(Topic ID: 203700)

deeproot Pinball thread


By pin2d

1 year ago



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15
#2601 7 months ago
Quoted from Bublehead:

We all buy one DR cabinet, then each title comes in its own shipping “Roady” case. These will be packaged so you can take them as luggage, and they will expect we take or “favorite” DR games with us to our friends house, who, having a DR cabinet, allows us to plug it in and play.
Sounds like a viable solution to the problem of “we got to go over to Dan’s house to play the latest DR title he just bought” and could you imagine a parlor of empty cabinets where we all bring are favorite titles and play? Like maybe a pin-alley?
Anyone getting where this is going?

It’s going nowhere because this is a solution nobody wants for a dilemma nobody has ever had.

#2602 7 months ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

I can’t see how you’d look at that cabinet patent and think “cheap.”

That was exactly my point!!!
You misunderstood my comment.

#2603 7 months ago
Quoted from Bublehead:

then each title comes in its own shipping “Roady” case.

And these will cost between $1K - $1.5K a piece:

A too small example
http://www.allcases.com/products/tvmonitor-road-case-72-screen/

they go up to $1500 for a 90" monitor

#2604 7 months ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

It’s going nowhere because nobody has ever actually had this dilemma.

This is a paradigm shift in the way we gather and play pinball with each other and is not a “dilemma” to overcome but a new way of thinking about pinball. Is it deferent?, yes, is it needed, we don’t know, we may think “nope” but I don’t think this has anything to do with maintenance on a pinball machine as much as it is a way of swapping playfields in and out without additional hardware, but I could be wrong.

#2605 7 months ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

This has been an unwanted and poorly
Received feature whenever it’s been tried. Making a game “swap friendly” has sold exactly
Zero extra pinball games in history.

Swappable is indeed the dumbest idea ever....Again.

#2606 7 months ago

This would also be a customer service nightmare - creating dozens of new critical play field damage claims a month with the manufacturer not really able to determine what is a legitimate claim and the "oopsie, accidentally let it fall one the floor" or "banged off a solenoid coil trying to get it in the $1.5K roady case"....

And from a personal taste standpoint - theme and art are super important to me, so you either have a generic cabinet, or a whole slew of swappable art to deal with as well.....or in this case, as some have speculated, a generic cabinet with a back box image rear projected on a blank screen. Not for me. thats for sure.

#2607 7 months ago

They're going to use powered EL decals that will change the artwork to match the P.F so you can switch cabinet art.

#2608 7 months ago

Is there any evidence that swappable PFs are the intention of the patent?

Nothing whatsoever on this mentioned in the patent docs.

I’m not a patent expert but I did think patent justifications had to include info on intended use.

Companies file for patents all of the time, it may just be one of their engineers came up with it on a rainy day and they decided to grow their intellectual property. Give the lawyers something to do.

Or it may be a solution to a problem of service access for very complicated shit under the PF (eg multilevel, odd mechs, etc), or maybe a way to speed up prototyping during development.

May not be a good solution to any of these problems, but it doesn’t have to be to granted a patent.

Unless I’m missing something and all the swappable PF Heighway panic is not simply speculation or some shit you heard on a podcast.

#2609 7 months ago

The idea of a swapable playfield may not be novel and thus not patentable... particularly since it has been implemented before.

Regarding desirability for swapable playfields there would be nothing preventing DR from selling a machine in a dedicated cabinet (without all this hardware) and also selling the same machine in a cabinet that has all this hardware... so for those that want swapable they can pay more for 1 game but then less for the swap-ins... versus perhaps the person who buys each game as a complete unit... and then everyone wins?

#2610 7 months ago

if there are game options, and they are fun, it is marketable for the home setting.

If there was a Williams widebody cab with swappable playfields of IJ, STTNG, and TZ for $10k all in, it would sell. Some people are limited on space (we all are at some point). Others it’s money.

I think it comes down to if the games are fun, you have a number of options, and it isn’t complicated to swap. Would be great if you had a rack that fit under the cabinet to store 2 additional playfields (probably have to go sideways).

#2611 7 months ago
Quoted from Zavadoza:

If there was a Williams widebody cab with swappable playfields of IJ, STTNG, and TZ for $10k all in, it would sell.

