(Topic ID: 203700)

deeproot Pinball thread

By pin2d

4 years ago


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11
#30551 4 months ago

I appreciate all the summarizing, digging, and various forms of commenting from the latest round of deeproot events. Thanks all.

#30552 4 months ago

Picked this artifact up on eBay, should I wear it to the next show?

pasted_image (resized).png
#30553 4 months ago
Quoted from dudah:

Picked this artifact up on eBay, should I wear it to the next show?
[quoted image]

Only if you're prepared for an onslaught of sexy people trying to get in your pants.

#30554 3 months ago
Quoted from DudeRegular:

I appreciate all the summarizing, digging, and various forms of commenting from the latest round of deeproot events. Thanks all.

Seconded! Many thanks to the sewer's fine live commentators.

A minor memento of yesterday's proceedings:

deeprootcapital-102-2022.04.12.pdf
#30555 3 months ago

Judge's order approving the sale to TuYo. $4.3m in in-force policies + $27.3m in lapsed policies for $1m purchase price (policy amounts are face values).

deeprootcapital-104-2022.04.13.pdf
#30556 3 months ago
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:

Judge's order approving the sale to TuYo. $4.3m in in-force policies + $27.3m in lapsed policies for $1m purchase price (policy amounts are face values).[quoted image]

Was it $40k/month in premiums, or was it $40k to keep them from lapsing? Depending on how old these folks are, $40k/month could be quite a bleed.

#30557 3 months ago
Quoted from JodyG:

Was it $40k/month in premiums, or was it $40k to keep them from lapsing? Depending on how old these folks are, $40k/month could be quite a bleed.

Unclear. They gave a figure that needed to be paid within 30 (or 60?) days. That I assume was to keep another policy or policies from lapsing. But if it were, it doesn't mean that amount needed every month. Robert was making late, partial, and no payments for various policies (evidence: all the lapsed ones), so I don't believe we know the expected monthly payments keep the in-force ones on track. Perhaps iceman44 would?

#30558 3 months ago

The lapsed ones seem like nothing but a HUGE win for the insurance companies. Every penny paid was a waste.

#30559 3 months ago

There are so many types of insurance policies and different products/options/add-on sold it's impossible to guess what the insurance policy would do on a missed payment. This is why you need an illustration to gauge the policy.

For basic term policies you miss a payment you get 30 days grace to pay the missed premium before it lapses.

If it's a whole life/universal life type policy they have multiple variations of nonforfeiture options but in 'general' missed premiums is added to the policy as a loan or the missed payment is taken from the cash value.

Eventually the loan and interest will 'eat' the policy and it will lapse or the cash values will run out and the policy will lapse.

#30560 3 months ago
Quoted from davidlldennis:

There are so many types of insurance policies and different products/options/add-on sold it's impossible to guess what the insurance policy would do on a missed payment. This is why you need an illustration to gauge the policy.
For basic term policies you miss a payment you get 30 days grace to pay the missed premium before it lapses.
If it's a whole life/universal life type policy they have multiple variations of nonforfeiture options but in 'general' missed premiums is added to the policy as a loan or the missed payment is taken from the cash value.
Eventually the loan and interest will 'eat' the policy and it will lapse or the cash values will run out and the policy will lapse.

Thanks for the weigh-in, davidlldennis. If we were able to get your additional details about the policies, would you be interested in taking a closer look and giving your expert opinion on what can be gleaned/surmised from them?

Note: I'm not saying I necessarily have much else on them. But if you say you're up to evaluate whatever I can find, I'll see what I can find.

12
#30561 3 months ago

Maybe there's a Twilight Zone-esque twist...

"Yahoo! I got the insurance policies! When these people die, I'll be rich!"

(turns on news) "The key to eternal life has been found!"

"Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

#30562 3 months ago
Quoted from benheck:

Maybe there's a Twilight Zone-esque twist...
"Yahoo! I got the insurance policies! When these people die, I'll be rich!"
(turns on news) "The key to eternal life has been found!"
"Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

[Turner sells off SnackDot for pennies, having found a new fortune effectively managing a "Dead Pool" of septuagenarians.]

["Snacks as a Service" becomes the next Gold Rush overnight.]

[The US economy crumbles, becoming a post-apocalyptic hellscape ruled by dweebs with PT Cruisers and bulk supplies of bespoke snack foods.]

