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(Topic ID: 203700)

deeproot Pinball thread

By pin2d

6 years ago


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#2351 5 years ago
 
ROB

Borygard

LockWhenLit.com

US St Louis, MO

11y 90,050 2,915

Quoted from TigerLaw:

...
I am somewhat taken aback that you did not know of this litigation, though it was not heavily discussed on this website it was well known in the community and being monitored by many.

I knew of the lawsuit against JPop, and the outcome, but was unaware that he was sueing his customers.

Frankly, I was so tired of the ups and downs of the entire ordeal and the others I got screwed on, I mostly avoided everything after I got my MG.

--
Rob Anthony
Pinball Classics
http://LockWhenLit.com
Quality Board Work - In Home Service
borygard at gmail dot com

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#2352 5 years ago
 
JON

J85M

Hot Mods

GB Warrington

12y 147K 10,466 32

Quoted from deeproot:

BTW, It is common knowledge by anyone who has inquired that BTTF is not available to be licensed.

Around August 2018 I was lead to believe it was certainly open and available for licencing, but at the time no pinball related pitches had been made other than the VPcabs & Zen pinball projects..... so did you pick it up after August/late 2018?

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#2353 5 years ago
 
C F

frolic

Pinside+ Frequent

11y 149K 9,809

Quoted from J85M:

Around August 2018 I was lead to believe it was certainly open and available for licencing, but at the time no pinball related pitches had been made other than the VPcabs & Zen pinball projects..... so did you pick it up after August/late 2018?

Good data. TWIP was there October 2018:

"They had recently had a party in the break room, celebrating landing a major license. (TEASER: The license is an 80s movie many people have been craving!)"

https://www.thisweekinpinball.com/deeproot-tour/

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#2354 5 years ago
 
WUF

wolfemaaan

Inactive member

5y 69,650 1,495

Quoted from J85M:

Around August 2018 I was lead to believe it was certainly open and available for licencing, but at the time no pinball related pitches had been made other than the VPcabs & Zen pinball projects..... so did you pick it up after August/late 2018?

Maybe I should ask George McFly, he’s my neighbor.

So, Deeproot - when you chime back any, can you give us any date of the next announcement? Just curious if anything is coming out in 2019

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#2355 5 years ago
 
JON

J85M

Hot Mods

GB Warrington

12y 147K 10,466 32

Quoted from frolic:

Good data. TWIP was there October 2018:
"They had recently had a party in the break room, celebrating landing a major license. (TEASER: The license is an 80s movie many people have been craving!)"
https://www.thisweekinpinball.com/deeproot-tour/

Thanks for the reminder frolic totally forgot about that! Timings certainly add up if indeed BTTF is no longer available, I’d love to see BTTF done right and with modern tech so I’m a buyer for sure!

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#2356 5 years ago
 
JON

J85M

Hot Mods

GB Warrington

12y 147K 10,466 32

Quoted from wolfemaaan:

Maybe I should ask George McFly, he’s my neighbor.

What the hell are you posting here fore then? Wasting time man, go knock on his door and ask!

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#2357 5 years ago
 
WUF

wolfemaaan

Inactive member

5y 69,650 1,495

Quoted from J85M:

What the hell are you posting here fore then? Wasting time man, go knock on his door and ask!

I need a contract first so he can grant his and the McFly family’s permission to allow Deeproot to make the pin

Who actually owns the BTTF license anyway? Disney?

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#2358 5 years ago
 
EDE

Ericpinballfan

Mod Magic!

8y 166K 10,434 7 1

Quoted from wolfemaaan:

Who actually owns the BTTF license anyway? Disney?

Universal Pictures/Amblin Spielberg.
And Micheal J Fox would still never sign over release of his rights, and Christopher Lloyd has also expressed no interest.

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#2359 5 years ago
 
???

Sinestro

Inactive member

Unknown

7y 59,400 2,410 1

Quoted from Ericpinballfan:

Universal Pictures/Amblin Spielberg.
And Micheal J Fox would still never sign over release of his rights, and Christopher Lloyd has also expressed no interest.

Michael J. Fox has said that his agent was responsible for keeping him off the backless on the old Data East game, and that he regretted it after the fact.

Christopher Lloyd licensed his image for the BTTF game, as well as Addams Family. Seems he's up for it as long as he's paid.

