(Topic ID: 203700)

deeproot Pinball thread

By pin2d

6 years ago


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  • Latest reply 2 hours ago by Inside
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#30101 2 years ago
Quoted from trilogybeer:

It would have to rotate and tilt. Looks like it rotates 180 degrees and can be used as shown ( a smaller play field with flippers hitting back at the player) Then it has to rotate 180 degrees from the position shown and tilt up to mate with the rest of the playfield. Then the flippers shoot away from the player and the upper half of the playfield is available to the player. It has to start in a position opposite of what is shown and it has to rotate otherwise the game has no shooter lane. It would only have a shooter lane when the flippers are rotated to the bottom.

I not so sure. Look how deep the cabinet is. To my mind, the main playfield must be raised and supported much higher up with a perspex window over the lower field area. That would let you attach the rest of the shooter lane to it. It would also have to be high enough up for an extra pair of flipper mechs to attach to with no clash (unless they use the P3 method, not likely). But unless I'm missing something, the sticking point for a turning playfield would be that if you rotate it 180 degrees you have no way of shooting past that playfield area. It's all self-contained. I see no additional flippers on the main field either. So after you launch the ball into play, what does the game do?

Perhaps instead the idea was for that large area to have two levels and to raise up and down, like Zaccaria Time Machine.

#30102 2 years ago
Quoted from IMI4tth3w:

A little tidbit behind the electronics: The idea was that it would be modular and games would share 90% of the hardware/wiring. We would be able to mass order the cables at certain lengths to save costs and eliminate game specific custom harnesses. You lose on having a lot more connectors and more wires under the playfield but you gain in modularity. Whether or not this was the correct route to pursue is debatable. But that's the route deeproot went.

Oh no, not again. The modular playfield idea was a bust for us at Heighway, Spooky has discovered the pitfalls of two similar games with 'identical' playfields, Andrew McBain floated the same idea before Spooky showed us it but was easy to convince why it was impractical from a design standpoint, and Stern only 'reskin' games long after the fact (Family Guy / Shrek excluded, which they managed to make work). Only P3 has successfully demonstrated the potential of such a model, and that's purely because of what P3 is and it's been and long and very hard sell until Gerry struck gold with Weird Al.

#30103 2 years ago
Quoted from EalaDubhSidhe:

Spooky has discovered the pitfalls of two similar games with 'identical' playfields,

What pitfalls are you referring to? Like, coding for an extra game when you could have just sold one model or something else?

#30104 2 years ago
Quoted from EalaDubhSidhe:

Oh no, not again. The modular playfield idea was a bust for us at Heighway, Spooky has discovered the pitfalls of two similar games with 'identical' playfields, Andrew McBain floated the same idea before Spooky showed us it but was easy to convince why it was impractical from a design standpoint, and Stern only 'reskin' games long after the fact (Family Guy / Shrek excluded, which they managed to make work). Only P3 has successfully demonstrated the potential of such a model, and that's purely because of what P3 is and it's been and long and very hard sell until Gerry struck gold with Weird Al.

Let me be more specific. There were zero plans to have playfields swap between machines (although I suppose it could be possible with updated game code).

I’m talking about the wire harness specifically. The wires were generic with connectors on each end. One cable for each switch/solenoid/etc that would connect to a sort of “node” board. No game specific harnesses.

-13
#30105 2 years ago

Please contact me if you want to try to get some of this stuff together & working from the auction.

#30106 2 years ago
Quoted from TreyBo69:

It’s crazy how people just bounced between very ambitious projects and not focusing on finishing a single one.

What’s crazy is all these other playfield concepts and not a single working copy of the flagship product RAZA. Do you know what kind of stupid idiot you need to be to have all the resources in the world and still screw that up?

Well we do now…

23
#30107 2 years ago
Quoted from greatwichjohn:

Please contact me if you want to try to get some of this stuff together & working from the auction.

