(Topic ID: 203700)

deeproot Pinball thread

By pin2d

6 years ago


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#25051 2 years ago
Quoted from PismoArcade:

Looks like This Week In Pinball is another casualty of the whole Deeproot mess. Blackmail? Threats? Not cool.
https://www.thisweekinpinball.com/this-week-in-pinball-hiatus/?fbclid=IwAR1pEwaH2RBO-5ODw9YDdiXUi6q9O9TxdhxNIOVNuSm3NjG1NMWgaxv3Uy4

Its like the old IL/MI/OH rgp spats... this hobby is full of people that love to tear each other down for some reason.

#25052 2 years ago
Quoted from PismoArcade:

Looks like This Week In Pinball is another casualty of the whole Deeproot mess. Blackmail? Threats? Not cool.
https://www.thisweekinpinball.com/this-week-in-pinball-hiatus/?fbclid=IwAR1pEwaH2RBO-5ODw9YDdiXUi6q9O9TxdhxNIOVNuSm3NjG1NMWgaxv3Uy4

Ugh

#25053 2 years ago

Wow.

"In working on the timeline of the article about the fall of deeproot Pinball, I was going through undated notes (I think from the end of 2020) from a weird phone call I had with Robert. It was sometime after the failed launch in September 2020. I had only talked to Robert on the phone a few times, so I was hoping for a big (positive) update. My notes from the call were mostly about the fact that they were going to start taking pre-order money. One of the notes said that he mentioned “FCC official investigation?”. He shared some worst case scenario stuff, but was “confident” that the pinball venture would succeed. I had made some additional notes that Robert explained that the FCC would likely fine deeproot and there was a “small likelihood” of a (temporary) shut down. It is clear that FCC meant SEC and that I had not heard him correctly. He also shared some updates of the development of the machines. My biggest takeaway from the conversation was that they were starting to take pre-order money – non-refundable.

After the phone call, I called a friend and that person added a second person to the call. I don’t remember what all we talked about, but I told them about the call and that TWIP was cutting all ties with deeproot because of the pre-order money.

Over the last few weeks, I’ve been getting some anonymous cryptic messages that borderline on blackmail. This weekend as I was researching the article and contacting people about it, the threats ramped up. People threatening to destroy TWIP and that they had “information”. The only thing I can think of is that it is linked to that phone call.

Maybe I should have handled things differently and dug deeper, investigated, tried to get some facts on it and try to report on it. Maybe I shouldn’t have done any interviews with them or reported when they did other interviews. I’m definitely not perfect and have made a lot of mistakes with TWIP and learned from them. This whole deeproot scam has just made me sick. My policy for TWIP has always been to (as much as possible) cover everyone and everything, but maybe that is not the right approach.

All this has made this not fun anymore for me. Getting threatening messages is not helping.

With all that being said, due to many many factors (not just ones mentioned in this post), it is time for me to take a hiatus from TWIP for a while. It’s been an absolute pleasure and privilege over the last four years being involved so deeply in this hobby. A break wil allow me to recharge and regain some of the fun and passion and drive to create for This Week in Pinball."

54
#25054 2 years ago

Unfuckingbelievable.

People who have worked their entire life getting scammed out of their savings? Check.
Dedicated employees getting thrown out the door, some after relocating to Texas and Utah? Check.
Pinball enthusiasts and businesses losing their money and faith in people in the hobby? Check.
Good people like Jeff who has provided invaluable news on our hobby, not to mention being one of the creators of the Twipys, being bullied out of This Week In Pinball by anonymous threats? Check.

In my opinion, Robert Mueller has been worse for the hobby than Andrew Heighway, Kevin Kulek, Vonnie D and all of the other wannabe pinball entrepreneurs combined.

#25055 2 years ago

It sucks about TWIP, that is just the internet though. You really have to not let that shit not get to you but it's not easy. There is always going to be those miserable losers that spew negativity. They are so loud and it really makes you feel that you have done something wrong and people are disappointed with you. Hopefully he takes a step back and can reassess. The good people are just quieter and more peaceful, hopefully he will see that they are the reality and the vast majority.

#25056 2 years ago

Wow, imagine having to write the meta-story on yourself- This week in pinball, This Week In Pinball took a hiatus because RM has got some "evidence" on the evidence that someone said something to someone. Film at eleven.

