(Topic ID: 203700)
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Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland
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Plainfield, IL
Quoted from SmallyBells:Is Ben crowing a bit too loud or taking too long a victory lap? Yeah, maybe. But those who warned us about RM deserve their moment.
Instead of criticizing Ben, maybe these people who worked for Deeproot, people like Dennis, who by working there gave an air of legitimacy to the con, should instead of crying woe about their years of payed work, take responsibility for being duped and helping dupe the community into buying these pins.
Talking about the machines designed that will never be made just serves to deflect responsibility and lead to these posts like, “Bu..buuut maybe someone can make those games?” People lost their retirements to RM and that’s the true tragedy in all of this. Hell, the RAZA buyers are more victims than people who can’t buy Dennis’ two shelved designs.
Do you think Dennis knew about the con when he worked there?
All of the other employees are garbage too just because Jpop was in the building?
That’s just f ing Idiotic
Benny knew about the con back in 2014
Quoted from SmallyBells:Is Ben crowing a bit too loud or taking too long a victory lap? Yeah, maybe. But those who warned us about RM deserve their moment.
Instead of criticizing Ben, maybe these people who worked for Deeproot, people like Dennis, who by working there gave an air of legitimacy to the con, should instead of crying woe about their years of payed work, take responsibility for being duped and helping dupe the community into buying these pins.
Talking about the machines designed that will never be made just serves to deflect responsibility and lead to these posts like, “Bu..buuut maybe someone can make those games?” People lost their retirements to RM and that’s the true tragedy in all of this. Hell, the RAZA buyers are more victims than people who can’t buy Dennis’ two shelved designs.
I feel like Dennis Nordman said just enough when he left to make it clear it was a shit show over there without opening himself up to legal threats from Robert.
Saying he couldn’t get engineers to work on his game said A LOT
Quoted from cpr9999:0…….and a picture for old time sake!
The teacher directing….
[quoted image]
Ahhh the memories.
Benny and buddy Jpop. Nice pair
Ben has spoke to what he knew, and fear of getting sued by the most litigious man in pinball. But he never collected any checks that said Deeproot LLC on them now did he? Ben was never part of the company that defrauded people, was he?
But no I dont think Dennis knew. But he quit, with the only explanation being ‘because my games wouldn’t get built’. We know there’s more to it than that. He chose to stay quiet about everything, and that to a extent is being complicit. Ben didn’t work there or stay quiet.
Dennis has more explaining to do than Ben Heck. Full Stop.
Quoted from iceman44:Do you think Dennis knew about the con when he worked there?
Benny knew about the con back in 2014
Quoted from iceman44:Ahhh the memories.
Benny and buddy Jpop. Nice pair
True, remember when you were excited BHZA 9 years back?
Quoted from iceman44:That's what it boils down to for me primarily........when you work for yourself and it's ALL YOU and your reputation and A** is on the line front and center, I would expect an amazing product out of JJP and Jpop....
I predict around christmas time there will be a lot of folks wishing they had jumped in!! But then I have faith and am somewhat of an optimist
Quoted from iceman44:You can’t pin the failure of Deeproot on Jpop. Although his stink does fit well with Robert.
Bobby F Ed this thing up in EPIC fashion and I don’t care what lawyer he hires, the facts are NOT on his side and he’s in BIG trouble, the SEC, State Bar of Texas, and other civil and criminal litigation coming his way, as Jpop slithers off back to Chicago or wherever he’s going.
Yeah I thought the same thing. While the world is busy nuking Robert, John has escaped scott-free out the back
43C55312-D871-4C7B-A376-0D7BB44842D4.gifQuoted from SmallyBells:Ben has spoke to what he knew, and fear of getting sued by the most litigious man in pinball. But he never collected any checks that said Deeproot LLC on them now did he? Ben was never part of the company that defrauded people, was he?
But no I dont think Dennis knew. But he quit, with the only explanation being ‘because my games wouldn’t get built’. We know there’s more to it than that. He chose to stay quiet about everything, and that to a extent is being complicit. Ben didn’t work there or stay quiet.
