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(Topic ID: 203700)

deeproot Pinball thread

By pin2d

6 years ago


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  • Latest reply 20 hours ago by sgtski1978
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#25351 2 years ago
 
JSS

JStoltz

Pinside member

6y 62,050 822 4

Quoted from yancy:

I wouldn't put too much stock into someone being too lazy to replace a calendar. Parking snooper reported cars in the lot well into this year.

Hah, fair point on the laziness. Especially since December is usually the last month on a physical calendar and its not like folks rush to the store to replace it right away.

There’s some kind of joke in here about deeproot’s missed deadlines and old calendars…

Quoted from Mr68:

The pictures were taken 4 days ago on August 28th and I posted them that same day.

Oh gotcha, thanks! Must have missed this when you first mentioned. Still has me wondering when the place was so significantly cleaned out. It obviously doesn’t have the “we’ll be right back” look to it.

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#25352 2 years ago
 
WLC

BMore-Pinball

Pinside member

12y 122K 4,985 33

Quoted from benheck:

The "level of stupid" it takes to buy into this grows with each failure. Most rich people are not stupid.

Quoted from CrazyLevi:

rich = smart? Not buying it. Read the posts here daily and you'll put that thinking on Ice

Possibly not stupidity but a low level of monetary risk.
You need to put it in perspective

If I make a million a year - what kind of risk is it to put $2,500 down on a pinball machine?
0.0025% of my yearly income or about 12% of 1 of my weekly paychecks - so big deal

I call it an acceptable level of risk if you have the capital and you had the desire for a RAZA

 Added over 3 years ago:

Sorry math error
Meant to say 0.25%

Added over 3 years ago:

Possibly not stupidity but a low level of monetary risk.
You need to put it in perspective

If I make a million a year - what kind of risk is it to put $2,500 down on a pinball machine?
0.25% of my yearly income or about 12% of 1 of my weekly paychecks - so big deal

I call it an acceptable level of risk if you have the capital and you had the desire for a RAZA

Post last edited 2 years ago: “math error”

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#25353 2 years ago
 
WLC

BMore-Pinball

Pinside member

12y 122K 4,985 33

anybody else, click to see the 1 downvote on this post

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#25354 2 years ago
 
KIM

Mr68

Pinside+ Frequent

US Boulder, CO

12y 150K 8,649

Quoted from JStoltz:

Oh gotcha, thanks! Must have missed this when you first mentioned. Still has me wondering when the place was so significantly cleaned out. It obviously doesn’t have the “we’ll be right back” look to it.

As a best guess, I'm gonna call the move out as July 1st, 2021. On June 7th, 25 cars were reported in the parking lot. The following report on July 16th showed zero cars.

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#25355 2 years ago
 
BEN

benheck

Pinside member

US Madison, WI

11y 115K 5,507

Quoted from EalaDubhSidhe:

Telling though how much crossover there is between what Jim and Chris are both saying about artificial scarcity and value, about what you get for your money versus what you should expect, warnings of what may happen if the cycle continues unchecked, and now about the potential for microtransactions and the abuse thereof; these all being more universal to the core of the respective markets. Because 'pro-consumer' doesn't have to mean 'anti-capitalist'.

I used to watch Jim Sterling all the time but he's become very one note. He's also one of those "game journalists" who can't do math and think they should stay $60 forever.

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#25356 2 years ago
 
KIM

Mr68

Pinside+ Frequent

US Boulder, CO

12y 150K 8,649

Quoted from Mr68:

As a best guess, I'm gonna call the move out as July 1st, 2021. On June 7th, 25 cars were reported in the parking lot. The following report on July 16th showed zero cars.

On July 30th, this was the last communication from Deeproot to customers.

Dear RAZA Customer:
We are sorry for the length of time without an update. We have been contacted by a few of you within the last few weeks. The main topics were how many people took the refund offer (3), is the refund offer still available (No), and what the status of the RAZA builds are.
A legal matter affecting RAZA arose around a month ago that we did not expect. We were advised by counsel to not send out any substantive communication while they worked to resolve it amicably. We have taken that advice while patiently waiting for it to be resolved. The back-and-forth has taken much, much longer than we expected. So we are providing this brief update so you understand what the delay is about.
We cannot discuss the parties or what the complaint is about. We cannot provide a timeline. What we can say is that we are working hard to resolve/settle it and we hope will be resolved very soon. We will be able to give a meaningful update at that time. Until then...
-Robert J. Mueller, Principal
deeproot Pinball

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/twip-is-deeproot-the-next-misadventure-or-a-pinball-revolution/page/418#post-6415568

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#25357 2 years ago
 
BAB

anathematize

Pinside member

5y 58,050 496

Quoted from benheck:

I used to watch Jim Sterling all the time but he's become very one note. He's also one of those "game journalists" who can't do math and think they should stay $60 forever.

