Alice in Wonderland
Zidware Pinball USA, 2013
Celts
Haggis, 2021
Magic Girl
Zidware Pinball USA, 2017
Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland
Zidware Pinball USA, 2012
Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland (Arcade Edition)
Deeproot, 2020
Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland (Xtra Edition)
Deeproot, 2020Quoted from TreyBo69:I don’t like how Ice constantly acts like things are going to mostly work out for people.
Ice is like a cat in this thread, that doesn’t realize his 9th life exited 2 or 3 lives ago. He’s working a dead cat bounce, for the third time.
Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:Ice is like a cat in this thread, that doesn’t realize his 9th life exited 2 or 3 lives ago. He’s working a dead cat bounce, for the third time.
I don't know why he bothers with pinball when there is a whole wide world of crypto willing to embrace his viewpoints. And when one coin or NFT proves to be a scam, there is always another waiting in the wings to self promulgate.
Finally got to flip through the auction.
Prediction: The deeproot gym sells for more than the assorted pinball parts.
Quoted from SantaEatsCheese:Prediction: The deeproot gym sells for more than the assorted pinball parts.
If only people were that practical.
The good judge Xavier has rendered his judgment (on the motion to stay the SEC case), denying most of Bobby's motion. Non-Bobby discovery can finally proceed. Let the good times roll.
deeproot-sec-48-2022.03.17.pdf
And speaking of good times, who's going to tomorrow morning's expedited Turner Logic hearing? If it involves even a modest fraction of our thread's scrutiny regarding Chris Turner and Robert's close and longstanding relationship, things could get spicy.
Red Alert. Red Alert. This is not a test.
For tomorrow's Turner Logic related hearing, anyone interested in presenting details regarding the extent of the Turner Logic - Deeproot / Policy Services Inc. connection is welcome to do so.
Screen Shot 2022-03-17 at 12.00.45 PM (resized).png
Of course, if such details are shared by those named in the witness list, that won't be necessary. Looking at those names, however, I'm not optimistic.
So, for real, anyone up to the task?
Friday, March 18, 2 pm cst, link to join: https://us-courts.webex.com/meet/Parker
Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:Ice is like a cat in this thread, that doesn’t realize his 9th life exited 2 or 3 lives ago. He’s working a dead cat bounce, for the third time.
Gee, I’m sorry you don’t like that I hope things will work out for people. 
Some of you guys may not like it but the innocent investors in the 575 fund that were sold by advisors can get restitution from them.
I’m just looking to score a few chairs and a whiteboard and watch the show as it wraps up. 
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:Red Alert. Red Alert. This is not a test.
For tomorrow's Turner Logic related hearing, anyone interested in presenting details regarding the extent of the Turner Logic - Deeproot / Policy Services Inc. connection is welcome to do so.
[quoted image]
Of course, if such details are shared by those named in the witness list, that won't be necessary. Looking at those names, however, I'm not optimistic.
So, for real, anyone up to the task?
Friday, March 18, 10 am cst, link to join: https://us-courts.webex.com/meet/Parker
[quoted image]
I think I know the connection with Yost but don’t want to say just yet. Have to confirm it. Call is in
Quoted from iceman44:I think I know the connection with Yost but don’t want to say just yet. Have to confirm it. Call is in
Well if there's an undisclosed Yost connection to Robert / Policy Services / Deeproot too, even more reason for folks to show up at the hearing. Doubt seriously the judge will have any clue about this stuff if just going off what's in the filing and doesn't recognize the need to ask more about relationships than what was disclosed.
Quoted from TreyBo69:I’ll be busy tomorrow if someone else wants to summarize
And I'll be at the airport. We'll need other sewer dwellers to step (and perhaps even speak) up.
Quoted from toyotaboy:Their promo video is also... something
13 whopping subscribers too!
I don't even get this system. It's like they have a checkout system for payment, but it's on the honor system? Has this guy ever worked in corporate america? There's a reason why most companies hire vending machine companies.
