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(Topic ID: 203700)

deeproot Pinball thread

By pin2d

6 years ago


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  • Latest reply 5 days ago by benheck
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#2501 5 years ago
 
LRP

lpeters82

Pinside+ Frequent

12y 132K 5,285 8

Quoted from Bublehead:

Unless you have endless cash...
My favorite pinball daydream has always been some well connected money man with deep pockets gets hooked on pinball, and the only way to satisfy his ravenous pinball appetite is to buy Stern, or JJP, or CGC and dump obscene ammounts of money into them and start pumping out titles and machines like back to back.
Well, right now, DR is the closest thing going to that pipe dream. I am wondering, though, does DR’s story end in success, failure, or with people behind bars?

That's great for the short term, but could also be the end for competition. I'll take slow and steady with a healthy business model versus a flash in the pan.

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#2502 5 years ago
 
LTG

LTG

Pinside member

US Hopkins, MN

12y 191K 56,940 24 7

Quoted from Richthofen:

but there's always collateral damage.

Like the people working for Deeproot whose efforts/labor will be lost if games aren't built. And their efforts during that time that could have been in games built during this period by other manufacturers.

This is the reason I really hope Deeproot is successful so talent isn't lost.

LTG : )

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#2503 5 years ago
 
NAD

Bublehead

Pinside member

US San Tan Valley, AZ

8y 92,300 4,441 10

Quoted from lpeters82:

That's great for the short term, but could also be the end for competition. I'll take slow and steady with a healthy business model versus a flash in the pan.

Well my fantasy doesn't usually end with pinball going up in flames, but I can see where you are going with your train of thought... which you are right, it probably is not a good thing for pinball in the long run.

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#2504 5 years ago
 
RON

Rondogg

Pinside member

11y 109K 3,341

Quoted from Bublehead:

Unless you have endless cash...
My favorite pinball daydream has always been some well connected money man with deep pockets gets hooked on pinball, and the only way to satisfy his ravenous pinball appetite is to buy Stern, or JJP, or CGC and dump obscene ammounts of money into them and start pumping out titles and machines like back to back.
Well, right now, DR is the closest thing going to that pipe dream. I am wondering, though, does DR’s story end in success, failure, or with people behind bars?

There would be no JJP as we know it without an Angel investor (Leonard Abess) like you described.

https://www.app.com/story/money/business/main-street/2015/08/07/jersey-jack-pinball-investment/31302953/

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#2505 5 years ago
 
NAD

Bublehead

Pinside member

US San Tan Valley, AZ

8y 92,300 4,441 10

@rondogg, I agree, this is similar, but a one time shot in the arm, not an ongoing endless cash stream. The missing part of the JJP dream, however, is the endless, back to back machine titles. I think JJP needed what they got, but not sure they got everything they really needed to start cranking out machines like Stern. And with the market getting crowded, can anyone actually catch up to Stern? CGC, JJP, or DR?

Deep Root has talked some big talk, how much bite is in that bark? Millions?, tens of millions? Time will tell how deep the pockets are and who will end up as the top three manufacturers this time. If I were a betting man my money is on the best performers to date, and so far Deep Root is coming in a distant last place right now, but that could change.

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#2506 5 years ago
 
TMB

Roostking

Pinside+ Addict

10y 106K 8,563 2

Quoted from Richthofen:

Except Steve Bowden gave up his teaching career to move to texas and go work for DR. This is the part that worries me. People like to think "What's the harm in Andrew Heighway/JPOP/etc blowing money", but there's always collateral damage. AppleJuice not getting paid for coding work. The game designer for Heighway who was unpaid and basically made broke. There's always collateral damage when you look behind the big personalities. When DR fails, it will mess over a lot of people, like the investors in Robert's funds, which will then make it harder for pinball manufacturers in the future to raise capital.
I almost immediately thought this was a fraud because THEY ARE SPONSORING EVENTS. A company with zero cash flow and nothing but expenses is sponsoring Pinburgh and otherwise spending money on shit they shouldn't. Reminded me of Dutch Pinball throwing a boozy party with hired models. Pinball is a low margin item, hand manufactured in the USA where labor is notoriously expensive. IMHO If you want to be successful as a pinball manufacturer you need to count every penny to be profitable, especially in the early stages where you have to outlay large expenses (equipment, leases, employees, 1 year lead time on product development) without selling anything just yet. Sponsoring events to 'build brand awareness' is the kind of marketing bullshit people think you need, but let's face it: you can post on pinside you're making a game and pinside will shower you with attention until the games come out.
Oh, and then don't even get me started on taking on JPOP's liabilities and former customers. How that would ever be a profitable move is beyond me.

