(Topic ID: 203700)

deeproot Pinball thread


By pin2d

2 years ago



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#2701 1 year ago
Quoted from Richthofen:

That's interesting to me, mostly because the expensive part of pinball machines these days are not the parts, it's the labor. Paying workers by the hour to hand-solder components, manually hammer in t-nuts, and build complicated wiring looms (now with more wire so you can cantilever out the playfield 5 feet!) is the big cost.

No it's not for machines built in a proper factory building at scale. Labor is the part that is most difficult to ramp up initially and is expensive if you are not Sustaining volume. It's the factor you can control and drive down with efficiencies and processes... so that's why it's such a focus. Because unlike a component cost you source, it's something you can actually influence and optimize quite significantly.

Labor is high operating overhead... it's not necessarily high cost per unit.

#2702 1 year ago
Quoted from gstellenberg:

It's quite wrong, at least for the majority of manufacturers

I would agree that MOST manufacturers of almost anything else besides a pinball machine have lower labor costs than input costs (and lower them mostly by moving the labor to places with lower wages and by automating the labor).

But... Pinball is made by hand mostly in the USA. In the United States, labor is high in price relatively speaking. Sure, they've made incremental improvements (Spike and the node board setup, plus LEDs over socketed lamps) in reducing labor costs, but I don't see any sort of revolution that suddenly changes the number of hours to assemble a pinball machine.

I do not run a factory, so my take is purely conjecture. But I did do a playfield swap on a Taxi pinball machine. It took probably a hundred hours. I had plenty of help too. And the swap didn't have to build the harness.

26
#2703 1 year ago
Quoted from Richthofen:

I do not run a factory, so my take is purely conjecture. But I did do a playfield swap on a Taxi pinball machine. It took probably a hundred hours. I had plenty of help too. And the swap didn't have to build the harness.

Well, I DO run a pinball factory. I write the checks to our vendors, and I write the checks to our staff. I also designed the P-ROC control system that many MFGS are using, helped most of the new pinball companies get off the ground (in one way or another), architected the modular P3 pinball machine to address many of the points brought up in the last couple of pages of this thread, and personally built at least a handful of every sub-assembly and of every playfield that goes into our machines. I have a handle on the economics and the trade-offs with modular systems.

That said, it's content that sells. Make a compelling game that connects with a good portion of the community, and it'll sell regardless of the platform model. It should just sell for a much lower price and be a lot more manageable if it's a well-designed game kit instead of a full machine. That certainly doesn't mean people couldn't buy a full machine with every game they buy; they just wouldn't have to.

- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

#2704 1 year ago

Has deeproot made any mention of showing a finished or proto machine after they announced that there wouldn’t be any at TPF?

#2705 1 year ago
Quoted from ultimategameroom:

Has deeproot made any mention of showing a finished or proto machine after they announced that there wouldn’t be any at TPF?

From what I hear, it'll be done when it's done. TPF was obviously the best place to show something since it's a short drive. To show games at say MGC or expo would be a heck of a drive (both for the games and the employees). Sure, you can reveal a pinball anytime (just look at Stern releasing black knight 2 days after TPF), but at some point you have to bring games to a show so people can play them, especially if you're a new pinball company earning trust.

#2706 1 year ago
Quoted from Richthofen:

Pinball is made by hand mostly in the USA. In the United States, labor is high in price relatively speaking.

There is still plenty of assembly done here. The trick is speed.

Your pf swap example is bad because it's nothing like production. In production you take away all variations and hesitation as much as possible. Take away reaching for other parts... tools... looking up where it goes... or with what hardware etc. That's the entire point of their station based assembly line. Small repeatable steps that are each optimized. Why you use pre staged sub assemblies etc.

Changes to things like lightboards vs individual sockets... IDC connectors, etc these are examples of engineering for efficiency.

It's expensive to people who can't sustain a full time manufacturing plant or afford to engineer and optimize for production. Companies like stern have professionals that do just that...

