(Topic ID: 203700)

deeproot Pinball thread

By pin2d

6 years ago


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#27951 2 years ago
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:

Remember this is just deeproot tech's filing - we also have deeproot pinball, deeproot studios, deeproot funds, policy services, wizard mode, and like 3 or 4 fund-specific llcs to go

Yes, I love that list of payments being made to a bunch of different "conpanies" that are all suspiciously going to the same P.O. box.

#27952 2 years ago

The G-force lawsuit was against the company that provided the PCB equipment. The owner didn’t show up in court so there was a default judgment. It looks like G-force folded up shop, but I guess deeproot was trying to go against the guy personally by piercing the corporate veil.

#27953 2 years ago

If you're interested in seeing the deeproot pinball, studios, etc filings shared to the thread sooner rather than later and up for removing the home info of pinball community members like I did for deeproot tech, shoot me a dm and I'll give you a doc.

No worries if no takers - I'll get to them eventually, though I don't know how soon.

#27954 2 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Remember when Deep Root pledged to give out T-shirts celebrating their hammer-proof playfield, and mocking the quotes of Pinside hammer test naysayers? The best part was the handful of Deep Root cultists proudly declaring they'd sent in their quotes and how awesome these playfields were gonna be. One guy was excited he now wouldn't have to send in his Deep Root playfield to get clearcoated.
That actually happened! And then they revealed their disastrous Orbiter One style clearcoat and we never heard about the hammer proof playfields - or those dumb t-shirts - again!
It really summed up Deep Root. Focus on the little things, like picking fights with your critics, rather than the big things, like playfields, clearcoats, actually manufacturing pinball machines....

so .... I am not getting my shirt

#27955 2 years ago

SEC files a response to Robert's motion to stay the case.

In this layperson's assessment of the arguments, the SEC lawyers are Stern and the deeproot lawyers are, well, deeproot.

deeproot-sec-36-2022.01.14.pdfdeeproot-sec-36-2022.01.14.pdf

I know how Judge Blueberry would rule on this one!

#27956 2 years ago

It occurs to me that while we all enjoy this drawn-out taking down of a scroundrel, the real pity (besides little old ladies being out their retirement nest eggs) is the pinball goodness that could have been, had it all been managed by someone with the ability to do it right.

It's insane how it's exponentially worse than Jplop, which was exponentially worse than KK.

There's got to be a book, if not a movie, worth of material in all this.

Then again, perhaps we shouldn't go there, the stink might rub off on pinball in general in the public's eyes... or noses, whatever!

Was RM all that charismatic? I've never bothered to watch any video of the guy.

#27957 2 years ago
Quoted from TreyBo69:

Guys don’t worry. I’m sure the hubris of Robert “running” a pinball company will carry over to his “defense” of making said pinball company.

I said this the other day, and after reading the SEC's rebutal to his stay request I felt like bringing this back up. They thoroughly trashed his argument and even pointed out some of the basis of his argument actually meant the opposite.

Dude really was bottom of his class at a bottom tier law school.

#27958 2 years ago

Sometimes it seems we can be hyperbolic in this thread, but it still stunned me to see "many of them elderly" and "entire life savings" listed in that court document.

17
#27959 2 years ago
Quoted from DanQverymuch:

Was RM all that charismatic? I've never bothered to watch any video of the guy.

No, he was not. Just watch the pathetic PinPod reveal video or anything else he ever did on tape. He stammers over his words, has zero ability to read the room, and just regurgitates mind-numbing buzzword mumbo jumbo while punctuating every other sentence fragment with a drawn out "M...kay..."

When he wasn't doing softball interviews where he just repeated the same rehearsed talking points he was about as coherent as some of his team's legal arguments.

It just shows you how ready many in this community were to become easy marks for yet another keyboard commando. That a guy so witless, so charmless, and armed only with a friendly pinball media thirsty for content and an overflowing basket of meaningless new-tech buzzwords could get so far really says something.

Not sure what it says...this is not a new story. By most accounts, Charles Ponzi was an absolute "financial moron" and really not a very bright guy at all. People just want to believe, especially if the new messiah is "telling it like it is" and sticking it to folks' imagined enemies. In this case, the "bad guys" were Stern and to a lesser extent JJP.

RM told certain people what they wanted to hear and they bought it. It was way too easy.

