This thread is almost worth the burning cash on RAZA...almost.
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:It does look like WYWH! that's from a video called "California" by a band Wax from the 90s
You are correct sir. Filmed by the Spike Jonze in Hollywood around the corner for Toi
Quoted from thechakapakuni:You are correct sir. Filmed by the Spike Jonze in Hollywood around the corner for Toi
Oh dang, I used to go to Toi so much.
Quoted from Rarehero:Oh dang, I used to go to Toi so much.
Right? Such a cool rock n roll spot. Man I’m hungry now, might need to order
Quoted from thechakapakuni:Here’s the full video of Ben running after Dennis lit him up
Let's be friendly. Both Ben & Dennis have made great contributions to pinball
Quoted from Stuieb84:Let's be friendly. Both Ben & Dennis have made great contributions to pinball
It's just a little humor.
Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:He has to cinch it higher every year because that’s the only way he can cover his ass.
Lucky for me I found my spelling mistake before you quoting me. Yikes, I really suck sometimes.
Quoted from EalaDubhSidhe:Robert buying Pinball Life would have hurt.
Was that an attempt at 'revenge' because Spooky and Gerry blew him off?
Thank God he didn't buy Spooky, Pinball Life etc, because they would now be subsumed into the SEC case and be dissolved as assets, thereby lost to the pinball community
This is how dangerous alleged fraudsters like Dilbert, I mean Robert, are, and pinball is already a tiny industry, so doesn't need to be made even smaller by predatory sharks like him.
Quoted from TreyBo69:Reminded me of a classic show
[quoted image]
Yes, I see a lot of similarities of RM with the amoral, decadent, womanizing CEO's son (who inherits the company) in IT Crowd. Matt Berry rocks.
"Matt Berry as Douglas Reynholm (series 2 recurring, 3–4, special main cast), Denholm's womanising son, who inherits Reynholm Industries in series 2 when his father jumps out of a window."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_IT_Crowd
cb89e3e6a3075d2c5f17d2daca81626a (resized).pngposter,504x498,f8f8f8-pad,600x600,f8f8f8.u2 (resized).jpgQuoted from Mr68:I recently paid non-refundable, pre-order money to Haggis in Australia for a Mermaid edition of Fathom. ...During Covid.
Discuss!
Well, since you asked...
I personally think it was unwise and I don't understand why so many people dove in head first, and I was pretty surprised at the complete lack of skepticism that seems to surround that project after what we've seen over the years.
Not saying anything about Haggis, not dissing them or slamming them or predicting people lose their money; I'm very unfamiliar with them beyond their dumb "hammer test" videos.
I'll just say I wish everybody luck, and I'm glad it's their money and not mine, and leave it at that. That's pretty much how I view all of these amateur pre-order projects at launch, and so far, unlike many others, I have yet to lose any money or been forced to take a 5-10 year rollercoaster ride I didn't ask for on this type of project so I think I'm doing something right.
Quoted from Pinballs:Thank God he didn't buy Spooky, Pinball Life etc, because they would now be subsumed into the SEC case and be dissolved as assets, thereby lost to the pinball community
This is how dangerous alleged fraudsters like Dilbert, I mean Robert, are, and pinball is already a tiny industry, so doesn't need to be made even smaller by predatory sharks like him.
When you watch "Things That Go Bump in the Night : The Spooky Pinball Story" and in light of this fiasco, you truly appreciate the hardships the Emery family went through to get to where they are today. Angel on their shoulder or something.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:I personally think it was unwise and I don't understand why so many people dove in head first, and I was pretty surprised at the complete lack of skepticism that seems to surround that project after what we've seen over the years.
Not saying anything about Haggis, not dissing them or slamming them or predicting people lose their money; I'm very unfamiliar with them beyond their dumb "hammer test" videos.
I'll just say I wish everybody luck, and I'm glad it's their money and not mine, and leave it at that. That's pretty much how I view all of these amateur pre-order projects at launch, and so far, unlike others, I have yet to lose any money on this type of project.
Quoted from clempo:Yes... without a license to Goonies.
