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Quoted from mbeardsley:
So did the "nineteen" people in the lawsuit each lose just a $500 deposit, or did they each lose the full $15,000?

For accuracy, the price was $16,000. Which was unheard of money in 2011 and Stern games were selling for $4500-ish.

After the deposits were placed, payments were made in time increments. Magic Girl owners were fully invested and most of us eventually received a Magic Girl machine. Which was deducted at trial from the total amount owed.

Quoted from mbeardsley:
Besides the 19, how many people put in money for a Magic Girl and/or other machine?

That would be impossible to tell or at least we don't have that info.

Quoted from mbeardsley:
And how many of them actually got a refund out of deeproot?

Of the lawsuit group, none of us. The lawsuit group was not offered the same deal as all the others. We didn't like it and didn't trust Robert so we rejected it.
pasted_image (resized).png

Yeah, I knew that the 19 didn't get the refund, but I know that at least a few of the later "customers" got one.

I was just trying to get a feel for the total amount of money people lost to this whole endeavor.

Seems like a lot of people put in widely varying amounts of money, and some small number of people got money (or a box of lights) back out.

And now, 19 people got a pair of storage units filled with parts and drawings...

Quoted from mbeardsley:
Yeah, I knew that the 19 didn't get the refund, but I know that at least a few of the later "customers" got one.
I was just trying to get a feel for the total amount of money people lost to this whole endeavor.
Seems like a lot of people put in widely varying amounts of money, and some small number of people got money (or a box of lights) back out.
And now, 19 people got a pair of storage units filled with parts and drawings...

As I recall, some people not only fully paid in advance for their MGs, but also their RAZAs (and maybe even AIWs). I've never read anywhere how many people sent money for the least known title, Space Mission X.

Quoted from mbeardsley:
Seems like a lot of people put in widely varying amounts of money, and some small number of people got money (or a box of lights) back out.

From what I understood, JPop's accounting was haphazard and he sent deposit requests seemingly at random.

Quoted from ForceFlow:
From what I understood, JPop's accounting was haphazard and he sent deposit requests seemingly at random.

His accounting was so haphazard that he accidently bought himself a brand new car.

The scary thing is, Poppa Douche Bag just turns over a couple storage bins full of stuff and doesn't have to go to jail.....

I wonder how many people took the DR payout instead of continuing to chase the dragon. If I remember there was 1 guy for sure and maybe 1 or two others. I think most people stayed in, hoping they'd get a game by the end of everything

Quoted from Haymaker:
I wonder how many people took the DR payout instead of continuing to chase the dragon. If I remember there was 1 guy for sure and maybe 1 or two others. I think most people stayed in, hoping they'd get a game by the end of everything

That's my recollection of it also. Very small percentage took the refund.

Yeah, I didn't understand the people who passed on the refund at that point. They should have taken the refund, and used that money to just buy a RAZA later (if they ever actually got built).

Did anyone really think (at that point) that RAZA was going to sell so well that by losing their place "in line" that they'd be locked out of being able to buy one?
Or that RAZA was going to be so great that they'd be upset that they "missed out"?

I had hoped that deeproot would be successful, but I certainly wasn't willing to bet my money on it...

Quoted from Haymaker:
I wonder how many people took the DR payout instead of continuing to chase the dragon. If I remember there was 1 guy for sure and maybe 1 or two others. I think most people stayed in, hoping they'd get a game by the end of everything

From thread dialog it seemed most rolled their money forward, including buying UP with the sucker offers of gettin 2 or more machines.

If I had to spitball... I'd bet less than 10 took the real refund from DP. It seemed the JPOP web was probably less than 200 ppl total.. but that's a total guessimate. Probably more like <100... but I don't know of any inferred statements that were around or hard cites. Only RM would likely know..

Quoted from mbeardsley:
Yeah, I didn't understand the people who passed on the refund at that point. They should have taken the refund, and used that money to just buy a RAZA later (if they ever actually got built).
Did anyone really think (at that point) that RAZA was going to sell so well that by losing their place "in line" that they'd be locked out of being able to buy one?
Or that RAZA was going to be so great that they'd be upset that they "missed out"?
I had hoped that deeproot would be successful, but I certainly wasn't willing to bet my money on it...

From what I recall Robert was selling people on the refund being worth maybe half of what the game would ultimately cost. So, it was roll the dice on getting a game or get around half your money back. And a few people had already written off their losses, so they were fine rolling the dice.

