It's something, kind of nothing, but it's something.
(Topic ID: 203700)
Linked Games
Alice in Wonderland
Zidware Pinball USA, 2013-
Celts
Haggis, 2021
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Magic Girl
Zidware Pinball USA, 2017
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Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland
Zidware Pinball USA, 2012
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Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland (Arcade Edition)
Deeproot, 2020
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Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland (Xtra Edition)
Deeproot, 2020
Topic Gallery
Decatur, IN
Quoted from dnapac:If pinroot is what that says to be...it will be the end of all the old refurbs...not worth the money. All the old will be lost due to cost. The new...Stern, JJP, Spooky, etc, will loose cost. A collapse of an industry, and a reinvention at the same moment.
Some people said similar things when JJP came on the scene... giant LCD, full color LED lighting, etc were obviously huge improvements for the industry. But the industry didn’t collapse... quite the contrary, it’s now stronger than it has been in a long time.
Quoted from kdecgp:Is a backbox even necessary anymore?
It hasn't been "necessary" since solid state was introduced (atari put scoring in the apron). The backbox serves as an attention grabber on route, same way slots have LCD's on top with flashy graphics. One could argue you could have a home version that eliminates the backbox (only install a backbox for routing), but is that too much of a customization?
Also does that change the shape of a pinball too drastically?
Google Zingy Bingy, you'll see how weird a game without a backbox looks (not going to post here for obvious reasons)
Quoted from toyotaboy:Google Zingy Bingy, you'll see how weird a game without a backbox looks (not going to post here for obvious reasons)
Backbox for Zingy Bingy is missing. No idea where. It definitely had one. Capcom art department spent $30K on two figures for it.
LTG : )
Quoted from kdecgp:Is a backbox even necessary anymore?
I was thinking the exact opposite, what’s the point in putting the screen behind the playfield when there is plenty of space in the backbox ?
Unless they go for some backbox thing like CV or BR.
Quoted from toyotaboy:Google Zingy Bingy, you'll see how weird a game without a backbox looks (not going to post here for obvious reasons)
I just googled it, I think no backbox is the least weird thing on that machine !
But I do think the lock hole of BOP would have fit perfectly on that one !
Quoted from toyotaboy:Google Zingy Bingy, you'll see how weird a game without a backbox looks
I'm sorry. I should have added that the existing pictures of Zingy Bingy clearly show what a pinball machine looks like without a backbox.
No pictures exist of it's backbox.
LTG : )
Quoted from John_I:The production value is miles ahead of anything JJP or Stern has done
And it’s also nothing like the other teams have set out to do. So I don’t really get all the comparisons.
It’s a quick short... it’s completely incompatible with what is needed in a game in the formats we have now. People don’t want to stop for 5 seconds... let alone to hear some long drawn out monologue.
It’s apples and oranges.
Düsseldorf
Quoted from adol75:I was thinking the exact opposite, what’s the point in putting the screen behind the playfield when there is plenty of space in the backbox ?
Unless they go for some backbox thing like CV or BR.
It's where you can actually see that AND, if replacing the backboard, it could add a whole lot to the game.
The whole Black Knight SoR Fire panel in the back wouldn't have to be engineered if it was for an LCD back there. Plus you could actually show us how we're nearing the castle and fighting the monsters.
Quoted from kdecgp:Is a backbox even necessary anymore?
Funny as I was going to say this as well as thete is no display. You simply hook it up to your 36" led hyper thin screen.
The "point of the backbox" is not neccessarily to hold your DMD/ LCD anymore, it's there to gain your interrest and attract players.
In this regard, something like Stern does, with a still pretty big translite/ backglass and explanations how to start a game on the LCD is a pretty safe bet.
JJPs Backglass is pretty tiny, so the LCD does that job. If placed in a mixed lineup they sure stand out, but if lined up in a row that sure is some information overflow... 
And from that point of view it's understandable why you don't mind AP LCD work when playing, but may be not feel attracted when looking.
Unknown
Quoted from kdecgp:Is a backbox even necessary anymore?
If I'm not mistaken, Gerry Stellenberg tried to get rid of the backbox with multimorphic games, but people didn't like it, so a backbox was made for those games.
People thought it didn't look right.
Right now I'm still very skeptical of this company and think some of what's been said is hot air until a product is produced. The TWIP interview from a while back where deeproot mentions that COGS (costs of goods and services) on Hobbit is $6,750.00 and how they could do it to for less then half the cost using their "standard" was interesting to read. What would the deeproot standard be? No drop target banks, no moving or as detailed Smaug toy, an inferior cabinet, a 1/4 the amount of code (rules, animations, music), no 27" LCD, inferior quality mechs, etc? Ok, I can see COGS being half then. It's a lot easier to make such claims when a product has yet to be designed, parts ordered, no code work has been done, and games haven't been run on an assembly line.