They game was never called Goonies. They announced "Hey you guys" which is in line with "Food Truck"
Quoted from Mr68:I recently paid non-refundable, pre-order money to Haggis in Australia for a Mermaid edition of Fathom. ...During Covid.
Discuss!
Quoted from CrazyLevi:Well, since you asked...
I personally think it was unwise and I don't understand why so many people dove in head first, and I was pretty surprised at the complete lack of skepticism that seems to surround that project after what we've seen over the years.
Not saying anything about Haggis, not dissing them or slamming them or predicting people lose their money; I'm very unfamiliar with them beyond their dumb "hammer test" videos.
I'll just say I wish everybody luck, and I'm glad it's their money and not mine, and leave it at that. That's pretty much how I view all of these amateur pre-order projects at launch, and so far, unlike many others, I have yet to lose any money or been forced to take a 5-10 year rollercoaster ride I didn't ask for on this type of project so I think I'm doing something right.
Hagis has built like what …. 5 pinball machines ? Skepticism is warranted even if they are nice guys and seem to know what they are doing. Running a financially viable business is hard. And I don’t throw rocks here. I put a deposit down on Alien part 2 when it was a no more than a kiosk flyer. I regret that and won’t do so again (even if I know Cointaker who holds the funds is on the up and up). These startups seem to always overpromise and underdeliver. I get why they would want preorders to solidify volume parts discounts and plan effort, but that’s their problem not mine. Well … strictly speaking it now is my problem since 8 months post deposit still no Alien. This isn’t how businesses should operate and I won’t support it any more even if it forces me to mostly buy Sterns. At least I know when money is paid to Stern product will ship and not like in 12-18 months (or in case of DR never)
Quoted from pookycade:Hagis has built like what …. 5 pinball machines ? Skepticism is warranted even if they are nice guys and seem to know what they are doing. Running a financially viable business is hard. And I don’t throw rocks here. I put a deposit down on Alien part 2 when it was a no more than a kiosk flyer. I regret that and won’t do so again (even if I know Cointaker who holds the funds is on the up and up). These startups seem to always overpromise and underdeliver. I get why they would want preorders to solidify volume parts discounts and plan effort, but that’s their problem not mine. Well … strictly speaking it now is my problem since 8 months post deposit still no Alien. This isn’t how businesses should operate and I won’t support it any more even if it forces me to mostly buy Sterns. At least I know when money is paid to Stern product will ship and not like in 12-18 months (or in case of DR never)
Pretty sure they've built a lot more than 5 now. I think something like 50 celts games have been built. And they've actually shown their factory and the space is almost entirely taken up with manufacturing equipment and workspace. A far cry from derproot.
Well we can judge as they go.
But with deeproot red flag #1 should have been Jpop. Even if he wasn't as involved as some thought it still shows an ASTONISHING lack of good judgment skills from Bobby Boy.
He started a race 100 feet behind the starting line.
Quoted from DakotaMike:Pretty sure they've built a lot more than 5 now. I think something like 50 celts games have been built. And they've actually shown their factory and the space is almost entirely taken up with manufacturing equipment and space. A far cry from derproot.
Oh want to be 100 % clear I am NOT equating them to DR in any way whatsoever. Not even in the same class at all. They have done everything right so far. Except for one thing …. Taking money for products that don’t exist but they promise to deliver at some point in the future. Same for Spooky, same for JJP initially. It’s just a terrible practice. Few other industries can get away with this. At the end of the day it’s a qualified bet from users that good things will happen. I can believe all I want good things will happen with Spooky and Hagis and whomever. And they all have way more credibility than DR. They probably will. But it’s still a bet. And this is for buying a product not investing in a stock. I as a consumer shouldn’t have to bet on getting your product. I used to do Kickstarters too. Even for companies with shipping product disasters have happened to me. No more.
Quoted from pookycade:Oh want to be 100 % clear I am NOT equating them to DR in any way whatsoever. Not even in the same class at all. They have done everything right so far. Except for one thing …. Taking money for products that don’t exist but they promise to deliver at some point in the future. Same for Spooky, same for JJP initially. It’s just a terrible practice. Few other industries can get away with this. At the end of the day it’s a qualified bet from users that good things will happen. I can believe all I want good things will happen with Spooky and Hagis and whomever. And they all have way more credibility than DR. They probably will. But it’s still a bet. And this is for buying a product not investing in a stock. I as a consumer shouldn’t have to bet on getting your product. I used to do Kickstarters too. Even for companies with shipping product disasters have happened to me. No more.