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#2360 5 years ago
 
DAV

adol75

Pinside member

US San Francisco, CA

5y 57,300 2,076 2

Quoted from Sinestro:

Michael J. Fox has said that his agent was responsible for keeping him off the backless on the old Data East game, and that he regretted it after the fact.
Christopher Lloyd licensed his image for the BTTF game, as well as Addams Family. Seems he's up for it as long as he's paid.

I didn't even know actors owned rights to the characters they play. I wonder if that's why on WOZ, Judy Garland is mentioned separately.

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#2361 5 years ago
 
JJZ

toyotaboy

RandOM Pinball

US Allyn, WA

12y 184K 11,930 3 14

Quoted from Ericpinballfan:

And Micheal J Fox would still never sign over release of his rights, and Christopher Lloyd has also expressed no interest.

Then how did Zen studios manage to make their own version of it, it surely has both of their likeness. I think it's far easier today to get them to sign off than it was back then. Not like either of them are hot hollywood stars right now. I'm guessing (like others have said) that Robert is saying it's not available for purchase..... because it's already been bought. And I get it, if you have a license you can't talk about it until everything is approved and signed off, and I respect that. But if it IS BTTF, risk of trusting a new company be damned I would be hard pressed not to plop my money down before even playing it if the layout looks good.

Quoted from adol75:

I didn't even know actors owned rights to the characters they play. I wonder if that's why on WOZ, Judy Garland is mentioned separately.

It's true of pretty much anything. Demolition man had it's backglass revised because wesley snipes owned the rights to his likeness, and therefore could reject art. Just look at Heighway Pinball Aliens. There's a reason why Sigourney Weaver's likeness wasn't in it, either it was too expensive, or someone else already had the rights to her.

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#2362 5 years ago
 
C F

frolic

Pinside+ Frequent

11y 149K 9,809

Quoted from toyotaboy:

But if it IS BTTF, risk of trusting a new company be damned

The good news is they've got at least 5 other titles to deal with and ship and support before you have to worry about it. Not really a new company any longer.

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#2363 5 years ago
 
WUF

wolfemaaan

Inactive member

5y 69,650 1,495

The key to getting Micheal to sign over is the same way to get any star to do something they ordinarily would be against, and that is to donate to their charity. Michael has his own foundation for Parkinson’s and Spielberg who owns Amblin has Righteous Persons Foundation which a portion of each Pinbal Machine sold would go to those?

Anyway, we have a lot of Pins coming out so it’s all possible

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#2364 5 years ago
 
ABB

Aurich

Mods and Opinions

US Torrance, CA

11y 144K 23,395 3

Quoted from toyotaboy:

There's a reason why Sigourney Weaver's likeness wasn't in it, either it was too expensive, or someone else already had the rights to her.

It wasn't at at clear to me Fox couldn't have given us her rights, my impression was they simply weren't going to do that to their star, she had to sign off. We couldn't use the English actors because of legal reasons with their contracts, everyone else was fair game, no special permission needed to use their clips and voices.

I don't think Andrew ever got through to Sigourney, her agent probably said sure, for $100k or whatever, never asked her and that was that. But who knows, transparency wasn't a speciality inside of Heighway, so I'm just guessing based on things I was told.

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#2365 5 years ago
 
???

Sinestro

Inactive member

Unknown

7y 59,400 2,410 1

Quoted from adol75:

I didn't even know actors owned rights to the characters they play. I wonder if that's why on WOZ, Judy Garland is mentioned separately.

Not to their characters, but they own the rights to their likeness.

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#2366 5 years ago
 
ROB

Rdoyle1978

Pinside member

7y 117K 18,137 14 6 1

Quoted from Sinestro:

Not to their characters, but they own the rights to their likeness.

Correct. You can license a character, but unless you also license the actor's face, it needs to look like someone else. Funny though this doesn't work like that in voiceover acting. You can copy
Someone's voice all day long and you don't owe them a dime. (Which, to be clear, is a good thing)

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#2367 5 years ago
 
BSK

Bryan_Kelly

Pinside+ Frequent

US Lakeville, MN

12y 135K 8,484 8 1

Quoted from Borygard:

I definitely get the anger and hate, I personally lost a lot to the whole ordeal.
However, I don't think JPop should continue to be chastised so much. He definitely screwed up, and obviously has issues, but he's never thrown his hands up and said fuck it. He's continued to look for some kind of solution to get what he's promised done. He could have very easily just done what SkitB, Heighway, VonnieD, and Dutch have done and just walked away. He continued to try to get the games built though, to the point of getting two different, new pinball manufacturers involved.
--
Rob Anthony
Pinball Classics
http://LockWhenLit.com
Quality Board Work - In Home Service
314-766-4587

Sorry, Rob, but the way I see it, the Deeproot thing is nothing but a job. Nothing more, nothing less. What other job opportunities does jpop have? He needs to pay his bills and feed his family.