"This game would cost $2k to make"
pirates-of-the-caribbean-pinball-machine (resized).jpg
In reality it would look like this...
No matter what they charge, it comes down to EBIT and revenue per widget moved out of the building.
Just doing some simple math, at 750k a month going out, if they have operated at that burn rate for 6 months and will operate for 6 more months before steady revenue, that is 9 million dollars in the red.
If they make even a very generous 3k per machine they get out the door, that is 3000 games they have to sell to even recoup that cost, not counting the ongoing burn. With these numbers they have to ship 250 games a month to break even.
I think im being very generous with the 3k profit per machine too.
The math/business case on this is rough. I wonder when we will see a SaaS model in pinball.
Quoted from PanzerFreak:"This game would cost $2k to make"
[quoted image]
In reality it would look like this...
[quoted image]
First off you have to think outside of the box when it comes to driving the cost down.
Example: Track the Ball with a camera, therefore get rid of a lot of switches, use less wiring, less nodeboards etc. and maybe get the thing to work with a common & cheap Raspberry Pi without too much addons because you can use less connections.
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:No matter what they charge, it comes down to EBIT and revenue per widget moved out of the building.
Just doing some simple math, at 750k a month going out, if they have operated at that burn rate for 6 months and will operate for 6 more months before steady revenue, that is 9 million dollars in the red.
If they make even a very generous 3k per machine they get out the door, that is 3000 games they have to sell to even recoup that cost, not counting the ongoing burn. With these numbers they have to ship 250 games a month to break even.
I think im being very generous with the 3k profit per machine too.
The math/business case on this is rough. I wonder when we will see a SaaS model in pinball.
Break-even for most endeavours is at around 7 years. (How long is JJP on the market now?)
So make that a max. 1000$ margin and it's still looking good.
And if you don't have the resources to survive that investment in the long haul you better shouldn't even try.
I need Deeproot to pull through soon and release a game. They could miss the boat and release the first game in 2020 during a global recession.
Cool promo, but if they really have 40 animators working on stuff full time, their cash burn has to be way, way more than $1M a month by now.
They're going to have to sell a lot of games ...
Also, I think we can surmise from this trailer that they're probably sticking with a traditional super wide aspect DMD style monitor. Unless this is a crop and a bait. Not sure that's a brilliant choice either cost wise or presentation wise.
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:No matter what they charge, it comes down to EBIT and revenue per widget moved out of the building.
Just doing some simple math, at 750k a month going out, if they have operated at that burn rate for 6 months and will operate for 6 more months before steady revenue, that is 9 million dollars in the red.
If they make even a very generous 3k per machine they get out the door, that is 3000 games they have to sell to even recoup that cost, not counting the ongoing burn. With these numbers they have to ship 250 games a month to break even.
I think im being very generous with the 3k profit per machine too.
The math/business case on this is rough. I wonder when we will see a SaaS model in pinball.
Agree, The math for this doesn't add up.
The $750k quote was from December. Robert also said it will ramp up as they get to launch.
That's $3,750,000 just counting December to April. Yikes.
I'm sure there's a ton of cool stuff in the halls from all that cash, but no products rolling out the door.
And do all these staff just go home after? They seem like permanent hires, so this cash burn at this intensity will only go up.
Quoted from rubberducks:Cool promo, but if they really have 40 animators working on stuff full time, their cash burn has to be way, way more than $1M a month by now.
They could be outsourcing the animation to overseas studios. Might save them up to 80% of the cost of having domestic animators.
even so, 40 animators is insane. You can't just drive to the Blicks parking lot and pick up animation day laborers and toss them at a project. When you have 40 animators, you need a team of something like 6 or more art directors, and then of course project managers funneling this work into a pipeline, reviewing and making changes, etc. I've worked at design agencies with > 100 employees whose job was to produce commercial art for clients events like trade shows, etc. At no point did we have 40 designers or animators or video people. You need people to manage and coordinate that level of staffing, so if you have 40 animators your total firm should probably be at least 120 total employees. My guess is for a company like Stern, they have 10 graphic designers / animators on staff full time. Stern puts out what 4 games a year? (double checking, linkedin shows 11 people with art/graphics job titles, although one seems like an intern. and Jeremy Packer is a contract artist from what I understand not a full time employee).