Just checking out the vid. Caught a partial glimpse of something in the background which allowed me to figure out where it was filmed (https://geekdom.com/). Video was from 2016. A couple years later, I bet it would have been filmed at deeproot HQ and we'd have some fun frames to analyze for a look behind the scenes.
Oh, and if they need help with their social media presence, I know a guy. Rather, a girl: https://www.facebook.com/dfgm.au/
I can’t remember, but every time I read stalking horse agreement I go wtf. What is it again? And why would someone want to stalk horses?
Hey guys, might be the biggest ask in the world, if I was to bid on the auction can anyone assist me to have something picked up from auction house and I need it dropped off at spookys warehouse... Or can advise on a shipping/trucking company that can do that move for me...... international bidder if i can get help. thanks all
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:I can’t remember, but every time I read stalking horse agreement I go wtf. What is it again? And why would someone want to stalk horses?
Quoted from richierich85:Hey guys, might be the biggest ask in the world, if I was to bid on the auction can anyone assist me to have something picked up from auction house and I need it dropped off at spookys warehouse... Or can advise on a shipping/trucking company that can do that move for me...... international bidder if i can get help. thanks all
Obviously you don't want to tip your hand what you're bidding on but before anyone volunteers they're really going to need to know the scale. Makes a big difference whether you're talking a box of water bottles or a 2 head CNC router!
PETA has called on the NFL to change the name of the horse-collar tackle. The group said that the name “makes light of using tight harnesses to exploit horses for labor.”
https://thespun.com/nfl/peta-wants-the-nfl-to-change-one-of-its-tackle-names
Question for the Sewer Dwelling Legal Team:
In these Stalking Horse agreements, does having insider info or a conflict of interest factor into a court's decision to approve the sale of assets? In the example below it says that "the debtor took the somewhat unusual step [in] seeking the appointment of an examiner to investigate the appropriateness.... of the sale"
"In the Medical Software Solutions case the Utah bankruptcy court found "good-faith purchaser" status where an insider was the stalking horse/lender. In Medical Software, the stalking horse/lender was a pre-petition investor in, and later a pre-petition lender to, the debtor. As the debtor slid into financial distress and a management dispute, the debtor hired an investment banker to sell the business, which attempted for about a year to market the company, without success. With no "white knight" in sight, the debtor filed a chapter 11 case and sought leave to sell the business to the pre-petition investor/lenders (who also had had representatives on the debtor's board). The debtor took the somewhat unusual step of seeking the appointment of an examiner to investigate the appropriateness of the DIP financing to be provided by the pre-petition investor, as well as the proposed sale to the same group (DF lenders), specifically to preempt any issues of conflict of interest. The DIP financing required a sale within 60 days of the filing, or a default would occur."
Followup: Is there a way (other than asking this question on the WebEx) to let someone know that the TuYo Holdings connection is suspicious? An email address, perhaps? I don't think I have a big enough set of cajones to speak up on the WebEx and identify myself as "Some guy from the internet."
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:Red Alert. Red Alert. This is not a test.
For tomorrow's Turner Logic related hearing, anyone interested in presenting details regarding the extent of the Turner Logic - Deeproot / Policy Services Inc. connection is welcome to do so.
[quoted image]
Of course, if such details are shared by those named in the witness list, that won't be necessary. Looking at those names, however, I'm not optimistic.
So, for real, anyone up to the task?
Friday, March 18, 10 am cst, link to join: https://us-courts.webex.com/meet/Parker
[quoted image]
15 minutes in and the courtroom is still empty and dark. Was it rescheduled?
Quoted from ForceFlow:15 minutes in and the courtroom is still empty and dark. Was it rescheduled?
Isn't it 2pm CST?
My bad. I got the time mixed up at some point. Apologies!
The hearing today looks to be for 2 pm CST.