[Life Insurance companies go insolvent due to the instability of financial markets.]

[TuYo Holdings is left with nothing but regret, empty stomachs, and inexplicable cravings for Organic Pop Tarts.]

#30563 3 months ago
Quoted from benheck:

Maybe there's a Twilight Zone-esque twist...
"Yahoo! I got the insurance policies! When these people die, I'll be rich!"
(turns on news) "The key to eternal life has been found!"
"Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

or what if they pull a weekend at bernie's and their kids just keep collecting the insurance policy money?

#30564 3 months ago

Honestly, I think this was a brilliant move by TuYo. I suspect that this will make them very very wealthy in the long run. The bankruptcy judge has reviewed the available information and blessed the sale so there's really not much else to talk about here regarding the assets. The original deeproot investors had since December 9th to come up with some sort of a plan for the continuation of the company and they only woke up on April 1st to raise an objection. You snooze & you lose, right?

Still waiting on movement on the SEC front here...

#30565 3 months ago
Quoted from Inside:

Honestly, I think this was a brilliant move by TuYo. I suspect that this will make them very very wealthy in the long run. The bankruptcy judge has reviewed the available information and blessed the sale so there's really not much else to talk about here regarding the assets. The original deeproot investors had since December 9th to come up with some sort of a plan for the continuation of the company and they only woke up on April 1st to raise an objection. You snooze & you lose, right?
Still waiting on movement on the SEC front here...

Interested why you think this will make them very wealthy. Not saying I disagree (I have no idea), just interested in your thought process.

Regarding the deeproot investors, they were investors in the funds, not in the company (or any of the deeproot companies). What standing or power would they have to create or execute a company continuation plan?

#30566 3 months ago
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:

Interested why you think this will make them very wealthy. Not saying I disagree (I have no idea), just interested in your thought process.
Regarding the deeproot investors, they were investors in the funds, not in the company (or any of the deeproot companies). What standing or power would they have to create or execute a company continuation plan?

The guys obviously did their research. You don't roll the dice like this with a million dollars unless you think you're going to come out on top.

#30567 3 months ago
Quoted from Inside:

The guys obviously did their research. You don't roll the dice like this with a million dollars unless you think you're going to come out on top.

Oh totally. Just wondering if you had assessed things to have particular insights into the potential gains.

What were you thinking the the fund investors could have done vis a vis deeproot's operation as a company?

#30568 3 months ago
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:

Oh totally. Just wondering if you had assessed things to have particular insights into the potential gains.
What were you thinking the the fund investors could have done vis a vis deeproot's operation as a company?

Nah, no particular insights.

They could've volunteered to pay the premiums for one. They didn't. They could've claimed that the entities should be consolidated & administrated as one entity (I don't know if this is possible, but it might be per Rule 1015) so then the profits from the first pinball/tech bankruptcy auction would go towards keeping the premiums alive. I imagine that there are other legal avenues that they could've pursued that as a random pinball forum poster I cannot fathom, but they did not.

I don't understand why they objected the way that they did or what they thought they would get out of it. It was a lot of "this is unfair, this is unfair" which is fine for pinside sewerposting, but obviously doesn't hold any sway in a court of law.

The trustee's responsibility was to claw back some money for all the various DR creditors -- of which the investors are only a part. There are still employees, vendors, and the landlord to pay. The trustee mentioned that the policies are "withering on the vine" (or similar) and unless someone starts shelling out the money to keep them going, then instead of $1M everyone gets $0M. So -- in the end, the sale to TuYo is the only thing that made any sense in the absence of any alternative plans. It really does seem like it was the best outcome for the creditors.

#30569 3 months ago
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:

Interested why you think this will make them very wealthy. Not saying I disagree (I have no idea), just interested in your thought process.
Regarding the deeproot investors, they were investors in the funds, not in the company (or any of the deeproot companies). What standing or power would they have to create or execute a company continuation plan?

....also we don't know if TuYo have the cashflow to keep servicing these policies

#30570 3 months ago
Quoted from Stuieb84:

....also we don't know if TuYo have the cashflow to keep servicing these policies

Judge said they showed enough including what's in the bank for him to feel like they are operating in good faith with the offer. I suppose the judge doesn't care if they blow all their money to get the policies and then can't keep them up. But for a computer guy and his lawyer to throw together a million bucks in a couple weeks after a casual conversation with RM when Turner is seeing what stuff might be sitting around of value, plus start paying premiums before even getting the OK on the complex stalking horse sale motion they put together, submitted, and fought through the court systems, then they probably have made sure they has enough cash to just throw the sunk money down the toilet.

