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(Topic ID: 203700)

deeproot Pinball thread

By pin2d

6 years ago


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#29251 2 years ago
 
JCS

jeffspinballpalace

JeffSPinballPalace

20y 242K 19,063 556

I don’t know it’s not that bad of a business to be in as long as you don’t make it personal. For instance, what if some of the policies were on Robert or people he knew. That would be weird. But it is just a statistical investment with a defined end date and payoff. Life insurance seems best if buy a bundle of say 135 policies for $1M when they are worth $19M. These boys are in the big leagues and they know how to earn.

Quoted from iceman44:

Yeah you don’t pay premiums out of your own pocket to keep the insurance in place unless you KNOW there is a big payday potential. And they have done it without even owning the policies!
135 policies? I don’t know how you possibly value those if you aren’t privy to the health data and under the HIPPA laws you can’t get it now.
The longer the 135 people live means the longer you have to pay the premiums to keep the policies in force.
I mean it’s a terrible thing imo to want to invest in. You are basically hoping people die before their life expectancy so the policy is more profitable.
For buyers like Coventry I get it, it helps some people get cash out of their death benefit while living.
But this seems shaky as shit to me.
I might want to go check the 15 boxes myself just to see what’s up.
Maybe this is Bobby’s back door payday after he bankrupted and ripped off the company?

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#29252 2 years ago
 
DRM

iceman44

Pinside+ Pro!

US Boerne, TX

13y 162K 26,899 28 49

Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

I don’t know it’s not that bad of a business to be in as long as you don’t make it personal. For instance, what if some of the policies were on Robert or people he knew. That would be weird. But it is just a statistical investment with a defined end date and payoff.

Do a little Google search on “life settlements” and the plethora of fraud involved, especially in these Reg D cases.

It’s everywhere.

Like I said, if it’s a Coventry, that’s different.

Even the only prior publicly traded Life Settlement company went down for massive fraud and misreporting of health status to shareholders.

So yeah, when a shyster like Bobby does it, then promising returns to investors based on those policies and “affiliated companies” it’s not a good thing

Do argue just to argue no matter what is said?

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#29253 2 years ago
 
BEN

benheck

Pinside member

US Madison, WI

11y 115K 5,507

Quoted from Barr993:

I listened in and was surprised there weren't more on the call.
Why would TuYo combine forces, pay $28k in premiums up front without protection and $540k escrow? There has to be a hell of an upside here.

They're either vultures or crooks.

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#29254 2 years ago
 
BAR

Barr993

Pinside+ Frequent

US Evesham Township, NJ

6y 87,550 312 5

Quoted from ForceFlow:

and the response was no--but it seemed like there was some hesitation in the answer compared to various other questions that were asked.

I thought the same but wrote it off until you said it.

Tu looked like the cat that ate the canary and Yo looked nervous IMO.

Edit: ...but that could just be their normal.

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#29255 2 years ago
 
JSS

JStoltz

Pinside member

6y 62,050 822 4

Quoted from benheck:

They're either vultures or crooks.

4241BF6B-2B86-4DA7-838B-DDF57BC47F1C (resized).jpeg4241BF6B-2B86-4DA7-838B-DDF57BC47F1C (resized).jpeg

Edit: I have no idea how to get rid of the sideways one. Oh well.

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#29256 2 years ago
 
THC

jamesmc

Pinside+ Frequent

7y 77,550 619 14

Words that's popped up in my mind. Sealed indictment, conspiracy to commit fraud, money laundering. "The Gang that Couldn't Fraud Straight".

Thought that popped up in my mind. US Attorney drinking with peers saying "I spent a shit ton of assets on forensic accountants to tell me that is the dumbest f ing sob they've ever investigated".

2nd thought. US Attorney is either watching a conspiracy to commit fraud take place in front of him. Or he's the one who instigated it. More defendants the better. If federal fraud statute's are like federal drug statute's, then a conspiracy charge would seem likely from these overt acts of making the payments.

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#29257 2 years ago
 
KIM

Mr68

Pinside+ Frequent

US Boulder, CO

12y 150K 8,647

Quoted from JStoltz:

Edit: I have no idea how to get rid of the sideways one.