Dennis has more explaining to do than Ben Heck. Full Stop.
Bobby wasn’t around back in 2014? What was he afraid of then? When did he become scared of Bobb?
Dennis doesn’t have SHIT to explain to the “smelly mob” crowd.
Mueller has to answer for his horseshit conduct and he will. Big time. It’s all 100% on that F er and NO ONE ELSE
Halifax, NS
If they had a production plan in place I believe things would of had a chance to move ahead. Even JPOP knew that you contract out a bunch of stuff, & the parts to get games done. JPOP even has this documented, he just never gets the job done without guidance. So Robert is the #1 person who screwed up his company, & mismanaged everything.
I see since I retired from my City job that management has come down hard on anyone that has anything negative towards the employer. Lots of threats to keep people quiet. We were mostly union employees, but they have lots of contractors doing the same work.
Quoted from greatwichjohn:JPOP could be managed in the future. You would have to set short term goals & make sure he stays focused. After all the failures he has had since the glory days finishing with the closing of WMS.
Are you serious? 
The pinball community has wasted enough time and massive amounts of money on this guy. No other designer has been such an unimaginable massive drain on industry resources than him. He is the undeniable master of vaporware.
If you like the artwork on his games, keep in mind it is not his artwork! Other very talented artists did the artwork.
There are far better and much more talented folks who are far more worthy of time and attention. Just look at what some of the homebrew designers are doing--a lot of that is really cool, interesting, and innovative. Give any one of those guys a taste of the millions JPop has burned through, and you'll probably end up with an actual manufacturable game.
Quoted from greatwichjohn:All new starts & even the big players can go under. Pinball Manufacturing is HARD, so is getting good financial backing.
JPop is a massive boat anchor that will drag everyone down with him. He has had more chances and failed more times than anyone else in the industry. Why are you so fascinated with this guy?
Quoted from ForceFlow:[quoted image]
Are you serious?
//<![CDATA[
window.__mirage2 = {petok:"652b8fee68ad16efa4e725669e7eb4e7161c9020-1630032793-1800"};
//]]>The pinball community has wasted enough time and massive amounts of money on this guy. No other designer has been such an unimaginable massive drain on industry resources than him. He is the undeniable master of vaporware.
If you like the artwork on his games, keep in mind it is not his artwork! Other very talented artists did the artwork.
There are far better and much more talented folks who are far more worthy of time and attention. Just look at what some of the homebrew designers are doing--some of that is really cool, interesting, and innovative. Give any one of those guys a taste of the millions JPop has burned through, and you'll probably end up with an actual manufacturable game.JPop is a massive boat anchor that will drag everyone down with him. He has had more chances and failed more times than anyone else in the industry. Why are you so fascinated with this guy?
As per usual. Totally missing the story.
Jpop is Mr irrelevant and has been so for a LONG time. He’s gone, done, over with. Are you happy now?
Nobody cares about this guy. He’s a dead carcass
Mueller is the IDIOT that will have to pay for F ing this thing up beyond belief
Quoted from iceman44:As per usual. Totally missing the story.
No, you're not paying attention to the comments I was responding to about letting JPop design again.
Quoted from iceman44:Nobody cares about this guy.
That's the point I was trying to make.
Quoted from iceman44:Mueller is the IDIOT that will have to pay for F ing this thing up beyond belief
I never argued against that.
greatwichjohn you are entitled to your opinions about John. But PLEASE. Don't become his latest mark. I think that's what we're all trying to express here.#pintervention
Quoted from ForceFlow:No, you're not paying attention to the comments I was responding to about letting JPop design again.
That's the point I was trying to make.
I never argued against that.
So who is going to let him design again?
Nobody cares about Jpop except Ben and a handful of people that want to make sure he’s buried and gone. HE IS F ING TOAST
Most people just don’t give a flying F about Jpop!!!!
Dennis Nordman? I can’t wait to see what he produces next with AP
Wherever the rest of the Deeproot crew lands, same thing.
For the last 7 yrs after that infamous expo I don’t give a shit about Jpop.
What I care about is Mueller getting justice and being a part of that.