All this and let's face it, a lack of animation has never been the reason a pin hasn't shipped. (Remember the original game of thrones video mode graphics )
Quoted from Richthofen:They could be outsourcing the animation to overseas studios. Might save them up to 80% of the cost of having domestic animators.
even so, 40 animators is insane. You can't just drive to the Blicks parking lot and pick up animation day laborers and toss them at a project. When you have 40 animators, you need a team of something like 6 or more art directors, and then of course project managers funneling this work into a pipeline, reviewing and making changes, etc. I've worked at design agencies with > 100 employees whose job was to produce commercial art for clients events like trade shows, etc. At no point did we have 40 designers or animators or video people. You need people to manage and coordinate that level of staffing, so if you have 40 animators your total firm should probably be at least 120 total employees. My guess is for a company like Stern, they have 10 graphic designers / animators on staff full time. Stern puts out what 4 games a year? (double checking, linkedin shows 11 people with art/graphics job titles, although one seems like an intern. and Jeremy Packer is a contract artist from what I understand not a full time employee).
All this and let's face it, a lack of animation has never been the reason a pin hasn't shipped. (Remember the original game of thrones video mode graphics )
I think the animators and coders are supposed to be in Mormon country, and it is apparently an external studio. So setup cost would be less, but having 40 of them working full time on your projects would still be obscenely expensive.
Quoted from Richthofen:They could be outsourcing the animation to overseas studios. Might save them up to 80% of the cost of having domestic animators.
even so, 40 animators is insane. You can't just drive to the Blicks parking lot and pick up animation day laborers and toss them at a project. When you have 40 animators, you need a team of something like 6 or more art directors, and then of course project managers funneling this work into a pipeline, reviewing and making changes, etc. I've worked at design agencies with > 100 employees whose job was to produce commercial art for clients events like trade shows, etc. At no point did we have 40 designers or animators or video people. You need people to manage and coordinate that level of staffing, so if you have 40 animators your total firm should probably be at least 120 total employees. My guess is for a company like Stern, they have 10 graphic designers / animators on staff full time. Stern puts out what 4 games a year? (double checking, linkedin shows 11 people with art/graphics job titles, although one seems like an intern. and Jeremy Packer is a contract artist from what I understand not a full time employee).
All this and let's face it, a lack of animation has never been the reason a pin hasn't shipped. (Remember the original game of thrones video mode graphics )
The "40 animators" don't sit at Deeproot Pinball 24/7 working on pinball games but in another (video game related) Deeproot subsidiary wich they have access to.
I don't get why people have to rethink the companys (investment) structure?
Trailer looks very nice, if the games live up to that: Great!
If nothing comes out of this: Bummer.
How they make it: I don't care.
2z93z7 (resized).jpgQuoted from DS_Nadine:I don't get why people have to rethink the companys (investment) structure?
Because several pinball companies / startups have failed.
Because deeproot hired one of the chief architects of a major failure
because deeproot has said "pinball is easy", then failed to deliver on their TPF 5 days of deeproot
Quoted from DS_Nadine:The "40 animators" don't sit at Deeproot Pinball 24/7 working on pinball games but in another (video game related) Deeproot subsidiary wich they have access to.
It's interesting that the video never said "pinball." Perhaps their properties will span a number of formats? RAZA: the video game! RAZA: the pinball! RAZA: the animated series! RAZA: the lunchbox! RAZA: the flamethrower! [that last in conjunction with Elon Musk...]
[It has been pointed out to me that the very first 2 seconds of the video say "Deeproot Pinball." Mea culpa!]
Quoted from Richthofen:Because several pinball companies / startups have failed.
Because deeproot hired one of the chief architects of a major failure
because deeproot has said "pinball is easy", then failed to deliver on their TPF 5 days of deeproot
These "companies" were Single-Person startups with no own budget to speak of (wich is why they had to collect money in advance) wich were pretty much doomed to fail from the start. (And yet there's still more positive thinking in the Alien & TBL Thread then here.)
They hired JPop, a guy with no salesmanship whatsoever that dug his grave even deeper announcing more & more machines to keep getting money so that the biggest fool could get that he is a fraud, but he still was showered with money because people want his games.
(And here is a company standing completely on their own feet delivering these, getting shat on for this.)
And for the 5 days of deeproot... granted us a little bit of schadenfreude.
Can't argue against those bold statements. Reading those announcement why they won't make it to TPF reads skills shortage in assembly, wich is quite typical.
Quoted from Seraph:It's interesting that the video never said "pinball."
You should watch that again. 
Quoted from DS_Nadine:First off you have to think outside of the box when it comes to driving the cost down.