Arrgh, you say this twice every page. Since it seems like those who want to pursue certain efforts are already directly coordinating amongst themselves, I'd think anyone who wanted would have let you know by now... So you can probably give it a rest.

17
#30108 2 years ago
Quoted from greatwichjohn:

Please contact me if you want to try to get some of this stuff together & working from the auction.

Quoted from goingincirclez:

Arrgh, you say this twice every page. Since it seems like those who want to pursue certain efforts are already directly coordinating amongst themselves, I'd think anyone who wanted would have let you know by now... So you can probably give it a rest.

Ok, I'm genuinely curious since you greatwichjohn keep mentioning offering to help and since it sounded like you don't have any deeproot game parts--what exactly are you offering to help with? Do you have access to plans, parts, or code that other folks don't have? Is there some other form of assistance that you can offer or are offering?

31
#30109 2 years ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

You are not wrong. Many of the games were touted as being well past first whitewood stage. If there isn’t a hidden cache of “good stuff” revealed after more deeproot stuff comes up for sale, then it looks very poorly on the Designers. If something / “anything” of value shows up like a 2nd or 3rd level whitewood of some playfields with cool mechs, then the designers are redeemed for leading everybody on.

Merlin's Arcade was a fully shoot-able playfield. It was a completed layout back in 2019. The layout shot like butter and I only needed a little mechanical engineering support to finish the lock mech.

#30110 2 years ago
Quoted from pinballguru:

Merlin's Arcade was a fully shoot-able playfield. It was a completed layout back in 2019. The layout shot like butter and I only needed a little mechanical engineering support to finish the lock mech.

Seems ridiculous that all the engineers were focused on reinventing the wheel with a new cabinet design and that it took so much time to figure it out. While all the designs were neglected.

Mix in spending many hundreds of thousands on equipment the size of an apartment to do tasks that wouldn’t be required until the designs were complete and ready for mass production much later on. The ultimate putting the cart before the horse business model.

#30111 2 years ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

Ok, I'm genuinely curious since you greatwichjohn keep mentioning offering to help and since it sounded like you don't have any deeproot game parts--what exactly are you offering to help with? Do you have access to plans, parts, or code that other folks don't have? Is there some other form of assistance that you can offer or are offering?

He wants a job. There's MILLIONS available. Go for it John.

#30112 2 years ago
Quoted from vicjw66:

Seems ridiculous that all the engineers were focused on reinventing the wheel with a new cabinet design and that it took so much time to figure it out. While all the designs were neglected.
Mix in spending many hundreds of thousands on equipment the size of an apartment to do tasks that wouldn’t be required until the designs were complete and ready for mass production much later on. The ultimate putting the cart before the horse business model.

It's almost like the head genius in charge had no idea what he was doing.

#30113 2 years ago

Deeproot youtube channel finally/recently gone, btw

#30114 2 years ago
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:

Deeproot youtube channel finally/recently gone, btw

The videos have been gone for a few weeks, at least. I'm guessing they may have been taken down back when the linkedin profiles and website were swept away.

22
#30115 2 years ago

PSA: Not sure if anyones interested or has heard, but if you are looking to cobble together games from parts and connect with others who got RAZA part lots from the auction there’s a dude I know of that I think wants to help

#30116 2 years ago
Quoted from Mbecker:

PSA: Not sure if anyones interested or has heard, but if you are looking to cobble together games from parts and connect with others who got RAZA part lots from the auction there’s a dude I know of that I think wants to help

Just not with Bible Adventures, it's too complex. We'll have to look elsewhere.

#30117 2 years ago
Quoted from Mbecker:

PSA: Not sure if anyones interested or has heard, but if you are looking to cobble together games from parts and connect with others who got RAZA part lots from the auction there’s a dude I know of that I think wants to help

Would love to work with this mystery person as long as he/she earns at least $24K annually from a U.S. pension.