You guys can hang on to your Jpop fetish but the rest us were done long ago. Except the Mitchell boys who are still trying to get blood out of a stone 7 yrs later. Might only be him left?
As for Raza, I don’t even think he finished it or care enough to know.
Quoted from iceman44:So who is going to let him design again?
Nobody cares about Jpop except Ben and a handful of people that want to make sure he’s buried and gone. HE IS F ING TOAST
Most people just don’t give a flying F about Jpop!!!!
Dennis Nordman? I can’t wait to see what he produces next with AP
Wherever the rest of the Deeproot crew lands, same thing.
For the last 7 yrs after that infamous expo I don’t give a shit about Jpop.
What I care about is Mueller getting justice and being a part of that.
You guys can hang on to your Jpop fetish but the rest us were done long ago
As for Raza, I don’t even think he finished it or care enough to know.
Is Ice just the most elaborate troll on the site? I honestly can’t tell anymore if he’s serious about anything.
Quoted from greatwichjohn:If they had a production plan in place I believe things would of
Success requires learning from mistakes. 
Quoted from benheck:Well we can judge as they go.
But with deeproot red flag #1 should have been Jpop. Even if he wasn't as involved as some thought it still shows an ASTONISHING lack of good judgment skills from Bobby Boy.
He started a race 100 feet behind the starting line.
Knowing jpop's limitations, he should've been paid a flat fee by a non shyster to produce an art directed "maquette" as he calls it and then say thank you very much... then give it to someone else to make a game of. Like in The Bally Williams days. The problem is taking his lines, curves and art direction for something that's supposed to be complete with floating balls, magic mirrors, and other bullshit. To the extent he would be amenable to being hired to do the only thing hes good at within this space, that's all he should have been allowed to do. Clearly an (idiot) savant is unmanageable. Now here comes the flame slings and arrows.
Quoted from Yoreland:Knowing jpop's limitations, he should've been paid a flat fee by a non shyster to produce an art directed "maquette" as he calls it and then say thank you very much... then give it to someone else to make a game of. Like in The Bally Williams days. The problem is taking his lines, curves and art direction for something that's supposed to be complete with floating balls, magic mirrors, and other bullshit. To the extent he would be amenable to being hired to do the only thing hes good at within this space, that's all that's all he should have been allowed to do. Clearly a savant is unmanageable. Now here comes the flame slings and arrows.
Somewhat to that point, make a real game (like AIW) and then give it to John for his "magic art pass". He makes awesome looking fake games, no one is denying that.
He gets no changes, no suggestions NO NOTHING. Just slap "John Goo" on it, collect a check and go away. You could still sell it as a "Jpop art whatever"
AP could have used him in that way but he burned that bridge with the Houdini scam. Robert could have used him in that way but he bought into the BS 100% and obviously had no fucking clue how to manage/delegate or do ANYTHING but threaten people and steal money.
Now? John's a toxic superfund site dumpster fire. Are we crazy for wanting to see it covered with cement?
Quoted from benheck:Somewhat to that point, make a real game (like AIW) and then give it to John for his "magic art pass". He makes awesome looking fake games, no one is denying that.
He gets no changes, no suggestions NO NOTHING. Just slap "John Goo" on it, collect a check and go away. You could still sell it as a "Jpop art whatever"
AP could have used him in that way but he burned that bridge with the Houdini scam. Robert could have used him in that way but he bought into the BS 100% and obviously had no fucking clue how to manage/delegate or do ANYTHING but threaten people and steal money.
Now? John's a toxic superfund site dumpster fire. Are we crazy for wanting to see it covered with cement?
Lol 100%!
Quoted from greatwichjohn:If they had a production plan in place I believe things would of had a chance to move ahead
Again, let's not forget that Robert STOLE 58 MILLION DOLLARS!
There is no way a functioning pinball company could come out of a 58 MILLION DOLLAR THEFT!
That's not just a planning issue.
Quoted from benheck:greatwichjohn you are entitled to your opinions about John. But PLEASE. Don't become his latest mark. I think that's what we're all trying to express here.#pintervention
For the love of ……..