I agree with everythjng you said, except the part about collateral damage. Anytime you change jobs, you better do your research, especially if its a startup that has not actually produced anything.

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#2507 5 years ago
 
TMB

Roostking

Pinside+ Addict

10y 106K 8,563 2

Quoted from Rdoyle1978:

Here’s to hoping they follow through! It’s hard without anything to look at whatsoever. Even JPop had art by this time ..

Jpop had art because he ripped off the real artist. Zombie Yeti.

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#2508 5 years ago
 
EDG

Richthofen

Pinside member

11y 75,800 2,695

Quoted from Roostking:

I agree with everythjng you said, except the part about collateral damage. Anytime you change jobs, you better do your research, especially if its a startup that has not actually produced anything.

Yes, to a degree. Look if you already hired pinball greats and showed me work, it would be hard to say no to Nordman, etc especially since they are the people who made the games we love. I make good money at my job and have it really great, but if stern wanted to hire me? To work for a firm I love whose products I love? Would have a hard time saying no. Once in a lifetime thing.

But if you are blowing smoke out of your ass and essentially fraudulently conveying that you can manufacture pinballs, I mean that’s on the fraudster too. All the people defrauded by JPOP and Heighway, the victims are just that. There’s a difference between evaluating risk and being told lies.

Let’s say in the first paragraph my dream came true and stern said hey we got a big investment, guaranteed money coming in so we can pay for more engineers, then they recruit me, I uproot my family. Then I get there and they say “well investment fell through sorry”; I mean is that my fault for believing them? Nope I was told a guarantee was in place when it wasn’t.

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#2509 5 years ago
 
ROB

Rdoyle1978

Pinside member

7y 117K 18,137 14 6 1

Quoted from Roostking:

Jpop had art because he ripped off the real artist. Zombie Yeti.

Oh damn. That story just keeps getting worse and worse..

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#2510 5 years ago
 
JHG

wolftownjeff

Pinside+ Frequent

US Madison, VA

12y 81,800 869 6 1

Will Deeproot be at TPF?
Hoping to get Barry Oursler's autograph?

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#2511 5 years ago
 
ROB

Rdoyle1978

Pinside member

7y 117K 18,137 14 6 1

Quoted from wolftownjeff:

Will Deeproot be at TPF?
Hoping to get Barry Oursler's autograph?

No, they won't. It's been covered many pages back - they bailed what seems like several months ago

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#2512 5 years ago
 
OFF

dannylite

Pinside member

US Baltimore, MD

10y 52,550 335 56

Deeproot "couldn't" care less if they {never} made a pin.

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#2513 5 years ago
 
DMM

DS_Nadine

Pinside member

DE Düsseldorf

8y 72,800 4,104 2

Quoted from dannylite:

Deeproot "couldn't" care less if they {never} made a pin.

They invest a lot of money at the moment, wich would be completely burned if they don't manage to generate some income out of it, so...

....care to elaborate?

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#2514 5 years ago
 
RPA

RA77

Pinside+ Frequent

11y 105K 2,306 13

have great respect for Deeproot working hard behind closed doors

Some epic reveal when the time is right will be amazing

Such a big call the expectations are so high !

TPF this weekend, so want to be there

I stumbled across this gold tonight

DR launch !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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#2515 5 years ago
 
EDG

Richthofen

Pinside member

11y 75,800 2,695

Quoted from DS_Nadine:

They invest a lot of money at the moment, wich would be completely burned if they don't manage to generate some income out of it, so...

It isn't their own money, so...

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#2516 5 years ago
 
DMM

DS_Nadine

Pinside member

DE Düsseldorf

8y 72,800 4,104 2

Quoted from Richthofen:

It isn't their own money, so...

...that that proves that they have the trust of others that they're no frauds.