#30571 3 months ago
Quoted from Inside:

Nah, no particular insights.
They could've volunteered to pay the premiums for one. They didn't. They could've claimed that the entities should be consolidated & administrated as one entity (I don't know if this is possible, but it might be per Rule 1015) so then the profits from the first pinball/tech bankruptcy auction would go towards keeping the premiums alive. I imagine that there are other legal avenues that they could've pursued that as a random pinball forum poster I cannot fathom, but they did not.
I don't understand why they objected the way that they did or what they thought they would get out of it. It was a lot of "this is unfair, this is unfair" which is fine for pinside sewerposting, but obviously doesn't hold any sway in a court of law.
The trustee's responsibility was to claw back some money for all the various DR creditors -- of which the investors are only a part. There are still employees, vendors, and the landlord to pay. The trustee mentioned that the policies are "withering on the vine" (or similar) and unless someone starts shelling out the money to keep them going, then instead of $1M everyone gets $0M. So -- in the end, the sale to TuYo is the only thing that made any sense in the absence of any alternative plans. It really does seem like it was the best outcome for the creditors.

I agree that it made sense for the judge to rule as he did based on where things stood and without anything presented yesterday for him to go another direction. Bird in hand type thing.

However, as to what the creditors could have done earlier? I'm sure they conceivably could have done something, but I don't know what and I think they were not in a good position to take action. The only time the details of any of this policy stuff were brought to the fore was with the TuYo motion and stalking horse agreement. We heard from Turner himself this originated fairly out of the blue when he went by the office, saw Robert, was asking about equipment, Robert brought up the policies, and he asked to hear/see more about them. Then, in short course, he flew into action, setting up TuYo, putting together the stalking horse motion, and triggering the filing that I shared here. That filing is pretty much the thing that triggered the creditors to themselves have to spring into action.

But why couldn't they have reasonably action sprung earlier? The trustee himself even spoke about how little access he's gotten to information about the policies, and he presumably has the most access. The other info we have are from Robert's various LLC filings that didn't come until January, contained precious few details, and had a bunch of errors in the details they did. The trustee spoke to Robert's foot dragging and stonewalling of disclosures beyond that which he is eventually compelled. If he has problems getting any info out of Robert, what changes do some far flung "little old ladies"?

The LOLs are not an organized entity - they likely never heard of one another prior to this implosion, and I have no idea if they have subsequently joined forces. The first time we've seen anything from them in court was this hearing with the hiring of Jurek, who herself said she just got on the case. And the triggering event that necessarily prompted that urgency was the stalking horse sale motion which was only filed last month.

Could the LOLs have proactively gotten together in December to work up a battle plan? Absolutely. But were they well positioned to and was it obvious they should have? I'd say no and no. They're closer to it then me, so maybe would/should have been thinking from the jump what's going to happen to the policies, are they still being paid, etc? But they probably figured the trustee had it under control and would engage with them about what to do, rather than have the solution to the situation be something that was brought to him.

We'd have to do some look backs to figure out when the trustee first flagged that policies had lapsed due to missed payments and others could lapse soon without an intervention. I'd say that would have been a red flag for the LOLs to recognize the need for decisive action. But even if they did, given the above challenges of access and lack of power over the operations, I feel like it would have been a very tough road to hoe.

Kim and and some of the other zidware creditors were likely already well acquainted from the point they pre-ordered those games. They were part of a tight knit community, along for the rid together for years, and probably in the habit of spending hours on a forum dedicated to their particular hobby (pinball) and specific issue (Jpop games). The LOLs had none of these circumstances favorable to quickly organizing a plan to take over the insurance policies (or realizing they even needed one). Well, unless the Turner Logic Deeproot Funds portal had an active investor forum. Anybody know?

16
#30572 3 months ago

This car was in front of me for several miles today. "Hey, a fellow pinball kindred spirit," I concluded, as I squinted to read the sticker on the rear window.

"I love my pinball, too, bro," I silently screamed down the road in his direction.