#30118 2 years ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

The videos have been gone for a few weeks, at least. I'm guessing they may have been taken down back when the linkedin profiles and website were swept away.

They remained up for months after that

#30119 2 years ago
Quoted from IMI4tth3w:

Let me be more specific. There were zero plans to have playfields swap between machines (although I suppose it could be possible with updated game code).
I’m talking about the wire harness specifically. The wires were generic with connectors on each end. One cable for each switch/solenoid/etc that would connect to a sort of “node” board. No game specific harnesses.

Automotive companies seem to do this, they use the same harness for all trim levels of the same car and there's extra little plugs here and there on different models

#30120 2 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

This should be a fine starting off point for anybody who needs to get the history and gist of this whole scam - from 2010 or so up to today:
https://player.fm/series/the-worst-of-all-possible-worlds/emergency-pod-deeproot-pinball-ponzi-feat-levi-nayman

I'm still working my way through the podcast, excellent so far and well worth listening too.

#30121 2 years ago
Quoted from jayhawkai:

Would love to work with this mystery person as long as he/she earns at least $24K annually from a U.S. pension.

One word... Beer Money!!

13
#30122 2 years ago
Quoted from greatwichjohn:

Please contact me if you want to try to get some of this stuff together & working from the auction.

-1
#30123 2 years ago

You guys got it right. Beer money (my wife loves beer also), & lots of it. I love to buy it by the cases! Now that I am retired with my meager pension, & looking for something to do with my spare time. People likely know of my pinball hobby business, & working on games for over 25 years.
I have been in contact with a winner of a huge lot. Done business with Pinball Life & all the other pinball parts suppliers. Worked with license holders over the years. We also have local area guys that do metal work, printing, cnc, wiring etc.
So if someone wants to try & do something with the salvage of the Deeproot fiasco you can reach out to me.

-32
#30124 2 years ago

I was out of line. I'm sorry. The way I typed it compared to how I meant it was over the top. Apologies

49
#30125 2 years ago
Quoted from tomdotcom:

People know you're a mentally unstable, bankrupt alcoholic. That's it. They're all laughing at you. Get a clue.

I don't agree with that. A lot of us like to poke a bit of fun at John but he seems like a good guy in general and I think you're being WAY too hard on him.

#30126 2 years ago
Quoted from Inside:

it’s the third party auctioneer company not keeping tabs on people..

This happens ALL THE TIME with auctions. Very rarely will you find an auction house that closely monitors the people and what they are supposed to be walking out the door with. Most item winners are honest but sadly, some are not and they take advantage of the chaos onsite. I'm really surprised nobody grabbed any of my deeproot water bottles?! The shipper says they're all there.

#30127 2 years ago
Quoted from snakesnsparklers:

I don't agree with that. A lot of us like to poke a bit of fun at John but he seems like a good guy in general and I think you're being WAY too hard on him.

It's always ugly when Pinside drops to personal attacks.

#30128 2 years ago
Quoted from d0n:

This happens ALL THE TIME with auctions. Very rarely will you find an auction house that closely monitors the people and what they are supposed to be walking out the door with. Most item winners are honest but sadly, some are not and they take advantage of the chaos onsite. I'm really surprised nobody grabbed any of my deeproot water bottles?! The shipper says they're all there.

Except for the one I snagged!
Just kidding.. I actually didn't even see them when I was there

#30129 2 years ago
Quoted from EalaDubhSidhe:

I don't think it rotates. It looks like one great big lower playfield, angled backwards like the original BH has.

It rotates. 100% positive.

#30130 2 years ago
Quoted from snakesnsparklers:

I don't agree with that. A lot of us like to poke a bit of fun at John but he seems like a good guy in general and I think you're being WAY too hard on him.

If I were going to the Pintastic show this coming June, I would arrive with a six pack and join John in his booth. I met him a few years ago at TPF and he's a dedicated pinhead. And a good sport on Pinside.
Albeit a bit irritating at times.