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#2517 5 years ago
 
JLG

JodyG

Ramp-O-Matic

6y 143K 4,612 6 21 1

Quoted from DS_Nadine:

...that that proves that they have the trust of others that they're no frauds.

PT Barnum had a saying about that...

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#2518 5 years ago
 
DMM

DS_Nadine

Pinside member

DE Düsseldorf

8y 72,800 4,104 2

Quoted from JodyG:

PT Barnum had a saying about that...

I thought the "pinside =cancer" thing was Steve Ritchie?

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#2519 5 years ago
 
2+2

Jgaltr56

Pinside+ Member

9y 76,350 1,200 15

Quoted from dannylite:

Deeproot "couldn't" care less if they {never} made a pin.

Quoted from DS_Nadine:

They invest a lot of money at the moment, wich would be completely burned if they don't manage to generate some income out of it, so...
....care to elaborate?

He's just being a (double) negative Nelly

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#2520 5 years ago
 
DAD

Yelobird

The Mod Couple

US Wheaton, IL

20y 160K 10,056 44 37

Quoted from Rdoyle1978:

No, they won't. It's been covered many pages back - they bailed what seems like several months ago

They opted to delay the unveil of games not sure that means the will not Be there as a show sponsor. Personally looking forward to whatever/whenever they release. Should be interesting.

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#2521 5 years ago
 
ROB

Rdoyle1978

Pinside member

7y 117K 18,137 14 6 1

Quoted from Yelobird:

They opted to delay the unveil of games not sure that means the will not Be there as a show sponsor. Personally looking forward to whatever/whenever they release. Should be interesting.

True, true - I was referring to them being there as a vendor

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#2522 5 years ago
 
SS

Shapeshifter

Pinside member

13y 150K 10,466 8 144

Is it 5 days of nothing now?

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#2523 5 years ago
 
???

Sinestro

Inactive member

Unknown

7y 59,400 2,410 1

Quoted from Shapeshifter:

Is it 5 days of nothing now?

No, it's zero days of something.

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#2524 5 years ago
 
TMB

Roostking

Pinside+ Addict

10y 106K 8,563 2

Quoted from Shapeshifter:

Is it 5 days of nothing now?

Why do people comment before reading the entire thread? This was announced months ago

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#2525 5 years ago
 
EDG

Richthofen

Pinside member

11y 75,800 2,695

Quoted from DS_Nadine:

...that that proves that they have the trust of others that they're no frauds.

Andrew Heighway had a whole company full of people who trusted him. And a ton of customers that did too.
JPop also had a ton of customers who trusted him.
Kevin Kulek was trusted by many depositors.

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#2526 5 years ago
 
DMM

DS_Nadine

Pinside member

DE Düsseldorf

8y 72,800 4,104 2

Quoted from Richthofen:

Andrew Heighway had a whole company full of people who trusted him. And a ton of customers that did too.
JPop also had a ton of customers who trusted him.
Kevin Kulek was trusted by many depositors.

They all had customers with too much wishful thinking, not investors or other successfull business.
That's the biggest difference here, as we all know and was stated a couple of hundred times allready.

I personally didn't trust any of those endeavours and propably woudln't with deeproot but the nice thing is: I don't need to!
If they ship games, I may buy one if I like it. If they don't, I don't.

I root for options, very much liking the way AP is taking for more feature packed games and like to see more if this.

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#2527 5 years ago
 
SS

Shapeshifter

Pinside member

13y 150K 10,466 8 144

Quoted from Roostking:

Why do people comment before reading the entire thread? This was announced months ago

Yeah, I know.

It was sarcasm but you obviously didn't get it

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#2528 5 years ago
 
OFF

dannylite

Pinside member

US Baltimore, MD

10y 52,550 335 56

Quoted from Jgaltr56:

He's just being a (double) negative Nelly

Yes I was, sorry. After reading 10 pages of speculation my head was spinning. I hope deeproot is successful in the end but I didn't care for the way they came out acting like they were the next best slice of pinball bread. Many here have had a taste of that shit sandwich before and we know how it (usually) ends. Stay humble DR. I hope you are in those stages at this point being waist deep in it. You'll have many more fans if you do.