Quoted from mbeardsley:
Yeah, I didn't understand the people who passed on the refund at that point. They should have taken the refund, and used that money to just buy a RAZA later (if they ever actually got built).
Did anyone really think (at that point) that RAZA was going to sell so well that by losing their place "in line" that they'd be locked out of being able to buy one?
Or that RAZA was going to be so great that they'd be upset that they "missed out"?
I had hoped that deeproot would be successful, but I certainly wasn't willing to bet my money on it...

I would also assume that if there was a lot of refunds requested that option would have dried up quickly.

Quoted from RustyLizard:
I would also assume that if there was a lot of refunds requested that option would have dried up quickly.

I remember after the RAZA preorders opened to the public and after initial delays, there was a period where refunds were offered... until they weren't. And later we determined that change took place around the same time Robert learned about the investigations into his business dealings.

Just thought this was funny, greeting from the North!!

64B61879-064B-453E-AF8F-2C1BC89E4143 (resized).jpeg

EDDE4671-0A7D-4CF3-ADAF-7A3E9581321D (resized).jpeg

Quoted from PinballBuzz:
Just thought this was funny, greeting from the North!!

PinballBuzz, shouldn't you be revealing a pinball machine like yesterday December 1st? Keep those feet toasty though, it's been cold around these parts.

Quoted from PinballBuzz:
Just thought this was funny.

Quoted from Smack:
PinballBuzz, shouldn't you have revealed a pinball machine yesterday on December 1st?

That post was a hint. Obviously Pinball Adventures has purchased the rights to the Food Truck license from deeproot.

Damm Snow!, Damm Redesign of the rail system due to the Damm factory Leprechaun, Damm the Food Truck secret is out, Damm I need to update!

charles-wells-brewery-damm-lemon_1480616417 (resized).png

Quoted from littlecammi:
That post was a hint. Obviously Pinball Adventures has purchased the rights to the Food Truck license from deeproot.

Turner pinball owns that.

Quoted from Mr68:
That's my recollection of it also. Very small percentage took the refund.

Most ppl I know (who were eligible) took the refund.

The Salt Lake City UT branch of deeproot had one of the working prototypes of Raza. Should be easy to track down. Considering nobody there knew how to move pinball machines. It had to have taken two or three people. Somebody will talk.

Some big ass motions from the trustee just dropped. Going to ask lawyers and legal enthusiasts to parse these docs and give us the gist.

First relates to a proposed settlement between all of the bankrupted deeproot businesses and the SEC. Robert is explicitly identified as not a party to it (last/recently we heard, he still wanted a trial).

deeprootcapital-212-2022.12.06.pdf

Second relates to a proposed settlement with Cycladic and other objecting parties.

deeprootcapital-213-2022.12.06.pdf

Not a lawyer but the way I read that SEC settlement, it would appear that the SEC understands they're not going to get anything from prosecuting them since they're all helmed by the same guy... who is demanding a jury trial. So you wrap up the companies in a settlement, and then focus on the star of the show. Just my non-legal educated opinion.

Quoted from blueberryjohnson:
Some big ass motions from the trustee just dropped. Going to ask lawyers and legal enthusiasts to parse these docs and give us the gist.
First relates to a proposed settlement between all of the bankrupted deeproot businesses and the SEC. Robert is explicitly identified as not a party to it (last/recently we heard, he still wanted a trial).
[quoted image]

So don’t forget that the deeproot entities are in chapter 7 bankruptcy proceedings. Once you do that, the government assigns a trustee to handle all business affairs and to liquidate the company. The trustee has absolute control of the company - they’re the CEO/President/Board of directors - and the previous management has no say. Once everything has been liquidated, the company is legally dissolved. In this case the trustee is settling with the SEC by making the deeproot companies admit to having a ton of outstanding debt and agreeing with the SECs demand for the companies to stop violating securities law - it makes no sense for the trustee to fight for anything - he has no horse in this race.

https://www.sec.gov/reportspubs/investor-publications/investorpubsbankrupt

https://restructuring.weil.com/chapter-7-trustees/whos-the-boss-tenth-circuit-says-its-the-chapter-7-trustee/?amp=1

The thing that I find interesting is that the chapter 7 trustee as the operator of the deeproot companies has access to any deeproot dealings and can turn it over to the SEC. Soooo if Robert has done anything shady, the trustee is essentially deeproot at this moment and if they have access to it, can pass it on if subpoenaed. And heck, they may even have a duty to investigate and report fraud.

