(Topic ID: 203700)

deeproot Pinball thread


By pin2d

1 year ago



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#2901 6 months ago

Deeproot, Deeproot, Deeproot!

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#2902 6 months ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

No matter what they charge, it comes down to EBIT and revenue per widget moved out of the building.
Just doing some simple math, at 750k a month going out, if they have operated at that burn rate for 6 months and will operate for 6 more months before steady revenue, that is 9 million dollars in the red.
If they make even a very generous 3k per machine they get out the door, that is 3000 games they have to sell to even recoup that cost, not counting the ongoing burn. With these numbers they have to ship 250 games a month to break even.
I think im being very generous with the 3k profit per machine too.
The math/business case on this is rough. I wonder when we will see a SaaS model in pinball.

SaaS? You mean PaaS. No relation to the easter egg coloring guys.

/LOL

#2903 6 months ago
Quoted from JodyG:

I'm guessing screen across the back of the playfield, under the glass.

God, let's hope not. I hate that on CV. Plus, given the basically full-width aspect ratio of the video, it would prevent a ton of stuff on the back of the playfield. No, let's let that CV experiment remain dead.

10
#2904 6 months ago

I’m a little hung over and sun-baked from a few days in Florida...

But ball tracking cameras instead of switches? What in God’s name are you people going on about?

Why not train hamsters to follow the ball and register switch hits? Sounds even more innovative!

#2905 6 months ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

It would be a problem. Also, where do you think the cameras would go? Cameras because they'd have to be below the playfield glass and therefore there'd need to be several of them. They couldn't go in the head and expect to have a useful view, and at that angle reflections would be terrible. A seperate external overplayfield mount would be rejected by locations and a lot of home buyers, and would still suffer with reflections.
Not just dark, but light too. LEDs are bright.
From just about every perspective it would be crazy to even try.

You don't need a camera to track a ball on a playfield. Anki Overdrive is an exemple on how recognizing placement of little cars on a track can be achieved. It's a commercial product, decently cheap (150$ for the complete starter set), and is fully performed locally.
Here some details on how they do that, they claim (but no way to verify) that each car check its position 500 times per second.
https://thenextweb.com/insider/2013/11/11/anki-drive-reveals-secret-track-technology-guides-ai-controlled-cars/

#2906 6 months ago
Quoted from adol75:

You don't need a camera to track a ball on a playfield. Anki Overdrive is an exemple on how recognizing placement of little cars on a track can be achieved. It's a commercial product, decently cheap (150$ for the complete starter set), and is fully performed locally.
Here some details on how they do that, they claim (but no way to verify) that each car check its position 500 times per second.
https://thenextweb.com/insider/2013/11/11/anki-drive-reveals-secret-track-technology-guides-ai-controlled-cars/

and completely useless for this kind of application. It is the inverse of what is needed in pinball. In pinball, the moving object is the stupid inert thing... not the smart thing moving over a fixed map.

The ball can't track itself... something has to locate it. IR grids and ultimately cameras are the most popular ways to detect position of a foreign object.

#2907 6 months ago
Quoted from adol75:

You don't need a camera to track a ball on a playfield. Anki Overdrive is an exemple on how recognizing placement of little cars on a track can be achieved. It's a commercial product, decently cheap (150$ for the complete starter set), and is fully performed locally.
Here some details on how they do that, they claim (but no way to verify) that each car check its position 500 times per second.
https://thenextweb.com/insider/2013/11/11/anki-drive-reveals-secret-track-technology-guides-ai-controlled-cars/

The car has the camera.

But infrared is a good keyword, since the human eye can't see it and most relflections don't matter because modern LED light doesn't shine in the infrared spectrum.
Let's just imagine you'd have cutouts where the switches would be (like the tracks in Anki) and one infrared illumination inside the cab. Programming knows where the "switches" are located. (Could do this with the given inserts also.) Camera tracks those.
Light falls trough = switch open
Light is blocked (because Ball rolls over) = switch is closed
No "AI motion tracking" needed at all. Kind of the same system a prehistoric lightgun shooter uses.
It's am opto with one emitter and one (computer controlled) recipient.
Could not replace all switches of course; depends on location.

Still not something i would patent since it is prone to failure but I'd still trail that thought.