I don't feel he's trying to make anything right with past customers.

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#2368 5 years ago
 
CBM

spfxted

Pinside member

US Saddle River, NJ

12y 147K 24,659 4 9

Quoted from Rdoyle1978:

Funny though this doesn't work like that in voiceover acting. You can copy
Someone's voice all day long and you don't owe them a dime. (Which, to be clear, is a good thing)

Not entirely true. A radio commercial was run here with an Arnold impersonator. They had to remove it.

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#2369 5 years ago
 
ROB

Borygard

LockWhenLit.com

US St Louis, MO

11y 90,050 2,915

Quoted from Bryan_Kelly:

Sorry, Rob, but the way I see it, the Deeproot thing is nothing but a job. Nothing more, nothing less. What other job opportunities does jpop have? He needs to pay his bills and feed his family.
I don't feel he's trying to make anything right with past customers.

I think you're missing most of the story then Bryan. JPop got American Pinball to build Magic Girl. Deeproot has contracted with many JPop customers to make them whole on their game deposits. Deeproot is likely building Magic Girl, RAZA, AIW, and others, likely with the system JPop developed.

I don't see how anyone could objectively look at everything and conclude he did nothing but simply took a job.

--
Rob Anthony
Pinball Classics
http://LockWhenLit.com
Quality Board Work - In Home Service
borygard at gmail dot com

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#2370 5 years ago
 
BSK

Bryan_Kelly

Pinside+ Frequent

US Lakeville, MN

12y 135K 8,484 8 1

Quoted from Borygard:

I think you're missing most of the story then Bryan. JPop got American Pinball to build Magic Girl. Deeproot has contracted with many JPop customers to make them whole on their game deposits. Deeproot is likely building Magic Girl, RAZA, AIW, and others, likely with the system JPop developed.
I don't see how anyone could objectively look at everything and conclude he did nothing but simply took a job.
--
Rob Anthony
Pinball Classics
http://LockWhenLit.com
Quality Board Work - In Home Service
borygard at gmail dot com

We shall agree to disagree, Rob.

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#2371 5 years ago
 
STK

flynnibus

Pinside+ Frequent

11y 134K 13,220

Quoted from Rdoyle1978:

Correct. You can license a character, but unless you also license the actor's face, it needs to look like someone else. Funny though this doesn't work like that in voiceover acting. You can copy
Someone's voice all day long and you don't owe them a dime. (Which, to be clear, is a good thing)

Usually For parody with limits... but not to simply copy and infer endorsement. In most areas their voice is still covered by right of publicity and copyright.

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#2372 5 years ago
 
ROB

Rdoyle1978

Pinside member

7y 117K 18,137 14 6 1

Quoted from spfxted:

Not entirely true. A radio commercial was run here with an Arnold impersonator. They had to remove it.

Arnold is notoriously protective of his voice - and he has the money to make problems for whomever is mimicking him. The legal part is not the voice itself, but the idea that Arnold himself may have been misconstrued as endorsing the product is what was legally defendable.

Also, his voice and accent taken together is so distinctive that it would be easier to make the case that people would be confused it was actually him, vs say Don LaFontaine (“in a world...”), who was and still is constantly mimicked when he was alive

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#2373 5 years ago
 
ROB

Rdoyle1978

Pinside member

7y 117K 18,137 14 6 1

Quoted from flynnibus:

Usually For parody with limits... but not to simply copy and infer endorsement. In most areas their voice is still covered by right of publicity and copyright.

It is exclusively that endorsement may be misconstrued. Voice is not protected by trademark or likeness rights at all. I’ve done tons of soundalike ads and other gigs that bear no risk. Half of voice acting is copying people’s voices in the first place!