Or

How to NOT to report on people who target little old lady's retirements and niche markets full of suckers who will drop big $$$ on a non-refundable deposit for the bragging rights that they have ordered something that will not ever be delivered that only 122 people could possibly want or possess and will attempt to strong arm, sue or litigate anyone who thinks differently in to oblivion while secretly misusing funds and perpetuating a massive fraud.

33
#25057 2 years ago

Mega props for Jeff for laying the information he knows out there like that.

#25058 2 years ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

Ironic? This was expected.

Wolfie! I'll be in Hilton Head tomorrow....

#25059 2 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

Wow.
"In working on the timeline of the article about the fall of deeproot Pinball, I was going through undated notes (I think from the end of 2020) from a weird phone call I had with Robert. It was sometime after the failed launch in September 2020. I had only talked to Robert on the phone a few times, so I was hoping for a big (positive) update. My notes from the call were mostly about the fact that they were going to start taking pre-order money. One of the notes said that he mentioned “FCC official investigation?”. He shared some worst case scenario stuff, but was “confident” that the pinball venture would succeed. I had made some additional notes that Robert explained that the FCC would likely fine deeproot and there was a “small likelihood” of a (temporary) shut down. It is clear that FCC meant SEC and that I had not heard him correctly. He also shared some updates of the development of the machines. My biggest takeaway from the conversation was that they were starting to take pre-order money – non-refundable.
After the phone call, I called a friend and that person added a second person to the call. I don’t remember what all we talked about, but I told them about the call and that TWIP was cutting all ties with deeproot because of the pre-order money.
Over the last few weeks, I’ve been getting some anonymous cryptic messages that borderline on blackmail. This weekend as I was researching the article and contacting people about it, the threats ramped up. People threatening to destroy TWIP and that they had “information”. The only thing I can think of is that it is linked to that phone call.
Maybe I should have handled things differently and dug deeper, investigated, tried to get some facts on it and try to report on it. Maybe I shouldn’t have done any interviews with them or reported when they did other interviews. I’m definitely not perfect and have made a lot of mistakes with TWIP and learned from them. This whole deeproot scam has just made me sick. My policy for TWIP has always been to (as much as possible) cover everyone and everything, but maybe that is not the right approach.
All this has made this not fun anymore for me. Getting threatening messages is not helping.
With all that being said, due to many many factors (not just ones mentioned in this post), it is time for me to take a hiatus from TWIP for a while. It’s been an absolute pleasure and privilege over the last four years being involved so deeply in this hobby. A break wil allow me to recharge and regain some of the fun and passion and drive to create for This Week in Pinball."

They scary thing is that RM actually believed the SEC stuff would just blow over - saying that with the knowledge of what he knows he did
the guy must be dumb as sht

#25060 2 years ago
Quoted from BMore-Pinball:

They scary thing is that RM actually believed the SEC stuff would just blow over - saying that with the knowledge of what he knows he did
the guy must be dumb as sht

Arrogant and Giant Ego. Figures he smarter than everybody including the Feds.

#25061 2 years ago
Quoted from BMore-Pinball:

They scary thing is that RM actually believed the SEC stuff would just blow over - saying that with the knowledge of what he knows he did
the guy must be dumb as sht

Sometimes a few of you guys sound like you have never heard of guilty people avoiding punishment.

-1
#25062 2 years ago

Fucking Deeproot shuts down Twip!
If your Reading this Robert M. , your a Dick!
And if your the anonymous Threatener....
Remember, like the God Father we will keep tabs on you and know what prison you go to.
(Of course I'm saying this in my Jimmy Kimmel jokester way, and it's the internet)

#25063 2 years ago

Scumbags gonna scumbag

#25064 2 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

How so? DR has at least those two prototypes. I thought Skit-B only has 1-2 predaturds? One of which was built up after the fact from parts?

I had heard of 3 working machines including the one that was being taken to shows. I don't know if that is the one on location at Galloping Ghost, I was under the impression that it wasn't. But we can always think of what may have been.

69e98bdf9d3a34b3bcd6128630fb45d0b9822627 (resized).png69e98bdf9d3a34b3bcd6128630fb45d0b9822627 (resized).png
#25065 2 years ago

man screw that. Jeff, I hope you take some time for yourself, you need it anyway. Once you're ready I hope you come back guns blazing and fight back. Stand up for yourself and don't let people bully you! Thank you for everything you've done for the hobby so far

#25066 2 years ago

Take a break, let the heat and insane lunatics cool off...I have a feeling Jeff will make it back just in time for the next TWIPPY season!