But, just like the RAZA journey, I saw what I wanted to see. Approaching the actual message for a clearer view yielded only profound disappointment. "I love my. . ." Sigh.

20220413_171147 (resized).jpg20220413_171155 (resized).jpg20220413_171328 (resized).jpg20220413_171332 (resized).jpg
#30573 3 months ago

When this deeproot saga ends, I am inclined to change my avatar to a pit bull to represent the grand misinterpretation of pinball. I invite my friends here to litter the end of this thread, at that time, with a flurry of pit bull avatars.

#30574 3 months ago
Quoted from ZNET:

This car was in front of me for several miles today. "Hey, a fellow pinball kindred spirit," I concluded, as I squinted to read the sticker on the rear window.
"I love my pinball, too, bro," I silently screamed down the road in his direction.
But, just like the RAZA journey, I saw what I wanted to see. Approaching the actual message for a clearer view yielded only profound disappointment. "I love my. . ." Sigh.
[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

Tragic. That took courage to share. I'm very sorry.

#30575 3 months ago

The real Adventureland are the furry friends we made along the way.

#30576 3 months ago
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:

Tragic. That took courage to share. I'm very sorry.

My epiphany that Zidware was doomed was the moment I received the slick Jpop Alice in Wonderland solicitation. I remember opening the fancy envelope and feeling betrayed.

I soon demanded a RAZA refund and drafted the lawsuit shortly thereafter.

It took a few months to identify and hire Zane Smith, Esquire in Chicago to file the suit, although I had met Zane years earlier. I needed local counsel and Zane agreed to pursue the case.

Ultimately and fortuitously, I recouped my deposit payment ($6,250 as I recall). Nevertheless, I should have recognized the project's futility earlier, disregarding my instincts, based on an illusion.

#30577 3 months ago
Quoted from ZNET:

When this deeproot saga ends, I am inclined to change my avatar to a pit bull to represent the grand misinterpretation of pinball.

I no longer correct people when they ask me how its going with my Ping-Pong.

#30578 3 months ago
Quoted from Mr68:

I no longer correct people when they ask me how its going with my Ping-Pong.

I had someone recently at work ask me if I play ping-pong. We have a ping-pong table at work but I never play it. They seemed a bit confused when I told them no and the whole thing was kind of weird. Some people know I own pins so maybe that's what they meant. I don't see how you can get those mixed up, though.

#30579 3 months ago
Quoted from jawjaw:

I had someone recently at work ask me if I play ping-pong. We have a ping-pong table at work but I never play it. They seemed a bit confused when I told them no and the whole thing was kind of weird. Some people know I own pins so maybe that's what they meant. I don't see how you can get those mixed up, though.

PEOPLE DO

#30580 3 months ago

Pinball, ping pong, pachinko, potato. Basically all the same thing.

#30581 3 months ago

First let me preface that the following statement is in no way based in fact but my uninformed opinion:

This whole thing reminds me of Nedry shouting in Jurassic Park in public and then saying to his co-conspirator, “see nobody cares”. They all know what’s going on here and they don’t care. As long as they all get paid.

Robert getting/got some sort of off the books kickback from Tuyo. Let all the least desirable policies lapse. Keep up payment on the 90 year olds with stage 4 cancer. They are going to make a killing.

10
#30582 3 months ago

Dropping some recent research I pulled together regarding Robert's various LLCs. Perhaps it may be interest or utility to investigative journalists or lawyers working on SEC, bankruptcy, criminal, or other civil cases.

And of course, I also welcome (nay, covet) discussion and investigation from the sewer crew.

Robert J. Mueller LLC Research 2022.04.13.pdf

#30583 3 months ago
Quoted from dudah:

Picked this artifact up on eBay, should I wear it to the next show?
[quoted image]

On my I have one similar so does my friend from JCTN Don. It's about all we got for our money and time

#30584 3 months ago
Quoted from dudah:

Picked this artifact up on eBay, should I wear it to the next show?
[quoted image]

This is one of my "treasures" from a time past. Handed directly to me from John himself when I visited Zidware.
Thinking of going to eBay with a description of: "Has Jpoop DNA on it".

Sounds exciting, right?

zidware20220414_062201 (resized).jpg
#30585 3 months ago

I'd buy that sucker if I could still squeeze into a large.

