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I got to read through the bankruptcy judge's most recent order regarding TuYo's stalking horse and other related motions. Part one of my notes:

stalking-bestinterest (resized).png

I don't believe any objections were filed (nor, consequently, overruled). This thing moved fast, so if anyone with raised eyebrows wants to raise objections before this thing is finalized, they'll need to do before the April 4 deadline. I also assume these objections will have carry the burden of needing to be more persuasive to the judge to affect a course change than had they been filed before the issuing of this order (note: just a guess about how courts work. I don't have any subject matter expertise in this area).

stalking-reasonable (resized).png

As I understand it, there were no prompts during last week's hearing for anyone other than the lawyers to speak. Perhaps it's a case of attendees needing to know their rights and the courtroom proceedings to unmute and interrupt the judge before the hearing concluded?

Screen Shot 2022-03-22 at 7.36.09 AM (resized).png

Parties really had to be on their toes to object to this thing before it went through. TuYo filed its 134-page motion and expediting hearing request on Tuesday, March 15. The judge granted the hearing request on Wednesday, March 16, scheduled it for Friday, March 18, and the hearing took place then. On the next day of court business—Monday, March 21—the judge issues this order allowing TuYo to proceed full speed ahead.

Screen Shot 2022-03-22 at 7.36.09 AM (resized).png

Judge dialed these figures back a bit from TuYo's proposed motion.

Screen Shot 2022-03-22 at 7.39.45 AM (resized).png

So the only chance TuYo doesn't get this stuff for $1.25m is if at least one other party submits a bid for at least $1.25m in less than two weeks.

Do we think anyone else out there has sufficient information regarding the assets to feel confident/comfortable about rolling those dice + the time to pull together the needed funds and agreements, and to comply with the various filing requirements by then?

Screen Shot 2022-03-22 at 7.37.21 AM (resized).png

Quoted from blueberryjohnson:
If anyone with raised eyebrows wants to raise objections before this thing is finalized, they'll need to do before the April 4 deadline. I also assume these objections will have carry the burden of needing to be more persuasive to the judge to affect a course change than had they been filed before the issuing of this order

I don't know that anyone other than former DR employees with knowledge of Turner's (alleged) custom policy database administration would be in a position to object effectively... The only objectionable thing I'm seeing is (maybe) TuYo's manipulation of the sales approval process by not properly disclosing (alleged) prior knowledge of the policies.

Part of me wants to file an objection via email to Pulman (based on cobbled together hearsay from this thread and a general "hey maybe look a little closer at this guy plz" vibe) but I also don't want to spoil the chances of someone with a more compelling objection (former employees with better intel) to succeed.

So what, they give geezers a cash buyout of their life insurance? For obviously far less than it's worth. Then pay the premiums and hope the person dies as soon as possible?

Sounds like the Twilight Zone episode with the button box.

Quoted from benheck:
So what, they give geezers a cash buyout of their life insurance? For obviously far less than it's worth. Then pay the premiums and hope the person dies as soon as possible?
Sounds like the Twilight Zone episode with the button box.

that is EXACTLY how it works. It's like hedge funds that borrow shares and bet on the stock going down, then when it's at it's new price they pay for the share at a lower price and pocket the difference. In both cases, they are rooting for failure.

Quoted from toyotaboy:that is EXACTLY how it works. It's like hedge funds that borrow shares and bet on the stock going down, then when it's at it's new price they pay for the share at a lower price and pocket the difference. In both cases, they are rooting for failure.

Everything about Mueller and Deep Root just exudes class!

Quoted from benheck:
So what, they give geezers a cash buyout of their life insurance? For obviously far less than it's worth. Then pay the premiums and hope the person dies as soon as possible?
Sounds like the Twilight Zone episode with the button box.

It’s even worse when you go back and read Mueller’s emails about missed payroll and the way he refers to it as a revenue pipeline.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/twip-is-deeproot-the-next-misadventure-or-a-pinball-revolution/page/535#post-6585183

I think we figured out a while ago Robert was scummy and trying to profit on old people dying.