Right, and if my aunt has wheels she’d be a wagon.

You realize that what you propose we’d all buy is completely impossible from a cost standpoint, right?

Would this thing sell at the $30,000 or so it would actually have to cost to be feasible? Unlikely.

#2612 7 months ago
Quoted from tiesmasc:

so for those that want swapable they can pay more for 1 game but then less for the swap-ins... versus perhaps the person who buys each game as a complete unit... and then everyone wins?

Except all the time and money that has to be spent designing, manufacturing and storing for multiple versions of the same game, same cabinet etc. While certainly not the biggest problem that led to the implosion of Heighway.....it was certainly a crippling factor in their never ending ALIEN development cycle. Trying to make things work with the Full Throttle hardware.....then trying to come up with a way to take care of Full Throttle owners when they were finally forced to upgrade computer specs. Trying to determine pricing that didn't fully flip out customers who had bought into the swappable story.... IE play fields that cost 3/4 of a full dedicated cabinet.

Of course, a swappable pin company can just sell generic swappable cabinet with each new game to save costs (as opposed to having dedicated cabs for non swappable options), but that starts to get really unappealing to people who don't want swappable cabinets but want a full dedicated package for the full price.

I say this as someone who has been excited about swap-ability in the past! But Heighway shone a light on the myriad of problems that I never thought about previously.

#2613 7 months ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Right, and if my aunt has wheels she’d be a wagon.
You realize that what you propose we’d all buy is completely impossible from a cost standpoint, right?
Would this thing sell at the $30,000 or so it would actually have to cost to be feasible? Unlikely.

You need to stop buying those $10 cups of NY coffee. It would be closer to 10 than 30 (so less than $20k).

Two words man. Octo assembly. Lol. I guess we will see.

I’m glad you changed your stance on a swappable game not being a good idea and that you agree that it’s marketability will come down to price.

#2614 7 months ago

It all folds up and fits in your fanny pack for easy transport.

#2615 7 months ago

hey. it doubles as a TV tray !

#2616 7 months ago
Quoted from Zavadoza:

You need to stop buying those $10 cups of NY coffee. It would be closer to 10 than 30 (so less than $20k).
Two words man. Octo assembly. Lol. I guess we will see.
I’m glad you changed your stance on a swappable game not being a good idea and that you agree that it’s marketability will come down to price.

Yes. I’m convinced. Your insane idea that I can one day buy 4-1 classic Williams widebody kit for $10,000 is indeed a good one.

Consider my stance changed.

Speaking of beverages, what in God’s name are you and ICe drinking down there in Texas. Is there something in the water?

#2617 7 months ago

The swappable playfield idea never worked and was never tested at Heighway. We only ever tested a playfield swap of the same game in a quick video demo. It was one of Andrew's bat shit crazy ideas that was binned when the new owners took over.

#2618 7 months ago
Quoted from zeddex:

Except all the time and money that has to be spent designing, manufacturing and storing for multiple versions of the same game, same cabinet etc. While certainly not the biggest problem that led to the implosion of Heighway.....it was certainly a crippling factor in their never ending ALIEN development cycle. Trying to make things work with the Full Throttle hardware.....then trying to come up with a way to take care of Full Throttle owners when they were finally forced to upgrade computer specs. Trying to determine pricing that didn't fully flip out customers who had bought into the swappable story.... IE play fields that cost 3/4 of a full dedicated cabinet.

This is really a hugely important point I think. I have no idea why we've decided swappable playfields are coming, but I definitely don't recommend them for a new manufacturer for the above reason. You get locked into your initial design decisions with no room to update and fix things as problems come to light because everything you do has to be backwards compatible with what you started with.

Heighway made dumb decisions and then got trapped between pissing off their existing customer base (such as it was) while making new customers worry about how future proof their purchases would be, and fixing things so they were better, but would no longer work with old systems.

11
#2619 7 months ago

Another problem with every playfield swap strategy is that it only saves money on the cheapest part of the game - the cabinet.

#2620 7 months ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Yes. I’m convinced. Your insane idea that I can one day buy 4-1 classic Williams widebody kit for $10,000 is indeed one that would sell.

Its 4 games now? I love your snarky foolishness. It’s always been amusing. $30k is ludicrous for 3 modular games. We were only talking about the concept, not the exact pricing. Let the mfr worry about that.