https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/bankruptcy-trustee-suspects-fraud.html

Quoted from Inside:
So don’t forget that the deeproot entities are in chapter 7 bankruptcy proceedings. Once you do that, the government assigns a trustee to handle all business affairs and to liquidate the company. The trustee has absolute control of the company - they’re the CEO/President/Board of directors - and the previous management has no say. Once everything has been liquidated, the company is legally dissolved. In this case the trustee is settling with the SEC by making the deeproot companies admit to having a ton of outstanding debt and agreeing with the SECs demand for the companies to stop violating securities law - it makes no sense for the trustee to fight for anything - he has no horse in this race.
https://www.sec.gov/reportspubs/investor-publications/investorpubsbankrupt
https://restructuring.weil.com/chapter-7-trustees/whos-the-boss-tenth-circuit-says-its-the-chapter-7-trustee/?amp=1
The thing that I find interesting is that the chapter 7 trustee as the operator of the deeproot companies has access to any deeproot dealings and can turn it over to the SEC. Soooo if Robert has done anything shady, the trustee is essentially deeproot at this moment and if they have access to it, can pass it on if subpoenaed. And heck, they may even have a duty to investigate and report fraud.
https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/bankruptcy-trustee-suspects-fraud.html

That all makes sense. It seemed a little funny that each entity is like "We give up and we know we owe $40m. We give up and know we owe $15m." because we know they have next to no assets to liquidate. But it sounds like more of a formality rather than step one toward any repayment.

A bit of positive DR news from the TPN Scooby Doo episode (https://www.thepinballnetwork.net/e/the-pinball-show-scooby-doo-pinball-wbug-spooky-luke/) is that former deeproot studios artist Brad Duke (https://www.artstation.com/bradduke) did some work on Spooky's new game.

Check this out. Trustee is not playing around.

Screenshot 2022-12-09 at 8.51.48 PM (resized).png

Filed 14 complaints. Presumably all of them seeking to claw back funds from entities to which policy services / deeproot transferred funds. Why? Because, having seen the books, trustee asserts policy services / deeproot was a 100% ponzi scheme from the start, never generating any legitimate revenues, and so these transfers violated securities laws.

Here are two of the complaints. Maybe I'll grab them all at some point.

deeprootcapital-214-2022.12.07.pdf

deeprootcapital-228-2022.12.08.pdf

get them, Kemosabe
All the damage done,
All the good people over the years.
karma
Looks like it's starting to take shape for the home room.

How many years? for robert?

I'd pay good money to see Robert's perp walk.

DMSVPC9U8AATcFN (resized).jpg

Screenshots from one of the complaints to provide an overview of how the trustee makes his case. I've not downloaded all of the complaints, but am guessing they are similar. Some over-highlighting, but I don't feel like redoing.

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$865 in revenue all those years?

Let’s remind the lawyers of the tens of thousands of dollars lost in RAZA preorders… there’s more funny business in those books.

Quoted from TreyBo69:
$865 in revenue all those years?
Let’s remind the lawyers of the tens of thousands of dollars lost in RAZA preorders… there’s more funny business in those books.

Believe the $865 is specific to deeproot funds (you know, the company managing ~ $60m - though not the RAZA preorders).

Believe it or not I still don't think it was a ponzi scheme.

Robert thought Jpop's games would sell many thousands of units each. He showed us his made up numbers back in 2015. If all the games sold that well, that level of investment is less nuts.

Of course they wouldn't, and didn't, sell that well. Let's not forget this all fell apart AFTER the laughable sales of RAZA.

Granted Robert took money for one thing and spent it on another. Which is fraud. But in his mind the pinball was gonna work and he could put all the cookies back in the jar before anyone noticed.

Quoted from benheck:
Believe it or not I still don't think it was a ponzi scheme.
Robert thought Jpop's games would sell many thousands of units each. He showed us his made up numbers back in 2015. If all the games sold that well, that level of investment is less nuts.
Of course they wouldn't, and didn't, sell that well. Let's not forget this all fell apart AFTER the laughable sales of RAZA.
Granted Robert took money for one thing and spent it on another. Which is fraud. But in his mind the pinball was gonna work and he could put all the cookies back in the jar before anyone noticed.

If the transactions played out for years as the trustee asserts, it sounds like it is definitionally a ponzi

Quoted from blueberryjohnson:
If the transactions played out for years as the trustee asserts, it sounds like it is definitionally a ponzi

I agree with you and the SEC, it was a Ponzi scheme.