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#2374 5 years ago
 
HAZ

hank527

Pinside+ Addict

13y 128K 5,422 248

Quoted from Borygard:

I definitely get the anger and hate, I personally lost a lot to the whole ordeal.
However, I don't think JPop should continue to be chastised so much. He definitely screwed up, and obviously has issues, but he's never thrown his hands up and said fuck it. He's continued to look for some kind of solution to get what he's promised done. He could have very easily just done what SkitB, Heighway, VonnieD, and Dutch have done and just walked away. He continued to try to get the games built though, to the point of getting two different, new pinball manufacturers involved.
--
Rob Anthony
Pinball Classics
http://LockWhenLit.com
Quality Board Work - In Home Service
314-766-4587

What? He never admitted he was wrong or apologized for any of it.

He should not be working and I will not buy anything from deep root with his name on it. F him and his noodling and crappy persona.

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#2375 5 years ago
 
DAV

adol75

Pinside member

US San Francisco, CA

5y 57,300 2,076 2

Quoted from hank527:

What? He never admitted he was wrong or apologized for any of it.
He should not be working and I will not buy anything from deep root with his name on it. F him and his noodling and crappy persona.

I’m not a fan of his games to begin with, so that sorts out my choices without needing to get into moral values !

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#2376 5 years ago
 
STK

flynnibus

Pinside+ Frequent

11y 134K 13,220

Quoted from Rdoyle1978:

It is exclusively that endorsement may be misconstrued. Voice is not protected by trademark or likeness rights at all. I’ve done tons of soundalike ads and other gigs that bear no risk. Half of voice acting is copying people’s voices in the first place!

Again, these laws can vary by state.

In california for instance, voice IS explicitly named in the right to publicity laws. Specifically:
"(a) Any person who knowingly uses another's name, voice, signature, photograph, or likeness, in any manner, on or in products, merchandise, or goods, or for purposes of advertising or selling, or soliciting purchases of, products, merchandise, goods or services, without such person's prior consent, or, in the case of a minor, the prior consent of his parent or legal guardian, shall be liable for any damages sustained by the person or persons injured as a result thereof."

Generally people tell you to be cautious... as the likeness and risk of confusion leads to risk of liability. https://www.voiceoverxtra.com/article.htm?id=q24we4bv

Just because you've done it and not been challenged doesn't necessarily make it legal. The matter is very much a regional one.

The matter of film characters adds other dimensions as you are typically mimic'ing the character, not a person.. so the likeness is that of the character. The rights the actor has to the character's use and likeness will vary based on their contract... but pretty much since the 80s actors have rights that prevent the studios from requiring them to blanket give away their control.

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#2377 5 years ago
 
JJP

PoppyCock

Pinside member

US Elkton, MD

11y 37,650 220 6 6

anyone from the zidware fiasco get any updates from deeproot? I'm not involved thank god but a friend of mine that got burned by jpop says he can't even get any response from deeproot now. Anyone hear anything from them lately? They are on the hook with these people in June or July right? Seems like an update should be coming to these poor souls.

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#2378 5 years ago
 
CJS

HeavyMetalBalls

Inactive member

US Corpus Christi, TX

7y 29,550 71 8

Quoted from PoppyCock:

anyone from the zidware fiasco get any updates from deeproot? I'm not involved thank god but a friend of mine that got burned by jpop says he can't even get any response from deeproot now. Anyone hear anything from them lately? They are on the hook with these people in June or July right? Seems like an update should be coming to these poor souls.

Yesterday Kaneda talked a little bit about deeproot. He said a buddy of his has seen what's going on at deeproot and when they launch it's gonna blow everything out of the park.

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#2379 5 years ago
 
DMM

DS_Nadine

Pinside member

DE Düsseldorf

8y 72,800 4,104 2

Quoted from HeavyMetalBalls:

Yesterday Kaneda talked a little bit about deeproot. He said a buddy of his has seen what's going on at deeproot and when they launch it's gonna blow everything out of the park.

I hope they don't land on the street and get run over by a car.

Edit:
Adressing the downvotes: Why do you wish any people physical harm? Shame on you!

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#2380 5 years ago
 
RON

Rondogg

Pinside member

11y 109K 3,341

Thing is, based on their $ burn rate, even an amazing product delivery may not keep them afloat. In my estimation the pinball hobby is definitely still growing but not at a rate fast enough to absorb 5 new titles at once, with 5+ other manufacturers also releasing titles this year.

So far, pinball growth has seemed organic and sustainable.

I hope it works!