#2621 7 months ago
Quoted from Zavadoza:

Its 4 games now? I love your snarky foolishness. It’s always been amusing. $30k is ludicrous for 3 modular games. We were only talking about the concept, not the exact pricing. Let the mfr worry about that.

The entire swap concept has been ludicrous since it was first tried in the 1990s. Nobody wants this.

Again you can dream up a cheap classic Williams 3 in 1 like I can dream up a 3 way with a reanimated Marilyn Monroe and a Young Sofia Lauren. Doesn’t mean it will ever happen or is even in the realm of possibility.

#2622 7 months ago

Ohhhh DeepRoot. If they are banking their entire platform on swappable playfields - yikes. I'd be worried. But, it now makes sense why they need multiple titles at launch. I guess I should wish them good luck - maybe they'll be awesome - but I can't see this system having a low entry price point.

15
#2623 7 months ago

Luckily for most of us, Atari and Magnavox didn't agree with the common opinion about swappable games expressed above. The world would be a very different place if they did. For pinball it makes less sense, since playfields are much larger than digital game cartridges/disks, but if a well-architected pinball platform was designed with that in mind from the start with more common/cabinet elements and smaller swappable elements, then it could/does make a lot of sense for a growing number of people. The industry is much bigger than just pinball enthusiasts who want a gameroom or house full of machines, and even many enthusiasts want more value for their money and floorspace.

- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

#2624 7 months ago

This probably makes the assembly much quicker instead of assembly outside the cabinet the transferring it back. My guess is this was/is a major pain point and in efficiency in which this improves time to deliver.

#2625 7 months ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Yes. I’m convinced. Your insane idea that I can one day buy 4-1 classic Williams widebody kit for $10,000 is indeed a good one.
Consider my stance changed.
Speaking of beverages, what in God’s name are you and ICe drinking down there in Texas. Is there something in the water?

Must be the tequila talking with my friend Adam

The problem with DR it would seem is that they don’t have years of runway like you had/have Gerry for people to adopt to whatever it is they are doing

They need to come out of the gate selling a shitload of pins to cover that overhead

That’s the biggest risk. The smell of cash burn is not a good one

#2626 7 months ago

I'm curious to see what they've got up their sleeve. Maybe they're thinking it would be easier for operators to swap games out on location if all they need to do is move around playfields in a protective box and whatever art goes with it, instead of an entire game? Also, perhaps it might entice collectors who have full game rooms, and who have to sell a pin to make room for a new one, or have games in difficult to access upstairs or basement environments. It might not take up so much room to keep 2-3 playfields in a closet to rotate through every now and then as the mood strikes. Of course, for this to work, the electronics would have to be very solid, plug and play design, and some sort of specially designed light weight box would be needed to easily secure the playfield when outside of the game.

#2627 7 months ago

on an old game where you are constantly having to work on it, this would be cool. On a brand new game, I sure has hell hope I am not needing to take the glass off (well, I guess in this care lift it) and pull the playfield all the way out like this to work on it.

So, not sure if this a solution in need of a problem, or they anticipate lots of issues with their machines and therefore this will be needed.

And enough with this idea of swapping full size playfields (which I don't think this is about), that is the last thing I ever want to be doing. They are heavy and awkward to handle and it is an accident waiting to happen.

#2628 7 months ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

The entire swap concept has been ludicrous since it was first tried in the 1990s. Nobody wants this.
Again you can dream up a cheap classic Williams 3 in 1 like I can dream up a 3 way with a reanimated Marilyn Monroe and a Young Sofia Lauren. Doesn’t mean it will ever happen or is even in the realm of possibility.

90's ? They have been trying kits since the 70's.
I typed 'kit' into my flyer search engine and a whole list of them came up. The kit idea has been tried and failed so many times it's hard to keep tracked. American manufacturers tried it, German, Italians......

https://www.nypinball.com/brochures2.php#m=1&q1=kit&q2=&q3=

#2629 7 months ago

you are arguing over a patent?! LOL you know half of them are to fool the competition?

#2630 7 months ago
Quoted from taz:

I'm curious to see what they've got up their sleeve.