(It would work better then Kinect... wich was a product brought to market TWO TIMES and failed! )

#2908 6 months ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

and completely useless for this kind of application. It is the inverse of what is needed in pinball. In pinball, the moving object is the stupid inert thing... not the smart thing moving over a fixed map.
The ball can't track itself... something has to locate it. IR grids and ultimately cameras are the most popular ways to detect position of a foreign object.

The ball is the same as the car, it's the moving object, and it's the one that has the IR camera. The difference on the ball is that it rolls, so it would need either a very reactive gyroscope or an array of IR lights, each on its own frequency most likely.

I am not saying this could replace the switches as I don't even think the switches are what needs to be replaced, but I am saying there are other methods than a camera to track a moving object in a closed environment.

#2909 6 months ago
Quoted from adol75:

You don't need a camera to track a ball on a playfield. Anki Overdrive is an exemple on how recognizing placement of little cars on a track can be achieved. It's a commercial product, decently cheap (150$ for the complete starter set), and is fully performed locally.
Here some details on how they do that, they claim (but no way to verify) that each car check its position 500 times per second.
https://thenextweb.com/insider/2013/11/11/anki-drive-reveals-secret-track-technology-guides-ai-controlled-cars/

Replacement of 4 balls (the equivalent of the cars) cost $1000

#2910 6 months ago
Quoted from adol75:

The ball is the same as the car, it's the moving object, and it's the one that has the IR camera. The difference on the ball is that it rolls, so it would need either a very reactive gyroscope or an array of IR lights, each on its own frequency most likely.
I am not saying this could replace the switches as I don't even think the switches are what needs to be replaced, but I am saying there are other methods than a camera to track a moving object in a closed environment.

You don't built a computer (with a camera) in an object exposed to high forces (and that's btw. not transparent). XD

#2911 6 months ago

But honest question:
If you had the chance to built a competitive company to Stern and underprice their Pro model lineup without watering down the experience, where do you see potential to re-invent something to cut down development and/ or manufacturing cost?

You start with (only) one advantage.
You're able to start with a blank slate instead of homogenously add/ change things in the existing process like Stern does.
(Like stamping the playfields with the Hanafin (?) machine.) If you don't use this advantage and try to imitate the competitors process you propably won't beat them in their own field. And you can win a lot by optimizing the production process, as Toyota showed when re-inventing their manufacturing process, wich is now copied by every car manufacturer around the world.

#2912 6 months ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

Let's just imagine you'd have cutouts where the switches would be (like the tracks in Anki) and one infrared illumination inside the cab. Programming knows where the "switches" are located. (Could do this with the given inserts also.) Camera tracks those.
Light falls trough = switch open
Light is blocked (because Ball rolls over) = switch is closed

Sounds like a great idea! Would still need to power the individual IR transmitters but they would just be on 100% or better, pulsed to conserve power. No more (or greatly reduced) wiring the playfield into a switch matrix.

#2913 6 months ago
Quoted from Jvspin:

Sounds like a great idea! Would still need to power the individual IR transmitters but they would just be on 100% or better, pulsed to conserve power. No more (or greatly reduced) wiring the playfield into a switch matrix.

"ONE infrared illumination inside the cab"

No multiple transmitters needed. Only one.

But yes. Even if they were lit seperately you could tie them into the GI and won't need a switch matrix.

#2914 6 months ago
Quoted from Jvspin:

Sounds like a great idea! Would still need to power the individual IR transmitters but they would just be on 100% or better, pulsed to conserve power. No more (or greatly reduced) wiring the playfield into a switch matrix.

Induction charging in the ball through. Just added 20$ to the cost of a ball !

#2915 6 months ago
Quoted from pin2d:

Anyone recognize the voiceover?

Jeff Teolis with effects added

#2916 6 months ago

What if a sensor-equipped ball like that were lighter weight: it might not (or perhaps should not) need to be steel. Heavy steel balls are used to trigger durable physical mechanisms.

But a sensor ball could be lighter, and could achieve similar gameplay speeds with lower-power coils. Interactive mechs wouldn't need to be built as indestructible, saving costs and wear and tear - even dirt from coil mechs. Reactive mechs could be triggered by sensed proximity instead of a physical switch; losing all the switch cutouts and space constraints might free more real estate for other uses (screens, lights, ramps, or other mechs...)

It's a lot of conceptual thinking and R&D upfront, but not fictional impossibility. Taken in sum, these concepts would certainly reinvent the game of pinball as it's come to be known, while being similar enough to appeal to traditionalists.