If more of them had simply died then Robert wouldn't be so fucked. It's their fault of course, not Robert's

Quoted from TreyBo69:
I think we figured out a while ago Robert was scummy and trying to profit on old people dying.
If more of them had simply died then Robert wouldn't be so fucked. It's their fault of course, not Robert's

So... the only company in pinball that should have benefited greatly (on paper) from COVID still failed...

Golf clap...

Quoted from JStoltz:
Part of me wants to file an objection via email to Pulman (based on cobbled together hearsay from this thread and a general "hey maybe look a little closer at this guy plz" vibe) but I also don't want to spoil the chances of someone with a more compelling objection (former employees with better intel) to succeed.

Do you think your reaching out about this would decrease the chances of success if others did? I'd assume the opposite (plus, I wouldn't assume anyone will reach out, so favor shying on the side of someone saying something if they think there is something to say).

Quoted from Mr68:
That's taking Hammer Tested to a whole different level.

Quoted from toyotaboy:
that is EXACTLY how it works. It's like hedge funds that borrow shares and bet on the stock going down, then when it's at it's new price they pay for the share at a lower price and pocket the difference. In both cases, they are rooting for failure.

Ah, kind of like how the credit card rewards we enjoy are paid for by poor people who can't pay down their interest fees!

Quoted from benheck:
Ah, kind of like how the credit card rewards we enjoy are paid for by poor people who can't pay down their interest fees!

I would suggest that most of the credit card rewards are paid for by the fees the merchant pays upon acceptance of the card. The higher the rewards level on the card, the higher the fees the merchant who accepts your card pays. The card companies make sure this is profitable on its own rather than worry about those individuals with credit cards with a balance paying interest. That interest is another profit stream for them separate from the rewards points stream.
The bigger your business, the better chance you have of negotiating better rates with your processing partner but you still pay a bigger % on higher reward cards.

Quoted from JMitchell147:
The higher the rewards level on the card, the higher the fees the merchant who accepts your card pays.

Not quite. If you have a mastercard with 1% cashback and another mastercard with 2% cashback, the merchant pays the same fees regardless of which card you use. There are differences between MC, VISA, Amex, etc. but not between different types of card within the same company.

Quoted from blueberryjohnson:
Do you think your reaching out about this would decrease the chances of success if others did? I'd assume the opposite (plus, I wouldn't assume anyone will reach out, so favor shying on the side of someone saying something if they think there is something to say).

I have no idea what to think.. It's such a niche process and I barely qualify as an idiot on a good day. I'm just leery of frustrating the trustee, the judge, or one of the trustee's lawyers by being a clueless peasant with a poor understanding of the process, sticking his nose in and complicating their jobs.

I also really don't want to become "involved" since the only grounds I (we) have for an objection are tenuous without evidence, being secondhand info from a from a former employee on a pinball forum. I'm anxious about what might happen if one of us submits an objection and it *is* taken seriously, does that mean we would have to remain involved until things are settled, identify ourselves by name, etc? As interesting as this whole deeproot dumpster fire is, I'm not sure I want to become an actual participant.

Would an anonymous objection be taken seriously? Serious question.

Why not just send the SEC lawyer an email with your concern?

Quoted from TreyBo69:
Why not just send the SEC lawyer an email with your concern?

Ok, you convinced me. We'll see what Mr. David Nasse has to say in response.

If I dug in deep and found $1.25M in my sofa cushions, I could ….

have become a relative at Pinball Brothers

start a company that builds classic Bally pinball machines

create a company that is a huge money suck and name it after what I like doing to people

buy group of 135 life insurance policies

buy Magic Girl playfields and take a dump

put money in backyard fire pit and set it on fire

Some not particularly easy to read info regarding the April 11th TuYo hearing (I assume a more readable document will follow at some point, but posting just in case not):