#2707 1 year ago

It would be difficult to convince me that the patent was ever explored seriously.

It looks like a classic JPop car-with-rectangular-wheels design.

They'd have to be paying all their industry veterans through the nose to get them to stifle their laughter long enough to do any work on it.

#2708 1 year ago

Dennis and Barry were sitting together at TPF. I went up and asked Dennis "So who's game are we gonna see first?" He gave me a smirk and pointed towards Barry. It seemed to me like that meant Barry's game was going to be the first release. But It could also mean that Barry's would be before Dennis's.

#2709 1 year ago

Would be nice if Deeproot dropped an clue tomorrow to make the JJP hype take a u-turn

#2710 1 year ago
Quoted from wolfemaaan:

Would be nice if Deeproot dropped an clue tomorrow to make the JJP hype take a u-turn

Lol, would not matter.

15
#2711 1 year ago
Quoted from wolfemaaan:

Would be nice if Deeproot dropped an clue tomorrow to make the JJP hype take a u-turn

I was at Barry Oursler's house 2 nights ago, and there is no denying this Wonka hype train!

Here's a couple clues though: JPop's RAZA is first release. Then Barry's game, then Dennis Norman's. Not simultaneous release. Still working out software on RAZA and getting parts in for manufacturing. Probably a couple months away.The Utah studio team is apparently large and talented.

This is all pretty common knowledge. I don't pester those guys for inside stuff. The excitement from people working at deeproot: Steven, Barry, Dennis is genuine and I think most will be happy with what they put out.

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#2712 1 year ago

Deeproot will be #1 in pinball soon enough. Trust me.

11
#2713 1 year ago
Quoted from Multiballmaniac1:

Deeproot will be #1 in pinball soon enough. Trust me.

They certainly seem to have some sort of plan...

#2714 1 year ago

It would be nice if they showed something at allentown!

#2715 1 year ago
Quoted from Zavadoza:

I was at Barry Oursler's house 2 nights ago, and there is no denying this Wonka hype train!
Here's a couple clues though: JPop's RAZA is first release. Then Barry's game, then Dennis Norman's. Not simultaneous release. Still working out software on RAZA and getting parts in for manufacturing. Probably a couple months away.The Utah studio team is apparently large and talented.
This is all pretty common knowledge. I don't pester those guys for inside stuff. The excitement from people working at deeproot: Steven, Barry, Dennis is genuine and I think most will be happy with what they put out.
[quoted image]

Didn't they want to reveal 5 games at once?

Would be cool if they really could manage that, to start with a small lineup of games. Because even if their first game turns out great, no matter what it is, it' can't please everyone themwise/ artwise/ whatever... (Wich is exactly my problem with JJP.)

#2716 1 year ago
Quoted from Zavadoza:

I was at Barry Oursler's house 2 nights ago, and there is no denying this Wonka hype train!

is that photo from Mr. Oursler‘s house?

#2717 1 year ago
Quoted from Zavadoza:

Here's a couple clues though: JPop's RAZA is first release. Then Barry's game, then Dennis Norman's

JPOP, that explains the delay. I'm assuming deeproot had no choice but to push this through first to satisfy the existing customers. I sure hope they started with a blank sheet of paper, and had Barry and Dennis review his layout on a weekly basis.

#2718 1 year ago

With JJP coming up with Wonka, revealing a Deeproot pinball feels like pushing an indie ps4 game the day Take 2 releases a new GTA. Not sure it's a good idea !

-12
#2719 1 year ago
Quoted from adol75:

With JJP coming up with Wonka, revealing a Deeproot pinball feels like pushing an indie ps4 game the day Take 2 releases a new GTA. Not sure it's a good idea !

Wonka just fizzled, so it’s really up to Deeproot now.

#2720 1 year ago
Quoted from wolfemaaan:

Wonka just fizzled, so it’s really up to Deeproot now.