If parties wish to appear via video conference they may do so by following the instructions at the following link:
https://www.txwb.uscourts.gov/sites/txwb/files/bankruptcy-courtroom-guidelines-for-webex-wdtx-rev20211029.pdf
The link to Judge Parker’s WebEx connection is:
https://us-courts.webex.com/meet/Parker
PLEASE TAKE NOTICE that the Court has set an expedited hearing on the Trustee’s Motion to Approve (A) Sale of Life Insurance Policies, (B) Sale Procedures, Stalking Horse Agreement and Bid Protections in Connection with the Sale of Property of the Estate of Policy Services, Inc. and (C) the Form of Notice for the Sale of Property of the Estate of Policy Services, Inc. [ECF No. 78] (the “Sale and Procedure Motion”), for March 18, 2022 at 2:00 p..m. before the Honorable Michael M. Parker, United States Bankruptcy Court, Courtroom No. 1, Thirdh Floor, 615 E. Houston St., San Antonio, Texas 78205.
Quoted from ForceFlow:15 minutes in and the courtroom is still empty and dark.
At least you got there early enough to get a good seat.
Just because I had to dig to find the links again:
SEC court case filings:
https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/60223430/securities-and-exchange-commission-v-mueller/
Bankruptcy case filings:
https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/61608049/deeproot-capital-management-llc/
Quoted from littlecammi:At least you got there early enough to get a good seat.
Woohoo 
Quoted from JodyG:Isn't it 2pm CST?
Yep, had to go back into a previous court filing to confirm that. 2pm CST.
pasted_image (resized).pngQuoted from JStoltz:Question for the Sewer Dwelling Legal Team:
Followup: Is there a way (other than asking this question on the WebEx) to let someone know that the TuYo Holdings connection is suspicious? An email address, perhaps? I don't think I have a big enough set of cajones to speak up on the WebEx and identify myself as "Some guy from the internet."
There actually may well be: having joined the webex meeting at the wrong time today, I was able to see that there was a chat box with no apparent restrictions on participants' usage. Unless that changes during in advance of the hearing itself (and my guess would be it does not), you could try submitting your question in writing there (as webex participants are listed as a party, the last one, who can make statements).
The site also allows you to participate as a guest, so you can set your name to be whatever you want it to be (not suggesting you do something ridiculous, just that you are under no obligation to write out your full name).
The good thing about going this route is you could neatly type up your question or statement well in advance, not having to worry about flubbing it out loud during the call. What would you want to say?
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:What would you want to say?
I'll go back and organize my thoughts better ("my" thoughts just being a mashup of others' thoughts in the previous page or two), but something along the lines of the following seems appropriate
"If Chris Turner is affiliated with TuYo (Turner-Yost), and Chris Turner also managed investment and life policy data for deeproot while it was in operation (TurnerLogic), then it would be reasonable to suggest that TuYo has privileged/insider information into the mortality of individuals covered by these life policies (and therefore their value). My concern is that TuYo may be in a position to profit considerably by purchasing these policies at a lower price, resulting in less money recoverable for return to defrauded investors and creditors."
This makes a few assumptions obviously (I think most of this line of thought comes from 
Inside and their comments about TurnerLogic's involvement at deeproot ), but I'd argue it's worth someone (Trustee?) doing the due diligence.
Post from Inside I'm referring to here: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/twip-is-deeproot-the-next-misadventure-or-a-pinball-revolution/page/583#post-6832264
Quoted from iceman44:I think I know the connection with Yost but don’t want to say just yet. Have to confirm it. Call is in
Also iceman44 seems to have a lead on Yost that he hasn't yet disclosed; I would hope he might be able to discover/share that in advance of the 2pm CST hearing today if there's a chance that it is relevant and time sensitive.
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:There actually may well be: having joined the webex meeting at the wrong time today, I was able to see that there was a chat box with no apparent restrictions on participants' usage.
You should have tried on the judge's robe with no one around.
Quoted from JStoltz:I'll go back and organize my thoughts better ("my" thoughts just being a mashup of others' thoughts in the previous page or two), but something along the lines of the following seems appropriate
"If Chris Turner is affiliated with TuYo (Turner-Yost), and Chris Turner also managed investment and life policy data for deeproot while it was in operation (TurnerLogic), then it would be reasonable to suggest that TuYo has privileged/insider information into the mortality of individuals covered by these life policies (and therefore their value). My concern is that TuYo may be in a position to profit considerably by purchasing these policies at a lower price, resulting in less money recoverable for return to defrauded investors and creditors."