Hearing to Consider and Act Upon the Following: (1.) IF PARTIES DO NOT WISH TO APPEAR IN PERSON CONTACT THE COURTROOM DEPUTY, DEANNA CASTLEBERRY BY TELEPHONE (210) 472-6720 EXT. 5735 OR BY E-MAIL AT [email protected] to APPEAR VIA TELEPHONE OR WEBEX. (2.) IF TIME ESTIMATE EXCEEDS 20 MINUTES, PLEASE E-MAIL DEANNA CASTLEBERRY AT: [email protected].)(Related Document(s): 78 Trustee's Motion to Approve (A) Sale of Life Insurance Policies (B) Sale Procedures, Stalking Horse Agreement and Bid Protections in Connection with the Sale of Property of the Estate of Policy Services, Inc., and (C) the Form of Notice for the Sale of Property of the Estate of Policy Services, Inc. filed by Randall A. Pulman for Trustee John Patrick Lowe) Hearing Scheduled For 4/11/2022 at 2:00 PM at SA Courtroom 1 (Castleberry, Deanna)***SALE & BIDDING - SET IN OPEN COURT FROM 3/18/2022 - NO FURTHER NOTICE TO BE GIVEN***.

Given the above, I'm thinking the way to get on the agenda to raise points or questions is to reach out in advance (since, per those who attended the most recent hearing, the judge never prompted anyone attending via webex with interest in speaking to do so).

We all (myself included) jump to a conclusion that Turner Logic is some backdoor for Robert to reclaim his stolen fortune.

But thinking about it... Robert is an idiot. If he was a skilled scammer he wouldn't be in this situation. He would have been "spending" money on fake invoices, not buying an Anytime Fitness level of treadmills.

Maybe Turner being really close just means they know the best way to gut this fish?

Quoted from benheck:
We all (myself included) jump to a conclusion that Turner Logic is some backdoor for Robert to reclaim his stolen fortune.
But thinking about it... Robert is an idiot. If he was a skilled scammer he wouldn't be in this situation. He would have been "spending" money on fake invoices, not buying an Anytime Fitness level of treadmills.
Maybe Turner being really close just means they know the best way to gut this fish?

The Mueller backdoor theory is definitely just irresponsible speculation, imo.

But the “Turner not being forthcoming about his knowledge of the life policies and using it to get an unfair advantage in the bankruptcy sell-off” theory is still very compelling and concerning.

Edit: trying to make sure I keep emphasizing “theory” and use the word “alleged” here.

Quoted from JStoltz:
The Mueller backdoor theory is definitely just irresponsible speculation, imo.
But the “Turner not being forthcoming about his knowledge of the life policies and using it to get an unfair advantage in the bankruptcy sell-off” theory is still very compelling and concerning.
Edit: trying to make sure I keep emphasizing “theory” and use the word “alleged” here.

In the end, the biggest thing for Robert (pun) is to minimize jail time and have a nest egg and warchest that includes lots of jewelry (wives 5 and 6 demand it). He could probably sell a screenplay or get a book deal for $1M, if he’s cagey enough.

Quoted from snakesnsparklers:
Not quite. If you have a mastercard with 1% cashback and another mastercard with 2% cashback, the merchant pays the same fees regardless of which card you use. There are differences between MC, VISA, Amex, etc. but not between different types of card within the same company.

You're totally wrong here. Every card has what's called an interchange fee.....there are hundreds of different interchange fees that a merchant can pay. Their contract is negotiated and interchange plus so many basis points above.

Quoted from JStoltz:
The Mueller backdoor theory is definitely just irresponsible speculation, imo.
But the “Turner not being forthcoming about his knowledge of the life policies and using it to get an unfair advantage in the bankruptcy sell-off” theory is still very compelling and concerning.
Edit: trying to make sure I keep emphasizing “theory” and use the word “alleged” here.

No, when it comes to this scumbag who would rip off grandma, any speculation is warranted.

Quoted from Roostking:
No, when it comes to this scumbag who would rip off grandma, any speculation is warranted.

I mean, I don’t like the guy either… Just trying to stick to the stuff we have info/sources on.

Quoted from JStoltz:
I mean, I don’t like the guy either… Just trying to stick to the stuff we have info/sources on.

I hear ya, but I'm kinda past the alleged or theory part. When this was going in, only a few people speculated this might end up being a SEC deal. That wild speculation years ago is justified.

Quoted from JStoltz:
The Mueller backdoor theory is definitely just irresponsible speculation, imo.
But the “Turner not being forthcoming about his knowledge of the life policies and using it to get an unfair advantage in the bankruptcy sell-off” theory is still very compelling and concerning.
Edit: trying to make sure I keep emphasizing “theory” and use the word “alleged” here.