35
#25067 2 years ago

I just read the SEC bombshell. I was an original BHZA "customer" (sucker). When Robert/deeproot announced they'd provide refunds, I scanned all documentation including copies of checks cashed by Zidware and sent it that same day, along with the signed amendment. That was in June 2019 and I received the refund a bit later. I'm so glad I went that route. What a shitshow.

21
#25068 2 years ago

Looks like we'll have to settle for TWISL for the meantime

https://www.secactions.com/this-week-in-securities-litigation-week-of-august-30-2021/

Screen Shot 2021-08-30 at 10.15.58 AM (resized).pngScreen Shot 2021-08-30 at 10.15.58 AM (resized).pngScreen Shot 2021-08-30 at 10.16.12 AM (resized).pngScreen Shot 2021-08-30 at 10.16.12 AM (resized).png
#25069 2 years ago
Quoted from PismoArcade:

In my opinion, Robert Mueller has been worse for the hobby than Andrew Heighway, Kevin Kulek, Vonnie D and all of the other wannabe pinball entrepreneurs combined.

If they all had the proper management oversight to guide them, none of this ever would have happened...

#25070 2 years ago

The “Twislies” has a nice ring to it

#25071 2 years ago

It would appear google has a good bit of outdated information in its deeproot offices listing. Perhaps some helpful souls would want to freshen it up?

Screen Shot 2021-08-30 at 10.29.41 AM (resized).pngScreen Shot 2021-08-30 at 10.29.41 AM (resized).pngScreen Shot 2021-08-30 at 10.29.52 AM (resized).pngScreen Shot 2021-08-30 at 10.29.52 AM (resized).png
19
#25072 2 years ago

Google with the understatement of the decade, "usually not too busy."

#25073 2 years ago
Quoted from Scandell:

All I chose to say is: For being a lawyer...Robert sucks at drafting up employment agreements that protect his actual interests. And yes this is an answer to your question.

Well that made me laugh out loud inappropriately in the middle of a meeting

#25074 2 years ago
Quoted from PismoArcade:

Looks like This Week In Pinball is another casualty of the whole Deeproot mess. Blackmail? Threats? Not cool.
https://www.thisweekinpinball.com/this-week-in-pinball-hiatus/?fbclid=IwAR1pEwaH2RBO-5ODw9YDdiXUi6q9O9TxdhxNIOVNuSm3NjG1NMWgaxv3Uy4

Relevant section:

In working on the timeline of the article about the fall of deeproot Pinball, I was going through undated notes (I think from the end of 2020) from a weird phone call I had with Robert. It was sometime after the failed launch in September 2020. I had only talked to Robert on the phone a few times, so I was hoping for a big (positive) update. My notes from the call were mostly about the fact that they were going to start taking pre-order money. One of the notes said that he mentioned “FCC official investigation?”. He shared some worst case scenario stuff, but was “confident” that the pinball venture would succeed. I had made some additional notes that Robert explained that the FCC would likely fine deeproot and there was a “small likelihood” of a (temporary) shut down. It is clear that FCC meant SEC and that I had not heard him correctly. He also shared some updates of the development of the machines. My biggest takeaway from the conversation was that they were starting to take pre-order money – non-refundable.

After the phone call, I called a friend and that person added a second person to the call. I don’t remember what all we talked about, but I told them about the call and that TWIP was cutting all ties with deeproot because of the pre-order money.

Over the last few weeks, I’ve been getting some anonymous cryptic messages that borderline on blackmail. This weekend as I was researching the article and contacting people about it, the threats ramped up. People threatening to destroy TWIP and that they had “information”. The only thing I can think of is that it is linked to that phone call.

#25075 2 years ago
Quoted from Haymaker:

man screw that. Jeff, I hope you take some time for yourself, you need it anyway. Once you're ready I hope you come back guns blazing and fight back. Stand up for yourself and don't let people bully you! Thank you for everything you've done for the hobby so far

I wouldn't be surprised if we see strong-arming and BS retaliatory lawsuits for years. Jailbird lawyers have nothing but time on their hands.

11
#25076 2 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

I'm more of the camp he thought he was gonna built this huge asset, with this grey-area money, be able to pay his investors back easily, and put himself on the cover of some big shot articles for building some startup and cashing out big. Everything about it is ego... all the way through the stone cold denial that he had no business what-so-ever leading a design and manufacturing company.
There is no way this is a situation where someone 'slips off into the night with all the money'. This is delusion without any checks and balances.