19
#30131 2 years ago

Here is a quick video walk through of Deeproot as of noon on Wednesday, March 30th. I apologize for the vertical orientation.
At the one minute mark you will see Fire & Brimstone still in someone's office. As I understand it, there were two different iterations of this machine on the premises, but I can not speak as to the location of the other one.

#30132 2 years ago

So much room for non-activities!

#30133 2 years ago
Quoted from greatwichjohn:

You guys got it right. Beer money (my wife loves beer also), & lots of it. I love to buy it by the cases! Now that I am retired with my meager pension, & looking for something to do with my spare time. People likely know of my pinball hobby business, & working on games for over 25 years.
I have been in contact with a winner of a huge lot. Done business with Pinball Life & all the other pinball parts suppliers. Worked with license holders over the years. We also have local area guys that do metal work, printing, cnc, wiring etc.
So if someone wants to try & do something with the salvage of the Deeproot fiasco you can reach out to me.

Since you're so hard up for money, have you explored alternative ways to get income than this pinball stuff? Serious question. It sounds like you're in a pretty challenging set of circumstances and should consider more straightforward, easy, and low risk ways to build up some savings than messing with deeproot's wreckage.

#30134 2 years ago

So I wonder who scavenged the parts out of the Fire & Brimstone cabinet later on Wednesday or Thursday morning. Also looks like @twazu's playfield was still there at the time of the above video.

Screen Shot 2022-04-04 at 10.52.41 AM (resized).pngScreen Shot 2022-04-04 at 10.52.41 AM (resized).png

(note: the pics I posted previously were rotated 180 degrees. The pfs were laying against the wall like that when I took the pics.)

1B646DF4-634F-4D08-8514-CE78F7D703DF_1_105_c (resized).jpeg1B646DF4-634F-4D08-8514-CE78F7D703DF_1_105_c (resized).jpeg
#30135 2 years ago

Finally getting around to removing pages that have people's personal information from four bankruptcy docs that have been sitting on my desktop for a couple months. I don't think I previously posted these.

One for zidware and three for three deeproot LLCs (Wizard Mode, Deeproot Funds, Deeproot 575).

deeproot575-modified-2022.01.13.pdfdeeproot575-modified-2022.01.13.pdfdeeprootfunds-modified-2022.01.13.pdfdeeprootfunds-modified-2022.01.13.pdfwizardmode-modified-2022.01.13.pdfwizardmode-modified-2022.01.13.pdfzidware-modified-2019.11.22.pdfzidware-modified-2019.11.22.pdf
#30136 2 years ago
Quoted from Mr68:

If I were going to the Pintastic show this coming June, I would arrive with a six pack and join John in his booth. I met him a few years ago at TPF and he's a dedicated pinhead. And a good sport on Pinside.
Albeit a bit irritating at times.

John prefers cases

#30137 2 years ago

Reminder 1: Today's the last day for bids on the in-force life insurance policies, if anybody wants to beat TurnerLogic's offer of ~1.25M or whatever it was. iceman44 said he'd share some details with us after bidding closes as well.

Reminder 2: Last day for objections to be filed (re: the sale of the policies to TurnerLogic) is next Monday 4/11. So again, if any of you former deeproot employees feel strongly about Turner going from mild mannered software guy to life insurance speculator overnight... now would be the time to voice those concerns to the counsel for the trustee in the bankruptcy case (Mr. Randall Pulman at [email protected]).

#30138 2 years ago
Quoted from vicjw66:

Seems ridiculous that all the engineers were focused on reinventing the wheel with a new cabinet design and that it took so much time to figure it out. While all the designs were neglected.
Mix in spending many hundreds of thousands on equipment the size of an apartment to do tasks that wouldn’t be required until the designs were complete and ready for mass production much later on. The ultimate putting the cart before the horse business model.