That may have been my fault...

I initially was simply questioning where the servers were since they weren't in the auction listings of Deeproot's on-site equipment.

Then, following that question, if there were no servers on site, I asked where are they?

Someone else had mentioned that Turner Logic was DR's IT company.

Turner Logic and TuYo have a connection...TuYo wants the life insurance policies...and viola; a conspiracy.

What’s the estimated value of these policies? Isn’t it a hell of a lot more than the $1.25 million that Tuyo offered for them? Why would the trustee not object to such a lowball offer?

TuYo order notes part two (part one here: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/twip-is-deeproot-the-next-misadventure-or-a-pinball-revolution/page/588#post-6842524)

Screen Shot 2022-03-23 at 6.30.38 AM (resized).png

As noted elsewhere, parties interested in submitting a bid have only a couple weeks to do so. I suspect TuYo afforded itself significantly more time to work on its bid and due diligence (another posted reported its LLC was established in February of this year).

Screen Shot 2022-03-23 at 6.33.32 AM (resized).png

A hearing to approve the sale will be held a week later (mark your calendars).

Rather than offer a lay take based on light googling, I'd appreciate a sewer lawyer weighing in on the significance of "free and clear of all liens, claims, interests and encumbrances" as it relates to how the purchased assets will (and will not) be treated. Any takers?

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The trustee has discretion to award the purchase to a party other than the one who submitted the highest bid (though I imagine this would be unlikely).

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This will all wrap up in about a month and a half (unless there are hiccups with the winning bidder's followthrough)

Screen Shot 2022-03-23 at 6.45.08 AM (resized).png

The sale hearing is also the last chance for anyone to object to the terms of the sale. So if you're a letter writer with concerns, you'll want to get writing.

Screen Shot 2022-03-23 at 6.49.05 AM (resized).png

Details on how and where to send your bids if you've got at least $1.25m burning a hole in your pocket.

This last item and the rest of the order are near copies of the order proposed by TuYo (so I'm not going to go through them again).

Response from Mr. Nasse, polite but predictable. I suppose I will forward the same message to Mr. Pulman, unless anyone wants to talk me out of it.

0BF24469-DF9E-4BA4-A3A6-B89D75D2156F (resized).jpeg

The courthouse is on Houston Street in San Antonio. I’m sure that’s never confused anyone.

Just looked and there is a San Antonio Street in Houston so I guess the universe is in balance.

Very common in my neck of the woods. There's a Huntley road in Dundee. It takes you to Huntley. The same road in Huntley is Dundee road.

Quoted from yancy:
The same road in Huntley is Dundee road.

The same road in Australia takes you to a crocodile.

There's a Houston st in every major city in Texas. Gotta honor ole Sam.

Quoted from JStoltz:
Response from Mr. Nasse, polite but predictable. I suppose I will forward the same message to Mr. Pulman, unless anyone wants to talk me out of it.
[quoted image]

I did go ahead and send an email to Pulman explaining the general community concerns, linking to a few posts in this thread and providing context.

Referencing Inside and the post about TurnerLogic's investment portal (which was, suspiciously, removed from TurnerLogic's portfolio and is now immortalized on the waybackmachine:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/twip-is-deeproot-the-next-misadventure-or-a-pinball-revolution/page/583#post-6832264

Referencing more thoughts from Inside on why this is concerning:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/twip-is-deeproot-the-next-misadventure-or-a-pinball-revolution/page/584#post-6832538

Referencing ForceFlow summary of March 16th hearing:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/twip-is-deeproot-the-next-misadventure-or-a-pinball-revolution/page/585#post-6836586

Referencing ForceFlow's comments on how Turner seemed to have downplayed his involvement with deeproot and omitted mention of the investment portal:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/twip-is-deeproot-the-next-misadventure-or-a-pinball-revolution/page/585#post-6836608

I did get a response from Pulman just a few minutes ago. His recommendation was that a proper objection be filed by April 4th. I think this is where I reach my comfort limit with the process... Hopefully Inside (or someone else with firsthand information) is willing to file a proper objection.