Nobody is going to give your OLD buddy John a f ing dime.
He’s done, finished, adios, history and in the grave. You can light it on fire if you want to.
The Deeproot F Ed up saga is NOT about him. He didn’t blow $30 million that POS Mueller did!!! And he’s GONE
I
Quoted from benheck:Somewhat to that point, make a real game (like AIW) and then give it to John for his "magic art pass". He makes awesome looking fake games, no one is denying that.
He gets no changes, no suggestions NO NOTHING. Just slap "John Goo" on it, collect a check and go away. You could still sell it as a "Jpop art whatever"
AP could have used him in that way but he burned that bridge with the Houdini scam. Robert could have used him in that way but he bought into the BS 100% and obviously had no fucking clue how to manage/delegate or do ANYTHING but threaten people and steal money.
Now? John's a toxic superfund site dumpster fire. Are we crazy for wanting to see it covered with cement?
It’s already over buddy. You are just too clueless to see it and have made some pretty ridiculous claims about guys like Nordman.
Whatever Jpop did to you, I’ll sign up for the “I wouldn’t piss on him if he was on fire list” too.
What kind of threat is this dope now? Worry about yourself
Go ahead, keep digging.
Quoted from TreyBo69:Is Ice just the most elaborate troll on the site? I honestly can’t tell anymore if he’s serious about anything.
Nah, he is the drunk uncle of the site.
Rude and harmless. And drunk.
Quoted from EricHadley:Mods should close this thread
Why? It’s a fluid story with many twists & turns to come. The thread doesn’t close until there’s accountability….and even then, there will probably be more to discuss.
Quoted from DerGoetz:Nah, he is the drunk uncle of the site.
Rude and harmless. And drunk.
It’s interesting that he goes away for a while and then comes roaring back with his new angle he can use to go after others. If you want to talk about someone with no repercussions for any of their past actions on this site, he’s definitely top 5 if not right at the top of the list. Always right (don’t quote any of his past posts though), always loud, always itching for a fight, and for some gawdawful reason always given a free pass by Pinsiders after having his self imposed time out. Some people find it entertaining. I sure don’t.
Quoted from benheck:Hey Ice. I won't be bullied.
You're never getting your rare shiny. Deal with it.
I know. Thank you for that! Hope you have a great night and sleep well. 
Jpop is done, what next?
Quoted from benheck:Somewhat to that point, make a real game (like AIW) and then give it to John for his "magic art pass". He makes awesome looking fake games, no one is denying that.
He gets no changes, no suggestions NO NOTHING. Just slap "John Goo" on it, collect a check and go away. You could still sell it as a "Jpop art whatever"
AP could have used him in that way but he burned that bridge with the Houdini scam. Robert could have used him in that way but he bought into the BS 100% and obviously had no fucking clue how to manage/delegate or do ANYTHING but threaten people and steal money.
Now? John's a toxic superfund site dumpster fire. Are we crazy for wanting to see it covered with cement?
JPOP could have been a star in that scenario. It’s like all these billionaires who take credit for the hundreds of engineers work (Tesla, Space X, Virgin Galactic, Blue Origin anyone ?) that make it actually happen. But yes, his name 10 years ago with some ghost written art would have been a winning combo for sure. Maybe they could even show him layering on the last coat or purple paint at the unveiling promo video. He could meander on about his great revolutionary concept in some side shot interview.
Ah but that would have required that he have some actual self awareness that he can’t design and can’t build jack. That’s a real tough combo to come up with there. Narcissism and self awareness don’t mix too well.
Quoted from iceman44:I know. Thank you for that! Hope you have a great night and sleep well.
Jpop is done, what next?
You do realize bashing John is just a hobby for me? We've all been in need of more hobbies these last few... many months.
I hope the money saved by him being gone will go to all the deserving companies actually making games.
That's all I ever wanted.
Yawning….
Nothing new in this thread today…
Jpop- gone
Mueller gone and being prosecuted
RAZA- dead
What’s new in this thread for the love of God?!
Quoted from cpr9999:Yawning….