#2917 6 months ago
Quoted from rgb635:

Jeff Teolis with effects added

To me it sounds like the Bending Sports Arena Guy in Legend of Korra.

(Boy I'd love for a pinball company to sail a bit outside their known waters. Like Gottlieb tried with Mario & Street Fighter...)

10
#2918 6 months ago

"Modern" pinball machines are laughably primitive compared to most other things.

If a large tech driven company bothered to do anything in the realm of Pinball they would squash every company like an elephant on an ant.

#2919 6 months ago
Quoted from benheck:

Since they're in Salt Lake City my guess is Robert hired people laid off when Disney closed Avalanche Software (makers of Disney Infinity the Skylanders clone)
As for ball tracking it could be done with ASICs (application specific integrated circuits) your modern car is loaded with this stuff. And yes, for any other industry they'd say "a $20 camera is cheaper than 20 $3 switches"
The "problems" of Pinball are minor and could be solved by any sufficiently large company in a heartbeat.

There’s a lot of talented people in Utah. He does have some folks that have worked at Disney. It’s a mini Silicon Valley, with all the tech companies that have either started in or moved to Utah.

#2920 6 months ago
Quoted from benheck:

"Modern" pinball machines are laughably primitive compared to most other things.
If a large tech driven company bothered to do anything in the realm of Pinball they would squash every company like an elephant on an ant.

That's very true. I think about it every time I lift my WOZ playfield up, it has pretty much the same ingredients as my STTNG from 20 years ago

#2921 6 months ago
Quoted from goingincirclez:

What if a sensor-equipped ball like that were lighter weight: it might not (or perhaps should not) need to be steel. Heavy steel balls are used to trigger durable physical mechanisms.
But a sensor ball could be lighter, and could achieve similar gameplay speeds with lower-power coils. Interactive mechs wouldn't need to be built as indestructible, saving costs and wear and tear - even dirt from coil mechs. Reactive mechs could be triggered by sensed proximity instead of a physical switch; losing all the switch cutouts and space constraints might free more real estate for other uses (screens, lights, ramps, or other mechs...)
It's a lot of conceptual thinking and R&D upfront, but not fictional impossibility. Taken in sum, these concepts would certainly reinvent the game of pinball as it's come to be known, while being similar enough to appeal to traditionalists.

You don't build electronics into something that is constantly abused unless you have to. And NASA doesn't use off the shelf components or assembling techniques, you need to be certified for every poop you dump.

#2922 6 months ago

Jeri Ellsworth could make a ball-tracking ASIC in her sleep.

#2923 6 months ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

You don't build electronics into something that is constantly abused unless you have to

Agreed... but my point was that the "abuse" we're so used to in pinball is because of one thing: the ball. Literally everything else in the machine is scaled around the size and weight of that steel ball: from object dimensions, to the force required to impart energy to it, to the damage it imparts at speed.

If the ball itself were substantially different, the other aspects - including the "abuse" generated - should change accordingly.

Think like Stewie or Munsters mini-pinball, but full-sized with a lighter ball. How heavy-duty would everything need to be? The cabinet needs to hold up to the monkeys mashing the buttons and pounding the glass, but maybe the insides can be made lighter duty with less wiring, but still hold up. Would make Stern happy for that alone. And maybe a "sensor ball" avails new possibilities too.

Just thinking outside the box, er, cabinet...

#2924 6 months ago
Quoted from benheck:

Jeri Ellsworth could make a ball-tracking ASIC in her sleep.

man i would love to see her get back into homebrew. maybe you two can join forces?

#2925 6 months ago
Quoted from benheck:

If a large tech driven company bothered to do anything in the realm of Pinball they would squash every company like an elephant on an ant.

If they bring games to market that people want to play and buy.

History has shown that leaps in technology/product aren't always successful. Quadraphonic didn't set the world on fire 30 years ago. The Edsel wasn't popular. Apple's Newton Message Pad.

LTG : )

#2926 6 months ago
Quoted from benheck:

"Modern" pinball machines are laughably primitive compared to most other things.
If a large tech driven company bothered to do anything in the realm of Pinball they would squash every company like an elephant on an ant.

If it were modernized they might attract a new audience, but do you think the current audience would follow?

12
#2927 6 months ago
Quoted from lpeters82:

If it were modernized they might attract a new audience, but do you think the current audience would follow?