Go to Edit Post. Scroll down below your comment, your pictures will be displayed and each will have a watermark on them. Click on the X
zz12 (resized).pngzz12 (resized).png

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#29258 2 years ago
 
JSS

JStoltz

Pinside member

6y 62,050 822 4

Quoted from Mr68:

Go to Edit Post. Scroll down below your comment, your pictures will be displayed and each will have a watermark on them. Click on the X
[quoted image]

Hah, yeah— but for some reason I don’t have that on the sideways one.

Whatever, moving on! Is someone going to file an objection on this sale or what? Seems like Inside would be best suited for the job…

85504362-57E6-4BBD-A4C5-A2FCDD37D6CE (resized).jpeg85504362-57E6-4BBD-A4C5-A2FCDD37D6CE (resized).jpeg
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#29259 2 years ago
 
---

ForceFlow

Pinside Moderator

9y 238K 31,369 268 14

Quoted from JStoltz:

Hah, yeah— but for some reason I don’t have that on the sideways one.
Whatever, moving on! Is someone going to file an objection on this sale or what? Seems like Inside would be best suited for the job…[quoted image]

I took care of it. For some reason, the icons weren't appearing on a mobile browser, but were on a desktop browser

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#29260 2 years ago
 
BBJ

blueberryjohnson

Pinside+ Frequent

US Honolulu, HI

8y 101K 4,729 1

Quoted from ForceFlow:

The question was asked if mueller would benefit in any way from the sale of the policies, if he retained any control over the polices, or if he had a vested interest in Tuyo, and the response was no--but it seemed like there was some hesitation in the answer compared to various other questions that were asked.

That's a strange response (and I'm bummed to have missed the entire thing) because in TuYo's motion filing it spells out the process by which RM could start to financially benefit.

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#29261 2 years ago
 
KIM

Mr68

Pinside+ Frequent

US Boulder, CO

12y 150K 8,647

Quoted from blueberryjohnson:

That's a strange response (and I'm bummed to have missed the entire thing) because in TuYo's motion filing it spells out the process by which RM could start to financially benefit.

And expose those in cahoots with him. Blueberry's Bunco Squad!

MV5BZWRjYmNiYjItZThiMi00NWIwLTkxMGMtZGFlMjFjMmQxNjhiXkEyXkFqcGdeQXVyNjA2ODA0Nzc@._V1_SY1000_CR0,0,649,1000_AL_ SMALL (resized).jMV5BZWRjYmNiYjItZThiMi00NWIwLTkxMGMtZGFlMjFjMmQxNjhiXkEyXkFqcGdeQXVyNjA2ODA0Nzc@._V1_SY1000_CR0,0,649,1000_AL_ SMALL (resized).j

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#29262 2 years ago
 
JAQ

vdojaq

Pinside+ Frequent

US Crystal Lake, IL

11y 101K 6,050 24 1

Quoted from iceman44:

Maybe this is Bobby’s back door payday after he bankrupted and ripped off the company?

If there is any truth to this it makes little Bobby a pure evil genius.

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#29263 2 years ago
 
???

Brian_Pinball

Pinside member

US Norwalk, OH

10y 29,800 27 4

Quoted from blueberryjohnson:

That's a strange response (and I'm bummed to have missed the entire thing) because in TuYo's motion filing it spells out the process by which RM could start to financially benefit.

Really appreciate your work on this.

I skimmed over the motion. Normally if the buyer of the insurance polices recovers money from the lapsed policy the money would not go back to the debtor but would become part of the bankruptcy estate and be distributed to the creditors. The wording of the motion is confusing though. I see no way that Robert could receive any proceeds from the sale of the lapsed polices under the bankruptcy code. What should be happening is lapsed policy proceeds split between Tuyo and creditors after Tuyo's expenses. If not the Trustee would have no reason to agree to it since the sale of the lapsed policies would not benefit the creditors. The only way Robert is getting anything out of this is if he has an under the table deal with Tuyo. Page 79 1(b) of the motion explains the process. I am a bankruptcy lawyer but I don't practice in Texas.

Post last edited 2 years ago: “Additional details”

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#29264 2 years ago
 
JAQ

vdojaq

Pinside+ Frequent

US Crystal Lake, IL

11y 101K 6,050 24 1

What I can come up with that seems plausible is RM was tipped off that shit was about to hit the fan with DR. RM reaches out to TuYo and makes the backdoor deal by exposing all the info needed for TuYo to realize the potential value in these policies. What's RM's fee? A cool couple of $Mil after all the dust has cleared? It's clean, and everyone walks away unscathed. There is just no way that this is an out of the blue aquisition attempt by TuYo.