Example: Track the Ball with a camera, therefore get rid of a lot of switches, use less wiring, less nodeboards etc
OK - so there goes your 7 years and millions and millions of dollars for R&D, proto-typing and testing this to get it somewhat reliable. What about multiballs? Fast Moving balls? Subways? VUKs? To save $200 per machine in physical switches? Hey, I'm sure that technology could be dialed in, but it would be a huge front loaded and time soaking dev cost.
Quoted from zeddex:OK - so there goes your 7 years and millions and millions of dollars for R&D, proto-typing and testing this to get it somewhat reliable. What about multiballs? Fast Moving balls? Subways? VUKs? To save $200 per machine in physical switches? Hey, I'm sure that technology could be dialed in, but it would be a huge front loaded and time soaking dev cost.
As you say yoursef you couldn't replace them entirely (I don't think you save close 200$ either, even if you count in the whole assembly) and the whole thing as well is just an example.
But developing this -one time- can save a lot of money -every time- and DeepRoot has the capital to the development costs (to a certain degree of course).
On the other end look at JJP. - They needed a solution to drive their machines and enough power to drive that big LCD.
They saved a lot of development cost buy 'just using' a common PC, instead of developing their own "Spike System" but they pay for that with every machine they ship.
Quoted from frolic:The $750k quote was from December. Robert also said it will ramp up as they get to launch.
That's $3,750,000 just counting December to April. Yikes.
I'm sure there's a ton of cool stuff in the halls from all that cash, but no products rolling out the door.
And do all these staff just go home after? They seem like permanent hires, so this cash burn at this intensity will only go up.
and they still havent setup manufacturing. even if you farm that out, no 3rd party is going to build production fixtures for free.
Tracking the ball with a camera would just mean horrible latency, even if it worked 'perfectly' otherwise - which it certainly wouldn't.
Hopefully JPop won't read this as it'll give him money wasting ideas.
I don't want to sound like "K" with "I'm a marketing guy, I'm a marketing Guy" but:
I worked as senior automotive consultant in developing and setting up/ optimizing manufacturing processes locally and overseas.
I might be totally wrong about everything that goes on with Deeproot, because I have as less clue as you what they're doing.
But I do know a little bit of what I am talking about.
And while I think many of those "rethinking" pinball (manufacturing) processes will lead to a dead end you will stumble over stuff that noone knows anymore why it is done the way it is and will get completely overhauled.
The "recession" mentioned above could actually help them, if machines get to be significantly cheaper then a Stern Pro.
Or in other terms: A recession is the best time to invest! (Wich is my sole opinion.)
Quoted from rubberducks:Tracking the ball with a camera would just mean horrible latency, even if it worked 'perfectly' otherwise - which it certainly wouldn't.
Hopefully JPop won't read this as it'll give him money wasting ideas.
Where would that horrible latency come from?
JPop is not in technical development.
Edit:
The camera does not send it's picture over the internet, there's no TV Output lag and it doesn't need to interpret a motion like Microsoft Kinect does.
In a Videogame the game can only interpret your command AFTER your movement is completely finished. Then the program does it's job and due to buffering and post processing of the TV itself you a have a noticeable lag.
In the "replacing switches" examples it is:
If Ball = PositionX { execute command }
It doesn't matter where the ball came from, wich ball (multiball) it was, it may start just working like normal pinball machine.
THERE IS a lot of other problems though, wich makes my idea not feasible.
But again, it is just meant as an example.
Quoted from DS_Nadine:You should watch that again.
Ah, man, I'd missed the first 2 seconds of the video! Now I have to retract my joke. 
Quoted from DS_Nadine:Where would that horrible latency come from?
JPop is not in technical development.
From processing time. Also, for multiball you'd likely need an AI based solution with an expensive accellerator such as those sold by NVIDIA or AMD. The notion that this would save money and time is patently ridiculous.
Shouldn't be, not isn't. You may have missed the Expo panel where JPop said the guy who used to do the engineering and technical stuff on his games at WMS was the best, but unfortunately he'd died, so he was doing all of that himself this time. Nobody corrected or contradicted him. Almost certainly delusion and hyperbole, but if he wasn't involved at all I doubt Mueller or the others wouldn't have said something. Also, if you've seen some of his patents and generally crap ideas over the years, he's very keen on trying to reinvent the wheel, even if he sucks at it.
Quoted from rubberducks:From processing time. Also, for multiball you'd likely need an AI based solution with an expensive accellerator such as those sold by NVIDIA or AMD. The notion that this would save money and time is patently ridiculous.
Well, see above. Edited that in.