#27960 2 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

No, he was not. Just watch the pathetic PinPod reveal video or anything else he ever did on tape. He stammers over his words, has zero ability to read the room, and just regurgitates mind-numbing buzzword mumbo jumbo while punctuating every other sentence fragment with a drawn out "M...kay..."
When he wasn't doing softball interviews where he was permitted to type out whatever he wanted at his leisure, he was about as coherent as some of his team's legal arguments.
It just shows you how ready many in this community were to become easy marks for yet another keyboard commando. That a guy so witless, so charmless, and armed only with a friendly pinball media thirsty for content and an overflowing basket of meaningless new-tech buzzwords could get so far really says something.
Not sure what it says...this is not a new story. By most accounts, Charles Ponzi was an absolute "financial moron" and really not a very bright guy at all. People just want to believe, especially if the new messiah is "telling it like it is" and sticking it to folks' imagined enemies. In this case, the "bad guys" were Stern and to a lesser extent JJP.
RM told certain people what they wanted to hear and they bought it. It was way too easy.

Hey now, don't forget how he legally bullied people into silence too.

#27961 2 years ago
Quoted from TreyBo69:

I said this the other day, and after reading the SEC's rebutal to his stay request I felt like bringing this back up. They thoroughly trashed his argument and even pointed out some of the basis of his argument actually meant the opposite.
Dude really was bottom of his class at a bottom tier law school.

According to https://www.texasbar.com/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Find_A_Lawyer&template=/Customsource/MemberDirectory/MemberDirectoryDetail.cfm&ContactID=205620, RM's specialty is "Wills-Trusts-Probate". He's also shown as not being admitted to practice law in any other courts (federal or otherwise).

So I hope that he's letting his hired lawyers who specialize in federal securities fraud litigation write up motions instead of trying to pen them himself.

Apparently he's still being represented by Jay Hullings - who is pretty fancy (previous post: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/twip-is-deeproot-the-next-misadventure-or-a-pinball-revolution/page/486#post-6461575). Someone said he had to downgrade his representation, but that doesn't appear to be the case -- he merely has many sets of lawyers working on different types of cases (civil, bankruptcy, possibly criminal).

But who knows -- maybe he has a hand in writing them himself -- or maybe his lawyers aren't expecting the prosecution to read the cases that they're quoting -- or they're throwing a hail mary.

Still, that is an epic smack back from the SEC.

Quoted from frolic:

Sometimes it seems we can be hyperbolic in this thread, but it still stunned me to see "many of them elderly" and "entire life savings" listed in that court document.

I suspect that the SEC has strong documentation backing those words up.

#27962 2 years ago

I wouldn't blame the hired lawyers for the overall quality of arguments put forth both because 1) one imagines Robert may well be as good a defendant as he was a CEO and 2) you can only polish a turd so much.

I made the comment about the lawyer downgrade. I don't recall for which case / situation I got that impression (it's hard to keep up) or on what basis. I thought the switch came about following the asset freeze and the far limited ability to access funds. Could certainly be mistaken!

#27963 2 years ago

I think Robert's main lawyer is his law school buddy. They have a history together. He could be just as dumb as Robert if he isn't the one making the thrust of the argument. (Or whatever paralegals and interns they put on this dog of a case)

#27964 2 years ago

Was free money given out to Texas companies when it snowed a bunch?

Wondering if that's what these are about (from deeproot tech and policy services, respectively)

Screen Shot 2022-01-14 at 2.32.58 PM (resized).pngScreen Shot 2022-01-14 at 2.32.58 PM (resized).png

Screen Shot 2022-01-14 at 2.33.10 PM (resized).pngScreen Shot 2022-01-14 at 2.33.10 PM (resized).png

And if you say "that's probably related to PPP" then I would say "it's probably not" because we also have these, separately (this time from deeproot studios and policy services, respectively):

Screen Shot 2022-01-14 at 2.35.40 PM (resized).pngScreen Shot 2022-01-14 at 2.35.40 PM (resized).png

Screen Shot 2022-01-14 at 2.35.47 PM (resized).pngScreen Shot 2022-01-14 at 2.35.47 PM (resized).png

-3
#27965 2 years ago
Quoted from Mr68:

This thread was created in 2017 and you joined Pinside in 2020.
And your very first comment in this entire thread was 4 months ago AFTER the SEC announcement.

""The first few years"" with you joining in 2020? Really?? Subsequent posts from you have been bold comments with you pretending you knew all along. Again, after the fact.
This is how conspiracys begin. Some guy scans the headline's, fills in the blanks with a plausible, but bullshit narrative and speaks with such authority that people believe it.
Maybe change your handle to Ice Jr.