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#25358 2 years ago
 
FEC

Syco54645

Pinside member

US Pittsburgh, PA

11y 78,300 3,101 12 15

Quoted from Rarehero:

[quoted image]

Or I really don't feel like reading a 500+ page thread to get the gist of what actually happened.

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#25359 2 years ago
 
FEC

Syco54645

Pinside member

US Pittsburgh, PA

11y 78,300 3,101 12 15

Quoted from John_I:

Go to the first page and start by reading all of the key posts listed for the last two weeks...
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/twip-is-deeproot-the-next-misadventure-or-a-pinball-revolution

Thanks, this is what I was looking for, basically where to start reading.

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#25360 2 years ago
 
BEN

benheck

Pinside member

US Madison, WI

11y 115K 5,507

Every so often my IRL friends ask "what's happening with Jpop these days?" so last night at cigar bar I'm like "well LEMME TELL YA!"

Insane that it's come this far.

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#25361 2 years ago
 
CHK

thechakapakuni

Inactive member

4y 61,300 2,093 30

It can go further. Don’t stop now

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#25362 2 years ago
 
LEV

CrazyLevi

Crazy Levi's Pinball

US New York, NY

10y 148K 33,560

Quoted from Syco54645:

Or I really don't feel like reading a 500+ page thread to get the gist of what actually happened.

I always thought the entire point of this place was to waste time during work hours but people always be like "Hey can you summarize everything for me?!"

Also they always want you to summarize something that happened on Facebook because they refuse to get on Facebook and I'm all "tough titty, get on Facebook if you want to know what's going on on Facebook!!!"

That's all for now.

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#25363 2 years ago
 
WOZ

Pinballs

Pinside member

GB London

10y 52,800 992

Another article, this one talking about RAZA more than most. Based on the photo, a lot of people are going to think Dredd is RAZA!

https://www.expressnews.com/business/local/article/SEC-San-Antonio-lawyer-investment-funds-Deeproot-16429262.php

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#25364 2 years ago
 
???

pinlink

Pinside member

Unknown

8y 72,150 2,207

Quoted from Pinballs:

Another article, this one talking about RAZA more than most. Based on the photo, a lot of people are going to think Dredd is RAZA!
https://www.expressnews.com/business/local/article/SEC-San-Antonio-lawyer-investment-funds-Deeproot-16429262.php

That article is behind a paywall, boo

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#25365 2 years ago
 
AXE

YeOldPinPlayer

Inactive member

Unknown

8y 111K 6,454 4 12

Quoted from pinlink:

That article is behind a paywall, boo

Maybe if your browser is misconfigured to allow scripts. It comes up for me.

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#25366 2 years ago
 
C F

frolic

Pinside+ Frequent

11y 149K 9,809

Quoted from pinlink:

That article is behind a paywall, boo

SEC: San Antonio lawyer used investment funds as 'piggy bank' to pay personal expenses, businesses
Photo of Patrick Danner
Patrick Danner
, Staff writer
Sep. 1, 2021
Updated: Sep. 1, 2021 5:32 p.m.

Federal securities regulators have accused a San Antonio lawyer and investment adviser of using money raised from investors as his own “piggy bank” to pay personal expenses and those of his businesses — including for a pinball manufacturer.

The Securities and Exchange Commission alleges Robert Jeffrey Mueller spent more than $1.5 million of investor money to pay for his second and third weddings, engagement rings and wedding bands for both wives, a divorce, vacation cruises, his daughter’s private school tuition and a condo in Hawaii.

Mueller and his Deeproot Funds “funneled more than $30 million” in investor funds to businesses he controlled, including Deeproot Pinball, the SEC says. The pinball company last year was developing its debut game, “Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland.”