This. Too bad the "Five days of Deeproot" have been postponed. I like to see new ideas whether outlandish or ingenious. Innovation, baby. Bring it on (especially in this business)

#2631 7 months ago

I think you are all crazy, swappable playfields makes so much sense on so many levels. I hope that is what the patient is all about. We are all running out of space and I am tired of having to sell my favorite games for space reasons.

#2632 7 months ago

Swappable pfs make zero sense for all reasons mentioned. I love the idea just like I love the idea of $3000 nib pins. Reality has proven it's a failed plan.

Perhaps this is just a modular plan. Imagine it being easy to take a pin apart easily. That would make it easy to move and service in some ways. Still, over complicating things that don't need to be doesn't seem smart.

15
#2633 7 months ago
Quoted from iceman44:

The problem with DR it would seem is that they don’t have years of runway like you had/have Gerry for people to adopt to whatever it is they are doing.
That’s the biggest risk. The smell of cash burn is not a good one

Having a lot of money to support the risks associated with innovation will certainly let them hit the ground running faster than we did. Lack of money made us implement our ideas with passion and personal investment. If they have half the passion that we did (and still do), then I'm sure they'll deliver some really cool things. Hopefully this seemingly well-funded company can break down more walls people seem to have around innovation in this industry. If they do, we all win. I personally wish them luck.

- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

-2
#2634 7 months ago
Quoted from jawjaw:

Swappable pfs make zero sense for all reasons mentioned. I love the idea just like I love the idea of $3000 nib pins. Reality has proven it's a failed plan.
Perhaps this is just a modular plan. Imagine it being easy to take a pin apart easily. That would make it easy to move and service in some ways. Still, over complicating things that don't need to be doesn't seem smart.

What reality are you talking about anyway?? Andrew Heighway?? Come on! Pinball 2000? The idea worked, Williams was leaving pinball regardless. There has not been one viable argument against it, only an under funded moron who didn’t have the vision to pull it off. You sound like my father talking about electric cars in the 90’s.

#2635 7 months ago
Quoted from thedarkknight77:

I think you are all crazy, swappable playfields makes so much sense on so many levels. I hope that is what the patient is all about. We are all running out of space and I am tired of having to sell my favorite games for space reasons.

I beg to differ but I’m an open-minded guy, id love to be convinced. It certainly makes Zero sense for the pinside crowd.

“Hey who wants to come see
My rad pinball collection?”

Vs.

“Who wants to come see my one game and stack of playfields?”

#2636 7 months ago
Quoted from gstellenberg:

Having a lot of money to support the risks associated with innovation will certainly let them hit the ground running faster than we did. Lack of money made us implement our ideas with passion and personal investment. If they have half the passion that we did (and still do), then I'm sure they'll deliver some really cool things. Hopefully this seemingly well-funded company can break down more walls people seem to have around innovation in this industry. If they do, we all win. I personally wish them luck.
- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

Well as another fellow Texan I wish you best of luck as well.

The longer you can survive to see the dreams come true is important

Finances and operating budgets matter

Thus so does the runway to success

#2637 7 months ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

I beg to differ but I’m an open-minded guy, id love to be convinced. It certainly makes Zero sense for the pinside crowd.
“Hey who wants to come see
My rad pinball collection?”
Vs.
“Who wants to come see my one game and stack of playfields?”

Oh so now we are saying you can only own one or the other??? Oh I forget,if I buy a interchangeable pinball machine, I will have to sell my collection? Are you people for real??

#2638 7 months ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

I beg to differ but I’m an open-minded guy, id love to be convinced. It certainly makes Zero sense for the pinside crowd.
“Hey who wants to come see
My rad pinball collection?”
Vs.
“Who wants to come see my one game and stack of playfields?”

Well you and Kaneda of all people should love this concept with the limited expensive space you have in New York City

#2639 7 months ago
Quoted from thedarkknight77:

Oh so now we are saying you can only own one or the other??? Oh I forget,if I buy a interchangeable pinball machine, I will have to sell my collection? Are you people for real??

You can use as many question marks as you like but that does nothing to change the fact that 45 years of attempts At the swap playfield thing has never borne success.

Right???

#2640 7 months ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Well you and Kaneda of all people should love this concept with the limited expensive space you have in New York City

I don’t know about him but I got 15 games set up to play.