Someone *could* re-invent pinball, to be popular with a new generation today but I guarantee one thing... no one here would like it.

11
#2928 6 months ago
Quoted from lpeters82:

If it were modernized they might attract a new audience, but do you think the current audience would follow?

Possibly not, they might get "triggered" by surface mount components and serial... anything.

#2929 6 months ago
Quoted from benheck:

Possibly not, they might get "triggered" by surface mount components and serial... anything.

Or a cartoon monkey touching someone's butt.

#2930 6 months ago
Quoted from goingincirclez:

Agreed... but my point was that the "abuse" we're so used to in pinball is because of one thing: the ball. Literally everything else in the machine is scaled around the size and weight of that steel ball: from object dimensions, to the force required to impart energy to it, to the damage it imparts at speed.
If the ball itself were substantially different, the other aspects - including the "abuse" generated - should change accordingly.
Think like Stewie or Munsters mini-pinball, but full-sized with a lighter ball. How heavy-duty would everything need to be? The cabinet needs to hold up to the monkeys mashing the buttons and pounding the glass, but maybe the insides can be made lighter duty with less wiring, but still hold up. Would make Stern happy for that alone. And maybe a "sensor ball" avails new possibilities too.
Just thinking outside the box, er, cabinet...

Not sure if that wouldn't change the feel of the game too much.

But if you make the ball out of rubber you could open up a lot of the shots because you won't need rubbered posts anymore.

#2931 6 months ago
Quoted from TheBEAVR:

Or a cartoon monkey touching someone's butt.

I think the makers of that pinball were more offended at the monkey touching someone's butt than any customer that saw it.

#2932 6 months ago

My apologies for the delay, but I was the one who posted the Deep Root thing on Arcade Heroes. It was unfortunate that I missed the first panel that was supposed to be all focused on pinball, but it turned out that they held a second panel on Saturday. That one was called "The World of Animation" and it featured some of the same people from the pinball panel, but this one had one or two people who were with Deep Root and were not on the first panel.

The background for everyone is either video game art & design or film animation. There were some very impressive credits thrown around - Adam Sidwell, who was leading the panel had done stuff on I, Robot, King Kong, Pacific Rim, Tron:Legacy and some other films; a guy sitting next to him by the name of Moroni had done a lot of stuff on Iron Giant, the Ice Age films and others; another who had done the chasm effect on Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2 (can't remember his name, sorry), and so on.

They remained coy about what they are doing for pinball, although I was able to ask a question about who it was that was backing them and why so many people with this range of experience would be drawn to Deep Root in general, but they weren't able to get into a lot of detail there either.

So, it sucks that they aren't saying much still, but they do have some real talent behind them. As I operate an arcade locally, and they hold frequent "field trips" to explore local pinball hangouts, they said they would love to drop by and check out my collection. Perhaps when they do, I'll be able to find out more (or convince them to let me do a location test on their first game )

#2933 6 months ago
Quoted from arcadehero:

...I was able to ask a question about who it was that was backing them...

So that was you... good thing I prepared them.

—Robert dT

#2934 6 months ago
Quoted from deeproot:

So that was you... good thing I prepared them.
—Robert dT

Since you are here, I'll throw my bet in !

I doubt you have 40 animators to just work on backbox animation, so my bet is that you are working on a hybrid pinball a la Multimorphic P3, but have designed a way to swap a whole playfield that comes on top of the screen instead of a swappable portion of the playfield.

I don't expect an answer, I'm just throwing it here !

#2935 6 months ago
Quoted from deeproot:

So that was you... good thing I prepared them.
—Robert dT

I wanted to ask more, but time was limited and the panel wasn't about pinball per say, so I held my peace

#2936 6 months ago
Quoted from arcadehero:

I wanted to ask more, but time was limited and the panel wasn't about pinball per say, so I held my peace

Hehe. I was sitting and standing right next to you. You could have just asked me

Best,

—Robert dT

PS adol75: I’ve already answered that on 2 podcasts

#2937 6 months ago
Quoted from deeproot:

Hehe. I was sitting and standing right next to you. You could have just asked me
Best,
—Robert dT
PS adol75: I’ve already answered that on 2 podcasts

Haha, I had no idea. Oh well. How many other people from DR were in the room?