Quite frankly without investment startups have no choice. Even then a 1-2k deposit doesn't even cover have the parts.
Sad part was DR did have "investment" and they still did a pre-order. Why? Were they out of money? To gauge interest? For whom? The investors had no choice in the matter.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:Well, since you asked...
I personally think it was unwise and I don't understand why so many people dove in head first, and I was pretty surprised at the complete lack of skepticism that seems to surround that project after what we've seen over the years.
Not saying anything about Haggis, not dissing them or slamming them or predicting people lose their money; I'm very unfamiliar with them beyond their dumb "hammer test" videos.
I'll just say I wish everybody luck, and I'm glad it's their money and not mine, and leave it at that. That's pretty much how I view all of these amateur pre-order projects at launch, and so far, unlike many others, I have yet to lose any money or been forced to take a 5-10 year rollercoaster ride I didn't ask for on this type of project so I think I'm doing something right.
Yep, no argument. But I saw value in Fathom 2.0 and decided to take the chance. I would detail my reason but I know I would begin to sound just the the guys in the RAZA pre-order thread.
But the larger point I was trying to make is that pre-order isn't dead. People will be faced with these choices in the future and we all need to be cautious and stay within our comfort zone. I wasn't in on RAZA but it is a great example of what to watchout for and avoid.
Also, please note that I'm not trying to convince anyone with overconfidence, acting smug, name calling, capital letters or using cowboy emojis'.
JPOP could be managed in the future. You would have to set short term goals & make sure he stays focused. After all the failures he has had since the glory days finishing with the closing of WMS. You would think that he will have to drastically change & take a lower job to move forward. He has some good ideas, along with wacky & poor ones. That is why he has continued dreaming the last 20 years.
There is likely some good that will come out of this failure with Deeproot. Bad to throw people under the bus when you are just hoping for a paying job. Lots of talented people that hopefully we will see what they were working on.
All new starts & even the big players can go under. Pinball Manufacturing is HARD, so is getting good financial backing.
Quoted from greatwichjohn:JPOP could be managed in the future. You would have to set short term goals & make sure he stays focused.
Quoted from greatwichjohn:JPOP could be managed in the future. You would have to set short term goals & make sure he stays focused. After all the failures he has had since the glory days finishing with the closing of WMS. You would think that he will have to drastically change & take a lower job to move forward. He has some good ideas, along with wacky & poor ones. That is why he has continued dreaming the last 20 years.
There is likely some good that will come out of this failure with Deeproot. Bad to throw people under the bus when you are just hoping for a paying job. Lots of talented people that hopefully we will see what they were working on.
All new starts & even the big players can go under. Pinball Manufacturing is HARD, so is getting good financial backing.
Maybe you should step up to the plate and try to manage him. You have his email and contact info. I’m SURE it will all work out.
Quoted from greatwichjohn:JPOP could be managed in the future. You would have to set short term goals & make sure he stays focused. After all the failures he has had since the glory days finishing with the closing of WMS. You would think that he will have to drastically change & take a lower job to move forward. He has some good ideas, along with wacky & poor ones. That is why he has continued dreaming the last 20 years.
There is likely some good that will come out of this failure with Deeproot. Bad to throw people under the bus when you are just hoping for a paying job. Lots of talented people that hopefully we will see what they were working on.
All new starts & even the big players can go under. Pinball Manufacturing is HARD, so is getting good financial backing.
Umm he stole money from many. Why touch him? He’s toxic. F Jpop and F managing a guy who stole.
Why don’t you go manage a serial killer as maybe they could still do something good.
Jpop stole from me and I’m not okay with it.
Quoted from greatwichjohn:JPOP could be managed in the future.