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#29265 2 years ago
 
???

Brian_Pinball

Pinside member

US Norwalk, OH

10y 29,800 27 4

Quoted from vdojaq:What I can come up with that seems plausible is RM was tipped off that shit was about to hit the fan with DR. RM reaches out to TuYo and makes the backdoor deal by exposing all the info needed for TuYo to realize the potential value in these policies. What's RM's fee? A cool couple of $Mil after all the dust has cleared? It's clean, and everyone walks away unscathed. There is just no way that this is an out of the blue aquisition attempt by TuYo.

I agree the transaction seems highly suspect. I just wanted to say there is no way legally that Robert should be benefiting from the sale. Given the allegations against Robert, what you are saying wouldn't surprise me at all.

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#29266 2 years ago
 
BBJ

blueberryjohnson

Pinside+ Frequent

US Honolulu, HI

8y 101K 4,729 1

Quoted from Brian_Pinball:

Really appreciate your work on this.
I skimmed over the motion. Normally if the buyer of the insurance polices recovers money from the lapsed policy the money would not go back to the debtor but would become part of the bankruptcy estate and be distributed to the creditors. The wording of the motion is confusing though. I see no way that Robert could receive any proceeds from the sale of the lapsed polices under the bankruptcy code. What should be happening is lapsed policy proceeds split between Tuyo and creditors after Tuyo's expenses. If not the Trustee would have no reason to agree to it since the sale of the lapsed policies would not benefit the creditors. The only way Robert is getting anything out of this is if he has an under the table deal with Tuyo. Page 79 1(b) of the motion explains the process. I am a bankruptcy lawyer but I don't practice in Texas.

This is the part I was referencing. Though I'm not any kind of lawyer, so maybe I'm misunderstanding.

Screen Shot 2022-03-19 at 7.29.48 AM (resized).pngScreen Shot 2022-03-19 at 7.29.48 AM (resized).png
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#29267 2 years ago
 
???

Brian_Pinball

Pinside member

US Norwalk, OH

10y 29,800 27 4

Quoted from blueberryjohnson:

This is the part I was referencing. Though I'm not any kind of lawyer, so maybe I'm misunderstanding.[quoted image]

I agree that it is not clearly written but the debtor is bankrupt and the debtor is not Robert personally. When a business files bankruptcy essentially all its assets become part of the bankruptcy estate and assets, that have value, are liquidated to pay the creditors. When the lawyer for the Trustee that wrote this motion refers to the debtor, they are referencing the now bankrupt debtor aka the bankruptcy estate or trustee.

Check page 79 1(b) on that motion and you can see that the proceeds are to be split between Tuyo and the Trustee. The part I am referencing is in the notice that will be sent out to creditors and is part of the order the Court is approving because it is incorporated by reference in the proposed order. The Trustee in no way represents Robert or Robert's various companies the Trustee represents the creditors. In fact, the Trustee commonly pursues the debtor to recover assets for the benefit of the estate.

There is just no way legally, that I am aware of that, Robert can benefit from this sale. The Trustee would not ask for that to happen and the Court would not be able to approve it. If most people, except for someone familiar with bankruptcy, read the section you referenced they would come to the same conclusion you did but nothing in the bankruptcy code allows Robert to get anything out of this transaction. The motion just assumes that the reference to debtor will be understood to mean the trustee/estate because normally nonlawyers are not looking at these motions without legal advice. In the end, the order will control and that is at least clear on the distribution of proceeds.

Post last edited 2 years ago: “Typo”

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#29268 2 years ago
 
BBJ

blueberryjohnson

Pinside+ Frequent

US Honolulu, HI

8y 101K 4,729 1

Quoted from Brian_Pinball:

