Phoenix, AZ
Quoted from SirScott:The "innovation" of lifting of the glass to work on the playfield reminds me of my Fireball. From 1972.
An innovation weighed what 50+ lbs on the Heighway games. Holy crap that was a bad idea.
(Topic ID: 203700)
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Quoted from kbliznick:3 different single level playfields inside arranged in a triangle
I have actually built this mechanism in small scale to explore the possibility and it required some interesting engineering but not too much. I was sucessful modeling it in Solidworks, and had several ways to do it depending on how much weight you wanted to add, or how much money you want to spend on motors. There is a trade off in both directions, but multiple motor designs were lighter due to modern day rare earth magnets that have increased motor torque and retained a smaller size, but then BOM costs start hitting you big time, 3 playfields? How about just two?, or just one and a place to hang two more, so initial costs to operators are minimal, and multiple titles purchased at later date then could fill the machine up and let players choose, three real machines, one cabinet. But VR eventually will take over. Those who think it wont, thats ok, you will all be dead and long gone by then, as will I, but eventually, the experience will feel just as “real” as real pinball. Welcome to the world of the Unreal... don’t fight it Neo, let the Matrix take you...
Unknown
Quoted from kbliznick:Swap-able playfields is a massive waste of energy for any company to be trying, I don't get it. A stored pf is a crate is what 50-60% of the size of a stored full game? If you don't have room for multiple full games or storing full games where are you going to get the room to store crated pfs?
I don think that's true. When stored vertically, I think you can have 4 games in the spot of one full game.
I really like the idea of having a swappable system with multiple games for my 70 sqr metres apartement. But I'm not so sure it's a good idea from a business point of view (how much demand is there really? and what are the development costs?). I'm not sure if I'd buy just a playfield for >65% of the price of a new game, and I don't think the price would be under 60%: it'd save a cabinet and electronics, but all development costs of a game (sound, software, video, design, etc.), amortization, etc. still would have to be earned by selling full games and playfields. IF it would mean less full games being sold and more kits, those costs would have to be spread among the kits as well. I think a model like this would only make sense IF you'd sell mostly extra kits on top of the normal games sales.
Well, we'll see, but first impression is that they're 'over-inventing' indeed, like knockerlover says.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:I beg to differ but I’m an open-minded guy, id love to be convinced. It certainly makes Zero sense for the pinside crowd.
“Hey who wants to come see
My rad pinball collection?”
Vs.
“Who wants to come see my one game and stack of playfields?”
Levi is right. Don't discount the desire to show off a collection that rarely gets played, these things are status symbol luxury items.
And 90% of collectors can't be bothered with changing out the balls in a game or clean the glass, you expect them to switch out a playfield?
Few thougts......First off, why are people making so many small minded assumptions. It is possibly that DP will offer games that exist in the traditional cabinet style and games that are exclusive to the swappable format. In any market there are vast differences between potential buyers. Capturing the most market share usually involves catering to all potential buyers. Imagine they created a different tier structure for their games, releases that were designated cabinet designs and full of all the bells and whistles and then a second tier of games designed for the swappable format that were less complex and lower cost. If you think about games like TNA and IM, they could easily fall into this realm. One thing is obvious to me, many pinheads here are old......both in age and in thought. If DP developed a swappable system, my guess is they would sell a system to efficiently store games.
Quoted from tiesmasc:The idea of a swapable playfield may not be novel and thus not patentable... particularly since it has been implemented before.
That is not what a patent do. There are new patents to roast chickens or to brush teeth pretty much every day.
Köln
I‘m rather surprised at all the negativity to the idea of swappable playfields. I guess nobody else has space problems in their game room.
So much of a pinball game would not have to be bought new - cabinet, power supply, speakers, electronic hardware (assuming no node boards), display, etc. Imagine having say four such cabinets and seven or eight playfields. Put in the playfield with a clever mechanism, plug in the game specific flash drive and off you go.
It‘s exactly what this hobby needs.
Everyone saying or thinking this one drawing represents DR's make-or-break all-in bet is being seriously shortsighted. All that drawing represents is an idea - nothing more. Well, it also represents an R&D investment which might arguably have been better spent elsewhere. Regardless, it doesn't mean that every DR game will be dependent upon or have this apparatus: it could very well be an option. Maybe the LE models come with it. Maybe a "Modular" option comes with it. Maybe they will even sell it separately. Maybe they patented an idea for its own potential future merit, even if nothing comes out in the near term - wouldn't be the first time that's ever happened and certainly won't be the last.
They could sink on the added expense of imposing this feature upon folks who don't need or appreciate it, or swim on offering it to those who do, or decide it actually isn't worth the trouble in either case. Why not wait and see what's actually released before passing judgement?
Quoted from branlon8:I‘m rather surprised at all the negativity to the idea of swappable playfields. I guess nobody else has space problems in their game room.