You're totally overthinking it, you don't need to track motion.
Main problems why this is not feasible would be: Traking when the machine goes dark, what if something obstruses the view, etc.
Quoted from DS_Nadine:Well, see above. Edited that in.
You're totally overthinking it.
Main problems why this is not feasible would be: Traking when the machine goes dark, what if something obstruses the view, etc.
It would be a problem. Also, where do you think the cameras would go? Cameras because they'd have to be below the playfield glass and therefore there'd need to be several of them. They couldn't go in the head and expect to have a useful view, and at that angle reflections would be terrible. A seperate external overplayfield mount would be rejected by locations and a lot of home buyers, and would still suffer with reflections.
Not just dark, but light too. LEDs are bright.
From just about every perspective it would be crazy to even try.
I think a screen in the back of the playfield could work well but only in conjunction with a screen in the back box , when playing multiball especially 5 or 6 balls I only look at the bottom third of the Playfield the screen would not be much help . At the moment I think J J P do LCD screens the best
Quoted from rubberducks:It would be a problem. Also, where do you think the cameras would go? Cameras because they'd have to be below the playfield glass and therefore there'd need to be several of them. They couldn't go in the head and expect to have a useful view, and at that angle reflections would be terrible. A seperate external overplayfield mount would be rejected by locations and a lot of home buyers, and would still suffer with reflections.
Not just dark, but light too. LEDs are bright.
From just about every perspective it would be crazy to even try.
Some of this stuff I allready answered explicitely.
There is no need to prove me wrong, because I don't say I'm right.
I myself wrote: "THERE IS a lot of other problems though, wich makes my idea not feasible."
But there is room for re-thinking.
Edit:
The "Tipper" in the cab (the patent they have) is showing that, altough this thing will propably never be built (too expensive for that rare usage).
If they do the backpanel of the game as an LCD that's interresting as well.
I myself like to see what they'll do to get the manufacturing cost down by "re-thinking".
They have amazing talent across the board in terms of design, music, art, animation, and rules. It's real pinball "enhanced." TWIP reported that during his factory tour, he could see that Deeproot was heavy on mechs and ball locks (something that stood out to him).
Manufacturing is the big question mark right now (the hardest part). A question mark to us, but not Deeproot.
I'd love to see another truly serious player in pinball that brings fresh ideas to the table. As a consumer, I am not concerned at all about the economics of it. Aside from maybe slightly decreased resale value of certain machines you own, this can only benefit us as buyers to have more buying options and competition.
Quoted from LTG:Backbox for Zingy Bingy is missing. No idea where. It definitely had one. Capcom art department spent $30K on two figures for it.
LTG : )
Quoted from LTG:I'm sorry. I should have added that the existing pictures of Zingy Bingy clearly show what a pinball machine looks like without a backbox.
No pictures exist of it's backbox.
LTG : )
I was thinking about these questions and statements on zingy bingy. I have seen zingy bingy but it was a while ago. Prior to my stroke and brain surgeries.
My question to the group, do we need comprehensive zingy bingy pictures that we do not have now?
If this is a benefit. I bet all we have to do is ask the owner. He is a great guy.
I don't remember all the details I think I have a good picture of some one else in front of Zb.
It was so odd I kind of ignored it. I played the wizard blocks at length instead.
Since they're in Salt Lake City my guess is Robert hired people laid off when Disney closed Avalanche Software (makers of Disney Infinity the Skylanders clone)
As for ball tracking it could be done with ASICs (application specific integrated circuits) your modern car is loaded with this stuff. And yes, for any other industry they'd say "a $20 camera is cheaper than 20 $3 switches"
The "problems" of Pinball are minor and could be solved by any sufficiently large company in a heartbeat.
Quoted from Rondogg:Not sure why people thought Python was losing his mind...
[quoted image]
Dude looks like Andy Samberg
Quoted from toyotaboy:dude, i said what i said for a reason. thanks for making this thread nsfw
If you’re so worried just drain that post.
Quoted from DS_Nadine:And here is a company standing completely on their own feet delivering these, getting shat on for this.
They haven't delivered any games yet. Hence the shat.
Once they do, the shat will decrease.
LTG : )
Quoted from toyotaboy:dude, i said what i said for a reason. thanks for making this thread nsfw
That's not nsfw, that's art.
Maybe FAILED art but art.
Quoted from LTG:They haven't delivered any games yet. Hence the shat.
Once they do, the shat will decrease.
LTG : )
I loled.
https://en.bab.la/conjugation/english/shit
Srsly, I thought it is "shit-shat-shitten".
Then I hope a decline of shittness is incoming!
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