This makes a few assumptions obviously (I think most of this line of thought comes from Inside and their comments about TurnerLogic's involvement at deeproot ), but I'd argue it's worth someone (Trustee?) doing the due diligence.
Post from Inside I'm referring to here: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/twip-is-deeproot-the-next-misadventure-or-a-pinball-revolution/page/583#post-6832264Also iceman44 seems to have a lead on Yost that he hasn't yet disclosed; I would hope he might be able to discover/share that in advance of the 2pm CST hearing today if there's a chance that it is relevant and time sensitive.
Sounds good. Lawyers can likely assist with most effective way. My thought was to say it seems like the disclosure of Chris Turner's relationship with the debtor grossly understates the reality of the situation, based only what you can glean from publicly available information (statements from debtor, deeproot / policy services inc websites, that for years Turner Logic used dr HQ address as their own in many places online, including their own website within the past month). It's your understanding that Chris Turner / Turner Logic built the financial systems for policy services / deeproot, made other websites for RM for years, was in charge of the programming for all of deeproot pinball, which includes creating the underlying systems and code for dozens of in development titles per RM, etc.
See if the judge is satisfied he has been provided sufficient information to make an informed judgment on this expedited hearing.
Quoted from toyotaboy:Their promo video is also... something
13 whopping subscribers too!
I don't even get this system. It's like they have a checkout system for payment, but it's on the honor system? Has this guy ever worked in corporate america? There's a reason why most companies hire vending machine companies.
Um.....
I work for a top 25 company in the Fortune 500. Our snacks room (which hasn't been refilled since COVID started) is entirely the honor system. Like you just pick up the stuff, walk over to the scanner and pay at the terminal. Non-manned. You could just put something in a bag and walk out. If they even have cameras in there, it's very well hidden.
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:Sounds good. Lawyers can likely assist with most effective way. My thought was to say it seems like the disclosure of Chris Turner's relationship with the debtor grossly understates the reality of the situation, based only what you can glean from publicly available information (statements from debtor, deeproot / policy services inc websites, that for years Turner Logic used dr HQ address as their own in many places online, including their own website within the past month). It's your understanding that Chris Turner / Turner Logic built the financial systems for policy services / deeproot, made other websites for RM for years, was in charge of the programming for all of deeproot pinball, which includes creating the underlying systems and code for dozens of in development titles per RM, etc.
See if the judge is satisfied he has been provided sufficient information to make an informed judgment on this expedited hearing.
I'll try to voice a combination of these concerns in the call if possible, but it's very likely that I won't be able to join the call today either due to work conflicts.
If anybody else is available and willing, please feel free to voice a combination of blueberryjohnson's thoughts in post 29230 and the ones I scrapped together in 29228. Just want to get the info presented, doesn't matter who it's coming from.
Quoted from JStoltz:I'll go back and organize my thoughts better ("my" thoughts just being a mashup of others' thoughts in the previous page or two), but something along the lines of the following seems appropriate
"If Chris Turner is affiliated with TuYo (Turner-Yost), and Chris Turner also managed investment and life policy data for deeproot while it was in operation (TurnerLogic), then it would be reasonable to suggest that TuYo has privileged/insider information into the mortality of individuals covered by these life policies (and therefore their value). My concern is that TuYo may be in a position to profit considerably by purchasing these policies at a lower price, resulting in less money recoverable for return to defrauded investors and creditors."
This makes a few assumptions obviously (I think most of this line of thought comes from Inside and their comments about TurnerLogic's involvement at deeproot ), but I'd argue it's worth someone (Trustee?) doing the due diligence.
Post from Inside I'm referring to here: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/twip-is-deeproot-the-next-misadventure-or-a-pinball-revolution/page/583#post-6832264Also iceman44 seems to have a lead on Yost that he hasn't yet disclosed; I would hope he might be able to discover/share that in advance of the 2pm CST hearing today if there's a chance that it is relevant and time sensitive.