I agree that it is not clearly written but the debtor is bankrupt and the debtor is not Robert personally. When a business files bankruptcy essentially all its assets become part of the bankruptcy estate and assets, that have value, are liquidated to pay the creditors. When the lawyer for the Trustee that wrote this motion refers to the debtor, they are referencing the now bankrupt debtor aka the bankruptcy estate or trustee.
Check page 79 1(b) on that motion and you can see that the proceeds are to be split between Tuyo and the Trustee. The part I am referencing is in the notice that will be sent out to creditors and is part of the order the Court is approving because it is incorporated by reference in the proposed order. The Trustee in no way represents Robert or Robert's various companies the Trustee represents the creditors. In fact, the Trustee commonly pursues the debtor to recover assets for the benefit of the estate.
There is just no way legally, that I am aware of that, Robert can benefit from this sale. The Trustee would not ask for that to happen and the Court would not be able to approve it. If most people, except for someone familiar with bankruptcy, read the section you referenced they would come to the same conclusion you did but nothing in the bankruptcy code allows Robert to get anything out of this transaction. The motion just assumes that the reference to debtor will be understood to mean the trustee/estate because normally nonlawyers are not looking at these motions without legal advice. In the end, the order will control and that is at least clear on the distribution of proceeds.

Got it. Thanks for the clarification. I would have surprised me if any there were to be any formal and above board way a judge would approve a party seeking to purchases the assets stating they'd potentially end up sending money back to RM. That's just how that paragraph read to me.

Anyway, whether or not Turner and Robert would try to have some arrangement behind the scenes is totally speculative and not what raised both of my eyebrows about the situation. It's the situation itself. Seeing Turner's name in the document was a wtf moment for me, and was followed by several others.

Catching up on the hearing I missed yesterday, it sounds like the judge didn't pause for other attendees who wanted to put something forward to do so, is that the case? Anyway, hopefully the order contains a deadline-bound opportunity for objections to the sale so that anyone with legitimate ones can make them.

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#29269 2 years ago
 
---

ForceFlow

Pinside Moderator

9y 238K 31,369 268 14

Quoted from blueberryjohnson:

Catching up on the hearing I missed yesterday, it sounds like the judge didn't pause for other attendees who wanted to put something forward to do so, is that the case?

Correct. There were no openings or invitations for anyone in the gallery to speak.

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#29270 2 years ago
 
BEN

benheck

Pinside member

US Madison, WI

11y 115K 5,507

Robert could very well be using Turner Logic as a backdoor to reclaim some of his money.

What are the payments to Turner? Seems like a really easy way to embezzle money, you could write 3 lines of code and say "trade secrets, that'll be 1 million dollars"

Basically like modern art. It's all money laundering.

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#29271 2 years ago
 
KIM

Mr68

Pinside+ Frequent

US Boulder, CO

12y 150K 8,647

Quoted from Brian_Pinball:

.

I very much appreciate you joining the discussion here with your knowledge and expertise. I look forward to learning more.
Thank you.

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#29272 2 years ago
 
KEF

pinball_keefer

Jersey Jack Pinball

US South Elgin, IL

12y 80,800 1,253 12

Quoted from vdojaq:

RM reaches out to TuYo and makes the backdoor deal by exposing all the info needed for TuYo to realize the potential value in these policies. What's RM's fee? A cool couple of $Mil after all the dust has cleared? It's clean, and everyone walks away unscathed. There is just no way that this is an out of the blue aquisition attempt by TuYo.

Especially since the entity (Tuyo holdings) didn't exist until 2/22/22 iirc from TX sos.

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#29273 2 years ago
 
BBJ

blueberryjohnson

Pinside+ Frequent

US Honolulu, HI

8y 101K 4,729 1

Quoted from Barr993:

I listened in and was surprised there weren't more on the call.
Why would TuYo combine forces, pay $28k in premiums up front without protection and $540k escrow? There has to be a hell of an upside here.

Seems very odd, no? Like, the premise is these folks have no special or greater knowledge and familiarity regarding these assets than any other unaffiliated party who might appraise them as worthy of pursuit, and yet they're doing the above.

This is a situation that deserves closer scrutiny than it sounds like it received yesterday. I certainly hope it gets it.

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#29274 2 years ago
 
VON

VonPinball

Pinside+ Frequent

US Denver, CO

5y 79,800 156 4 28

In the SEC hearing it sounded like (to a non-lawyer) discovery was granted for third parties. I would assume the SEC would want a look at those boxes and docs. Going back to the server/data storage thing, you would assume Turner will get a discovery request too. Have there been discovery requests? Are interrogatories and discovery requests public docs?