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#2529 5 years ago
 
DRM

iceman44

Pinside+ Pro!

US Boerne, TX

13y 162K 26,878 28 49

Quoted from frolic:

Reminds me of a scene from Silicon Valley where a receptionist is offering the boys some fancy coconut water while they waited for a meeting, and his response was "I get it, you're funded."
Tech, however, can scale to massive size which is the bet everyone makes on it. Pinball manufacturing, well, we have a pretty good grasp of the potential of that and endless cash burn is not a recipe for success.

Let me spell it out for you guys again..............

The last figures i saw was around $13 million raised on a Reg D filing. Probably more now?

It's public record via the SEC. They raised the $$$ paying "Investment Advisors" an 8% commission to get their clients to buy into this DP venture.

It's speculative and the investors are "accredited" and that's what this type of venture is all about.

And the operative phrase is like Frolic says, "can we scale up" once we get these pins out there and on the line for sale.

I really hope so. This could be an exciting venture that provides competition to Stern especially.

But they have to sell a shitload of pins and time is not on their side. Let's get moving!

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#2530 5 years ago
 
DON

Fulltilt

Pinside+ Pro!

US Nowhere Ridge, TN

12y 114K 6,756 8

Quoted from Roostking:

Why do people comment before reading the entire thread?

You are on Pinside. (:

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#2531 5 years ago
 
TMB

Roostking

Pinside+ Addict

10y 106K 8,563 2

Quoted from Fulltilt:

You are on Pinside. (:

Well I guess it was sarcastic, but I missed it. Either way, come on dr make some games and raise the bar, while lowering cost!

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#2532 5 years ago
 
LTS

lancestorm

Pinside member

US Cincinnati, OH

12y 68,300 1,251 2

Quoted from Fulltilt:

You are on Pinside. (:

Ain’t nobody got time to sift through 2500 comments in this thread!

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#2533 5 years ago
 
DON

Fulltilt

Pinside+ Pro!

US Nowhere Ridge, TN

12y 114K 6,756 8

Quoted from lancestorm:

Ain’t nobody got time to sift through 2500 comments in this thread!

Try going through 24k+ in the JPop thread!

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#2534 5 years ago
 
2+2

Jgaltr56

Pinside+ Member

9y 76,350 1,200 15

Quoted from dannylite:

Yes I was, sorry. After reading 10 pages of speculation my head was spinning. I hope deeproot is successful in the end but I didn't care for the way they came out acting like they were the next best slice of pinball bread. Many here have had a taste of that shit sandwich before and we know how it (usually) ends. Stay humble DR. I hope you are in those stages at this point being waist deep in it. You'll have many more fans if you do.

I tend to agree. I actually thought you were going for the old double negative = positive routine.

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#2535 5 years ago
 
DMM

DS_Nadine

Pinside member

DE Düsseldorf

8y 72,800 4,104 2

So... nothing, nothing, not even the slightest hint of anything on TPF?

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#2536 5 years ago
 
AJP

parsonsaj

Pinside+ Frequent

6y 75,550 949

Quoted from DS_Nadine:

So... nothing, nothing, not even the slightest hint of anything on TPF?

They had literally zero presence here. No booth, no seminars, no nothing. Last year the whole place was filled with their banners promoting the “5 Days of Deeproot”

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#2537 5 years ago
 
ZIG

bigian

Pinside member

GB Belfast

11y 26,150 19 15

Well Barry is here (TPF)

He might give away some snippets of info

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#2538 5 years ago
 
904

HighProtein

904 Pinball Zine

13y 167K 6,347

Quoted from parsonsaj:

They had literally zero presence here. No booth, no seminars, no nothing. Last year the whole place was filled with their banners promoting the “5 Days of Deeproot”

LOL @ no nothing...
Thats a double negative haha.
No Nothing pinball > all boutiques!

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#2539 5 years ago
 
BAP

orangestorm87

Pinside member

US Cedarburg, WI

9y 47,900 586 3

Quoted from parsonsaj:

They had literally zero presence here. No booth, no seminars, no nothing. Last year the whole place was filled with their banners promoting the “5 Days of Deeproot”

And this is why people are able to take shots at them. They were the ones touting this 5 days of Deep Root thing. Yes they took it back later, but with that amount of bluster and then you have to walk back on your words, you don't look the best.