I have a call into him. Not really a lead, just want to see if he will talk about it.
Not sure about the whole Turner thing but yeah I would imagine that if they are using a 3rd party to bid on those assets in an attempt to buy them at a substantial discount based on some “insider knowledge” that would be a big issue.
I assume without following this, many other interested parties have been put on notice regarding the sale of these “assets” and could bid accordingly.
“Life settlements” are one of the LAST things I’d even consider. It would take a BIG company like Coventry to spread out the mortality risk I would think
When this whole thing started with Deeproot it was in part due to the failure Mueller was having in “Life settlements “ leading up to it.
I had posted some negative local paper articles about him on Pinside from those “life settlements” That’s the first time his IP lawyer who has since exited, called to threaten me about making those comments. 5 or 6 yrs ago?
I think I saw they valued those policies at $22 mill on the balance sheet?
While anything is possible I don’t think Greg Yost would risk his law license committing fraud. Mueller is in a league of his own fraud wise but Yost is a practicing attorney with a reputable firm. Insert lawyer jokes here
Is Yost the registered agent for “Tuyo”. Could be he just set up the LLC for his client Turner? No idea
Quoted from ForceFlow:Yep, had to go back into a previous court filing to confirm that. 2pm CST.[quoted image]
Your photo does not say CST, it says 2pm. We are not currently on standard time in the US.
Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:Your photo does not say CST, it says 2pm. We are not currently on standard time in the US.
CDT then. Whatever central time is.
Quoted from JStoltz:Still stuck on a work call; anybody able to chime in with the above insider info concerns?
I'll put up a quick bird's eye summary once this ends
Tuyo has paid $28k in premiums so far to make sure the insurance policies don't lapse. The judge noted that this was done without any court order protections, which he seemed to be impressed by.
There is about $5k in funds left to pay premiums before some can potentially start to lapse. I'm not quite sure how this was determined, why this amount, or whose money it was.
$540k deposit has been paid by Tuyo to secure the option to purchase.
$1,080,000 is the price Tuyo will pay for the sale of 135 insurance policies. Tuyo confirmed they have the ability to pay the full amount without any liquidation or fund raising.
The info on the 135 policies was obtained from office files found in deeproot offices.
The sale of the polices has not been marketed to anyone else.
Turner was sworn in and he confirmed he has no controlling interest in deeproot or in the insurance policies. He was a contractor for software development services and was not an employee of deeproot. His last invoice and payment from deeproot was paid July 2021 from deeproot.
There was some discussion about some potential issue with the policies that might not be able to be sold due to being a certain type of asset. I didn't quite follow since I was unfamiliar with the terminology. Shoddy (deeproot) record keeping seemed to be an issue to clearly determine whether or not there was a problem with legal procedures of the sale.
There are 15 boxes of paper documents from deeproot concerning the insurance policies. These would be available for inspection for any interested bidders.
This was noted to be a highly speculative investment due to the incomplete state of record keeping.
$1.25m is set as the next bid for the policies for any potential new bidders.
There will be a sale hearing scheduled for April 11 2pm central time.
Bid & sale objection notice period is 14 days and deadline will be set for April 4.
Closing for the sale is set for May 3.
Court went into recess so a few technical details could be discussed among clients concerning the sale.
Did they even ask why a software developer was suddenly interested in self-funding the sustaining effort of someone else's insurance assets? Or how he even paid the premiums if he was just some contractor?
Still stinks of rotten. Too many ties, too much 'just so happens' circumstances, little objective clear motive.
Quoted from flynnibus:Did they even ask why a software developer was suddenly interested in self-funding the sustaining effort of someone else's insurance assets? Or how he even paid the premiums if he was just some cont
No, just if he had any controlling interest in deeproot or managing the policies, and if he had been paid by deeproot within 90 days of the bankruptcy filing.
Quoted from flynnibus:Or how he even paid the premiums if he was just some contractor?