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#29275 2 years ago
 
---

ForceFlow

Pinside Moderator

9y 238K 31,369 268 14

Quoted from VonPinball:

In the SEC hearing it sounded like (to a non-lawyer) discovery was granted for third parties. I would assume the SEC would want a look at those boxes and docs. Going back to the server/data storage thing, you would assume Turner will get a discovery request too. Have there been discovery requests? Are interrogatories and discovery requests public docs?

I don't think you'll see that in court documents unless there is an obstruction with the investigation or until discovered items are ready to be entered into the record as exhibits.

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#29276 2 years ago
 
BBJ

blueberryjohnson

Pinside+ Frequent

US Honolulu, HI

8y 101K 4,729 1

Auction about half over (less than 6 days left) and the bids are very modest. I wonder if it will be a late flurry to take things in silly directions or if not much will come of it in the end. Right now, highest bid for anything is just over $5k for a forklift. One of handful of > $1k items is America's Most Haunted, and it's probably around half of what one would go for on pinside.

https://mtdauctions.hibid.com/catalog/352536/mel-davis-auctions-232---deeproot/?ipp=100

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#29277 2 years ago
 
C F

frolic

Pinside+ Frequent

11y 149K 9,809

To those that know the value of some of that industrial gear; what's the most shocking "pennies on the dollar" auction?

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#29278 2 years ago
 
AXE

YeOldPinPlayer

Inactive member

Unknown

8y 111K 6,454 4 12

Quoted from frolic:

To those that know the value of some of that industrial gear; what's the most shocking "pennies on the dollar" auction?

Nothing is shocking because nothing has sold. No way to tell if anything will go for pennies on the dollar or stupid multiples of reasonable prices.

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#29279 2 years ago
 
JJZ

toyotaboy

RandOM Pinball

US Allyn, WA

12y 184K 11,937 3 14

anyone want to chime in what you would need 1AWG wire for making pinball? I mean I know there were some big machines, but that wire carries like 140amps. You'd have to be running a separate breaker box somewhere. There's at least 2 spools for bid
https://mtdauctions.hibid.com/lot/115410556/spool-of-1-awg-insulated-wire/?ipp=10&q=&ref=catalog

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#29280 2 years ago
 
WOO

Noahs_Arcade

Pinside member

10y 62,850 1,806

Quoted from toyotaboy:

anyone want to chime in what you would need 1AWG wire for making pinball?

those are trappings from the african mines

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#29281 2 years ago
 
JLG

JodyG

Ramp-O-Matic

6y 143K 4,616 6 21 1

Quoted from toyotaboy:

anyone want to chime in what you would need 1AWG wire for making pinball? I mean I know there were some big machines, but that wire carries like 140amps. You'd have to be running a separate breaker box somewhere. There's at least 2 spools for bid
https://mtdauctions.hibid.com/lot/115410556/spool-of-1-awg-insulated-wire/?ipp=10&q=&ref=catalog

Probably used for 3 phase hookups for some of the large equipment like the dust collector, drum sander and the Belovac vacuum form press. You just buy a whole spool at a time, especially when you have to do 3 pulls to each machine. That spool looks mostly used up, so it may just be left over.

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#29282 2 years ago
 
DDT

daudioguy

Pinside member

US Redmond, WA

16y 65,300 189 1

I have read most of this thread with understandable interest and cringing.

Can't say much as the NDA will be in effect until October 2023. I don't make enough in this industry to spend it on lawyers defending my right to amuse you with anecdotes.

I am on record stating that in 2021 I expected four machines to be made that I had contributed to. It didn't happen and Deeproot is a big part of that. Between Deeproot and the plague the last few years have been hard.

In 2022 Alien is being produced, Cactus Canyon and I expect that one more will become available (I call it super secret, and it will remain that until the reveal).

For the record: I was a Deeproot contractor, not an employee. My employment agreement has lapsed (but not the NDA). Until the SEC suit became public I had no idea about the source of funding for Deeproot pinball. I am shocked and saddened at investor losses.

My opinion about Deeproot Pinball is not subject to NDA in the abstract. From what little I know I believe that the endeavor was sincere and pursued with vigor. The lack of domain experience in those in charge was catastrophic. The experienced employees and contractors were not in charge.

I'm giving a talk in June at the NWPGRS in Tacoma where I will be sharing some of the Deeproot work that you will only be able to hear there.

Fortunately, it is a new year and good things are coming.