Mueller raised about $58 million from nearly 300 investors through Deeproot Funds over several years, the SEC alleges in a civil lawsuit filed in San Antonio federal court. The agency wants a court to order Mueller to turn over his allegedly ill-gotten gains.

Calls to Mueller, 46, and his attorney were not returned Wednesday.

Mueller asserted his Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination when SEC counsel asked him about the use of assets of the funds he advised to pay personal expenses, according to the lawsuit.

The State Bar of Texas’ website shows Mueller has no disciplinary history and is eligible to practice law.

Mueller faces various securities fraud-related charges. The SEC seeks to prevent him from offering or selling securities and to prohibit him from serving as an officer or director of any securities issuer.

Mueller and Deeproot Funds were investment advisers to two pooled investment funds launched in 2014. They persuaded investors, many of them retirees, to cash out their annuities and individual retirement accounts to invest in the funds, the SEC’s lawsuit says.

Investors were told their funds would be invested in life insurance policies and Deeproot-related businesses to provide “relatively safe returns,” the complaint says. Mueller used a company called Policy Services Inc. to purchase life insurance policies for the funds. But the SEC says he used Policy Services’ bank accounts to pay personal expenses. Less than $10 million was spent on policies, the SEC adds.

The private placement memoranda given to investors “did not uniformly describe how the funds would invest in the Deeproot-affiliated businesses,” the suit says. A 2015 version of a PPM for one of the funds, though, described an investment in Deeproot Tech and its “sole project,” Deeproot Pinball, in exchange for Class B shares in the pinball company.

The lawsuit adds that the funds never actually received any ownership or other interests in return for the significant assets that went to the various Deeproot entities. Those Deeproot companies are listed as “relief defendants” in the lawsuit. Those companies are not accused of any wrongdoing, but their operations were funded with assets from the funds, the SEC says.

“Mueller falsely informed investors and prospective investors that Deeproot and Policy Services were structured to minimize the opportunity for very kind of fraud that was actually then occurring,” the SEC adds.

Since the first investors joined the funds in 2015, the SEC says, the various life insurance policies and Deeproot-affiliated business ventures yielded less than $1.9 million in revenue. Yet Mueller paid $2.8 million in monthly returns to certain investors.

Bank account records show that at least $820,000 in payments were made to some existing investors from money raised from new investor contributions to the funds in a “Ponzi-like scheme,” the SEC adds.

In an interview last year, Mueller said he chose San Antonio to launch Deeproot Pinball because he’d spent most of his life here and because the Texas economy is favorable for pinball manufacturing and development.

[email protected]

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#25367 2 years ago
 
MOO

snakesnsparklers

Pinside member

9y 92,800 4,828

All - please use the modified Robert image like this one for memes. It is much funnier than the normal image!

e2978807a89476aa0a3bc4ab4ee1ba97406b2d1e (resized).pnge2978807a89476aa0a3bc4ab4ee1ba97406b2d1e (resized).png
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#25368 2 years ago
 
III

TreyBo69

Pinside member

5y 136K 8,456

SoSmol (resized).pngSoSmol (resized).png
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#25369 2 years ago
 
C F

frolic

Pinside+ Frequent

11y 149K 9,809

What a house of cards collapsing.

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#25370 2 years ago
 
JSS

JStoltz

Pinside member

6y 62,050 822 4

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#25371 2 years ago
 
VIC

PinMonk

Pin Monk

9y 183K 30,218 16

Quoted from benheck:

I used to watch Jim Sterling all the time but he's become very one note. He's also one of those "game journalists" who can't do math and think they should stay $60 forever.

Basically the term "game journalist" is an oxymoron. Almost all (all?) of them fail the actual journalist code of ethics. I have personal experience with many of their transgressions over the years, even the ones publicly crusading for "ethics" in game journalism. It's a very dirty, corrupt job.

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#25372 2 years ago
 
VIC

PinMonk

Pin Monk

9y 183K 30,218 16

Quoted from pinlink:

That article is behind a paywall, boo

Firefox.

Turn off javascript.

Load URL.

Enjoy.

Works for most of the begging screens on news sites (including the one you tried to access).