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#2540 5 years ago
 
MAX

MarkInc

Pinside member

CA London, ON

12y 95,150 808 7 24

Isn't Robert off on a honeymoon? Married yesterday.

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#2541 5 years ago
 
EDG

Richthofen

Pinside member

11y 75,800 2,695

Not true. Deeproot spent the money to sponsor the tournament

image (resized).jpgimage (resized).jpg

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#2542 5 years ago
 
???

adamross

Pinside+ Frequent

US Los Angeles, CA

6y 81,050 1,364 5

My theory is that Deeproot doesn't actually exist. It's a mythical creature, like dragons or unicorns.

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#2543 5 years ago
 
JLG

JodyG

Ramp-O-Matic

6y 143K 4,612 6 21 1

Pretty big statement that they have zero to share at a huge event in their backyard. Not a good sign at all. Especially after running their mouths so hot and heavy last year.

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#2544 5 years ago
 
DON

Fulltilt

Pinside+ Pro!

US Nowhere Ridge, TN

12y 114K 6,756 8

So you Texas Pinballers come across this?
Interesting is an understatement.

pasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).png
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#2545 5 years ago
 
ROB

Rdoyle1978

Pinside member

7y 117K 18,137 14 6 1

Quoted from Fulltilt:

So you Texas Pinballers come across this?
Interesting is an understatement.[quoted image]

It was posted in another thread, but.. yeah. Big statement. Hopefully it’s not John P.’s own truck.. LOL

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#2546 5 years ago
 
DON

Fulltilt

Pinside+ Pro!

US Nowhere Ridge, TN

12y 114K 6,756 8

Quoted from Rdoyle1978:

It was posted in another thread, but.. yeah. Big statement. Hopefully it’s not John P.’s own truck.. LOL

I'm wondering if the TN tag is taken...

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#2547 5 years ago
 
WUF

wolfemaaan

Inactive member

5y 69,650 1,495

Quoted from Fulltilt:

I'm wondering if the TN tag is taken...

Everyone is focused on J-Pops next Machine, but what about Nordman’s? I see him on the roster, what is his next Pin?

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#2548 5 years ago
 
DPT

deeproot

Inactive member

Unknown

9y 36,400 69

Quoted from wolfemaaan:

Everyone is focused on J-Pops next Machine, but what about Nordman’s? I see him on the roster, what is his next Pin?

The first has internal code of MA. The second he announced at Expo.

—Robert dT

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#2549 5 years ago
 
NAD

Bublehead

Pinside member

US San Tan Valley, AZ

8y 92,300 4,441 10

I stopped and talked with Barry and I asked him a question, and here is what that was like and, if not verbatim, my apologies to Barry-

"I know you can not reveal anything and I am not asking you to, but can you tell me, as far as working for DR, do they give you as much satisfaction and freedom as a designer as you had back at WMS, and how do you like working for DR?"

He replied, "You mean as far as what we can and can not do in the machine?, well we have as much control as we did, even more so actually, to do what we want to in the machine. But we are working, heads down, it's very much like it was back then, we are doing some great things, you are going to be pleased with what we are doing."

Not sure how many of you have ever met Barry Oursler and talked with him at any length, but as a Pinbot owner and fan of Barry's work, I have had the chance to talk at length at several Expos and now at TPF. His statement was made in earnest, and from the twinkle in his eyes (one that I have not seen since Bally Williams closed their pin division) he looked sideways and smiled, but just enough so you could barely tell.

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#2550 5 years ago
 
JJZ

toyotaboy

RandOM Pinball

US Allyn, WA

12y 184K 11,930 3 14

Quoted from Bublehead:

Not sure how many of you have ever met Barry Oursler and talked with him at any length, but as a Pinbot owner and fan of Barry's work, I have had the chance to talk at length at several Expos and now at TPF. His statement was made in earnest, and from the twinkle in his eyes (one that I have not seen since Bally Williams closed their pin division) he looked sideways and smiled, but just enough so you could barely tell.

Barry doesn't joke around, he tells it like it is. If he says he's happy and thinks customers will be happy with the product, it probably will be.

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