Not an issue for me.

Besides have you seen how we live?! Where am I gonna store a bunch of playfields in crates?

#2641 7 months ago
Quoted from fishbone:

This. Too bad the "Five days of Deeproot" have been postponed. I like to see new ideas whether outlandish or ingenious. Innovation, baby. Bring it on (especially in this business)

How about 5 years not five days. Skepticism grows with each month that goes by.

#2642 7 months ago

They still haven't taken pre order money. I hope they succeed!

#2643 7 months ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

I don’t know about him but I got 15 games set up to play.
Not an issue for me.
Besides have you seen how we live?! Where am I gonna store a bunch of playfields in crates?

Chris would like to store a few games with you Levi!

If you have 15 games set up you can store about a 100 PF's in crates, no brainer.

#2644 7 months ago

Or maybe we can just see what they can do...

#2645 7 months ago
Quoted from benheck:

Keep in mind a transparent LCD glass can only darken things it can't add light. Unless it's OLED but that would be unaffordable at this time.
Also you'd have to use a camera to track the players head and eyes to render the correct perspective.

I don’t understand why this is a problem. Arcade redemption games use them just fine, and they are backlit, which would be trivial in a pinball cabinet

#2646 7 months ago
Quoted from Aurich:

This is really a hugely important point I think. I have no idea why we've decided swappable playfields are coming, but I definitely don't recommend them for a new manufacturer for the above reason. You get locked into your initial design decisions with no room to update and fix things as problems come to light because everything you do has to be backwards compatible with what you started with.

Yes, but it's a sound design principle you try to maintain regardless. Stern doesn't design a new platform for every game.. they design one and use it for many games. You don't want to re-invent the wheel every game and spend that time and R&D.

You don't have to get it right on the first game, you can always retrofit those first attempts. The problem was heighway had no sales to have resources to take care of those customers in a meaningful way... let alone the capacity to productize such upgrades properly.

Every manufacturer re-uses their core game design.. even if they sell you a new cabinet each time.

The problem is more what was described earlier... saving cabinets doesn't really save costs. It's a model that doesn't really move the price point radically enough to offset the trade-offs.

#2647 7 months ago

In a steve Richie seminar, he talked about how Atari spent too much time trying to reinvent things that didn’t need to be reinvented (flipper mechs, etc.) when they should have been trying to focus on making better games.. (paraphrased). That ultimately led to their demise.

Heighway had some similar patterns, passive switches, interchangeable playfields, etc. and we know what happened there.

It’s a fine line between pushing the line of innovation, and reinventing just for the sake of reinventing. And this patent looks to be a solution without a problem.

#2648 7 months ago

The "innovation" of lifting of the glass to work on the playfield reminds me of my Fireball. From 1972.

#2649 7 months ago
Quoted from knockerlover:

In a steve Richie seminar, he talked about how Atari spent too much time trying to reinvent things that didn’t need to be reinvented (flipper mechs, etc.) when they should have been trying to focus on making better games.. (paraphrased). That ultimately led to their demise.
Heighway had some similar patterns, passive switches, interchangeable playfields, etc. and we know what happened there.
It’s a fine line between pushing the line of innovation, and reinventing just for the sake of reinventing. And this patent looks to be a solution without a problem.

People want the big wins before they have revenue... that's a low percentage strategy

#2650 7 months ago

Swap-able playfields is a massive waste of energy for any company to be trying, I don't get it. A stored pf is a crate is what 50-60% of the size of a stored full game? If you don't have room for multiple full games or storing full games where are you going to get the room to store crated pfs?

Only concept I ever thought would be a cool project (but not a viable business plan) was slightly widened early Bally cabinet with 3 different single level playfields inside arranged in a triangle on a rotating spit. You can switch between games with the press of a button and with an Alltek running the games would make it easy to switch (route the game changing dip switches to something on the assembly to automatically switch the game code out). Main problem I see with this if the pf's sit flush with the top of the cabinet then as the mech turns the pf edges would be for a moment higher than the cabinet meaning no main pf glass on top. If you have it safely sealed up inside the cabinet then the pf would need to sit pretty deep in it to allow the rotation (maybe a second mech to temp lower the pf then raise it back up after rotating.

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