Yes. Deeproot and American Pinball (I like their efforts minus the art very much) are our only hope to get back some Williams-esque Pinball Magic at an yet not too astronomical pricetag.

-7
#2721 1 year ago
Quoted from wolfemaaan:

Wonka just fizzled, so it’s really up to Deeproot now.

No doubt... after that release Deeproot just took a big sigh of relief!

19
#2722 1 year ago
Quoted from teekee:

No doubt... after that release Deeproot just took a big sigh of relief!

Deeproot will have to live up to their own hype and then deal with the reality of it just being another pinball machine.

#2723 1 year ago

Deeproot clue of the day: they have 12 whitewoods right now. T w e l v e. All supposed to be done in the next year.

27
#2724 1 year ago

I appreciate your enthusiasm, but maybe not share stuff that’s inaccurate. That number is too low.

—Robert dT

#2725 1 year ago

Can't wait to see them testing on location at What's Brewing!

#2726 1 year ago
Quoted from deeproot:

I appreciate your enthusiasm, but maybe not share stuff that’s inaccurate. That number is too low.
—Robert dT

Sorry Robert. At least 12 white woods.

Because 12 isn't ambitious enough. Can't wait to see the more than 12 games come out in the next year.

#2727 1 year ago
Quoted from Zavadoza:

Sorry Robert. At least 12 white woods.
Because 12 isn't ambitious enough. Can't wait to see the more than 12 games come out in the next year.

Because of the changeble playfield system!

#2728 1 year ago

Robert can you confirm the change to individual release dates as opposed to 5 at once? Not sure that was ever officially stated...

#2729 1 year ago

77 days left until deeproot has to deliver games to the people who submitted a claim (per the goodwill terms). I wonder if they'll meet the deadline....

#2730 1 year ago
Quoted from brucipher:

77 days left until deeproot has to deliver games to the people who submitted a claim (per the goodwill terms). I wonder if they'll meet the deadline....

Thanks for the reminder, that date is coming up fast! I couldn't find the full terms anymore, looks like they have been pulled down. What do claimants get if the games aren't delivered by then?

#2731 1 year ago
Quoted from andre060:

Thanks for the reminder, that date is coming up fast! I couldn't find the full terms anymore, looks like they have been pulled down. What do claimants get if the games aren't delivered by then?

Way back machine. A standard internet service

From august 27th 2018

https://web.archive.org/web/20180827092007/https://zidware.deeproottech.com/

#2732 1 year ago
Quoted from andre060:

Thanks for the reminder, that date is coming up fast! I couldn't find the full terms anymore, looks like they have been pulled down. What do claimants get if the games aren't delivered by then?

Keep waiting.

#2733 1 year ago

I don’t think deedroot legally assumed any claims. Goodwill was a gesture to appease folks who lost money. Their claims were unsecured.

#2734 1 year ago

“If deeproot Tech misses the Delivery Date deadline through no fault of Claimant, then deeproot Tech will pay to the order of the Claimant 1x the combined RAZA/AIW deposits claimed on Claimant's proof of claim ("non-delivery payments"), in lieu of the benefits above. deeproot Tech must pay all qualifying non-delivery payments no later than sixty days after the Delivery Date.”

More cash shoveled into the furnace. Yikes.

Quoted from deeproot:

I appreciate your enthusiasm, but maybe not share stuff that’s inaccurate. That number is too low.
—Robert dT

I’m confused, is this meant to be a brag? As a spectator, I’d expect instead on noodling on 12! Or more white woods, I’d expect a better look would be at least one game complete and ready to show. Spreading yourself thin over multiple games and not being ready to deliver seems worse than putting all efforts into one game and being ready to ship.

#2735 1 year ago
Quoted from Richthofen:

“If deeproot Tech misses the Delivery Date deadline through no fault of Claimant, then deeproot Tech will pay to the order of the Claimant 1x the combined RAZA/AIW deposits claimed on Claimant's proof of claim ("non-delivery payments"), in lieu of the benefits above. deeproot Tech must pay all qualifying non-delivery payments no later than sixty days after the Delivery Date.”
More cash shoveled into the furnace. Yikes.