Nothing new in this thread today…
Jpop- gone
Mueller gone and being prosecuted
RAZA- dead
What’s new in this thread for the love of God?!
Night night….. . For the love of……
Quoted from cpr9999:Yawning….
Nothing new in this thread today…
Jpop- gone
Mueller gone and being prosecuted
RAZA- dead
What’s new in this thread for the love of God?!
Same old shit day after day.
Everything is game over but we like to discuss that 40 million times 
Quoted from benheck:Should tell my buddy in Texas there's a reflow machine the SEC will be auctioning off soon
It’s broken though because they didn’t know how to operate it.
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]
The comments from the owners on that private Zidware forum really reminded me of what a massive asshole JPop is.
I mean I didn’t forget that he screwed people out of money, but reading comments from the people who were directly impacted by it really pisses me off all over again.
What a piece of shit.
Quoted from TreyBo69:Is Ice just the most elaborate troll on the site? I honestly can’t tell anymore if he’s serious about anything.
Quoted from pookycade:It’s interesting that he goes away for a while and then comes roaring back with his new angle he can use to go after others. If you want to talk about someone with no repercussions for any of their past actions on this site, he’s definitely top 5 if not right at the top of the list. Always right (don’t quote any of his past posts though), always loud, always itching for a fight, and for some gawdawful reason always given a free pass by Pinsiders after having his self imposed time out. Some people find it entertaining. I sure don’t.
I actually believed after his latest screw up and his self imposed vacation of shame, that Iceman would return to Pinside with some humility. Believe it or not, I had empathy for him the past couple of days and I had determined that I would take the high road with him if that were the case.
He's a lost cause and I'm convinced he needs help.
Quoted from RobT:The comments from the owners on that private Zidware forum really reminded me of what a massive asshole JPop is.
I mean I didn’t forget that he screwed people out of money, but reading comments from the people who were directly impacted by it really pisses me off all over again.
What a piece of shit.
In an odd way thank god it was primarily JPOP as the focus of this mess with Robert. Let’s say you knew a priori that there would be a $58M Ponzi like scheme paired with pinball. If you could pick any designer past or present to combine that disaster with who would think would be the most fitting to go in that slot ? It was ironically the perfect combination. It made the best dumpster fire. The cherry on top of the sh t sundae if you will. If you were writing a piece of fiction about DR you would call it brilliance for dreaming up a Zidware angle to go with it. JPOP solidified his Wikipedia page as the worst designer ever to go with the biggest failure in pinball ever.
Quoted from pookycade:In an odd way thank god it was primarily JPOP as the focus of this mess with Robert. Let’s say you knew a priori that there would be a $58M Ponzi like scheme paired with pinball. If you could pick any designer past or present to combine that disaster with who would think would be the most fitting to go in that slot ? It was ironically the perfect combination. It made the best dumpster fire. The cherry on top of the sh t sundae if you will. If you were writing a piece of fiction about DR you would call it brilliance for dreaming up a Zidware angle to go with it. JPOP solidified his Wikipedia page as the worst designer ever to go with the biggest failure in pinball ever.
This story (like all) is writing itself. "Damn, this sounds like dialogue from our script" said Laura Dern.
Ice thinks I (and others) are obsessed with John.
I really am not. For me it's like I'm camping. And it's time to move on but there was a campfire. I just wanna make sure every last ember is dead and gone before moving on...
...so another forest doesn't get burned down.
Quoted from benheck:Ice thinks I (and others) are obsessed with John.
I really am not. For me it's like I'm camping. And it's time to move on but there was a campfire. I just wanna make sure every last ember is dead and gone before moving on...
...so another forest doesn't get burned down.
...and because its enjoyable to take the piss out of those who were too enamored with jpop and the newest and greatest to piss on the embers beneath their feet.
Quoted from Mr68:He's a lost cause and I'm convinced he needs help.
I'm not so sure. This personality type seems to be the 'in' thing these days.
Quoted from benheck:Ice thinks I (and others) are obsessed with John.
I really am not. For me it's like I'm camping. And it's time to move on but there was a campfire. I just wanna make sure every last ember is dead and gone before moving on...