Sorry but the desire for swappable playfields is almost exclusively a European interest, and just a small part of it at that, and thus not enough market share. If the Japanese played pinball you'd get a few more for it, but in most of the rest of the world the people who tend to have enough money for multiple pinball machines don't live in extremely tiny flats or apartments. I noticed that every poster who likes or supports the idea had a Euro flag as their location. Might get a handful in the US in S.F. or NYC, but I think those players probably get their fix with location play.
Quoted from tiesmasc:The idea of a swapable playfield may not be novel and thus not patentable... particularly since it has been implemented before
Patents don't secure an idea - they secure a METHOD.
plenty of patents get filed all time and no products are made.
Car manufacturers constantly file patents and never go through with the features
with that said, putting in my 2 cents - I have no interest in swappable playfields.
The feature made the heighway game cabinets very strange looking and the design really bothered me
Quoted from BMore-Pinball:plenty of patents get filed all time and no products are made.
Car manufacturers constantly file patents and never go through with the features
with that said, putting in my 2 cents - I have no interest in swappable playfields.
The feature made the heighway game cabinets very strange looking and the design really bothered me
so do many companies, but they usually have 20 million plus in sales, not a brand new pinball company trying to get their first machine out so there is some revenue coming in. they are still burning money.
Quoted from flynnibus:Patents don't secure an idea - they secure a METHOD.
We are saying the same thing... this method could enable swappable playfields... but they don't lay claim to patent the idea of a swappable playfield...
And of course there are different types of patents too... but no need to get into the nitty gritty details...
adol75 I would hope that anyone who does work with patents understands that a new/novel aspect has to be included or you can't get the patent... (so yes there are new patents for frying a chicken b/c they involve a novel aspect... but not if you are just trying to patent something that is already patented or something that is in common use).
This seems very car-like. The linear actuator means the "glass hood" opening will be computer controlled likely with a solenoid lock near the (traditional) lock down bar area.
How does one then open the game without power on? Is there a hole under the cab to disconnect the linkage like unlocking a 4 wheel drive for a tow? Linear actuators have very high gear ratios so moving it by hand would be hard. You'd also need a locked door for that as it would be a pinch point hazard if left open and kids crawled underneath.
This also could lend creedance to a possible "LCD as glass" feature because you'd actually need to sandwich an LCD with more glass to protect it from ball knocks. Making it heavier furthering the need for mechanical assistance. The fact that glass stays attached also points to electrical connections going to again much like the rear hatch of a car.
Seems cool but would be expensive, and this game's weight will be "Hold my beer" to Hobbit and TNG.
Quoted from benheck:This seems very car-like. The linear actuator means the "glass hood" opening will be computer controlled likely with a solenoid lock near the (traditional) lock down bar area.
How does one then open the game without power on? Is there a hole under the cab to disconnect the linkage like unlocking a 4 wheel drive for a tow? Linear actuators have very high gear ratios so moving it by hand would be hard. You'd also need a locked door for that as it would be a pinch point hazard if left open and kids crawled underneath.
This also could lend creedance to a possible "LCD as glass" feature because you'd actually need to sandwich an LCD with more glass to protect it from ball knocks. Making it heavier furthering the need for mechanical assistance. The fact that glass stays attached also points to electrical connections going to again much like the rear hatch of a car.
Seems cool but would be expensive, and this game's weight will be "Hold my beer" to Hobbit and TNG.
Interesting speculation and reminds me of some other projects. Someone has an idea for something really neat and original so you begin down the path of design/prototyping. A little ways in, the law of unintended consequences would raise its ugly head and you'd have to take a detour and re-engineer/re-invent some component to address the issue. This would result in another unintended consequence. Soon you find yourself staring at a Rube Goldberg device tied together with spaghetti code. Not bad if you are a profitable company with the ability to invest in R&D and skunkworks type operations. A bit more problematic as a startup. Of course, all speculation.
OMGH, this is awesome!!!
Finally not having to smudge the glass, havibng enough room to pull it out, hope it doesn't fall over or gets scratched (come on nearly everyone here lost a playfield galss allready), we can solder on the playfield without standing on a stool or disconnecting the playfield...
Yes it is not "essential" but I love it anyways and I'm happy someone is rethinking this stuff.
https://www.thisweekinpinball.com/this-week-in-pinball-april-8th-2019/
TWIP reached out to Robert Mueller of deeproot to inquire about the document. He shared that the cabinets shown in the document are prototype cabinet ideas that were mostly scrapped.
Scrapped, but I wonder how much time and resources were spent on the scrapped idea. In light of them totally missing their TPF debut and no future dates announced at all.
Quoted from frolic:https://www.thisweekinpinball.com/this-week-in-pinball-april-8th-2019/
Scrapped, but I wonder how much time and resources were spent on the scrapped idea. In light of them totally missing their TPF debut and no future dates announced at all.