I’m confused, is this meant to be a brag? As a spectator, I’d expect instead on noodling on 12! Or more white woods, I’d expect a better look would be at least one game complete and ready to show. Spreading yourself thin over multiple games and not being ready to deliver seems worse than putting all efforts into one game and being ready to ship.

12+ whitewoods doesn't necessarily mean 12 games. Each game could have several whitewood models to test different shot geometry, have multiples on hand to play test, or to test improvements along the design path.

#2736 1 year ago
Quoted from JodyG:

12+ whitewoods doesn't necessarily mean 12 games. Each game could have several whitewood models to test different shot geometry, have multiples on hand to play test, or to test improvements along the design path.

It's 12 different games that have a whitewood at this time. (And many more according to Robert Mueller). My information is first hand from someone I and the entire pinball community respect a lot.

It's not some revelation. They have 5 game designers working on multiple projects. Everyone knows this.

14
#2737 1 year ago
Quoted from Zavadoza:

It's 12 different games that have a whitewood at this time.

And that’s how you burn through almost $1 million a month, kids.

#2738 1 year ago
Quoted from Zavadoza:

It's 12 different games that have a whitewood at this time. (And many more according to Robert Mueller). My information is first hand from someone I and the entire pinball community respect a lot.
It's not some revelation. They have 5 game designers working on multiple projects. Everyone knows this.

So 12 whitewood, after all why not. But is there at least 1 game that is "complete", art, playfield, code, graphics and sound ?

#2739 1 year ago

Does deeproot believe that the potential customer field is deep enough to absorbed $5+k games without saturating the market and devaluing the product. That’s a lot of customers they need, every year, to sustain this model.

#2740 1 year ago
Quoted from deeproot:

I appreciate your enthusiasm, but maybe not share stuff that’s inaccurate. That number is too low.
—Robert dT

Can you give us a photo of anything. Maybe on Easter Sunday we get a sneak peek of something game related?

#2741 1 year ago
Quoted from Multiballmaniac1:

Deeproot will be #1 in pinball soon enough. Trust me.

In what ways?

#2744 1 year ago

It's basically impossible to live up to the hype, so let's all just hope for some good games; we've had some great ones already in the past couple years.

#2745 1 year ago
Quoted from Maide:

It's basically impossible to live up to the hype, so let's all just hope for some good games; we've had some great ones already in the past couple years.

That is right.

But... if they really can beat Sterns Pro pricepoint with a 'good' game, that's the best I could hope for.

#2746 1 year ago

It's really odd they haven't made some kind of announcement/tease. With BK3 and WONKA released you would think they would try and prevent some of those sales with some kind of announcement before people make financial commitments. Silence does them no good.

#2747 1 year ago
Quoted from Rondogg:

It's really odd they haven't made some kind of announcement/tease. With BK3 and WONKA released you would think they would try and prevent some of those sales with some kind of announcement before people make financial commitments. Silence does them no good.

When exactly are there not new pinball machines getting to the market?

#2748 1 year ago
Quoted from stevevt:

When exactly are there not new pinball machines getting to the market?

I love this comment. More is good when it comes to this hobby. Love the choices coming out and yearn for more!

#2749 1 year ago
Quoted from stevevt:

When exactly are there not new pinball machines getting to the market?

The two (by far) largest Pinball manufacturers released machines within 3 days of each other. I'd say that's a pretty big occurrence.

13
#2750 1 year ago
Quoted from Rondogg:

Silence does them no good.

I totally disagree. I feel like their second mistake, after hiring JPop, was talking too much, too early. Until they are ready to show something, I applaud them for trying to stay as quiet as possible. I don't think any amount of talking is going to convince people to all of a sudden start trusting a company who's first hire was JPop. With that said, I'm ready to be "wowed" by results.

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