The response from Pulman also seems to say "Uhh, You got someone else we can sell these things to, wise guy?" to which I obviously have no good response. I replied to Pulman thanking him for his time and letting him know I'd pass his response along.
pasted_image (resized).png

I also made sure to highlight the removal of "deeproot Funds portal" from TurnerLogic's portfolio, logged by web.archive.org, and the lack of references to it in TuYo's purchase agreement's disclosures. Looks to me like that's Section 6 of Exhibit 3, where the purchaser's relationship with deeproot is only mentioned in the final bullet of the section. This bullet seems more about "ruling out any chance the debtor could benefit from the sale" and less about "purchaser access to privileged/inside information." Anybody else see any other areas of this document with disclosures about the relationship between Purchaser Principal (Turner) and Debtor (Deeproot)?
https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/61608049/85/deeproot-capital-management-llc-and-deeproot-capital-management-llc/
Purchase Agreement Blurb (resized).png

Alrighty, 90 minute "lunch break" for this nonsense is over.

Since the deeproot bankruptcy trustee auction inspection was today, I went over to take a look, and I sent Blueberry Johnson several pictures. Here is some info the group may be interested in.
1. Auctioneer staff says nobody took computers. At first, auction house was wiping all computers there in preparation for selling, but it became clear they would not have enough time to complete that task. So the missing computers were removed from the sale at the trustee's request, to prevent any sensitive information going out with the computers.
2. Both San Antonio facilities were open for inspection. The second facility is across the street from the back of the large Silicon Dr. facility, and it houses some enormous equipment. The biggest machine is for spraying, coating, and drying panels (I assume meant for cabinets and playfields) and costs about $500k new. It looked like that second facility was just in the beginning stages of being reworked to suit deeproot purposes, because it was all torn up.
3. Per info on a white board for sale, 125 RAZAs were sold total. 69 arcade, 56 xtra.

I was over there earlier as well.

Destroyed hard drives in the trash

Also, is that the “secret” deeproot playfield epoxy mix?

86FDA9E0-2411-4AC3-9E59-1EB31961538F (resized).jpeg

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Quoted from Inside:
I was over there earlier as well.
Destroyed hard drives in the trash
Also, is that the “secret” deeproot playfield epoxy mix?
[quoted image][quoted image]

That drive looks like it might be recoverable. It could be just the shell that was damaged (survived a hammer test?). Throw the drive platters into a new housing in a clean environment, and bob's your uncle. Rossman Repair in NYC does hard drive repair services fairly inexpensively compared to the bigger industry giants.

Quoted from ForceFlow:
That drive looks like it might be recoverable. It could be just the shell that was damaged (survived a hammer test?). Throw the drive platters into a new housing in a clean environment, and bob's your uncle. Rossman Repair in NYC does hard drive repair services fairly inexpensively compared to the bigger industry giants.

Actually just walked through and saw everything. My buddy didn’t think it was recoverable but who knows

The main takeaway? Holy crap, a few pictures here and there don’t even come close to doing the MASSIVE waste and ineptitude picture justice.

The place is MUCH bigger than it appears and endless wasted machinery, tools, office furniture etc. Jaw dropping actually

They def had everything ready to produce games if they weren’t so horrendous at actually running a business

The two Raza games? Lot 86 would be just a piece art for someone. Lot 100, no code and I think whomever gets it is gonna be disappointed with it. Pretty much same thing, a one of two, depending on who has the LE out there.

I’ll post some pics later. Have some good ones everybody will enjoy

Here’s one you might want to bid on?

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Here are some pics from today.

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A few more

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What was posted by Catwoman and myself scratches the surface of what’s there.

Literally decked out to house/accommodate 150-200 employees, maybe more

Theres some cool looking playfields in there. Wouldnt bother me if Mr Greatwich is right and someone takes over and tries to finish up a couple of those games, seems a shame to let all that design work fall by the wayside.

Great work to all the inspectors. Please keep the pics coming if you have more. If not, still a ton of details to dig into with the ones already shared.

Those whiteboards are so cute, like kids playing dress-up businessmen.

Quoted from yancy:
Those whiteboards are so cute, like kids playing dress-up businessmen.

pasted_image (resized).png

thank you for posting all those photos Iceman and catwoman

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deeproot Pinball thread

By pin2d

5 years ago

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