David Thiel
Pinball Audio Artist

Key post
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#29283 2 years ago
 
SCC

mrgone

Pinside member

US Casper, WY

12y 119K 5,181 4 54

Quoted from daudioguy:

I have read most of this thread with understandable interest and cringing.
Can't say much as the NDA will be in effect until October 2023. I don't make enough in this industry to spend it on lawyers defending my right to amuse you with anecdotes.
I am on record stating that in 2021 I expected four machines to be made that I had contributed to. It didn't happen and Deeproot is a big part of that. Between Deeproot and the plague the last few years have been hard.
In 2022 Alien is being produced, Cactus Canyon and I expect that one more will become available (I call it super secret, and it will remain that until the reveal).
For the record: I was a Deeproot contractor, not an employee. My employment agreement has lapsed (but not the NDA). Until the SEC suit became public I had no idea about the source of funding for Deeproot pinball. I am shocked and saddened at investor losses.
My opinion about Deeproot Pinball is not subject to NDA in the abstract. From what little I know I believe that the endeavor was sincere and pursued with vigor. The lack of domain experience in those in charge was catastrophic. The experienced employees and contractors were not in charge.
I'm giving a talk in June at the NWPGRS in Tacoma where I will be sharing some of the Deeproot work that you will only be able to hear there.
Fortunately, it is a new year and good things are coming.
David Thiel
Pinball Audio Artist

Thank you for coming on here to share the information.
Good luck to you in the coming year.

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#29284 2 years ago
 
MIK

Miguel351

Pinside member

11y 81,400 4,571 3

Quoted from vdojaq:

What I can come up with that seems plausible is RM was tipped off that shit was about to hit the fan with DR. RM reaches out to TuYo and makes the backdoor deal by exposing all the info needed for TuYo to realize the potential value in these policies. What's RM's fee? A cool couple of $Mil after all the dust has cleared? It's clean, and everyone walks away unscathed. There is just no way that this is an out of the blue aquisition attempt by TuYo.

This is very plausible.

What I think is also quite plausible is this was all part of the plan all along, hence the "poor record keeping". It's a long-con. All of this other stuff was going on and he had planned to launder enough money from all the other LLCs to fund turning a hobby of his into a business. It was working for a while but he knew things could turn on a dime as the pinball side wasn't going as planned and pinball folks, who are armed with a massive forum can get awfully nosy and vocal, started to murmur about said pinball company and he started calling his buddies to set up his exit strategy. A strategy that includes defaulting, a bankruptcy hearing, and an eventual sale that he could be the secret buyer in. Thereby, reducing his investment in all his assets by about 75%, increasing his profit potential almost exponentially. I don't think he factored in the SEC into all of this. But I think he thinks that even if he's sentenced in that hearing, he'll go to to a white collar, medium security prison for a year all while his secret buyout continues unfettered. Hopefully, that's not the case and he ends up in a "federal pound-me-in-the-ass prison".

image (resized).jpegimage (resized).jpeg
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#29285 2 years ago
 
VIC

vicjw66

Pinside member

US San Pedro/port Of Los Angeles, CA

12y 92,550 5,257 4 6

So what if Mueller spent most of his time researching the people behind these 135 policies. Maybe even becoming actively involved in their lives. Introduced them to Dr. Feelgoods, or showed them the delights of a diet high in Arby’s. Ooh, this guy has got it all planned out.

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#29286 2 years ago
 
GAC

Rarehero

Pinside member

US Los Angeles, CA

12y 134K 23,147 22 119

I’m no lawyer, but I’d think that any NDAs are null & void at this point. Blobbert can’t hurt you anymore.

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#29287 2 years ago
 
C F

frolic

Pinside+ Frequent

11y 149K 9,809

Quoted from daudioguy:

Fortunately, it is a new year and good things are coming.

Keep your chin up, David. We're all fans here .

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#29288 2 years ago
 
MBW

mbwalker

Pinside+ Frequent

7y 135K 5,325 9

So TuYo is forking out money to keep some life insurance policies in place. But has Deeproot IP (i.e. RAZA IP) been mentioned at all as an asset?

Not the RAZA pins themselves, but any IP related material. There was talk about the code and servers going AWOL, but just because they're missing, doesn't mean someone owns the code if RM paid for it.