Quoted from Mr68:

This thread was created in 2017 and you joined Pinside in 2020.
And your very first comment in this entire thread was 4 months ago AFTER the SEC announcement.

""The first few years"" with you joining in 2020? Really?? Subsequent posts from you have been bold comments with you pretending you knew all along. Again, after the fact.
This is how conspiracys begin. Some guy scans the headline's, fills in the blanks with a plausible, but bullshit narrative and speaks with such authority that people believe it.
Maybe change your handle to Ice Jr.

Who cares when I joined? I've been collecting since the early 90's and have been involved in pins before that. Look at how many times you have posted on here, get a life!!!! I simply commented why didnt anyone say anything and all you dog piled on like you have something to prove. Seriously, get a life! I asked innocently and typically all the know it all A-Holes jumped on like they had to be keyboard commando morons like always. I didnt post "boldly", I am speaking based on basic principles in business and human decency. Typical pinball keyboard warrior though right, maybe you should change your handle to I don't have a life outside of pin threads

#27966 2 years ago
Quoted from Roostking:

Umm, we determined something was missing years ago. I get what your saying, but without any sort of proof, what are the employees supposed to do? Quit in protest? The best explanation to me is that people thought RM was some rich idiot with money to blow, who he is/was, but it wasn't his money come to find out. Early on, he said it was his money though. While it was a slow implosion, it really accelerated at the end and thats when everything came into view for everyone, employees included and some did quit.
Anyway, the saga continues.

Fair points, who knows. Hopefully its dead and buried at this point but I'm sure there are tons of legal crap to sort out

#27967 2 years ago
Quoted from mbeardsley:

But how much of that $60 million really got spent on salaries and equipment, and how much got moved to a Cayman Islands bank account for RM?

If he moved cash like that he would not have paid for all that shit in Hawaii with company funds. Dude is the dumbest criminal evah…

#27968 2 years ago
Quoted from Hoteldrummer:

maybe you should change your handle to I don't have a life outside of pin threads

Hell, maybe I should change my handle too.

Pinball is my life :/

18
#27969 2 years ago
Quoted from Hoteldrummer:

Who cares when I joined? I've been collecting since the early 90's and have been involved in pins before that. Look at how many times you have posted on here, get a life!!!! I simply commented why didnt anyone say anything and all you dog piled on like you have something to prove. Seriously, get a life! I asked innocently and typically all the know it all A-Holes jumped on like they had to be keyboard commando morons like always. I didnt post "boldly", I am speaking based on basic principles in business and human decency. Typical pinball keyboard warrior though right, maybe you should change your handle to I don't have a life outside of pin threads

Now that you have established a debate timeline, I will respond in 3 weeks.

#27970 2 years ago
Quoted from Mr68:

Now that you have established a debate timeline, I will respond in 3 weeks!

When the time comes, be sure not to use your keyboard, lest you be deemed a keyboard commando!

Also, might I suggest downplaying the significance of the disagreement and claiming the delay was due to you having better things to do? Perhaps pepper in a few jabs about “having a life?”

#27972 2 years ago

Learning a little something about bankruptcy proceedings has opened up new finds.

Lots of interesting items in Zidware's late 2019 filings including significant deeproot presence.

zidware-modified-2019.11.22.pdfzidware-modified-2019.11.22.pdf

Deleted many pages from the original doc (lots of home addresses). Here's a partial screenshot of note from one of them:

zidware-americanpinball (resized).pngzidware-americanpinball (resized).png

22
#27973 2 years ago

I haven’t posted in 5 or 6 months as pinball traditionally takes a back seat to my other hobbies during the summer and in the fall I changed careers which has kept me busy but has been very exciting! I was not hiding with my tail between my legs or anything like that as some have suggested, just very disappointed and disgusted when I found out what Robert Mueller was really up to behind the scenes...I honestly did not see that coming and left me speechless.

Hoteldrummer you are barking up the wrong tree with regards to @mr68. Kim is good people and we became friends even though we were on opposing sides of the deeproot saga. He was always respectful when we debated things and truly hoped that things would work out for me.

Just for the record...I was very aware of all the red flags and knew I was taking a big risk when I put my $589.90 deposit down on a RAZA arcade edition. My main reasons for taking that risk was I really liked the theme and art package a lot, I liked their fresh take on pinball such as the ultra-wide display and yes, even the Pinbar. And lastly, the extensive staff of well known pinball veterans gave me confidence and hope that this might actually happen. It was very simple, I went after something I thought looked really cool and it didn’t work out. I was not looking for a winning lottery ticket like some have suggested, I just took a chance on trying to own what I thought was an awesome looking pin.