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#25373 2 years ago
 
III

TreyBo69

Pinside member

5y 136K 8,456

ManyFacesOfBobert (resized).pngManyFacesOfBobert (resized).png
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#25374 2 years ago
 
BMP

Palmer

Pinside member

5y 101K 2,507 4

thumb (resized).jpgthumb (resized).jpg
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#25375 2 years ago
 
DJQ

DanQverymuch

Pinside+ Addict

US Neenah, WI

12y 98,550 4,531

Quoted from BMore-Pinball:

If I make a million a year - what kind of risk is it to put $2,500 down on a pinball machine?
0.0025% of my yearly income or about 12% of 1 of my weekly paychecks - so big deal

0.0025% of a million is 25, not 2500.

I guess your million dollar a year job doesn't involve math?

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#25376 2 years ago
 
ROB

Rdoyle1978

Pinside member

7y 117K 18,144 14 6

Quoted from PinMonk:

Basically the term "game journalist" is an oxymoron. Almost all (all?) of them fail the actual journalist code of ethics. I have personal experience with many of their transgressions over the years, even the ones publicly crusading for "ethics" in game journalism. It a very dirty, corrupt job.

I went to ACTUAL school for journalism. Ethics is pounded into your head for 2+ straight years, plus there is a sermon at every local newspaper job you work. It is A Big Deal. Violating it is a Huge Deal in the community - people know for years and your career can be dramatically jeopardized.

Fun fact: almost none of the people on cable TV that masquerade as "journalists" actually are. Therefore ...ethics, what ethics? This still pisses me off.

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#25377 2 years ago
 
JJZ

toyotaboy

RandOM Pinball

US Allyn, WA

12y 184K 11,939 3 14

so I found this through google image search. No way "farewell dinosaur" was a game, even JPOP isn't that scatterbrain. I'm guessing this represents all the artists leaving and doing one last collage project?

1farewell dinosaur (resized).jpg1farewell dinosaur (resized).jpg
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#25378 2 years ago
 
JSS

JStoltz

Pinside member

6y 62,050 822 4

Quoted from toyotaboy:

so I found this through google image search. No way "farewell dinosaur" was a game, even JPOP isn't that scatterbrain. I'm guessing this represents all the artists leaving and doing one last collage project?[quoted image]

Could be my memory playing tricks on me, but I feel like I recognize that from an early version of deeproot's website? Seems like maybe that was a mashup of early concept art for their list of titles?

I see anthropomorphized foods (Food Truck), some vaguely zombie/alien aligned characters (RAZA), what looks like maybe some Alice in Wonderland type characters, futuristic characters (Nordman's Futuristic Theme), Some Arthurian looking fellas (Merlin's Arcade), etc.

Edit: Yeah-- here's a link: https://deeprootstudios.com/img/hero/slide-2.jpg

And the others:

https://deeprootstudios.com/img/hero/slide-1.jpg
https://deeprootstudios.com/img/hero/slide-3.jpg

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#25379 2 years ago
 
KIM

Mr68

Pinside+ Frequent

US Boulder, CO

12y 150K 8,649

Quoted from JStoltz:

Could be my memory playing tricks on me, but I feel like I recognize that from an early version of deeproot's website? Seems like maybe that was a mashup of early concept art for their list of titles?
I see anthropomorphized foods (Food Truck), some vaguely zombie/alien aligned characters (RAZA), what looks like maybe some Alice in Wonderland type characters, futuristic characters (Nordman's Futuristic Theme), Some Arthurian looking fellas (Merlin's Arcade), etc.

That huge robot in the very back is the SEC.

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#25380 2 years ago
 
JJZ

toyotaboy

RandOM Pinball

US Allyn, WA

12y 184K 11,939 3 14

"yeaaaaa.. i like money tho"

rob_I_like_money (resized).jpgrob_I_like_money (resized).jpg
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#25381 2 years ago
 
LOW

Mogg

Pinside member

7y 43,050 218

@ scandal- When can we hear the tale of farewell dinosaur?

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#25382 2 years ago
 
CHK

thechakapakuni

Inactive member

4y 61,300 2,093 30

So does anybody have a Deadpool date on when RM gets indicted? I’m gonna guess several months of investigation/grand jury so April 2022?

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#25383 2 years ago
 
STK

flynnibus

Pinside+ Frequent

11y 134K 13,242

Quoted from Rdoyle1978:

I went to ACTUAL school for journalism. Ethics is pounded into your head for 2+ straight years, plus there is a sermon at every local newspaper job you work. It is A Big Deal. Violating it is a Huge Deal in the community - people know for years and your career can be dramatically jeopardized.