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#29289 2 years ago
 
JCS

jeffspinballpalace

JeffSPinballPalace

20y 242K 19,063 556

Quoted from blueberryjohnson:

Auction about half over (less than 6 days left) and the bids are very modest. I wonder if it will be a late flurry to take things in silly directions or if not much will come of it in the end. Right now, highest bid for anything is just over $5k for a forklift. One of handful of > $1k items is America's Most Haunted, and it's probably around half of what one would go for on pinside.
https://mtdauctions.hibid.com/catalog/352536/mel-davis-auctions-232---deeproot/?ipp=100

AMH is the only pinball machine being sold from deeproot that works and imo, it is the only thing of value being offered. Plus if the software was scrubbed by TuYo, Buyer can download and restore it from publicly available code. This machine might bring in as much as $10k. But remember, it is one of the “best” things to buy. Anyone listening in on the trial, heard a lawyer explain to the judge the auction and Trojan horse are to raise money to pay back creditors. Creditors -$61M, auction brings in +$50k and Trojan deal yields another $1M (instead of $19M it is worth). Legal fees paid to all parties = $1M(?).

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#29290 2 years ago
 
BBJ

blueberryjohnson

Pinside+ Frequent

US Honolulu, HI

8y 101K 4,729 1

Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

AMH is the only pinball machine being sold from deeproot that works and imo, it is the only thing of value being offered. Plus if the software was scrubbed by TuYo, Buyer can download and restore it from publicly available code. This machine might bring in as much as $10k. But remember, it is one of the “best” things to buy. Anyone listening in on the trial, heard a lawyer explain to the judge the auction and Trojan horse are to raise money to pay back creditors. Creditors -$61M, auction brings in +$50k and Trojan deal yields another $1M (instead of $19M it is worth). Legal fees paid to all parties = $1M(?).

Was it communicated that the Black Hole machine doesn't work?

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#29291 2 years ago
 
BEN

benheck

Pinside member

US Madison, WI

11y 115K 5,507

Will be a flurry of bids at end but still. Pennies on the dollar.

Everything has to be moved out in one day? Imagine 6 different crews trying to move those CNC and large equipment - ugh. Gonna drive down the price.

The complete PC lots being removed lends a lot of credence to the Turner Logic Buyback Scam. Smells like the IP is being hoarded. Bet those RAZA have their SSDs yanked.

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#29292 2 years ago
 
BBJ

blueberryjohnson

Pinside+ Frequent

US Honolulu, HI

8y 101K 4,729 1

Quoted from benheck:

Will be a flurry of bids at end but still. Pennies on the dollar.
Everything has to be moved out in one day? Imagine 6 different crews trying to move those CNC and large equipment - ugh. Gonna drive down the price.
The complete PC lots being removed lends a lot of credence to the Turner Logic Buyback Scam. Smells like the IP is being hoarded. Bet those RAZA have their SSDs yanked.

I'll note that this auction was initiated by the landlord who had to put forth a motion to get this crap cleared out of the building. The trustee elected to go with an auction as the means of doing so. This is not being presented either as all of the assets that remain under the control of the trustee or the only time/way that funds will be recovered for creditors (and lawyers).

In fact, even 5th amendment Bobby in the schedules he filled out for the 13 or however many LLCs listed assets we have not seen in this auction. So just because something wasn't auctioned or seen here, doesn't mean it won't be seen or auctioned (or otherwise sold) at some point.

However, knowing RM, I do expect continued shenanigans which will likely include unaccounted for and mysteriously missing assets. It's just that we should not interpret this auction as representing all that remains of the most innovative company in pinball history.

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#29293 2 years ago
 
JCS

jeffspinballpalace

JeffSPinballPalace

20y 242K 19,063 556

Quoted from blueberryjohnson:

Was it communicated that the Black Hole machine doesn't work?

No, but say the name of the game again. Was it the company motto?

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#29294 2 years ago
 
DRM

iceman44

Pinside+ Pro!

US Boerne, TX

13y 162K 26,899 28 49

Quoted from ForceFlow:

There are 15 boxes of paper documents from deeproot concerning the insurance policies. These would be available for inspection for any interested bidders.
This was noted to be a highly speculative investment due to the incomplete state of record keeping.
$1.25m is set as the next bid for the policies for any potential new bidders.
There will be a sale hearing scheduled for April 11 2pm central time.
Bid & sale objection notice period is 14 days and deadline will be set for April 4.
Closing for the sale is set for May 3.
Court went into recess so a few technical details could be discussed among clients concerning the sale.