"Mostly".
I guess the mechanism holding the playfield would be costly, but the liftable glass or the backbox hinges seem feasible.
They said they'd re-evaluate every aspect of the construction of a game and they sure do...
Quoted from frolic:https://www.thisweekinpinball.com/this-week-in-pinball-april-8th-2019/
Scrapped, but I wonder how much time and resources were spent on the scrapped idea. In light of them totally missing their TPF debut and no future dates announced at all.
The key difference from JPop is this guy apparently has the money to burn and is actually paying his team. So long as he doesn’t try to go the preorder route, it’s all good. Of course I hope he’ll actually ship games, but either way, at least so far it’s not on someone else’s dime.
Quoted from fosaisu:at least so far it’s not on someone else’s dime.
Well, it is on someone else's dime. Just not "ours".
My main observation is from a biz standpoint. No one stays in business spending money and not shipping product, no matter who is funding it.
Quoted from branlon8:I‘m rather surprised at all the negativity to the idea of swappable playfields. I guess nobody else has space problems in their game room.
So much of a pinball game would not have to be bought new - cabinet, power supply, speakers, electronic hardware (assuming no node boards), display, etc. Imagine having say four such cabinets and seven or eight playfields. Put in the playfield with a clever mechanism, plug in the game specific flash drive and off you go.
It‘s exactly what this hobby needs.
I disagree. The negatives have already been addressed and shown in reality. Game hardware (boards) become restrictive and cannot be updated with new games. Traditional cabinet artwork will not be possible. You will save some money but not that much. Populated pf's are heavy and cumbersome. You will need somewhere to store them safely and easy way to swap them. Not many people are physically able or will want to do this. When selling a pf, it will be impossible to demonstrate everything works. Even if you drop it in your cab to show it works, what happens when it does not work in another cab? It will add cost and complexity to something most people are not asking for. Most people just want a great game with awesome playfield features for a competitive cost. If this somehow makes pins cheaper or easy to maintained then that would be cool. On the surface it just looks like it adds complexity, costs, and more issues to deal with.
Quoted from jawjaw:I disagree. The negatives have already been addressed and shown in reality. Game hardware (boards) become restrictive and cannot be updated with new games. Traditional cabinet artwork will not be possible. You will save some money but not that much. Populated pf's are heavy and cumbersome. You will need somewhere to store them safely and easy way to swap them. Not many people are physically able or will want to do this. When selling a pf, it will be impossible to demonstrate everything works. Even if you drop it in your cab to show it works, what happens when it does not work in another cab? It will add cost and complexity to something most people are not asking for. Most people just want a great game with awesome playfield features for a competitive cost. If this somehow makes pins cheaper or easy to maintained then that would be cool. On the surface it just looks like it adds complexity, costs, and more issues to deal with.
I love how people read something like this and then say:
"I can't believe you wouldn't be into a swappable playfield! It makes so much sense! Give me one reason it's a bad idea!!!"
Err...ok...
Quoted from CrazyLevi:I love how people read something like this and then say:
"I can't believe you wouldn't be into a swappable playfield! It makes so much sense! Give me one reason it's a bad idea!!!"
Err...ok...
Actually I‘m kind of still waiting for somebody to give a good reason. All I‘m reading is that people wouldn‘t want it.
Quoted from branlon8:Actually I‘m kind of still waiting for somebody to give a good reason. All I‘m reading is that people wouldn‘t want it.
Yeah you are right. Not a single good reason has been posted stating why it's a bad idea and has consistently failed whenever tried for the past 45 years.
These pinball companies are morons! Been leaving money on the table since Nixon was president!
Quoted from DS_Nadine:Why are you guys discussing swappable playfields when there are none?
I'm sorry did I miss out on all the other fabulous Deep Root news we should be talking about instead?
Quoted from CrazyLevi:Yeah you are right. Not a single good reason has been posted stating why it's a bad idea and has consistently failed whenever tried for the past 45 years.
These pinball companies are morons! Been leaving money on the table since Nixon was president!
If you say so !
Quoted from jawjaw:Game hardware (boards) become restrictive and cannot be updated with new games.
Only if the system is poorly designed.
Quoted from jawjaw:Traditional cabinet artwork will not be possible.
Only if "traditional" means theme-specific that's permanently adhered to the cabinet.
Quoted from jawjaw:You will save some money but not that much.
Only if "not that much" means 75% savings isn't enough.
Quoted from jawjaw:Populated pf's are heavy and cumbersome.
Only if "pf's" means full-size playfields that are in pinball machines not properly designed for swappability.
The Heighway system definitely shouldn't be viewed as the way to design a pinball machine with swappable playfields. If it was, I'd agree with your conclusions. I actually use the same arguments when describing why that system didn't make sense. If DR is pursuing a system with full-size swappable playfields, I'll agree with your conclusions there too.
- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com
Quoted from CrazyLevi:I'm sorry did I miss out on all the other fabulous Deep Root news we should be talking about instead?
You did miss out that (all of) you are disussing some feature wich doesn't exist/ is not mentioned in this patent.
That said, feel free to continue discussing off-topic stuff. *insert mom-joke*
Quoted from DS_Nadine:You did miss out that (all of) you are disussing some feature wich doesn't exist/ is not mentioned in this patent.
That said, feel free to continue discussing off-topic stuff. *insert mom-joke*
Speculation in a Pinside thread?
welli-never (resized).jpgQuoted from CrazyLevi:Speculation in a Pinside thread?[quoted image]
Sorry, I forgot why no major manufacturer posts here anymore... 
Quoted from DS_Nadine:Sorry, I forgot why no major manufacturer posts here anymore...
That's ok! Deep Root still does.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:That's ok! Deep Root still does.
"Major manufacturer" 
Let's discuss haircuts!
I have one.
(At least partially.)
Quoted from DS_Nadine:"Major manufacturer"
Let's discuss haircuts!
I have one.
(At least partially.)
Dude that's a low fucking blow.
Not all of us have hair.
Quoted from kbliznick:An innovation weighed what 50+ lbs on the Heighway games. Holy crap that was a bad idea.
I completely disagree. It is awesome to be able to lift the glass off.
Quoted from gstellenberg:Only if "not that much" means 75% savings isn't enough.
- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com
Are you saying the cabinet is 75% of the machine cost? Is it really that much?
Quoted from CrazyLevi:I love how people read something like this and then say:
"I can't believe you wouldn't be into a swappable playfield! It makes so much sense! Give me one reason it's a bad idea!!!"
Err...ok...
What if people are too lazy to swap out a PF? You know if it takes more that 2 or 3 connections people start freaking out.
OR, more importantly, what if one drops and destroys the PF while drinking? 
Quoted from Lamprey:Are you saying the cabinet is 75% of the machine cost? Is it really that much?
Certainly not in a traditional machine. Our game kits so far are 25% or less of our full machine price, but we've designed our system to separate many more common elements from the game kits. The point is, if you evaluate traditional games for modularity / swappable games, you'll come to certain conclusions, but there are better ways to do things.
- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com
Quoted from gstellenberg:Certainly not in a traditional machine. Our game kits so far are 25% or less of our full machine price, but we've designed our system to separate many more common elements from the game kits. The point is, if you evaluate traditional games for modularity / swappable games, you'll come to certain conclusions, but there better ways to do things.
- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic
Gotcha. That makes sense for your system.
Quoted from iceman44:What if people are too lazy to swap out a PF? You know if it takes more that 2 or 3 connections people start freaking out.
Currently, Stern's SPIKE system is only 3 connectors.
I'm sure that could get paired down to 2 by an improved system.
Quoted from gstellenberg:Only if "traditional" means theme-specific that's permanently adhered to the cabinet.
Which is what pinball collectors want. Look at how many people dished out extra money for 'rad-cals' or whatever is the new hotness these days.
Quoted from gstellenberg:Our game kits so far are 25% or less of our full machine price
That's interesting to me, mostly because the expensive part of pinball machines these days are not the parts, it's the labor. Paying workers by the hour to hand-solder components, manually hammer in t-nuts, and build complicated wiring looms (now with more wire so you can cantilever out the playfield 5 feet!) is the big cost. Selling separate playfields doesn't reduce the labor to write the game code, or create the artwork, or any of the other substantial overhead.
SWAPPABLE PLAYFIELDS! THIS TIME IT'S DIFFERENT
quote-the-four-most-expensive-words-in-the-english-language-are-this-time-it-s-different-john-templeton-52-74-28[1] (resized).jpDeeproot is not doing a swappable playfield.
Robert said it in an interview and Jeff from twip, who toured Deeproot and saw their cabs in September also confirmed they are not doing this. It's also further refuted on twip today.
Quoted from Richthofen:That's interesting to me, mostly because the expensive part of pinball machines these days are not the parts.
I'm curious to know how you drew that conclusion. It's quite wrong, at least for the majority of manufacturers, unless you're talking about inflated limited edition prices. There's a reason no new manufacturer has come in at a low price point. Passionate people might donate their time to get a company off the ground, but vendors don't donate production parts.
Quoted from Richthofen:Selling separate playfields doesn't reduce the labor to write the game code, or create the artwork, or any of the other substantial overhead.
Agreed, and those costs gets paid from profit over COGs. For purely argument's sake, if profit on a machine is $1k, then a company could make the same amount of money to pay for game development by selling playfields with $1k profit, assuming they sell the same number of both.
- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com
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