Dude. Over a FUCKING DECADE & he hasn’t been able to produce squat. What the F is wrong with you? He’s POISON, proven time and time again he’s a useless vampire. Sorry Sandwich, you’ve sealed it - any pinball project YOU are involved with shall now be 100% AVOIDED, as you’ve now proven that your sensibilities are inept & cannot be trusted. Tell the secret people you’re working with that you just F’d them.
:doh:You Forgot: NOT buying machines at auctions. I
Could’ve used that advice a while back
Quoted from CrazyLevi:Well, since you asked...
I personally think it was unwise and I don't understand why so many people dove in head first, and I was pretty surprised at the complete lack of skepticism that seems to surround that project after what we've seen over the years.
Not saying anything about Haggis, not dissing them or slamming them or predicting people lose their money; I'm very unfamiliar with them beyond their dumb "hammer test" videos.
I'll just say I wish everybody luck, and I'm glad it's their money and not mine, and leave it at that. That's pretty much how I view all of these amateur pre-order projects at launch, and so far, unlike many others, I have yet to lose any money or been forced to take a 5-10 year rollercoaster ride I didn't ask for on this type of project so I think I'm doing something right.
Quoted from greatwichjohn:JPOP could be managed in the future. You would have to set short term goals & make sure he stays focused. After all the failures he has had since the glory days finishing with the closing of WMS. You would think that he will have to drastically change & take a lower job to move forward. He has some good ideas, along with wacky & poor ones. That is why he has continued dreaming the last 20 years.
There is likely some good that will come out of this failure with Deeproot. Bad to throw people under the bus when you are just hoping for a paying job. Lots of talented people that hopefully we will see what they were working on.
All new starts & even the big players can go under. Pinball Manufacturing is HARD, so is getting good financial backing.
After all the destruction of JPop, why bother giving him another chance (I have lost count how many he has been given)? From a marketing perspective, his name is synonymous with bad events in pinball. There are plenty of creative home-brew pinball designers that don't have such baggage.
Quoted from greatwichjohn:JPOP could be managed in the future. You would have to set short term goals & make sure he stays focused. After all the failures he has had since the glory days finishing with the closing of WMS. You would think that he will have to drastically change & take a lower job to move forward. He has some good ideas, along with wacky & poor ones. That is why he has continued dreaming the last 20 years.
There is likely some good that will come out of this failure with Deeproot. Bad to throw people under the bus when you are just hoping for a paying job. Lots of talented people that hopefully we will see what they were working on.
All new starts & even the big players can go under. Pinball Manufacturing is HARD, so is getting good financial backing.
Are you taking crazy pills???
John is unmanageable and what's the point? He's a hack and there's plenty of new better talent to draw from.
Let Robert keep him as a pet and stay FAR FAR away.
If you want to say something nice and optimistic, you should probably do it in the other thread to elevate their feelings
Kaneda mentioned American Pinball needs a art director like Jpop. There you go Dennis! Sage to sage advice
Quoted from SmallyBells:Kaneda mentioned American Pinball needs a art director like Jpop. There you go Dennis! Sage to sage advice
There’s better value in hiring an art director who’s actually an artist. Jpop doesn’t bring anything to the table that someone else couldn’t do 1000% better.
Someone linked to John’s old blog and it was a great read and insight into his “process” https://magicgirldev.wordpress.com/
I can see why Robert liked John. He spent a lot of time working on filing patents, documenting things for patents, and trademarking things like his version of diamond plate.
It’s also crazy how he bounces from random minor detail to other minor detail (while overlooking things like a shooter lane), reinventing a bunch of wheels, making things ready for production if he was making thousands and not a dozen units, and just an obsession with details the player wouldn’t see or care about. I was amused UL certs made an appearance and how John was an expert of the process
Dude is obsessed with magnets, how things used to be done back in the day, Python Anghelo, and playing up how innovative he is.
Learned a few random neat things, but it was mostly nonsense playing with mechs and pinning for the glory days.
I think art being finished was mainly because it’s the only thing John didn’t try to do himself.
Quoted from greatwichjohn:JPOP could be managed in the future. You would have to set short term goals & make sure he stays focused. After all the failures he has had since the glory days finishing with the closing of WMS. You would think that he will have to drastically change & take a lower job to move forward. He has some good ideas, along with wacky & poor ones. That is why he has continued dreaming the last 20 years.