Thinking about this. It seems to me that $28k is a nominal amount to maintain certain “in force” policies in the short term.

Not sure where the $540k deposit actually went to because there are likely additional payments required monthly to keep the “in force” policies, in force

How did they have all of the details of these policies before everyone else and seemingly just drop into the picture out of nowhere?

As for the “lapsed policies”. Insurance companies typically give a 30 day grace period but beyond that timeframe you generally have to submit an application to reinstate the policy.

This would typically require updated health information and “attestations” from the “insureds” as to their health status. That’s no small undertaking. The “insureds” no longer have an interest in the policy. Why would they bother?

So what’s left on the “in force” policies in those 135?

$1,080,000 to purchase the policies, plus whatever additional premium payments it’s going to take to maintain those policies over the course of remaining lives. An unknown.

Turner, a software guy, just decided on his own that throwing a million + into buying these policies sounds like a cool idea?

You have to KNOW the details on those 135 policies to jump in there and bid like that. Life expectancies, mortality history of paid policies AND the health rating of EACH policy. “Preferred”, “Standard”, “Table rated” etc. Software guys KNOWS?

stay tuned, additional bidders?

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#29295 2 years ago
 
AXE

YeOldPinPlayer

Inactive member

Unknown

8y 111K 6,454 4 12

Quoted from iceman44:

stay tuned, additional bidders?

Maybe these mysterious entities are the ones greatwichjohn has been so cryptic about!

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#29296 2 years ago
 
???

frobozz

Pinside member

US Chicago, IL

8y 46,650 507 9

Quoted from mbwalker:

So TuYo is forking out money to keep some life insurance policies in place. But has Deeproot IP (i.e. RAZA IP) been mentioned at all as an asset?

With the possible of greatwichjohn's mysterious friends, to whom would that IP possibly be an asset? Everyone else would consider it a Superfund site.

0
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#29297 2 years ago
 
DRK

LORDDREK

Pinside member

US Derry, NH

3y 70,800 1,156 13

Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:

Maybe these mysterious entities are the ones greatwichjohn has been so cryptic about!

Quoted from frobozz:

With the possible of greatwichjohn's mysterious friends, to whom would that IP possibly be an asset? Everyone else would consider it a Superfund site.

Maybe he can come back here and enlighten us after he’s done taking a dump on the update in the Fathom thread…

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#29298 2 years ago
 
JCS

jeffspinballpalace

JeffSPinballPalace

20y 242K 19,063 556

Quoted from frobozz:

With the possible of greatwichjohn's mysterious friends, to whom would that IP possibly be an asset? Everyone else would consider it a Superfund site.

JPOP could be managed Everybody knows JPOP’s toxic. Everything he touches turns to toxic waste. Oh, we are taking about R Mueller? Everything he touches turns to toxic waste.

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#29299 2 years ago
 
DJQ

DanQverymuch

Pinside+ Addict

US Neenah, WI

12y 98,550 4,531

Quoted from benheck:

Everything has to be moved out in one day? Imagine 6 different crews trying to move those CNC and large equipment - ugh. Gonna drive down the price.

No, loadout is four days, 3/28 to 3/31.

Still, if they are smart, the buyers will all be there on day one, if only to decrease the odds of pilferers walking off with something important.

9
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#29300 2 years ago
 
JWG

greatwichjohn

Great Pinball

CA Halifax, NS

11y 100K 4,532

Quoted from LORDDREK:

Maybe he can come back here and enlighten us after he’s done taking a dump on the update in the Fathom thread…

Sorry I am not taking a dump on the fanboys lovefest of Fathom 2.0 Just saying another finished example like #2, Rick has likely #1 to approve. How many more new Fathom builds are there Damian? Not showing of any quantity of cabinets, finished playfields, parts, employees working. Guess we got the maybe they have caught up on any Celts builds & demand purchases past the deposits for Fathom. Wish them the best, but maybe hire a PR Person or be more honest about production problems.

As for anything to come from the auction or manufacturing post Deeproot fiasco stay tuned. Likely a number of players are looking at something, nothing, or go their own route. Even Jpop will likely find another home in the pinball world.

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