If they had had any manufacturing experience on board they would have known that every last little change, even small stuff, is usually months in the making. It’s why you often proceed forward with imperfect designs, not because you can’t fix them but the time, energy, and dollars involved to do so is prohibitive. They tried to reinvent everything. The outcome was predictable

#30139 2 years ago
Quoted from pinballlife:

Here is a quick video walk through of Deeproot as of noon on Wednesday, March 30th. I apologize for the vertical orientation.
At the one minute mark you will see Fire & Brimstone still in someone's office. As I understand it, there were two different iterations of this machine on the premises, but I can not speak as to the location of the other one.

“Pinball for the Masses”. AKA “non working prototypes for two people”.

31
#30140 2 years ago
Quoted from play_pinball:

So I wonder who scavenged the parts out of the Fire & Brimstone cabinet later on Wednesday or Thursday morning. Also looks like twazu's playfield was still there at the time of the above video.

The playfield has been located, thank you so much!!

#30141 2 years ago
Quoted from twazu:

The playfield has been located, thank you so much!!

Nice! Any chance they took the other mock up (but more importantly to me, the parts that were in the cabinet)?

#30142 2 years ago
Quoted from zaphX:It's always ugly when Pinside drops to personal attacks.

21160FC6-2542-4364-9EEC-960A051687E1.gif21160FC6-2542-4364-9EEC-960A051687E1.gif
#30143 2 years ago

Realized I missed a deeproot bankruptcy filing back in January (in my defense, there were 11 and nine of them began with the word "deeproot"). So here are the schedules for Deeproot Growth Runs Deep Fund, LLC, along with some highlights:

Screen Shot 2022-04-04 at 3.31.54 PM (resized).pngScreen Shot 2022-04-04 at 3.31.54 PM (resized).png

Same accounting malpractice claim from other filings. Just grabbing here for those who hand't previously seen.

Screen Shot 2022-04-04 at 3.32.00 PM (resized).pngScreen Shot 2022-04-04 at 3.32.00 PM (resized).png

I don't think it's a good sign when you don't know how much money one of your companies has invested in one of your other companies.

Screen Shot 2022-04-04 at 3.36.11 PM (resized).pngScreen Shot 2022-04-04 at 3.36.11 PM (resized).png

A big fat $0 in total assets. Hopefully this company has minimal—if any—liabilities.

Screen Shot 2022-04-04 at 3.37.59 PM (resized).pngScreen Shot 2022-04-04 at 3.37.59 PM (resized).png

Oof, $50m is a bit north of minimal. At least Robert has a close relationship with the creditor.

Screen Shot 2022-04-04 at 3.40.11 PM (resized).pngScreen Shot 2022-04-04 at 3.40.11 PM (resized).png

No revenue in three years (if not more)

Screen Shot 2022-04-04 at 3.41.09 PM (resized).pngScreen Shot 2022-04-04 at 3.41.09 PM (resized).png

Could really use that six bucks now.

Screen Shot 2022-04-04 at 3.42.32 PM (resized).pngScreen Shot 2022-04-04 at 3.42.32 PM (resized).png

But it's not all bad news: 0% owner of the operation, Robert doesn't have to worry about this one.

deeprootgrowth-modified-2022.01.13.pdfdeeprootgrowth-modified-2022.01.13.pdf

#30144 2 years ago
Quoted from pinballlife:

Here is a quick video walk through of Deeproot as of noon on Wednesday, March 30th. I apologize for the vertical orientation.

Thanks for posting it Terry!

That building is crazy big - it’s built for 200 employees, not 10.

Leasing a complex like that at such an early stage of your companies growth is the height of insanity.

You could do the work they’ve done in a small unit in an industrial park.

rd

#30145 2 years ago
Quoted from rotordave:

Thanks for posting it Terry!
That building is crazy big - it’s built for 200 employees, not 10.
Leasing a complex like that at an early stage of your companies growth is the height of insanity.
rd

And that walkthrough doesn’t do the size justice RD. There’s another building across the street.