But to Ben's point, I agree with him that Robert believed RAZA would be so huge that he could pay the money back and with interest.

I wonder if thats why Robert wants a jury trial. So he can claim good intentions.

Quoted from Mr68:
I wonder if thats why Robert wants a jury trial. So he can claim good intentions.

Not sure that would sway a jury when the prosecution brings in a dozen little old ladies who on the stand, in tears, testify how they lost their life savings. But given roberts ego, he probably thinks he can.

Quoted from rosh:
Not sure that would sway a jury when the prosecution brings in a dozen little old ladies who on the stand, in tears, testify how they lost their life savings. But given roberts ego, he probably thinks he can.

Don't underestimate Robert's warmth and charm.

Quoted from deeproot:
This is fake and illicit use of our logo. Our law firm is contacting the authorities for original creator, and any subsequent posters,

Quoted from deeproot:
Stay out of it Ben. I consider your comment to be providing legal advice without a license.
—Robert

Quoted from benheck:
Believe it or not I still don't think it was a ponzi scheme.
But in his mind the pinball was gonna work and he could put all the cookies back in the jar before anyone noticed.

Right. Exactly like every Ponzi scheme In history.

Stop making excuses for this jackass. His “intentions” are completely irrelevant; it was a fraudulent Ponzi scheme from day 1.

You think madoff didn’t “intend” to make everything right at some point in his scheme?

I don’t recall Bernie Madoff starting a pinball company.

Yes, this was a Ponzi scheme, in that earlier investors were being paid with money from new investors, not from returns on investments.

But why does everything have to be crowbarred into black and white with some people? There is gray here: Blobert very obviously suffered from delusions of grandeur which led him to believe he was going to revolutionize pinball, bring in tons of money, and be able to make everything right in the end. Otherwise, why spend all that money on playing pinball manufacturer? Not to excuse his behavior, but it sounds to me like he bought into some "prosperity gospel" nonsense.

I’m sure the old ladies he stole $60 million from are just tickled pink that he “always intended” to actually make pinball machines with their money so he could make everything right in the end.

Quoted from CrazyLevi:
I’m sure the old ladies he stole $60 million from are just tickled pink that he “always intended” to actually make pinball machines.

How insightful.

Quoted from DanQverymuch:
How insightful.

Your drivel about shades of gray is far less insightful.

It’s completely irrelevant what his intentions were. You are either a crook committing fraud or you aren’t. There’s no shades of gray there.

Quoted from CrazyLevi:
There’s no shades of gray there.

Yeah, there sure is no shades.

Quoted from DanQverymuch:
Yeah, there sure is no shades.

He stole $60,000,000, minus the $856 the fund made. If it werent for those meddling kids, he may have gotten away with it.

There are no shades and this guy deserves no mercy. Same with anybody in his sphere that benefited from it.

Of course it was a ponzi. The guy bought a fucking home in Hawaii for his parents with a check written from the company account.

Be real. Just because Robert thought he was fine doesn’t mean it was legal. He had 60 million in assets under management and didn’t have a full time accountant. That’s because any accountant who whiffed even a cent of what he had done with the money would instantly resign for fear of going to prison.

You can’t pay dividends to existing shareholders with new investor money. There are accounting rules. If you break the rules you are committing fraud. It’s really quite simple.

It’s one thing to have a business that transparently accounts for money and raises money via honest services. Like, if I tell you I am going to start a pinball biz, and get 1 million from you, then I fail, that’s not fraud. But if I tell you that your 1 million dollars is safely invested in “the market” and produce a fraudulent statement of it, pay you $50k year one (that came from someone else), and at the same time, have actually spent your money on pinball, that’s fraud. Ponzi is just a type of fraud; it indicates that new money pays old investors. What Robert intended means nothing. He committed fraud the moment he mishandled funds / played shell games with the money and paid dividends out to old investors.

Shades of gray baby!

He obviously intended to flip that Hawaiian condo for a profit so he could pay everybody back. Things just didn’t work out though.

A promised return of nearly 7 times more than the national rate at the time?

Any mediocre advisor could have spotted that red flag and should have dug deeper.
derproot 1 (resized).png

Quoted from Mr68:
Any mediocre advisor could have spotted that as a red flag and should have dug deeper.

The trustees and debtors should also be suing these financial advisors to attempt to claw back the kickback fees 100%.

The problem is going after these much smaller amounts is painfully expensive relative to the recovery rate.

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deeproot Pinball thread

By pin2d

5 years ago

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