#2938 6 months ago
Quoted from deeproot:

...
—Robert dT
PS adol75: I’ve already answered that on 2 podcasts

God forbid that you anwser a 3rd time for those of us that don't listen to podcasts. But I do wish you success in your endeavors.

#2939 6 months ago

I didn’t know real Germans actually used the word ‘schadenfreude’ until your post lol

On topic ... I thought DR was more than a pinball company, so all those animators and electrical engineers could be working as sub-contractors on any number of projects. And their role may never really be known except to those in the relevant industry. And that work pays the bills (plus 30%, I bet).

They might’ve done the raza video for practice or for sh!ts and giggles.

#2940 6 months ago

adol75

Quoted from KoolFingers:God forbid that you anwser a 3rd time for those of us that don't listen to podcasts. But I do wish you success in your endeavors.

It really was answered answered every time ever this comes up.
TWIP itself wrote long ago it looks like classic pinball. If I remember correctly he said the backbox differed.

So adol75 if not everyone was telling the same lie you're 100% wrong.

#2941 6 months ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

adol75

It really was answered answered every time ever this comes up.
TWIP itself wrote long ago it looks like classic pinball. If I remember correctly he said the backbox differed.
So adol75 if not everyone was telling the same lie you're 100% wrong.

Then I don't see the point of having 40 animators on the job, but I guess time will tell. Really wishing them the best on their endeavour, but speculating on the little information we are given is still fun to do !

#2942 6 months ago
Quoted from adol75:

Then I don't see the point of having 40 animators on the job, but I guess time will tell. Really wishing them the best on their endeavour, but speculating on the little information we are given is still fun to do !

I explained that earlier today, while I'm not sure that was actually confirmed. Dumbed down I'd translate that statement into 'they have access to 40 animators' because of their other endeavours, not 40 animators working in-house, full time.

I like speculating too.

More the manufacturing side for the moment, since this is a really interresting situation.
Pinball machines are pretty much built like they were for decades, with only slight, gradual improvements.
So you could try to reinvent the wheel and gain an upper hand against the competition, but pinball sales are still a tiny market, so you can't invest too much in R&D.

-5
#2943 6 months ago

Ya'll are a bunch of lemmings. Look a shiny new video. Woah, take my money. .....idiot's, there is no physical product yet, just a video. This is a page right out of the jpop playbook.

If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull$#!+....

14
#2944 6 months ago

Huh I haven’t sent any money. Anyone sent money yet?

#2945 6 months ago
Quoted from deeproot:

Hehe. I was sitting and standing right next to you. You could have just asked me
Best,
—Robert dT
PS adol75: I’ve already answered that on 2 podcasts

I am pulling for you guys man

#2946 6 months ago
Quoted from Drewscruis:

Ya'll are a bunch of lemmings. Look a shiny new video. Woah, take my money. .....idiot's, there is no physical product yet, just a video. This is a page right out of the jpop playbook.
If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull$#!+....

Greetings average pinsider!

Who exactly is that lemming that yelled "shut up and take my money" and whom can he give it to?

#2947 6 months ago
Quoted from benheck:

"Modern" pinball machines are laughably primitive compared to most other things.
If a large tech driven company bothered to do anything in the realm of Pinball they would squash every company like an elephant on an ant.

Don’t you think they’d just do something else besides fuck around with primitive pinball machines?

#2948 6 months ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Don’t you think they’d just do something else besides fuck around with primitive pinball machines?

There is no big market. But high profit margins and only one real competitor...

-7
#2949 6 months ago
Quoted from deeproot:

Hehe. I was sitting and standing right next to you. You could have just asked me
Best,
—Robert dT
PS adol75: I’ve already answered that on 2 podcasts

When will you get smart and fire Jpop?

#2950 6 months ago
Quoted from adol75:

The ball is the same as the car, it's the moving object, and it's the one that has the IR camera. The difference on the ball is that it rolls, so it would need either a very reactive gyroscope or an array of IR lights, each on its own frequency most likely

You should re-read yourself afterwards to understand just how ridiculous this is.

Is the ball also going to be transparent? Because it would need to be as it rolls so your cameras will have to see out every possible portion of the ball as the ball surface rolls past. And then we should talk about how you are going to fit all this in that space... and make it reliable as it goes through crazy G forces and impulses.. and must all fit in the size of a pinball.. and play like a pinball.

Oh and it needs to be powered... so we'll need a battery.. and a charging system...

etc etc etc.

DOA dude

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