There is likely some good that will come out of this failure with Deeproot. Bad to throw people under the bus when you are just hoping for a paying job. Lots of talented people that hopefully we will see what they were working on.
All new starts & even the big players can go under. Pinball Manufacturing is HARD, so is getting good financial backing.
Quoted from DennisNordman:Ben, you don't know what the F you are talking about. Why are you even here? Tell us about all the great games you have designed.
Lol.
Had to come back to toast that roasting! Very nice Dennis.
Turning on my awesome Whitewater and Elvira in honor of those glorious posts.
Quoted from TreyBo69:Someone linked to John’s old blog and it was a great read and insight into his “process” https://magicgirldev.wordpress.com/
I can see why Robert liked John. He spent a lot of time working on filing patents, documenting things for patents, and trademarking things like his version of diamond plate.
It’s also crazy how he bounces from random minor detail to other minor detail (while overlooking things like a shooter lane), reinventing a bunch of wheels, making things ready for production if he was making thousands and not a dozen units, and just an obsession with details the player wouldn’t see or care about. I was amused UL certs made an appearance and how John was an expert of the process
Dude is obsessed with magnets, how things used to be done back in the day, Python Anghelo, and playing up how innovative he is.
Learned a few random neat things, but it was mostly nonsense playing with mechs and pinning for the glory days.
I think art being finished was mainly because it’s the only thing John didn’t try to do himself.
JPop is the most accurate and patently decisive harbinger of doom to ever emerge from the chrysalis of Bally/Williams. He has that gift of the Midas touch of Shit. EVERYTHING he has touched since has turned to shit. And yet people clamor for more!?!? Some psychiatrist ought to hang a shingle on Pinside and give these people some discount mental help...
Quoted from greatwichjohn:JPOP could be managed in the future.
Quoted from Bublehead:JPop is the most accurate and patently decisive harbinger of doom to ever emerge from the chrysalis of Bally/Williams. He has that gift of the Midas touch of Shit. EVERYTHING he has touched since has turned to shit. And yet people clamor for more!?!? Some psychiatrist ought to hang a shingle on Pinside and give these people some discount mental help...
You can’t pin the failure of Deeproot on Jpop. Although his stink does fit well with Robert.
Bobby F Ed this thing up in EPIC fashion and I don’t care what lawyer he hires, the facts are NOT on his side and he’s in BIG trouble, the SEC, State Bar of Texas, and other civil and criminal litigation coming his way, as Jpop slithers off back to Chicago or wherever he’s going.
Quoted from iceman44:You can’t pin the failure of Deeproot on Jpop. Although his stink does fit well with Robert.
Bobby F Ed this thing up in EPIC fashion and I don’t care what lawyer he hires, the facts are NOT on his side and he’s in BIG trouble, as Jpop slithers off back to Chicago?
JPop is somewhat to blame. Put someone competent in charge and you can have a viable company. See American Pinball with JPop vs Joe Balcer.
Robert still did a lot of illegal things, but if he could have started bringing in some money by finishing a product and getting it built in a timely fashion, he could have kept spinning his Ponzi plates a lot longer.
Quoted from iceman44:You can’t pin the failure of Deeproot on Jpop. Although his stink does fit well with Robert.
Not pinning anything on him except the title of harbinger of doom... JPops involved? Destined for failure.
Is Ben crowing a bit too loud or taking too long a victory lap? Yeah, maybe. But those who warned us about RM deserve their moment.
Instead of criticizing Ben, maybe these people who worked for Deeproot, people like Dennis, who by working there gave an air of legitimacy to the con, should instead of crying woe about their years of payed work, take responsibility for being duped and helping dupe the community into buying these pins.
Talking about the machines designed that will never be made just serves to deflect responsibility and lead to these posts like, “Bu..buuut maybe someone can make those games?” People lost their retirements to RM and that’s the true tragedy in all of this. Hell, the RAZA buyers are more victims than people who can’t buy Dennis’ two shelved designs.
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