This is probably closer to the truth than any of us know. I have investigated many many crimes over the years, and granted, I never got into anything close to 50+ million, but the one thing they all had in common was the way they justified their actions in their own minds.

From the outside looking in, almost every case looked like a dumpster fire in the making, and I always wondered how anyone could think they could get away unnoticed. Very few cases are ever the type you see on TV where the criminal mastermind plans out their actions and actually knows they are doing wrong and and covers their tracks well. Most are like this one where ego takes over and they get caught up in the shuffle to the point where the scam is just part of their normal day, and they think nothing of it. I doubt RM was laying awake at night trying to figure out how he was going to pay the money back....he simply bought into his own hype and figured he was smarter than everyone else and everything would work out in the end. He would be making money hand over fist, and there would be plenty to pay everyone back....he didn't stare at the figures every day, and I am sure he disagrees with the amount of the spend and really had no idea. The ego is still at play with the hiring of the law team...he still has no idea the money wasn't his to spend. It will be an interesting watch.

#25077 2 years ago

It's a major bummer for Jeff and for pinball fans in general. I hope whoever is doing this gets exposed. Also disappointed we won't get the TWIP deep dive into deeproot.

27
#25078 2 years ago

Now ya'll know why people stayed quiet so long.

#25079 2 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

Now ya'll know why people stayed quiet so long.

plot twist... it's kaneda holding the competition back...

#25080 2 years ago
Quoted from PismoArcade:

Looks like This Week In Pinball is another casualty of the whole Deeproot mess. Blackmail? Threats? Not cool.
https://www.thisweekinpinball.com/this-week-in-pinball-hiatus/?fbclid=IwAR1pEwaH2RBO-5ODw9YDdiXUi6q9O9TxdhxNIOVNuSm3NjG1NMWgaxv3Uy4

Really hate to see this. Nothing said in those calls matters.....Jeff did nothing wrong, and blackmail / extortion is still illegal.

#25081 2 years ago

Not that it sounds like it would be worth it to Jeff to evaluate if there's a bluff to be called and move forward if so, but I wonder if what the blackmailer sent actually represented some inside knowledge and / or potentially damaging info, or if it was just an ominous, baseless threat.

If it's the latter, I can think of someone who might do such a thing (but won't speculate publicly because that would be unfair and it could obviously be any number of people, including persons completely unknown to the pinball community).

#25082 2 years ago
Quoted from aingide:

I wouldn't be surprised if we see strong-arming and BS retaliatory lawsuits for years. Jailbird lawyers have nothing but time on their hands.

The BOP (Bureau of prisons) will reward him like others who do this crap with a little diesel therapy. I saw them transfer a guy to a prison an hour away. He got there in 8 months. He told me they sent him from Arizona to the east coast and back. I assumed he stopped his behavior as I saw him while I was being transferred. You can't beat the feds. They read every bit of mail. He will piss someone off, that person should have their attorney call and write a letter to document this to the region that he is being held in prison. For an hour or 2 of an attorneys time, everything changes. That will mostly end that. I would have my brother attorney contact the SEC attorneys and detail the harrassment if it were me. Any decent attorney can achieve this.

#25083 2 years ago

No more TWIPYs?

-1
#25084 2 years ago
Quoted from frankmac:

No more TWIPYs?

Shit just got real : )

10
#25085 2 years ago
Quoted from frankmac:

No more TWIPYs?

some give kaneda the suicide prevention number!

#25087 2 years ago
Quoted from Darscot:

So let me get this straight he blew 50-60 million dollars trying to make a pin that he had 50 or so preorders for? This can't be real, LOL

"Deeproot Pinball" was never a manufacturing company because they never manufactured products to be sold on the open market. It was a prototype company. All that money was blown at the prototype design phase.

#25088 2 years ago
Quoted from meSz:

some give kaneda the suicide prevention number!

He would have his own TWIPY made..

#25089 2 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

The $6m offering for pinball was the same time he was trying to buy Spooky and PBL. And it raised zero. So even if we had said yes there wouldn't have been any money.
That will also hurt him - it's proof investors wouldn't put money into that venture when given knowledge and a choice. In order to spend money in that way he had to lie.

It it telling. It will also be interesting to find out if he used any of his own capital to fund both Deeproot Pinball and Deeproot Studios, or if it was 100% funded from misappropriated funds.