Tuyo LLC was the 2-person investment entity putting up the capital for premiums and the deposit for the sale. No specifics for who paid what beyond that was discussed.
If anyone else was listening in and can fill in any more details, please feel free. I wasn't talking word-for-word notes.
Quoted from Barr993:I listened in and was surprised there weren't more on the call.
Why would TuYo combine forces, pay $28k in premiums up front without protection and $540k escrow? There has to be a hell of an upside here.
Turner was also smiling like a creep the whole time I was able to join, which doesn’t help his case in my mind.
Quoted from frobozz:Obviously you don't want to tip your hand what you're bidding on but before anyone volunteers they're really going to need to know the scale. Makes a big difference whether you're talking a box of water bottles or a 2 head CNC router!
Sorry forgot to mention so I'm thinking of bidding on one of there raza prototype pinballs or half a cabinet or so to do a home build take on raza theme. so yeah issue is I'm from Australia and I'll need someone on that end to help pick up at auction house and get it spooky pinball. like I said happy to pay a fee for anyone's help..
Quoted from Barr993:I listened in and was surprised there weren't more on the call.
Why would TuYo combine forces, pay $28k in premiums up front without protection and $540k escrow? There has to be a hell of an upside here.
Yeah you don’t pay premiums out of your own pocket to keep the insurance in place unless you KNOW there is a big payday potential. And they have done it without even owning the policies!
135 policies? I don’t know how you possibly value those if you aren’t privy to the health data and under the HIPPA laws you can’t get it now.
The longer the 135 people live means the longer you have to pay the premiums to keep the policies in force.
I mean it’s a terrible thing imo to want to invest in. You are basically hoping people die before their life expectancy so the policy is more profitable.
For buyers like Coventry I get it, it helps some people get cash out of their death benefit while living.
But this seems shaky as shit to me.
I might want to go check the 15 boxes myself just to see what’s up.
Maybe this is Bobby’s back door payday after he bankrupted and ripped off the company?
Quoted from iceman44:Maybe this is Bobby’s back door payday after he bankrupted and ripped off the company?
The question was asked if mueller would benefit in any way from the sale of the policies, if he retained any control over the polices, or if he had a vested interest in Tuyo, and the response was no--but it seemed like there was some hesitation in the answer compared to various other questions that were asked.
Quoted from ForceFlow:The question was asked if mueller would benefit in any way from the sale of the policies, if he retained any control over the polices, or if he had a vested interest in Tuyo, and the response was no--but it seemed like there was some hesitation in the answer compared to various other questions that were asked.
I wonder if Greg Yost was there?
Technically, he would have no “vested interest”.
Would he benefit from the sale directly? No. But down the road indirectly?
There would be no way to find out and nobody left to hold him accountable once the liquidation is wrapped up.
Bobby is the one person with detailed knowledge of those 135 policies. We know it wasn’t anything pinball related that he did all day.
Versus two guys that just see an opportunity to pick up assets on the cheap based on what knowledge?
If it was Coventry buying the policies that’s one thing, and they never would because they don’t know the details on the 135 policies to put a value on it.
A couple of randos coming along with $$$ to fund these things. Why?
As of 12/31/2020 anyhow it appears, however they account for the policies, that there might be $15.8 million in death benefit on the books. Can’t really tell what number represents.
We already know Bobby is a POS so it would be exactly what he’s thinking about doing something like this
Quoted from iceman44:I wonder if Greg Yost was there?
Yes, both Yost and Turner were there.
Quoted from iceman44:Bobby is the one person with detailed knowledge of those 135 policies. We know it wasn’t anything pinball related that he did all day.
Versus two guys that just see an opportunity to pick up assets on the cheap based on what knowledge?
Mueller is pleading the 5th on everything, so on the record, he's not divulging any details.
Quoted from iceman44:A couple of randos coming along with $$$ to fund these things. Why?
I agree, this whole arrangement seems rather odd, especially when you bring in the fact about funding $28k out of pocket with no actual links of ownership/stewardship to the policies/assets.
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