...so another forest doesn't get burned down.
Definition of “obsessed”
AC73333D-1164-488F-8AEB-BB3554096806 (resized).jpeg
Copenhagen
Quoted from CrazyLevi:I personally think it was unwise and I don't understand why so many people dove in head first, and I was pretty surprised at the complete lack of skepticism that seems to surround that project after what we've seen over the years.
What is the value of being first with a game if you operate a pinball venue?
What is the value of being first with a game if you are making internet-television or other SoMe activity on pinball? If not directly finansially, then brag-sially.
Besides. There seems to be plenty of dudes in this hobby not nearly so finansially vulnerable they mind pulling the trigger and see what happens.
Quoted from pookycade:Let’s say you knew a priori that there would be a $58M Ponzi like scheme paired with pinball. If you could pick any designer past or present to combine that disaster with who would think would be the most fitting to go in that slot ? It was ironically the perfect combination. It made the best dumpster fire. The cherry on top of the sh t sundae if you will. If you were writing a piece of fiction about DR you would call it brilliance for dreaming up a Zidware angle to go with it. JPOP solidified his Wikipedia page as the worst designer ever to go with the biggest failure in pinball ever.
Thumbs up for use of a priori.
Quoted from SmallyBells:Instead of criticizing Ben, maybe these people who worked for Deeproot, people like Dennis, who by working there gave an air of legitimacy to the con, should instead of crying woe about their years of payed work, take responsibility for being duped and helping dupe the community into buying these pins.
I do not like this. Please give the DP staff a break. If Robert was able to smear a great bunch of people out of a lot of money, surely he could maintain some level of trust with the staff. Somebody is paying you a fine salery to create something you want to do and even have a passion for. He is paying to have them create a game. And despite bumps and delays promise that things are rolling ahead.
Why should they stop. Or speak out publicly, breaching the loyalty to their employer.
Merthyr Tydfil
I'm getting confused. In 2014, Dennis was doing the preliminaries, concept drafts and mech ideas for Alien until he figured Andrew's sense of timescale was unworkable. After that, he must have had some degree of involvement in Stern's licensed overseeing of the game he had Greg Freres had made pretty much by hand. Dennis was one of the first to be recruited by DP? Because unless I'm missing something, the DP timeline as being stated by multiple thread sources seems all over the place. Depending on who you ask, John himself could have been in three places at once.
As for John: managing someone involves getting them from point A to point B as efficiently as possible. How, then, does one manage a guy whose design trademark and philosophy haven been a increasingly visible allergy to straight lines since around 1995?
Quoted from pookycade:I put a deposit down on Alien part 2 when it was a no more than a kiosk flyer. I regret that and won’t do so again (even if I know Cointaker who holds the funds is on the up and up). […] Well … strictly speaking it now is my problem since 8 months post deposit still no Alien. This isn’t how businesses should operate and I won’t support it any more even if it forces me to mostly buy Sterns. At least I know when money is paid to Stern product will ship and not like in 12-18 months (or in case of DR never)
Your comparison doesn’t work. Pinball Brothers never took any pre-order money from customers. Melissa is doing the pre-order thing on herself. And instead of being angry you could just request your money back.
Regarding the comparison to Stern: they are not a new company that still needs to find out how to produce faster I guess?
Why did you need to put a deposit down at all? Why didn’t you wait for games to be available? Just asking, no offense intended.
Unknown
Quoted from greatwichjohn:Lots of talented people that hopefully we will see what they were working on.
This part of your post I agree with. (The rest though.... 
...after all that's happened and that you've read of others, working with JPOP....really? Why?)
It would be really nice if the designs of Dennis and Barry would be saved by another company, or that we could at least see what they had developped. I don't think though it'll bring in enough money for Deeproot or its investors to be satisfied enough to sell it for? Maybe if they're auctioned and could be bought for a small amount, another company could be interested, but otherwise I don't really see that happening. And I don't think Dennis or Barry are allowed to share their designs, not even when all is finished? We can hope some pictures of the designs will come up someday by some means .
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