doc than I've excerpted. Presume this means we can expect some interesting hearings to be forthcoming.
Note in the email exhibit: literally praying for a retiree's death to keep the ponzi plates spinning.
[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

I’m starting to think that this whole thing was a Ponzi scheme.

#32337 1 year ago
Quoted from Haymaker:

Whats even more jaw dropping is that a decent amount of pinball enthusiasts thought the same thing and even white knighted for said obvious clusterfuck company

What’s even more jaw dropping is that there are STILL people who think he “intended to make pinball machines” and that somehow that makes this not all a scam and a ponzi.

I do not get the hold that these phony “rich” assholes have on people. See it time and time again.

#32338 1 year ago

I wouldn't want to be Tom, Nate, Scott or the attorney.

These complaints read like an indictment. I like this trustee guy. A lazy asst US Attorney can cut and paste onto an indictment.

I'm sure we will be reading more ridiculous emails describing past, present, and future crimes.

#32339 1 year ago
Quoted from jamesmc:

I wouldn't want to be Tom, Nate, Scott or the attorney.
These complaints read like an indictment. I like this trustee guy. A lazy asst US Attorney can cut and paste onto an indictment.
I'm sure we will be reading more ridiculous emails describing past, present, and future crimes.

There are around ten more complaints I've yet to review / post.

44
#32340 1 year ago

I want to thank blueberryjohnson once again for his work in documenting everything for the public record of this thread.

What a wild story, and I've been here since the start. I love that we're getting a better, clearer picture.

#32341 1 year ago
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:

You have to imagine less than a year later covid became the go-to get out of jail free excuse.

And don't forget the Texas snow storm, power loss, as a delay excuse.

But my favorite was when the Suez Canal made international news for getting blocked and shipping was shut down for several days.
Levi jokingly predicted in this thread that Deeproot would use it as their next excuse, And-They-Did.
pasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).png

#32342 1 year ago
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:

It's a really interesting look into Robert's world. To him, the pin business was not a company-destroying boondoggle; it was the gas to keep the car doing 35 until the old people dying rocket fuel kicked in.
.

Yup. Yes, it ended up being a Ponzi scheme. But in Robert's tiny little mind pinball was gonna "make good" and pay back the investors.

Speaking of Spring 2019, let's not forget that was supposed to be the ORIGINAL "5 Days of Deeproot". When it didn't happened he was in deep shit... until COVID saved his ass (how much you wanna bet his PPP money paid off Ponzi investors?) Then a hail-Mary pass with the RAZA reveal in December 2020, whoops it's a major flop, game over.

We all know that such a pinball investment wouldn't return for a good 10 years. But Robert didn't. He's an idiot bully lawyer, who only got into pinball a year before starting the company (the usual rich dude "Give me 15 Sterns for this room")

I'm not trying to be the Devil's advocate. Just saying that Robert's stupidity matched his malice and helped sink him.

#32343 1 year ago
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:

And mocked us as losers for disagreeing because they had a guy on the inside who played the games, said they ruled, and that we'd be eating our words once the masterpiece was revealed.

What is it about pinball that makes some otherwise smart people turn off all critical thinking? It's just a toy...

Quoted from benheck:

Yes, it ended up being a Ponzi scheme.

Seems like the ponzi started well before the pinball part. It was always a ponzi. He had different money making schemes, besides pinball, like mining in Africa.

Even Charles Ponzi didn't start off trying to scam people. He just needed a lot of capital upfront to start his business idea of converting cheap foreign stamps to more valuable American ones. He was going to pay them back because he thought he had a brilliant business idea that everyone else was too stupid to realize, which he found out was infeasible way too late into the process.... A lot of similarities with Robert actually

Though I'm not sure if Robert ever accepted that the pinball division was never going to work out? It seemed like they were operating under their normal circumstances pretty much until the feds showed up. They were still placing order for RAZA parts in summer 2021

#32344 1 year ago

Robert is coming off as even more of a psychopath when you realize that he was a guest on a number of podcasts in late 2019, months after the above email was sent. Remember how cocky he was? Robert was straight up lying in all of them.

#32345 1 year ago
Quoted from TreyBo69:

Seems like the ponzi started well before the pinball part. It was always a ponzi.

Only according to the law in this country.

Last time I checked the worksheet for federal sentencing, there were no downward departures for good intentions. They just call it fraud.

#32346 1 year ago
Quoted from JodyG:

Robert is coming off as even more of a psychopath when you realize that he was a guest on a number of podcasts in late 2019, months after the above email was sent. Remember how cocky he was? Robert was straight up lying in all of them.

You have to be a sociopath to steal that amount of money. The amount of lies he told to do that? It makes lying on a pinball podcast a cake walk.

And he still gives no shits or shown any remorse for anything he did. Hell I remember how annoyed he was to be in a court call having to plead the 5th a few hundred times. This is a guy who asked for a salary to maintain his lifestyle AFTER the SEC showed up.

He shut down the part of his brain that feels shame a long time ago. The way he lied, stole, and shoved himself into that polo...

#32347 1 year ago
Quoted from benheck:

Yup. Yes, it ended up being a Ponzi scheme. But in Robert's tiny little mind pinball was gonna "make good" and pay back the investors.
.

You are making baby steps but still in denial, or at the very least have your chronology wrong.

The correct order of things is:

It started out being a Ponzi scheme and ended up being a disastrously failed Ponzi-funded pinball company.

#32348 1 year ago

I've always thought that Charles Ponzi got a bad rap.

#32349 1 year ago

Robert was absolutely a sociopath. He has crazy eyes. Never trust crazy eyes (see also Elizabeth Holmes)

As for Ponzi scheme? Well, if you wanna lose a lot of money to hide what you keep, and do it using pinball, can't think of a better hire than Jpop!

#32350 1 year ago
Quoted from frolic:

I want to thank blueberryjohnson once again for his work in documenting everything for the public record of this thread.
What a wild story, and I've been here since the start. I love that we're getting a better, clearer picture.

I just think back at all the time we were thinking this was just a pinball debacle funded by some rich dumbass, then SEC dropped in, like a wrecking ball and changed everything.

Except we find Blobert wasnt rich, just a greedy sick dumbass.

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