I truly feel bad for everyone that got screwed by Robert Mueller, the “little old ladies”, all of his staff for all of their efforts that most likely will never see the light of day, and any other investors or supporters. There is a special place for people like RM.

Finally, my refund for my RAZA deposit through Citicard was initially approved, but then after they requested additional paperwork, that decision was reversed. Bummer...lesson learned.

I hope everyone reading this has a great 2022! As promised to all the deeproot critics and skeptics...

39D613CB-9534-4653-B63E-87CE93FA51EC (resized).jpeg39D613CB-9534-4653-B63E-87CE93FA51EC (resized).jpeg

#27974 2 years ago

AP being a large creditor was known. But for what?

Did they charge Zidware for the 25 Magic Girls they made?

Maybe John got them to build the Magic Girls against royalties on the "sure fire hit" Houdini. When that game was revealed to be a fraud Zidware was then on the hook for money spent?

#27975 2 years ago
Quoted from DanQverymuch:

Was RM all that charismatic? I've never bothered to watch any video of the guy.

Only to idiots who fall for obvious narcissistic sociopath conmen.

#27976 2 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

Did they charge Zidware for the 25 Magic Girls they made?

John didn't pay for squat, so that is clearly part of, if not all of it.

#27977 2 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

Only to idiots who fall for obvious narcissistic sociopath conmen.

No shortage of idiots around. Seem to be born every minute.

#27978 2 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

AP being a large creditor was known. But for what?
Did they charge Zidware for the 25 Magic Girls they made?
Maybe John got them to build the Magic Girls against royalties on the "sure fire hit" Houdini. When that game was revealed to be a fraud Zidware was then on the hook for money spent?

I like that deeproot is the largest zidware creditor and the only secured one.

#27979 2 years ago
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:

I like that deeproot is the largest zidware creditor and the only secured one.

As discussed before, it was so Robert could pick the Zidware corpse of “value”

Joke is on him

#27980 2 years ago
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:

I like that deeproot is the largest zidware creditor and the only secured one.

Deeproot wanted first dibs on what they hoped would be gotcha patents (to troll with)

My question is HOW did DR funnel 500k into Zidware?

#27981 2 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

Deeproot wanted first dibs on what they hoped would be gotcha patents (to troll with)
My question is HOW did DR funnel 500k into Zidware?

Deeproot and Zidware saying they did does not mean they actually did.
I woudn't put it past them to set up a fictional secured debt to give Deeproot seniority on claims, freezing out Zidware's real creditors with both Deeproot and Zidware knowing the fictional claim would never be paid.

#27982 2 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

Deeproot wanted first dibs on what they hoped would be gotcha patents (to troll with)
My question is HOW did DR funnel 500k into Zidware?

Wouldn’t it just be loan JPop 500k of little old lady money for some of his many debts and legal fees?

#27983 2 years ago

Is it possible that Deeproot effectively "charged" Zidware for the refund money that they sent out to some previous Zidware customers?

How many people actually got a cash refund? I know that there were at least a few.

#27984 2 years ago
Quoted from mbeardsley:

Is it possible that Deeproot effectively "charged" Zidware for the refund money that they sent out to some previous Zidware customers?
How many people actually got a cash refund? I know that there were at least a few.

They chose... Wisely.

#27985 2 years ago
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:

Learning a little something about bankruptcy proceedings has opened up new finds.
Lots of interesting items in Zidware's late 2019 filings including significant deeproot presence.
[quoted image]
Deleted many pages from the original doc (lots of home addresses). Here's a partial screenshot of note from one of them:
[quoted image]

Reading through the Zidware document- one thing i didn't understand is the licensing contract Zidware had with deeproot? Isn't the IP for magic girl & Raza currently owned by a pinsider? Did Jpop sell the same thing multiple times?

#27986 2 years ago
Quoted from Stuieb84:

Reading through the Zidware document- one thing i didn't understand is the licensing contract Zidware had with deeproot? Isn't the IP for magic girl & Raza currently owned by a pinsider? Did Jpop sell the same thing multiple times?