And then the internet happened...

Revenue turned to clicks and trying to be shared... and everyone is nameless articles online while individuals try to build a 'brand' and online personalities rather than a reputation for strong journalism.

It's dead jim...

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#25384 2 years ago
 
VIC

PinMonk

Pin Monk

9y 183K 30,218 16

Quoted from flynnibus:

And then the internet happened...
Revenue turned to clicks and trying to be shared... and everyone is nameless articles online while individuals try to build a 'brand' and online personalities rather than a reputation for strong journalism.
It's dead jim...

Gaming "journalism" was dead before the internet blew up in the 2000s. It had been corrupt since the 1980s.

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#25385 2 years ago
 
STK

flynnibus

Pinside+ Frequent

11y 134K 13,242

Quoted from PinMonk:

Gaming "journalism" was dead before the internet blew up in the 2000s. It had been corrupt since the 1980s.

Well all the big names were never journalists to start with... just product marketing At least this was an area the internet did help initially - democratizing access to eyeballs and cheap publication. Unfortunately, the 'lets make it a business' aspect creeps into it all and it once again becomes about 'access', 'image', and making money -- Not reporting.

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#25386 2 years ago
 
GAC

Rarehero

Pinside member

US Los Angeles, CA

12y 134K 23,147 22 119

Quoted from PinMonk:

Gaming "journalism" was dead before the internet blew up in the 2000s. It had been corrupt since the 1980s.

You're telling me that Sushi X and Nick Rox weren't actual journalists!??!?!

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#25387 2 years ago
 
VIC

PinMonk

Pin Monk

9y 183K 30,218 16

Quoted from Rarehero:

You're telling me that Sushi X and Nick Rox weren't actual journalists!??!?!

OMG, the stories I could tell.

But Diehard were never passing themselves off as journalists anyway. They were always enthusiasts, and often very entertaining. EGM especially was trying to wear the game journalism badge while allowing journalism corruption all the time, sometimes blatantly.

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#25388 2 years ago
 
???

Pickle

Pinside member

US Pearland, TX

11y 78,800 3,002 5

Quoted from Rdoyle1978:I went to ACTUAL school for journalism. Ethics is pounded into your head for 2+ straight years, plus there is a sermon at every local newspaper job you work. It is A Big Deal. Violating it is a Huge Deal in the community - people know for years and your career can be dramatically jeopardized.
Fun fact: almost none of the people on cable TV that masquerade as "journalists" actually are. Therefore ...ethics, what ethics? This still pisses me off.

Ethics in journalism….what a joke. The only time you hear about is when a writer gets caught and is blackballed and it becomes a huge scandal. If there were real ethics trash rags would be advertised as entertainment only. There are some writers/journalists that are generally good so can’t say all of them have no ethics. I’m sure it is a cut throat business.

It’s just like baseball…there is the rule book and then there is the “players” rules.

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#25389 2 years ago
 
BBJ

blueberryjohnson

Pinside+ Frequent

US Honolulu, HI

8y 101K 4,732 1

A former deeproot employee weighs in

Screen Shot 2021-09-02 at 2.04.06 PM (resized).pngScreen Shot 2021-09-02 at 2.04.06 PM (resized).png
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#25390 2 years ago
 
LEV

CrazyLevi

Crazy Levi's Pinball

US New York, NY

10y 148K 33,560

Quoted from blueberryjohnson:

A former deeproot employee weighs in
[quoted image]

Nobody was getting rich off this scam except for Mueller and his family.

The rest of these guys were working stiffs, more or less. I don't think going after their grocery money is going to fix anything.

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#25391 2 years ago
 
DSS

Haymaker

Pinside member

US Rockford, IL

9y 125K 6,556 15 16

Quoted from Rarehero:

You're telling me that Sushi X and Nick Rox weren't actual journalists!??!?!

Lol sushi x... now that takes me back

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#25392 2 years ago
 
MEZ

meSz

Pinside member

12y 102K 7,426 1

This thread just keeps on giving ............................. WHAT, I have no idea!

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#25393 2 years ago
 
CVJ

SmallyBells

Pinside member

US Kansas City, OR

4y 22,400 84 6

…Giving a interview on HBO about his prior thoughts?