#30586 3 months ago
Quoted from Mr68:

This is one of my "treasures" from a time past. Handed directly to me from John himself when I visited Zidware.
Thinking of going to eBay with a description of: "Has Jpoop DNA on it".
Sounds exciting, right?
[quoted image]

would definitely wear that in public before the raza one

#30587 3 months ago

Somebody hit the nail on the head here earlier - JPOOP was making NFT's before it was cool.

#30588 3 months ago
Quoted from benheck:

JPOOP was making NFTs before it was cool.

No. He was making NFWs.

Quoted from ForceFlow:

Pinball, ping pong, pachinko, potato. Basically the same thing.

So the song actually goes "you say potato, I say pinball?"

#30589 3 months ago

Considering the name of that song is actually “Let’s Call The Whole Thing Off”, that sounds about right for this thread.

13
#30590 3 months ago
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:

would definitely wear that in public before the raza one

I'd be pleased to ship that off to you as my gift. If you wear a size Large, send me your address and I'll get it along to you.
And please be careful about the size. I don't want to see any weird, Hawaiian beach pictures of you.
istockphoto-172701929-612x612 (resized).jpg

#30591 3 months ago
Quoted from Mr68:

I'd be pleased to ship that off to you as my gift. If you wear a size Large, send me your address and I'll get it along to you.
And please be careful about the size. I don't want to see any weird Hawaiian beach pictures of you. [quoted image]

Very kind of you (though I'm a medium). And that I'd wear it in public before the raza one doesn't mean I'd wear it in public

#30592 3 months ago
Quoted from jawjaw:

I had someone recently at work ask me if I play ping-pong. We have a ping-pong table at work but I never play it. They seemed a bit confused when I told them no and the whole thing was kind of weird. Some people know I own pins so maybe that's what they meant. I don't see how you can get those mixed up, though.

Lately I have been telling my boss I have been doing a pinball league Fridays after work. The other day he asks: “So how goes the bowling?”

#30593 3 months ago
Quoted from Mr68:

This is one of my "treasures" from a time past. Handed directly to me from John himself when I visited Zidware.
Thinking of going to eBay with a description of: "Has Jpoop DNA on it".
Sounds exciting, right?
[quoted image]

Shirt is in the Designer’s official purple - Priceless. Missing JPOP’s real autograph - Fail. I’ll give ya $50.

#30594 3 months ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

Shirt is in the Designer’s official purple - Priceless. Missing JPOP’s real autograph - Fail. I’ll give ya $50.

I never wear t-shirts, I just don't. So if BBJ doesn't want it, I think I'm gonna have it framed.

#30595 3 months ago
Quoted from Mr68:

I never wear t-shirts, I just don't. So if BBJ doesn't want it, I think I'm gonna have it framed.

motivation_poster (resized).jpg
#30596 3 months ago
Quoted from Mr68:

I never wear t-shirts, I just don't. So if BBJ doesn't want it, I think I'm gonna have it framed.

Great idea. Should look fantastic.

#30597 3 months ago
Quoted from Mr68:

I never wear t-shirts, I just don't.

I don't even understand these words.

#30598 3 months ago

Best part of that shirt is the 2011 copyright. A decade spent chasing the dragon. TOTAN really hit some guys hard.

#30599 3 months ago
Quoted from ZNET:

When this deeproot saga ends, I am inclined to change my avatar to a pit bull to represent the grand misinterpretation of pinball. I invite my friends here to litter the end of this thread, at that time, with a flurry of pit bull avatars.

Careful, you may be moderated for being off topic. Seems they are clamping down on dog and beer discussions.

#30600 3 months ago
Quoted from yancy:

Best part of that shirt is the 2011 copyright. A decade spent chasing the dragon. TOTAN really hit some guys hard.

Even better, you can still order zidware 2009 merch!

https://www.cafepress.com/profile/19394640

A sampling of the John's wares.

Screen Shot 2022-04-14 at 10.07.27 AM (resized).png

Screen Shot 2022-04-14 at 10.07.17 AM (resized).png

Screen Shot 2022-04-14 at 10.07.04 AM (resized).png

Screen Shot 2022-04-14 at 10.06.48 AM (resized).png

Screen Shot 2022-04-14 at 10.06.29 AM (resized).png

So it turns out Zidware was the first pinball lifestyle brand. Maybe Jpop can sue his way back into Stern?

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