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#2381 5 years ago
 
LRP

lpeters82

Pinside+ Frequent

12y 132K 5,285 8

Quoted from HeavyMetalBalls:

Yesterday Kaneda talked a little bit about deeproot. He said a buddy of his has seen what's going on at deeproot and when they launch it's gonna blow everything out of the park.

Capture (resized).JPGCapture (resized).JPG

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#2382 5 years ago
 
CJS

HeavyMetalBalls

Inactive member

US Corpus Christi, TX

7y 29,550 71 8

Haha, great response... Jeff from twip basically said the same thing. I guess that's all u can say when u sign an NDA

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#2383 5 years ago
 
C F

frolic

Pinside+ Frequent

11y 149K 9,809

Quoted from HeavyMetalBalls:

Yesterday Kaneda talked a little bit about deeproot. He said a buddy of his has seen what's going on at deeproot and when they launch it's gonna blow everything out of the park.

Will there ever be a jump again the size of Pinball2000 or even WOZ? I don't see how anything following the rules of mechanical pinball will be anything more than evolutionary at this point. Maybe a cool new toy, or something.

And then there's that nagging issue about needing to find thousands of new buyers, immediately.

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#2384 5 years ago
OP
 
TWP

pin2d

Silverball Swag

US Indianapolis, IN

9y 123K 1,710

Quoted from HeavyMetalBalls:

Haha, great response... Jeff from twip basically said the same thing. I guess that's all u can say when u sign an NDA

I'm not under NDA (just FYI).

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#2385 5 years ago
 
DRM

iceman44

Pinside+ Pro!

US Boerne, TX

13y 162K 26,878 28 49

Quoted from Rondogg:

Thing is, based on their $ burn rate, even an amazing product delivery may not keep them afloat. In my estimation the pinball hobby is definitely still growing but not at a rate fast enough to absorb 5 new titles at once, with 5+ other manufacturers also releasing titles this year.
So far, pinball growth has seemed organic and sustainable.
I hope it works!

I totally agree with this. I mean as you are modeling this thing out month to month, with that burn rate, how many pins would they have to sell and deliver to get to breakeven? There is already a shitload of sunk costs with zero revenue.

Can they even produce enough to meet that number in the time period they need to? Either way its going to be a long haul and hopefully a successful one.

The demand has to be there first off. Man i'm excited about the possibilities but i'm not sure how the math adds up here.

Plus, the investors are expecting a certain ROI.

They are currently hiring "assemblers" here in the area so I'm assuming we will find out shortly.

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#2386 5 years ago
 
DWF

Chalkey

Pinside+ Frequent

US Chesterfield, VA

6y 69,550 2,971 18

If you're not under NDA and you're media why would you not report what's going on? Especially with the amount of speculation?

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#2387 5 years ago
OP
 
TWP

pin2d

Silverball Swag

US Indianapolis, IN

9y 123K 1,710

Quoted from Chalkey:

If you're not under NDA and you're media why would you not report what's going on? Especially with the amount of speculation?

I try to work with all manufacturers as much as they will let me. If I'm shown something privately that they don't want public, I don't share it of course.

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#2388 5 years ago
 
DAV

adol75

Pinside member

US San Francisco, CA

5y 57,300 2,076 2

OP
Quoted from pin2d:

I try to work with all manufacturers as much as they will let me. If I'm shown something privately that they don't want public, I don't share it of course.

It's great you've managed to build a good trust relationship with them so they would disclose infos to you without getting you to sign an NDA. It's not so common nowadays.

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#2389 5 years ago
 
MAC

frankmac

Pinside+ Frequent

9y 154K 5,098 4

Deeproot needs to crash TPF!

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#2390 5 years ago
 
TMB

Roostking

Pinside+ Addict

10y 106K 8,563 2

Quoted from DS_Nadine:

I hope they don't land on the street and get run over by a car.
Edit:
Adressing the downvotes: Why do you wish any people physical harm? Shame on you!

Why would you wish deeproot to fail?

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#2391 5 years ago
 
DWF

Chalkey

Pinside+ Frequent

US Chesterfield, VA

6y 69,550 2,971 18

Them showing you, pinball media, things that they legitimately don't want to get out without an NDA. Then you not reporting anything. The mind reels.

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#2392 5 years ago
 
TMB

Roostking

Pinside+ Addict

10y 106K 8,563 2

Quoted from Chalkey:

Them showing you, pinball media, things that they legitimately don't want to get out without an NDA. Then you not reporting anything. The mind reels.