Jaw dropping insanity seeing it person. The auditorium is my favorite waste of space, the exercise gym second.

10
#30146 2 years ago
Quoted from JStoltz:

Reminder 1: Today's the last day for bids on the in-force life insurance policies, if anybody wants to beat TurnerLogic's offer of ~1.25M or whatever it was. iceman44 said he'd share some details with us after bidding closes as well.
Reminder 2: Last day for objections to be filed (re: the sale of the policies to TurnerLogic) is next Monday 4/11. So again, if any of you former deeproot employees feel strongly about Turner going from mild mannered software guy to life insurance speculator overnight... now would be the time to voice those concerns to the counsel for the trustee in the bankruptcy case (Mr. Randall Pulman at [email protected]).

I went over to the Pulman law offices last Wednesday afternoon to take a look at the policies they had up for auction.

Signed an NDA pertaining to the individual details of the policies.

What you see in the court filings is basically it. There were several boxes of “lapsed” insurance policies and then the remaining 8 policies that were still “in force” and listed in the court filing.

The guys at Pulman did a really good detailed summary of the remaining policies based on the knowledge they had from the files and the information provided by Bobby’s lawyer. They aren’t insurance experts.

If you think understanding a Life Insurance contract is simple then you probably have never taken a peek at your own

One of the main difficulties is that the bankruptcy trustee was still in the process of transferring the ownership of the policies over to the trustee. Only one had just come over.

What’s the problem with that? The insurance company isn’t able to provide what is called an “in force illustration” so that you can gauge where the policies actually stand from a “guaranteed” and “non guaranteed” standpoint.

Universal life policies are based on “current assumption” values to determine what is projected to be due in the future.

Without that info, a bidder is in the dark.

Thus, I was told by my own Insurance Group experts, “don’t consider bidding on those policies without an IN FORCE illustration, PERIOD”. And a “durable power of attorney” to get medical updates after the fact. How weird is that!!!

The end result? On top of the fact that buying insurance policies on someone else’s life seems wrong/weird on its face, there just wasn’t enough time allowed to determine whether to make a reasonable bid or not.

Should they have waited until they received ownership of the policies and gotten the “in force” illustrations before closing the sale?

I think so but hey it’s their process that was agreed to and initiated by TUYO.

Did they/do they have access to additional information? Who knows? Either way, without the illustrations IN FORCE, it was an absolute 100% NO GO for us based on advice from the experts.

What additional payments were made or not? All you had to go on was what his lawyer provided and the dated files

Maybe somebody came in with a late bid? Don’t know. I believe we were the only other prospect.

As for emailing the law firm or trustee, any challenge by April 11th I think would have to be made with a formal legal filing with the court.

At the end of the day, it could be a windfall OR they could be buying a pig in a poke. We know it has the Mueller stench on it so there you go.

If anyone is interested they will be selling the Promissory Note to the Car Wash as well.

#30147 2 years ago

This post should have been removed. Terrible.

#30148 2 years ago
Quoted from pinballlife:

Here is a quick video walk through of Deeproot as of noon on Wednesday, March 30th. I apologize for the vertical orientation.
At the one minute mark you will see Fire & Brimstone still in someone's office. As I understand it, there were two different iterations of this machine on the premises, but I can not speak as to the location of the other one.

Looks like someone took Bobby Mueller's law degree lol

#30149 2 years ago
Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:

“Pinball for the Masses”. AKA “non working prototypes for two people”.

it's funny because it's true!

#30150 2 years ago
Quoted from pinballlife:

Here is a quick video walk through of Deeproot as of noon on Wednesday, March 30th. I apologize for the vertical orientation.
At the one minute mark you will see Fire & Brimstone still in someone's office. As I understand it, there were two different iterations of this machine on the premises, but I can not speak as to the location of the other one.

Thanks for recording and posting this. Place is even more massive than I realized. Some white board and schematics frames that could be worth closer examination.

"Their one dock."

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