If Robert never invested capital of his own, or only comparatively small amounts, then I can't see how anyone can continue the narrative that "Robert didn't intend to scam people from day one, he just lost his way"

#25090 2 years ago

Sounds to me like RM read "The Secret" or watched the DVD. Dunning-Kruger took it from there.

Surely, in his mind he has done nothing wrong, and so he hired two renowned(?) lawyers to throw money at. I figure defense lawyers don't get in trouble like lawyers who file frivolous lawsuits do, even when they know all their client has is a frivolous defense.

#25091 2 years ago
Quoted from Stuieb84:

"Deeproot Pinball" was never a manufacturing company because they never manufactured products to be sold on the open market. It was a prototype company. All that money was blown at the prototype design phase.

My only point was the laughability of the mathematics. You don't spend more on a prototype than even your most optimistic prediction of revenue.

#25092 2 years ago
Quoted from Yoko2una:

One of the best damn clips to come out that country, which has provided countless amazing clips! We screamed "NO" back when we watched the show. He was so good. Little did we know what was coming with his son. Damn these electric sex pants.

I've worked with a few scummy hedge fund types, and that narcissistic sociopathic over-sexed macho sort is well observed in IT Crowd

Relevant to Deeproot, whose very company name is a penetrative sexual innuendo? Who could possibly know...

#25093 2 years ago
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:

it seems Robert has actually hired not one but two very expensive lawyers to represent him. Their bios:
https://dslawpc.com/attorney/jay-hulings/
https://dslawpc.com/attorney/jason-davis/
[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

It appears that RM's second attorney, like his first, has substantial relevant experience and excellent academic credentials.

However, neither seem to have acquired board certification status in any of the 21 or so specialized fields available to Texas lawyers meeting the requisites.

Civil Trial Law and Criminal Law are the two overarching specialties which probably most apply to the SEC charges here.

Some defense lawyers have the magical pixie dust to settle a tough case and secure a favorable outcome. But, when your case fails to resolve and you're relying on a jury of strangers to decide your fate, you probably want the best trial attorney, with a boatload of experience actually trying cases to a jury.

If nothing else, the board certification is a prestigious credential (at least in NJ and I suspect in TX as well) which demonstrates a high degree of achievement, proficiency and experience in jury trials.

https://www.tbls.org/findlawyer

#25094 2 years ago

Better call Sal!

11
#25095 2 years ago

In a way Robert scammed himself.

His original sales goals for MG/RAZA/AIW were insane, something like 8k total units. Insanity, but I guess he believed his own BS?

So he takes money out of the till. "I can double this money and put back what I took before the boss notices it's gone!"

But now it's taking longer than he thought to develop a pin.

So he doubles down. Sunk cost fallacy. Spends more to shore up the original "investment" Gets even deeper in the hole and... Here we are.

#25096 2 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

In a way Robert scammed himself.
His original sales goals for MG/RAZA/AIW were insane, something like 8k total units. Insanity, but I guess he believed his own BS?
So he takes money out of the till. "I can double this money and put back what I took before the boss notices it's gone!"
But now it's taking longer than he thought to develop a pin.
So he doubles down. Sunk cost fallacy. Spends more to shore up the original "investment" Gets even deeper in the hole and... Here we are.

maybe if more people had died in the last few years...the fund would have been more lucrative.

-1
#25097 2 years ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

Relevant section:

THAT is bullshit. Whoever did that is demonstrably wrong, and coward at that. TWIP isn't investigative journalism. You don't do that shit to someone else trying to help the hobby. Whoever did that, come at me next. Coward. Coward.

#25098 2 years ago
Quoted from Scandell:

maybe if more people had died in the last few years...the fund would have been more lucrative.

Hey with COVID that's a hell of a market!

Too bad he didn't actually buy any policies with the money! (sad trombone sound)

#25099 2 years ago
Quoted from Stuieb84:

If Robert never invested capital of his own, or only comparatively small amounts, then I can't see how anyone can continue the narrative that "Robert didn't intend to scam people from day one, he just lost his way"

You've never heard of people starting busiensses with loans and investors instead of their own assets?

-1
#25100 2 years ago
Quoted from Manimal:

Really hate to see this. Nothing said in those calls matters.....Jeff did nothing wrong, and blackmail / extortion is still illegal.

The inference here is they are blaming TWIP for 'knowing' and sitting on it. I guess...

It does feel completely bat-shit crazy that RM tells someone outside the business this... someone who is a reporter/news site... but it doesn't come out? Obviously we weren't there, but you gotta think that was news worthy??

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