E09962B4-A209-4798-9A02-C0F0C3988400 (resized).jpegE09962B4-A209-4798-9A02-C0F0C3988400 (resized).jpeg

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#25394 2 years ago
 
GAC

Rarehero

Pinside member

US Los Angeles, CA

12y 134K 23,147 22 119

Quoted from PinMonk:

OMG, the stories I could tell.
But Diehard were never passing themselves off as journalists anyway. They were always enthusiasts, and often very entertaining. EGM especially was trying to wear the game journalism badge while allowing journalism corruption all the time, sometimes blatantly.

Whatever happened to all those people? There's such a vibrant retro gaming scene...I imagine they'd be part of it in some way.

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#25395 2 years ago
 
KRH

thirdedition

What The Flip

9y 62,300 950 25

Quoted from PinMonk:

OMG, the stories I could tell.
But Diehard were never passing themselves off as journalists anyway. They were always enthusiasts, and often very entertaining. EGM especially was trying to wear the game journalism badge while allowing journalism corruption all the time, sometimes blatantly.

Jeff Gerstmann is still a threat is all I have to say.

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#25396 2 years ago
 
DRM

iceman44

Pinside+ Pro!

US Boerne, TX

13y 162K 26,902 28 49

Quoted from SmallyBells:

…Giving a interview on HBO about his prior thoughts?
[quoted image]

That’s what y’all need. Except I’m the psychiatrist in this movie! Gonna break it all down for you so you can move on with your lives.

I know it’s very satisfying that Bobby’s future can make anybody feel good about their own situation. It’s cathartic in a really good way.

Benny can’t live a happy life unless Jpop and Raza are jettisoned out into space on the next Bezos shuttle.

It worries me.

And 3, 2, 1…… where’s Benny.

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#25397 2 years ago
 
VIC

PinMonk

Pin Monk

9y 183K 30,218 16

Quoted from Rarehero:

Whatever happened to all those people? There's such a vibrant retro gaming scene...I imagine they'd be part of it in some way.

This is more "over a beer" in person conversation since lots of it is catty and insider-y and not public. I will say I think Dave H is still in Westlake Village, last I heard. I haven't talked to him in probably 10 years.

EDIT: I really am surprised a TV movie wasn't made about the whole Diehard Gamefan experience. It was CRAZY and should never have worked even for as long as it did. I still have the racist review issue (actual "review" they published by mistake below). I was on vacation in Hawaii, heard it was being pulled and found a store with the only three copies on Kauai and bought them.

Gamefanblunder.jpgGamefanblunder.jpg
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#25398 2 years ago
 
SPM

Castlecade

Pinside member

US Fond Du Lac, WI

2y 30,050 52 8 7

Quoted from benheck:

In a way Robert scammed himself.
His original sales goals for MG/RAZA/AIW were insane, something like 8k total units. Insanity, but I guess he believed his own BS?
So he takes money out of the till. "I can double this money and put back what I took before the boss notices it's gone!"
But now it's taking longer than he thought to develop a pin.
So he doubles down. Sunk cost fallacy. Spends more to shore up the original "investment" Gets even deeper in the hole and... Here we are.

Are you saying John out con-ed the con?

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#25399 2 years ago
 
GAC

Rarehero

Pinside member

US Los Angeles, CA

12y 134K 23,147 22 119

Quoted from PinMonk:

This is more "over a beer" in person conversation since lots of it is catty and insider-y and not public. I will say I think Dave H is still in Westlake Village, last I heard. I haven't talked to him in probably 10 years.
EDIT: I really am surprised a TV movie wasn't made about the whole Diehard Gamefan experience. It was CRAZY and should never have worked even for as long as it did. I still have the racist review issue (actual "review" they published by mistake below). I was on vacation in Hawaii, heard it was being pulled and found a store with the only three copies on Kauai and bought them.[quoted image]

LOL - I had every issue, and since it was a sports review, I probably skipped past it & didn’t even notice.

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#25400 2 years ago
 
ALC

AstonEnthusiast

Pinside member

10y 77,300 553 1

Only 2 pages of posts in 24 hours? This topic is losing steam...

On another note and as a resident of CA (I know), I sent Deeproot a formal CCPA request (California Consumer Privacy Act) requesting any & all personal identifying information (no cheating - Robert can't delegate this to Cary). At any rate, they have another 19 days to comply. I'm not expecting anything, but hoping to be a PIA for Robert.

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