You know, it's funny. Some people believe zidware and deeproot engaged in dirty dealings:

jpop-complaint.pdfjpop-complaint.pdf

whereas others do not:

jpop-complaint-answer.pdfjpop-complaint-answer.pdf

What do you all think?

#27987 2 years ago
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:

You know, it's funny. Some people believe zidware and deeproot engaged in dirty dealings:
[quoted image]
whereas others do not:
[quoted image]
What do you all think?

Do you have a copy of the judgement outcome? I would love to read. The whole thing sounds pretty suspect

#27988 2 years ago
Quoted from Stuieb84:

Do you have a copy of the judgement outcome? I would love to read. The whole thing sounds pretty suspect

It does not appear a judgment has been rendered, and one may never be (see below).

Since the filing of that document, there have been coming up on two years of discovery extensions granted.

There have also been a handful hearings. Pacer does not provide access to transcripts or notes from hearings (which is why we benefit from sitting in on zoom when they happen). However, we can sometimes pick up a few entertaining tidbits about what transpired during the hearings from motions filed after them. For example:

jpop-2021.09.16.pdfjpop-2021.09.16.pdf

The latest in the case (https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/16689759/mitchell-v-popadiuk/), as of Jan 7, is that discovery is scheduled to end Jan 27, 2022.

Props to the poster(s) in this thread who continue to keep up the legal fight. Per the court docs, their lawyers expect a settlement imminently:

jpop-2021.12.15.pdfjpop-2021.12.15.pdf

No idea in lawyer time how soon 'imminent' represents.

I suppose if there is in fact a settlement, we shouldn't expect the judge in this case to weigh in on the uprightness of the zidware -> deeproot ip transfers / licensing.

16
#27989 2 years ago
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:

Props to the poster(s) in this thread who continue to keep up the legal fight. Per the court docs, their lawyers expect a settlement imminently:

Thanks.
We have continued plodding forward all along but now at a greater pace with recent developments. And I'm cautiously optimistic at this point.
But this isn't my first rodeo and I've seen people act last minute stupid before.

#27990 2 years ago

Thanks Blueberryjohnson. This is quite interesting stuff

#27991 2 years ago
Quoted from Stuieb84:

Thanks Blueberryjohnson. This is quite interesting stuff

Totally agree. I particularly like this one (https://o.pinside.com/a/2a/38/a2a381d05a30f1cbaaea0d49097e141ee086df82.pdf) beginning on page 4.

Highly encourage those who haven't already checked it out to give it a read. Very easy (and fun!) to picture jpop doing and saying these things.

#27992 2 years ago
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:

Totally agree. I particularly like this one (https://o.pinside.com/a/2a/38/a2a381d05a30f1cbaaea0d49097e141ee086df82.pdf) beginning on page 4.
Highly encourage those who haven't already checked it out to give it a read. Very easy (and fun!) to picture jpop doing and saying these things.

Such great stuff! My favorite part was this:

The Defendant declined to answer questions about his pay because he’s subject to a NonDisclosure Agreement (He said the pinball industry is extremely competitive and he does not want to run afoul of his contractual obligation. His sincerity is not in dispute).

#27993 2 years ago

I feel like someone at some point found JPop was paid around 70k/yr

#27994 2 years ago
01 (resized).png01 (resized).png02 (resized).png02 (resized).png03 (resized).png03 (resized).png
#27995 2 years ago
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:

[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

Not a good look. My guess how things went:

RM: Come work for me.

JPOP: I have legal issues that need a solvin!

RM: I will solve it all and cover all the legal stuff. No worries bruh!

JPOP: Will you pay me?

RM: All is good just trust me dawg! We aren't here to talk numbers. We are going to take over pinball!

#27996 2 years ago

That's assuming the Magic Girl and RAZA IP have value.

They don't.

#27997 2 years ago

I also find it interesting (humorous?) that JPop filed a defamation suit against the plaintiffs. Wonder how that is going....

#27998 2 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

That's assuming the Magic Girl and RAZA IP have value.
They don't.

Does J-Pop actually own those IP's? I thought there was some debate on that matter as well.

#27999 2 years ago
Quoted from JodyG:

Does J-Pop actually own those IP's? I thought there was some debate on that matter as well.

Yeah I think Bill Brandes may own that useless shit, which is why he isn't trying too hard to get involved.

#28000 2 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

That's assuming the Magic Girl and RAZA IP have value.
They don't.

Well, from a legal standpoint they probably do have "value", in that they are officially assets.
As to whether they have any practical value to some other potential manufacturer, that's a different issue.

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