Exactly. If you cant say anything, then who cares.

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#2393 5 years ago
 
NAD

Bublehead

Pinside member

US San Tan Valley, AZ

8y 92,300 4,441 10

Maybe it’s a Reverse-Reverse Psychology Guerrilla marketing campaign?... Say you are going to do a big reveal at TPF... then pull out of TPF early, but then crash it with 5 servings of pinball machine goodness and promise that they are ready to start rolling out of the quad (?), just pick any one of 5 titles, and your machine should be delivered in 4 to 6 weeks from date of order. Now that might generate some sales. If they have just a booth with their Logo and a bunch of designers and marketing types hanging out saying “everthing is awesome!” handing out Deeproot keychains, then that is probably not going to cut it.

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#2394 5 years ago
 
TMB

Roostking

Pinside+ Addict

10y 106K 8,563 2

Quoted from Bublehead:

Maybe it’s a Reverse-Reverse Psychology Guerrilla marketing campaign?... Say you are going to do a big reveal at TPF... then pull out of TPF early, but then crash it with 5 servings of pinball machine goodness and promise that they are ready to start rolling out of the quad (?), just pick any one of 5 titles, and your machine should be delivered in 4 to 6 weeks from date of order. Now that might generate some sales. If they have just a booth with their Logo and a bunch of designers and marketing types hanging out saying “everthing is awesome!” handing out Deeproot keychains, then that is probably not going to cut it.

That would be badass, although you can't say guerilla anymore. Its racist apparently.

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#2395 5 years ago
 
NAD

Bublehead

Pinside member

US San Tan Valley, AZ

8y 92,300 4,441 10

Quoted from Roostking:

Its racist apparently

Well thats a new one on me... apparently people are confusing a warfare and marketing tactic with a species of primates whose name sounds somewhat similar. I don’t think you can make that mistake in print, but you can never be too sure. But then again, what word could we use instead??

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#2396 5 years ago
 
WUF

wolfemaaan

Inactive member

5y 69,650 1,495

OP
Quoted from pin2d:

I try to work with all manufacturers as much as they will let me. If I'm shown something privately that they don't want public, I don't share it of course.

So you’re saying you saw something amazing you can’t tell us about? Or nothing to see, move along?

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#2397 5 years ago
 
LTD

ltd73

Pinside+ Frequent

9y 65,600 382 11 19 1

The TPF schedule has been released and no Deeproot panel at all. I find it fishy that these guys live down the road and they're not scheduled to do a "meet the crew" seminar like they did at Expo. None of them are scheduled to do ANY speaking at all. I sense an out of the box marketing reveal coming.

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#2398 5 years ago
 
GWG

BrewinBombers

Pinside member

8y 62,050 853 1 44

Someone who thinks "guerrilla warfare" is racist doesn't know the etymology of the word or understand that guerrilla and gorilla are different words. Not political, just facts.

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#2399 5 years ago
 
LTG

LTG

Pinside member

US Hopkins, MN

12y 191K 56,942 24 7

Quoted from ltd73:

The TPF schedule has been released and no Deeproot panel at all. I find it fishy that these guys live down the road and they're not scheduled to do a "meet the crew" seminar like they did at Expo.

According to a post on Pinside, they are still supporting the TPF show. Which I would think means sponsor or something, they aren't stopping that.

LTG : )

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#2400 5 years ago
 
BJ.

Brijam

Inactive member

Unknown

9y 58,300 1,093 26 23

Quoted from iceman44:

I totally agree with this. I mean as you are modeling this thing out month to month, with that burn rate, how many pins would they have to sell and deliver to get to breakeven? There is already a shitload of sunk costs with zero revenue.

If their burn rate is $9mm per year (as was posted a few months ago) and their net profit is $2,500 per pin, their breakeven is about 10 pins a day every day of the year, or about 14 pins a day running their factory 5 days a week with a two week holiday.

Of course that $2,500 net is pure speculation on my part.

Anyway, that's for breakeven at the current run rate.

Keep in mind that they may not have to pay their investors back for years if their play is to go public or be acquired.

Quoted from iceman44:

Can they even produce enough to meet that number in the time period they need to? Either way its going to be a long haul and hopefully a successful one.

I don't know. What kind of volume does Stern do per day? JJP? American? Does anyone know that can say?

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